Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[James Saxe via Callers]

Mac McKeever wrote:

> It has been my experience that dancers with limited skills/ability  often do 
> not realize they are different from anyone else.  They assume that being lost 
> and confused during a dance is normal.
> 
> Finding a gentle way to bring this to their attention might be a good way to 
> start

and Ron Blechner replied:

> Mac, suggestions on how?

JD Erskine meanwhile offered this comment:

> If our ... dancer in question is lumbering, stiff, not moving much, and 
> can/may move, then assisting him in that might help make it easier to direct 
> him more in the normal flow of the dance.
> 
> To do more certainly would be best with permission, awareness of offered 
> assistance.

to which Ron similarly replied:

> I'd love to hear suggestions on how to approach a dancer like the one in 
> question, and broach the subject.

So far I haven't seen anyone respond to Ron's request for
suggestions about opening such a potentially delicate
conversation.

I don't have a fully-developed suggestion either, but I have what
may be the germ of an idea: Perhaps the thing to do would be to
start by asking the person a question.  I'll illustrate with a
story.

When I was a new square and contra dancer, I was quite mystified
about just what to do with my feet during a swing.  I remember
trying to watch other dancers' feet when they were swinging and
I was inactive, and I remember not being able to figure it
out--though it seems completely obvious when I watch now.  In
case anyone's wondering, the local dances where I lived at the
time didn't normally include an official new dancers'
workshop/lesson/orientation.  The visiting caller at my very
first trad dance *did* offer some specific instruction on
swinging, but I somehow missed out on it for reasons I won't go
into now.

Anyway, after I'd been going to dances for maybe three or four
months and staggering/stumbling/bumbling through all the swings,
there was some kind of break at a dance one day, and the partner
I'd just danced with took the opportunity to ask me a question
that I remember as something like, "Was that a one-step [perhaps


she actually said "buzz-step"] or a two-step swing you were 

   
doing?" just as if she'd noticed something interesting about my
swing and wanted me to teach her what I had been doing.  I said
that I had no idea what I was supposed to do (which, in
retrospect, she must obviously have already known),  She offered


to teach me.  And that was when I first learned to do a buzz-step   

 
swing, very bouncily at first, then gradually smoothing out over
the next few weeks and months.

Years later, after moving across the country, I was back visiting
my former city and I saw that same woman at a dance.  I asked her
about the conversation I've just described.  She didn't remember
the details, but she agreed with my guess that her question had
probably been a ploy to find out whether I was open to instruction.

A similar sort of ploy would be to ask someone for ideas on how
to teach beginning dancers about such-and-such, naming a topic
that the person you're addressing understands only vaguely if at
all.

Of course, when my friend asked me that ploy question years
ago, she couldn't have known for sure that my response would be
to admit ignorance and seek instruction.  I might, for all she
knew, have responded defensively or even confrontationally (but
I think she could reasonably have expected  my response to be
less emotionally charged than if she had bluntly asked something
like "Do you realize that your swings are really awkward?").  Or
if I were vaguely aware of my lack of skill but also strongly in
denial about it, I might have given an evasive answer accompanied
by nervous laughter: "Well, we all have our own personal styles,
don't we?  Heh, heh, heh."

--Jim

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller

[George Mercer via Callers]

This is only marginally relevant, but when demonstrating a move I often
will take the newest dancers I can and use them as my demonstrators --
walking them through the move while assuring them they can do it.  I also
throw in little hints like "You're not going to remember everything, so
don't bother," "You don't have to be perfect," and "You'll find you're
learning as you go." I also tell new dancers on the floor, "just walk." We
make everything too damned complicated.  Of course, when I'm dancing, I
scream when I make a mistake. It tends to relieve pressure on others. When
I'm on the mic, I repeatedly ask experienced dancers to give hints and nods
and do a lot of pointing.  It doesn't work for every situation, but 
Rely on the other dancers to help and ask them to ensure evryone has a
chance on the floor. As I said, it's only tangentially useful.


