Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Bob Peterson via Callers]

Just to expand people’s idea of “techno”, let’s include “non-traditional music 
contras”. People often conflate these. As an umbrella term, “techno” does not 
have to mean dimmed or special lighting. There’s a lot of fun in dancing to any 
music appropriately edited for contra dancing in normal hall lighting! (I 
include live and DJ’d music in this definition.)

With normal hall lighting, demos are perfectly appropriate. Again, keep the 
dances simple, so demos shouldn’t need to be long. 

\Bob

> On Apr 7, 2019, at 12:33, Maia McCormick via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ah, whoops, wrong link: 
> http://contra.maiamccormick.com/blog/2019/04/07/techno-reflections/
> 
>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 12:26 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
>> (And if anyone wants to refer back to this, it's up on my blog!)
>> 
>>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 4:27 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
>>> Thanks for the advice, all! While it's fresh in my mind, wanted to report 
>>> back and call out a few pieces of advice from this thread that were 
>>> particularly helpful (or that I ignored to my own detriment). Just my 
>>> observations--hope this is helpful to someone!
>>> 
>>> 1. Demos are indeed hard
>>> I agree with everyone who warned me away from demos at a techno -- it's 
>>> dark and hard to see, and dancers just want to groove. "If you need a demo 
>>> for it, the dance is probably too hard" was a great yardstick for my 
>>> programming, thanks Chuck!
>>> 
>>> 2. Keep calling
>>> Jonathan nailed it -- if the phrasing is at all hard to follow, dancers 
>>> will tend to swing too long. I definitely found myself calling more than I 
>>> would in a non-techno contra (by the end of the dances, my calls were all 
>>> one beat, but I was often still calling at least some moves). Knowing to 
>>> look out for over-long swings in particular was super helpful, thanks!
>>> 
>>> 3. Choose easy dances
>>> I got cocky in the second half and programmed some stuff that was above the 
>>> level of the crowd, and had to fall back to Hey in the Barn when a weird 
>>> box circulate dance fell apart. The advice that many people gave is super 
>>> sound -- it's harder to see and harder to focus, dancers probably just want 
>>> to groove etc., and so easier dances are the way to go.
>>> 
>>> I want to add one more thing I noticed, which is that I as a caller 
>>> couldn't get a read on the hall because it was so dark. If I'd been better 
>>> able to see how ropy the previous dance had been, or that a lot of the 
>>> experienced people had left at the break, I would have been better able to 
>>> adjust my program. So there's another point in favor of calling easier 
>>> dances -- not so much that they dancers can't handle it, as a rule, but 
>>> rather that you as a caller can't tell as easily whether the dancers can 
>>> handle it.
>>> 
>>> 4. If you can, listen to the tracks in advance!
>>> I worked with Mark Moore (DJ Flourish) from Philly--he's great! Among other 
>>> things, he sent me his tracks in advance, which meant that I could get 
>>> extra precise with the dance/track pairing--super helpful because it's much 
>>> harder to request specific track features to go with a dance when working 
>>> with a DJ than with a band. Also, I knew how many potatoes to expect for 
>>> each track, if they were at all fake-out-y, etc.
>>> 
 On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:17 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
 Ah, more specific questions!
 
 - have you found on-the-floor demos doable at techno, or should I not even 
 try?
 - techno no-walk-through's: do they work?
 
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:13 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
> Hey folks,
> 
> I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so 
> this weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno differs 
> from your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about anything 
> relating to dance choice and dance length.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Maia
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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Maia McCormick via Callers]

Ah, whoops, wrong link:
http://contra.maiamccormick.com/blog/2019/04/07/techno-reflections/

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 12:26 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:

> (And if anyone wants to refer back to this, it's up on my blog
> !)
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 4:27 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the advice, all! While it's fresh in my mind, wanted to report
>> back and call out a few pieces of advice from this thread that were
>> particularly helpful (or that I ignored to my own detriment). Just my
>> observations--hope this is helpful to someone!
>>
>> *1. Demos are indeed hard*
>> I agree with everyone who warned me away from demos at a techno -- it's
>> dark and hard to see, and dancers just want to groove. "If you need a demo
>> for it, the dance is probably too hard" was a great yardstick for my
>> programming, thanks Chuck!
>>
>> *2. Keep calling*
>> Jonathan nailed it -- if the phrasing is at all hard to follow, dancers
>> will tend to swing too long. I definitely found myself calling more than I
>> would in a non-techno contra (by the end of the dances, my calls were all
>> one beat, but I was often still calling at least some moves). Knowing to
>> look out for over-long swings in particular was super helpful, thanks!
>>
>> *3. Choose easy dances*
>> I got cocky in the second half and programmed some stuff that was above
>> the level of the crowd, and had to fall back to Hey in the Barn when a
>> weird box circulate dance fell apart. The advice that many people gave is
>> super sound -- it's harder to see and harder to focus, dancers probably
>> just want to groove etc., and so easier dances are the way to go.
>>
>> I want to add one more thing I noticed, which is that *I as a caller
>> couldn't get a read on the hall because it was so dark*. If I'd been
>> better able to see how ropy the previous dance had been, or that a lot of
>> the experienced people had left at the break, I would have been better able
>> to adjust my program. So there's another point in favor of calling easier
>> dances -- not so much that they dancers can't handle it, as a rule, but
>> rather that you as a caller can't tell as easily whether the dancers can
>> handle it.
>>
>> *4. If you can, listen to the tracks in advance!*
>> I worked with Mark Moore (DJ Flourish) from Philly--he's great! Among
>> other things, he sent me his tracks in advance, which meant that I could
>> get extra precise with the dance/track pairing--super helpful because it's
>> much harder to request specific track features to go with a dance when
>> working with a DJ than with a band. Also, I knew how many potatoes to
>> expect for each track, if they were at all fake-out-y, etc.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:17 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
>>
>>> Ah, more specific questions!
>>>
>>> - have you found on-the-floor demos doable at techno, or should I not
>>> even try?
>>> - techno no-walk-through's: do they work?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:13 PM Maia McCormick 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hey folks,

 I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so
 this weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno differs
 from your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about anything
 relating to dance choice and dance length.)

 Cheers,
 Maia

>>>
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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Maia McCormick via Callers]

(And if anyone wants to refer back to this, it's up on my blog
!)

On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 4:27 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:

> Thanks for the advice, all! While it's fresh in my mind, wanted to report
> back and call out a few pieces of advice from this thread that were
> particularly helpful (or that I ignored to my own detriment). Just my
> observations--hope this is helpful to someone!
>
> *1. Demos are indeed hard*
> I agree with everyone who warned me away from demos at a techno -- it's
> dark and hard to see, and dancers just want to groove. "If you need a demo
> for it, the dance is probably too hard" was a great yardstick for my
> programming, thanks Chuck!
>
> *2. Keep calling*
> Jonathan nailed it -- if the phrasing is at all hard to follow, dancers
> will tend to swing too long. I definitely found myself calling more than I
> would in a non-techno contra (by the end of the dances, my calls were all
> one beat, but I was often still calling at least some moves). Knowing to
> look out for over-long swings in particular was super helpful, thanks!
>
> *3. Choose easy dances*
> I got cocky in the second half and programmed some stuff that was above
> the level of the crowd, and had to fall back to Hey in the Barn when a
> weird box circulate dance fell apart. The advice that many people gave is
> super sound -- it's harder to see and harder to focus, dancers probably
> just want to groove etc., and so easier dances are the way to go.
>
> I want to add one more thing I noticed, which is that *I as a caller
> couldn't get a read on the hall because it was so dark*. If I'd been
> better able to see how ropy the previous dance had been, or that a lot of
> the experienced people had left at the break, I would have been better able
> to adjust my program. So there's another point in favor of calling easier
> dances -- not so much that they dancers can't handle it, as a rule, but
> rather that you as a caller can't tell as easily whether the dancers can
> handle it.
>
> *4. If you can, listen to the tracks in advance!*
> I worked with Mark Moore (DJ Flourish) from Philly--he's great! Among
> other things, he sent me his tracks in advance, which meant that I could
> get extra precise with the dance/track pairing--super helpful because it's
> much harder to request specific track features to go with a dance when
> working with a DJ than with a band. Also, I knew how many potatoes to
> expect for each track, if they were at all fake-out-y, etc.
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:17 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
>
>> Ah, more specific questions!
>>
>> - have you found on-the-floor demos doable at techno, or should I not
>> even try?
>> - techno no-walk-through's: do they work?
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:13 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
>>
>>> Hey folks,
>>>
>>> I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so
>>> this weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno differs
>>> from your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about anything
>>> relating to dance choice and dance length.)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Maia
>>>
>>
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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Martha Wild via Callers]

I’ve called to a techno contra once - but the person who put the techno tracks 
together was smart, contra savvy, and mindful of phrasing, and used pieces that 
had good 8 count beats, and made the transitions work so that they were at 
proper junctions and could sync people up again. It was therefore relatively 
easy to get the hang and keep things flowing. It really depends a lot on the 
skill and knowledge of the person/people putting the music together. Bad techno 
tracks make for a bad contra, just as a poor band that mixes up As and Bs or 
doesn’t keep a steady beat messes things up. The DJs or whoever is setting up 
and putting together the music should not be hired if they are known to put bad 
tracks together that make it impossible for people to dance in time to the 
music and with each other.
Martha