On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 9:03 PM, April Blum via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Two more suggestions. At some dances I have called, I found that saying
> "end the swing and face across" a bit early solved the late-for-the-next
> move issues. And sometimes repeatedly cuing at B1, where the music is often
> audibly different AND where there is often some noticeable move starting,
> can also help. On Mar 7, 2017 9:40 AM, Martha Wild via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > As one other caller mentioned - what I do as a caller is avoid looking
> at that dancer AT ALL. That confuses me, and I will miscall if I get to
> caught up in what is happening there. What I do is look ASAP for the
> dancers who are doing the moves smoothly and well, and I call to them,
> making sure I call clearly at the start of the four beats before each move
> will start, and not at the two beats before that I might often use, to give
> a little extra time for the person to react. If there is a four in line
> down the hall, I will call for the turn also on beat five of the phrase
> before (just as above, just saying it differently) ensuring that they turn
> around and head back in time to cast off or do whatever needs to be done in
> time for the next move. If I call carefully and steadily and clearly at the
> appropriate time for a few times through the dance to the experienced
> dancers, I generally find that once I look at the problem area, it has
> resolved. Also - I don’t vary or shorten my calls, as I might otherwise,
> and I might say Neighbor balance and swing, or With the next couple star
> left - telling them who to do it with and what, or face across, right and
> left through - which way to face etc. especially on any figure that might
> be confusing.
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 6, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >>
> > Inspired by Marie's other thread, I wonder what tools callers use when
> they encounter a dance floor with such a dancer, especially if there is
> only one who is having so much difficulty but who leaves confused dancers
> in their wake. Do you call to that dancer? Do you call earlier? Do you
> adjust your program accordingly? Something else?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Alex
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > ___
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> > Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
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> >
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Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller

[April Blum via Callers]

Two more suggestions. At some dances I have called, I found that saying "end 
the swing and face across" a bit early solved the late-for-the-next move 
issues. And sometimes repeatedly cuing at B1, where the music is often audibly 
different AND where there is often some noticeable move starting, can also 
help. On Mar 7, 2017 9:40 AM, Martha Wild via Callers 
 wrote:
>
> As one other caller mentioned - what I do as a caller is avoid looking at 
> that dancer AT ALL. That confuses me, and I will miscall if I get to caught 
> up in what is happening there. What I do is look ASAP for the dancers who are 
> doing the moves smoothly and well, and I call to them, making sure I call 
> clearly at the start of the four beats before each move will start, and not 
> at the two beats before that I might often use, to give a little extra time 
> for the person to react. If there is a four in line down the hall, I will 
> call for the turn also on beat five of the phrase before (just as above, just 
> saying it differently) ensuring that they turn around and head back in time 
> to cast off or do whatever needs to be done in time for the next move. If I 
> call carefully and steadily and clearly at the appropriate time for a few 
> times through the dance to the experienced dancers, I generally find that 
> once I look at the problem area, it has resolved. Also - I don’t vary or 
> shorten my calls, as I might otherwise, and I might say Neighbor balance and 
> swing, or With the next couple star left - telling them who to do it with and 
> what, or face across, right and left through - which way to face etc. 
> especially on any figure that might be confusing. 
>
>
>> On Mar 6, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>>
> Inspired by Marie's other thread, I wonder what tools callers use when they 
> encounter a dance floor with such a dancer, especially if there is only one 
> who is having so much difficulty but who leaves confused dancers in their 
> wake. Do you call to that dancer? Do you call earlier? Do you adjust your 
> program accordingly? Something else? 
>
> Thanks,
> Alex
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Bob Green via Callers]

St. Louis does it similarly to what Linda describes. We have several
dancers who are bound to be canonized. We have tried to build it into the
ethos that on of the marks of a good dancer is there skill at helping
challenged dancers and their neighbors have a good time. You will almost
never see a new dancer sit out in the first half unless they ask to. Not
only does it help them feel welcome, but it also helps assure they have
someone with the skill to assist them.

Bob Green
St. Louis

(pardon if this is a duplicate, but I think it was rejected as I sent it
from the wrong account the first time

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Linda Leslie via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> A while back, we had the same sort of challenge at one of the local
> dances.  About a dozen of us from the dance community got together to
> problem solve. The group decided that if one of us made sure that the
> challenged dancer had a partner for each dance, that it would be good for
> the entire dance. The less-than-satisfying dance experience would only last
> for 10 minutes or so, but improve the experience for the rest of folks in
> the set. Our reward: the continuous smile on the challenged dancer’s face
> more than made up for any perceived loss of “quality” dance time.  This
> gesture made a lot of difference, making the dance more pleasurable for all
> involved.
>
> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
> ___
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> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller

[Mac Mckeever via Callers]

I don't have any suggestions.  We are fortunate in our community who handle 
this sort of thing professionally and they jump in to help us when needed.
Just sitting down and discussing it in a positive 'we want to help you' way 
would seem reasonable.

Mac


  From: Ron Blechner 
 To: Mac Mckeever  
Cc: Caller's discussion list ; Martha Wild 

 Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2017 3:51 PM
 Subject: Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller
   
Mac, suggestions on how?
(Guessing this is more of an organizer, not caller, thing to do.)

Ron Blechner
On Mar 7, 2017 9:51 AM, "Mac Mckeever via Callers" 
 wrote:

It has been my experience that dancers with limited skills/ability  often do 
not realize they are different from anyone else.  They assume that being lost 
and confused during a dance is normal.
Finding a gentle way to bring this to their attention might be a good way to 
start
Mac McKeeverSTLouis

  From: Martha Wild via Callers 
 To: Caller's discussion list  
 Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2017 8:40 AM
 Subject: Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller
  
As one other caller mentioned - what I do as a caller is avoid looking at that 
dancer AT ALL. That confuses me, and I will miscall if I get to caught up in 
what is happening there. What I do is look ASAP for the dancers who are doing 
the moves smoothly and well, and I call to them, making sure I call clearly at 
the start of the four beats before each move will start, and not at the two 
beats before that I might often use, to give a little extra time for the person 
to react. If there is a four in line down the hall, I will call for the turn 
also on beat five of the phrase before (just as above, just saying it 
differently) ensuring that they turn around and head back in time to cast off 
or do whatever needs to be done in time for the next move. If I call carefully 
and steadily and clearly at the appropriate time for a few times through the 
dance to the experienced dancers, I generally find that once I look at the 
problem area, it has resolved. Also - I don’t vary or shorten my calls, as I 
might otherwise, and I might say Neighbor balance and swing, or With the next 
couple star left - telling them who to do it with and what, or face across, 
right and left through - which way to face etc. especially on any figure that 
might be confusing. 


On Mar 6, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers 
 wrote:

Inspired by Marie's other thread, I wonder what tools callers use when they 
encounter a dance floor with such a dancer, especially if there is only one who 
is having so much difficulty but who leaves confused dancers in their wake. Do 
you call to that dancer? Do you call earlier? Do you adjust your program 
accordingly? Something else? 
Thanks,Alex

Sent from my iPhone__ _
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Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Claire Baffaut via Callers]

John, I like what you said: "To do more certainly would be best with
permission, awareness of offered assistance."
This might be also be one of the way to give him/her a hint that there is a
problem and that we are willing to help solve the said problem.

Claire.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I'd love to hear suggestions on how to approach a dancer like the one in
> question, and broach the subject.
>
> -Ron Blechner
>
> On Mar 7, 2017 1:20 PM, "JD Erskine via Callers" <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-07 0627, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:
>>
>>> I’d like to add another point to Neal’s reasoning:
>>>
>>> As a 5 foot 1 inch woman dancer (and a caller), I can also add that the
>>> female of the human species is known to generally be smaller than the
>>> male.
>>>
>>
>> major snip
>>
>> In general, then, it’s a lot
>>> easier for a big guy to gently direct a small mixed-up woman in the
>>> right direction, than it is for me to change the course of the Titanic
>>> once it starts blundering among the icebergs. That is definitely another
>>> reason people tend to notice the problem with male dancers more. But we
>>> have had at least one large dancing-challenged woman whose size made it
>>> equally difficult to direct - I occasionally tried dancing as the man
>>> with her, but gave it up because it hurt my arms too much.
>>>
>>
>> Martha
>>>
>>
>> George Marshall was in town in the autumn. A teaching point that stood
>> out for me in his pre-dance/inclusivity workshop was, that if someone is
>> still/stationary it's more difficult to move them or guide them to where
>> they might go.
>>
>> If someone is dancing (simply in motion of some sort), even if in a place
>> other than expected, they may be directed more easily.
>>
>> (I keep thinking an air-hockey table at work, however I'm from "up here".)
>>
>> If our male dancer in question is lumbering, stiff, not moving much, and
>> can/may move, then assisting him in that might help make it easier to
>> direct him more in the normal flow of the dance.
>>
>> To do more certainly would be best with permission, awareness of offered
>> assistance.
>>
>> Cheers, John
>> --
>> J.D. Erskine
>> Victoria, BC
>>
>> Island Dance - Folk & Country
>> dance info - site & mail list
>> Vancouver Island & BC islands
>>
>> http://vecds.ca/island.dance/
>> ___
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>


-- 
*Claire*

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller

[Kalia Kliban via Callers]

On 3/7/2017 1:51 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers wrote:

Mac, suggestions on how?