> On Apr 3, 2019, at 2:04 PM, Read Weaver via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Definitely this. I’ve largely stopped going to techno contras because it’s so 
> hard to keep the phrasing. The pleasure of contra (and English) dancing for 
> me is hugely tied up with everyone on the floor moving together, so when that 
> doesn’t happen it doesn’t much interest me.
> 
> Read Weaver
> Jamaica Plain, MA
> http://lcfd.org
> 
>> On Mar 28, 2019, at 7:17 PM, Sivier, Jonathan E via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>   Keep calling.  My experience has been that techo music has plenty of 
>> beat and no phrasing.  So dancers don't know when to stop the current 
>> figure and start the next one.  Some figures like circles, stars and 
>> lines forward and back have a kind of natural timing so dances with 
>> those figures work well.  Some other figures such as heys, chains and 
>> swings are less well defined as far as timing goes, and dancers tend to 
>> rush heys and chains and go long on swings.  So the dancers will all 
>> take different amount of time for them.  This means that if you stop 
>> calling the various parts of the lines will start to diverge in where 
>> they are in the dance and soon there will be parts of the room dancing 
>> the A1 part while others places in the room they are dancing the A2 or 
>> even B1 part.  I think swings may be the biggest issue.  Everyone likes 
>> to swing and many dancers will go long on each swing, but they'll all go 
>> long by a different amount.
>> 
>>   Choose dances with figures that have really well-defined timing and 
>> don't stop calling and you will be OK.  You may be able to reduce the 
>> amount of calling, but you will probably need to say something from time 
>> to time to re-synchronize the dancers.
>> 
>> Jonathan
>> 
>> On 3/28/2019 4:13 PM, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote:
>>> Hey folks,
>>> 
>>> I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so 
>>> this weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno 
>>> differs from your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about 
>>> anything relating to dance choice and dance length.)
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Maia
> 
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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Read Weaver via Callers]

Definitely this. I’ve largely stopped going to techno contras because it’s so 
hard to keep the phrasing. The pleasure of contra (and English) dancing for me 
is hugely tied up with everyone on the floor moving together, so when that 
doesn’t happen it doesn’t much interest me.

Read Weaver
Jamaica Plain, MA
http://lcfd.org

> On Mar 28, 2019, at 7:17 PM, Sivier, Jonathan E via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
>Keep calling.  My experience has been that techo music has plenty of 
> beat and no phrasing.  So dancers don't know when to stop the current 
> figure and start the next one.  Some figures like circles, stars and 
> lines forward and back have a kind of natural timing so dances with 
> those figures work well.  Some other figures such as heys, chains and 
> swings are less well defined as far as timing goes, and dancers tend to 
> rush heys and chains and go long on swings.  So the dancers will all 
> take different amount of time for them.  This means that if you stop 
> calling the various parts of the lines will start to diverge in where 
> they are in the dance and soon there will be parts of the room dancing 
> the A1 part while others places in the room they are dancing the A2 or 
> even B1 part.  I think swings may be the biggest issue.  Everyone likes 
> to swing and many dancers will go long on each swing, but they'll all go 
> long by a different amount.
> 
>Choose dances with figures that have really well-defined timing and 
> don't stop calling and you will be OK.  You may be able to reduce the 
> amount of calling, but you will probably need to say something from time 
> to time to re-synchronize the dancers.
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> On 3/28/2019 4:13 PM, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote:
>> Hey folks,
>> 
>> I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so 
>> this weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno 
>> differs from your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about 
>> anything relating to dance choice and dance length.)
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Maia

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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Maia McCormick via Callers]

Thanks for the advice, all! While it's fresh in my mind, wanted to report
back and call out a few pieces of advice from this thread that were
particularly helpful (or that I ignored to my own detriment). Just my
observations--hope this is helpful to someone!

*1. Demos are indeed hard*
I agree with everyone who warned me away from demos at a techno -- it's
dark and hard to see, and dancers just want to groove. "If you need a demo
for it, the dance is probably too hard" was a great yardstick for my
programming, thanks Chuck!

*2. Keep calling*
Jonathan nailed it -- if the phrasing is at all hard to follow, dancers
will tend to swing too long. I definitely found myself calling more than I
would in a non-techno contra (by the end of the dances, my calls were all
one beat, but I was often still calling at least some moves). Knowing to
look out for over-long swings in particular was super helpful, thanks!

*3. Choose easy dances*
I got cocky in the second half and programmed some stuff that was above the
level of the crowd, and had to fall back to Hey in the Barn when a weird
box circulate dance fell apart. The advice that many people gave is super
sound -- it's harder to see and harder to focus, dancers probably just want
to groove etc., and so easier dances are the way to go.