(Guessing this is more of an organizer, not caller, thing to do.)

Ron Blechner

On Mar 7, 2017 9:51 AM, "Mac Mckeever via Callers"
>
wrote:

It has been my experience that dancers with limited skills/ability
often do not realize they are different from anyone else.  They
assume that being lost and confused during a dance is normal.

Finding a gentle way to bring this to their attention might be a
good way to start

Mac McKeever
STLouis


Ron's comment about this being an organizer thing to do brings up a good 
point.  There are things that the caller can see but not do much about 
(what with being up on stage and responsible for keeping the whole room 
moving), and there are things the organizers can do stuff about but 
might not be able to see or properly address (like teaching issues for 
individual dancers).  Finding time during a dance to communicate about 
those things can be hard.  I don't have a solution to this, but am 
merely noticing yet one more thing that can make it difficult to solve 
problem dancers.


Kalia

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

Mac, suggestions on how?

(Guessing this is more of an organizer, not caller, thing to do.)

Ron Blechner

On Mar 7, 2017 9:51 AM, "Mac Mckeever via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> It has been my experience that dancers with limited skills/ability  often
> do not realize they are different from anyone else.  They assume that being
> lost and confused during a dance is normal.
>
> Finding a gentle way to bring this to their attention might be a good way
> to start
>
> Mac McKeever
> STLouis
>
>
> --
> *From:* Martha Wild via Callers 
> *To:* Caller's discussion list 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 7, 2017 8:40 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller
>
> As one other caller mentioned - what I do as a caller is avoid looking at
> that dancer AT ALL. That confuses me, and I will miscall if I get to caught
> up in what is happening there. What I do is look ASAP for the dancers who
> are doing the moves smoothly and well, and I call to them, making sure I
> call clearly at the start of the four beats before each move will start,
> and not at the two beats before that I might often use, to give a little
> extra time for the person to react. If there is a four in line down the
> hall, I will call for the turn also on beat five of the phrase before (just
> as above, just saying it differently) ensuring that they turn around and
> head back in time to cast off or do whatever needs to be done in time for
> the next move. If I call carefully and steadily and clearly at the
> appropriate time for a few times through the dance to the experienced
> dancers, I generally find that once I look at the problem area, it has
> resolved. Also - I don’t vary or shorten my calls, as I might otherwise,
> and I might say Neighbor balance and swing, or With the next couple star
> left - telling them who to do it with and what, or face across, right and
> left through - which way to face etc. especially on any figure that might
> be confusing.
>
>
> On Mar 6, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Inspired by Marie's other thread, I wonder what tools callers use when
> they encounter a dance floor with such a dancer, especially if there is
> only one who is having so much difficulty but who leaves confused dancers
> in their wake. Do you call to that dancer? Do you call earlier? Do you
> adjust your program accordingly? Something else?
>
> Thanks,
> Alex
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
> ___
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>
>
>
> ___
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>
>

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

I'd love to hear suggestions on how to approach a dancer like the one in
question, and broach the subject.

-Ron Blechner

On Mar 7, 2017 1:20 PM, "JD Erskine via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On 2017-03-07 0627, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:
>
>> I’d like to add another point to Neal’s reasoning:
>>
>> As a 5 foot 1 inch woman dancer (and a caller), I can also add that the
>> female of the human species is known to generally be smaller than the
>> male.
>>
>
> major snip
>
> In general, then, it’s a lot
>> easier for a big guy to gently direct a small mixed-up woman in the
>> right direction, than it is for me to change the course of the Titanic
>> once it starts blundering among the icebergs. That is definitely another
>> reason people tend to notice the problem with male dancers more. But we
>> have had at least one large dancing-challenged woman whose size made it
>> equally difficult to direct - I occasionally tried dancing as the man
>> with her, but gave it up because it hurt my arms too much.
>>
>
> Martha
>>
>
> George Marshall was in town in the autumn. A teaching point that stood out
> for me in his pre-dance/inclusivity workshop was, that if someone is
> still/stationary it's more difficult to move them or guide them to where
> they might go.
>
> If someone is dancing (simply in motion of some sort), even if in a place
> other than expected, they may be directed more easily.
>
> (I keep thinking an air-hockey table at work, however I'm from "up here".)
>
> If our male dancer in question is lumbering, stiff, not moving much, and
> can/may move, then assisting him in that might help make it easier to
> direct him more in the normal flow of the dance.
>
> To do more certainly would be best with permission, awareness of offered
> assistance.
>
> Cheers, John
> --
> J.D. Erskine
> Victoria, BC
>
> Island Dance - Folk & Country
> dance info - site & mail list
> Vancouver Island & BC islands
>
> http://vecds.ca/island.dance/
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[JD Erskine via Callers]

On 2017-03-07 0627, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:

I’d like to add another point to Neal’s reasoning:

As a 5 foot 1 inch woman dancer (and a caller), I can also add that the
female of the human species is known to generally be smaller than the
male.


major snip


In general, then, it’s a lot
easier for a big guy to gently direct a small mixed-up woman in the
right direction, than it is for me to change the course of the Titanic
once it starts blundering among the icebergs. That is definitely another
reason people tend to notice the problem with male dancers more. But we
have had at least one large dancing-challenged woman whose size made it
equally difficult to direct - I occasionally tried dancing as the man
with her, but gave it up because it hurt my arms too much.



Martha


George Marshall was in town in the autumn. A teaching point that stood 
out for me in his pre-dance/inclusivity workshop was, that if someone is 
still/stationary it's more difficult to move them or guide them to where 
they might go.


If someone is dancing (simply in motion of some sort), even if in a 
place other than expected, they may be directed more easily.


(I keep thinking an air-hockey table at work, however I'm from "up here".)

If our male dancer in question is lumbering, stiff, not moving much, and 
can/may move, then assisting him in that might help make it easier to 
direct him more in the normal flow of the dance.


To do more certainly would be best with permission, awareness of offered 
assistance.


Cheers, John
--
J.D. Erskine
Victoria, BC

Island Dance - Folk & Country
dance info - site & mail list
Vancouver Island & BC islands

http://vecds.ca/island.dance/

Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller

[Mac Mckeever via Callers]

It has been my experience that dancers with limited skills/ability  often do 
not realize they are different from anyone else.  They assume that being lost 
and confused during a dance is normal.
Finding a gentle way to bring this to their attention might be a good way to 
start
Mac McKeeverSTLouis

  From: Martha Wild via Callers 
 To: Caller's discussion list  
 Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2017 8:40 AM
 Subject: Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller
   
As one other caller mentioned - what I do as a caller is avoid looking at that 
dancer AT ALL. That confuses me, and I will miscall if I get to caught up in 
what is happening there. What I do is look ASAP for the dancers who are doing 
the moves smoothly and well, and I call to them, making sure I call clearly at 
the start of the four beats before each move will start, and not at the two 
beats before that I might often use, to give a little extra time for the person 
to react. If there is a four in line down the hall, I will call for the turn 
also on beat five of the phrase before (just as above, just saying it 
differently) ensuring that they turn around and head back in time to cast off 
or do whatever needs to be done in time for the next move. If I call carefully 
and steadily and clearly at the appropriate time for a few times through the 
dance to the experienced dancers, I generally find that once I look at the 
problem area, it has resolved. Also - I don’t vary or shorten my calls, as I 
might otherwise, and I might say Neighbor balance and swing, or With the next 
couple star left - telling them who to do it with and what, or face across, 
right and left through - which way to face etc. especially on any figure that 
might be confusing. 


On Mar 6, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers 
 wrote:

Inspired by Marie's other thread, I wonder what tools callers use when they 
encounter a dance floor with such a dancer, especially if there is only one who 
is having so much difficulty but who leaves confused dancers in their wake. Do 
you call to that dancer? Do you call earlier? Do you adjust your program 
accordingly? Something else? 
Thanks,Alex

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Re: [Callers] Difficult dancers as a caller

[Martha Wild via Callers]

As one other caller mentioned - what I do as a caller is avoid looking at that 
dancer AT ALL. That confuses me, and I will miscall if I get to caught up in 
what is happening there. What I do is look ASAP for the dancers who are doing 
the moves smoothly and well, and I call to them, making sure I call clearly at 
the start of the four beats before each move will start, and not at the two 
beats before that I might often use, to give a little extra time for the person 
to react. If there is a four in line down the hall, I will call for the turn 
also on beat five of the phrase before (just as above, just saying it 
differently) ensuring that they turn around and head back in time to cast off 
or do whatever needs to be done in time for the next move. If I call carefully 
and steadily and clearly at the appropriate time for a few times through the 
dance to the experienced dancers, I generally find that once I look at the 
problem area, it has resolved. Also - I don’t vary or shorten my calls, as I 
might otherwise, and I might say Neighbor balance and swing, or With the next 
couple star left - telling them who to do it with and what, or face across, 
right and left through - which way to face etc. especially on any figure that 
might be confusing. 


> On Mar 6, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Inspired by Marie's other thread, I wonder what tools callers use when they 
> encounter a dance floor with such a dancer, especially if there is only one 
> who is having so much difficulty but who leaves confused dancers in their 
> wake. Do you call to that dancer? Do you call earlier? Do you adjust your 
> program accordingly? Something else? 
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Martha Wild via Callers]

I’d like to add another point to Neal’s reasoning:

As a 5 foot 1 inch woman dancer (and a caller), I can also add that the female 
of the human species is known to generally be smaller than the male. This is 
such a signature difference that on Voyager they included a graven image of the 
human species, with the woman scientifically proportionately smaller than the 
man. In general, then, it’s a lot easier for a big guy to gently direct a small 
mixed-up woman in the right direction, than it is for me to change the course 
of the Titanic once it starts blundering among the icebergs. That is definitely 
another reason people tend to notice the problem with male dancers more. But we 
have had at least one large dancing-challenged woman whose size made it equally 
difficult to direct - I occasionally tried dancing as the man with her, but 
gave it up because it hurt my arms too much. 

And yes, we used to have two terrible male dancers when we first started our 
series here - one who thought he was great, and wasn’t, and one for whom ladies 
chain seemed to be a new figure each week. They were so bad that as with other 
groups mentioned, a bunch of strong female dancers got together and we decided 
to have one “sacrificial dance” each with them every evening, to prevent them 
from dancing with newcomers and either destroying the whole set or driving the 
newbies away. It reinforced the idea of the first guy who thought he was great 
- women sought him out! And the other guy actually very slowly improved by 
dancing with good dancers all the time. And I still like to grab newcomers who 
are having difficulty early in the evening - but I avoid the really big ones - 
not as strong and unbreakable as I used to be…

Martha




> On Mar 6, 2017, at 10:39 PM, Neal Schlein via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Interesting observation, Alan.
> 
> Yes, I've encountered it with female dancers as a dancer and caller.  
> However...it isn't quite the same.  I suspect it is both more apparent and 
> more pronounced with men, AND that once they've braved the waters to come 
> dancing the experience of it may be less likely to cause them to stop dancing 
> than it is with women.  
> 
> Here's my reasoning:
> 
> Even though squares and contra are not even close to being true lead/follow 
> dances, the men's role is still imbued with more directional control and 
> responsibility in things like properly positioning swings and managing 
> courtesy turns.  A man who persistently fails at those will be more 
> disruptive and obvious than an equally incompetent female counterpart due to 
> simple physics and the nature of contra choreography.  There is nothing to 
> tell him that HE is the problem, and if he has never seen or experienced a 
> truly successful set he doesn't know any better.
> 
> There is also a more significant social component.  Men tend to be rewarded 
> for acting confident and penalized for seeking outside validation, so much so 
> that we do it even when we don't know what we're doing.  Women experience the 
> reverse situation and are likely to be criticized (or feel they will be 
> criticized) for being confident even when they obviously DO know what they 
> are doing.  That means a struggling male dancer is more likely to go 
> confidently wrong than a woman, while a skilled male dancer is more willing 
> to confidently "assist" a difficult partner than his equally skilled female 
> counterparts.  Conversely, a struggling female dancer is more likely to 
> accept assistance and willingly perceive the problem than a man is.
> 
> There is research which has been done on false confidence, where people who 
> possess highly above-average skill will tend to underestimate their own 
> knowledge and overestimate that of others, while those who persistently fail 
> to learn will tend to do the reverse.  This sort of persistent-beginner 
> dancer may actually believe that he is learning at a perfectly fine rate.
> 
> Another piece of research that I think is relevant has to do with the 
> different reactions men and women have to the same act of failure.  An 
> assessment was done of failed funding attempts on Kickstarter.  What the 
> researchers discovered first was that a repeated effort was more likely to 
> succeed.   Then they broke down the behavior by gender.  When male 
> entrepreneurs failed to receive backing, they were highly likely to repost 
> the same project until it succeeded.  A female entrepreneur, on the other 
> hand, would scrap it and try something completely different--if she tried 
> anything at all.  The researchers interpreted this difference as being caused 
> by relative internalization of community commentary.  (I haven't read the 
> original papers, and learned of both topics through NPR.  I can dig up the 
> citations if anyone is interested in learning more.) 
> 
> Anyway, if that conclusion is correct, male versions of these problem dancers 
> may stick