I want to add one more thing I noticed, which is that *I as a caller
couldn't get a read on the hall because it was so dark*. If I'd been better
able to see how ropy the previous dance had been, or that a lot of the
experienced people had left at the break, I would have been better able to
adjust my program. So there's another point in favor of calling easier
dances -- not so much that they dancers can't handle it, as a rule, but
rather that you as a caller can't tell as easily whether the dancers can
handle it.

*4. If you can, listen to the tracks in advance!*
I worked with Mark Moore (DJ Flourish) from Philly--he's great! Among other
things, he sent me his tracks in advance, which meant that I could get
extra precise with the dance/track pairing--super helpful because it's much
harder to request specific track features to go with a dance when working
with a DJ than with a band. Also, I knew how many potatoes to expect for
each track, if they were at all fake-out-y, etc.

On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:17 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:

> Ah, more specific questions!
>
> - have you found on-the-floor demos doable at techno, or should I not even
> try?
> - techno no-walk-through's: do they work?
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:13 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
>
>> Hey folks,
>>
>> I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so
>> this weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno differs
>> from your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about anything
>> relating to dance choice and dance length.)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Maia
>>
>
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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Donna Hunt via Callers]

 Maia:Don't believe that.  I called with a DJ who didn't know how long their 
tracks were and couldn't tell me how they started and often went down on the 
floor to dance once the music started.  One track ended in the middle of the 
A2.  And there was no clear "start" to any of the phrasing in most of the 
tracks.  Not a fun evening for me.  
 
Donna
Web Site:  donnahuntcaller.com
Email: dhuntdan...@aol.com
Cell:  215-565-6050


 
 
-Original Message-
From: Maia McCormick via Callers 
To: jim saxe 
Cc: Caller's discussion list 
Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2019 1:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

I don't think you would ever play a random non-vetted techno track for contra, 
though. The DJs who get booked for these events are specifically techno contra 
DJs.
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:59 AM jim saxe via Callers 
 wrote:

On Mar 28, 2019, at 2:39 PM, Bob via Callers  
wrote:

> ...
> Live or mixed recordings? If live then it should be perfectly square AABB. If 
> mixed, the only thing you can count on is 8-beat phrases. ...

Can you even count on 8-beat phrases if someone, such as a caller or a 
knowledgeable DJ, hasn't vetted the tracks?

I know practically nothing about techno music, but recordings in other genres 
that aren't made for phrased dancing will not necessarily follow strict 8-beat 
phrasing.  For instance ...

It's pretty common for a folk singers accompanying themselves to play a few 
bars of guitar strums--and not always the same number--while trying to remember 
the first line of the next verse.  While I haven't gone looking for examples, 
I'd be surprised if such variable inter-verse vamping didn't sometimes appear 
even on studio recordings.

In some fiddle traditions, such as southern and Quebecois, besides straight 
tunes and wildly crooked tunes, there are also tunes that are mostly straight 
but have an occasional odd phrase.  Even medleys of straight tunes can 
sometimes have some extra beats at the transitions between tunes, as heard 
around 0:59 in this video:

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLUyg173n_M
     Yo-Yo Ma - Fiddle Medley ft. Stuart Duncan, Edgar Meyer, Chris Thile

Line dances are mostly choreographed to music that's in multiples of 8 beats, 
but exceptions are hardly unusual.  Also, in order to fit recordings that were 
made for listening and not specifically for dance routines, line-dance step 
sheets may prescribe various irregularities in the routines.  Here are just a 
few of the examples a little searching turned up:

     
https://www.learn2dance4fun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Boot-Scootin-Boogie.pdf
     Boot Scootin’ Boogie
     38 count, 4 wall, beginner line dance

     
https://www.copperknob.co.uk/stepsheets/every-little-honky-tonk-ID132260.aspx
     Every Little Honky Tonk
     32-count, 4 wall line dance with 12-count tag after wall 2

     http://tinalinedancers.com/data/documents/Came-Here-To-Forget.pdf
     Came Here To Forget
     Description: Line Dance - 2 Wall (24ct.) - Intermediate 1 Restart, 2 Tags
     Sequence: 24, 24, Tag 1, 14cts- Restart, 24, 24, Tag 2 (6cts.), 24, 24...

For some other examples of music that's largely, *but not entirely*, in chunks 
of 8 beats (or eight bars of triple meter), try listening to any of these while 
tapping your foot or fingers and counting along:

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg0kfd7kow4
     Paul McCartney - When I'm 64

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33o32C0ogVM
     Julie Andrews - My Favorite Things

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww
     Nancy Sinatra - These Boots Are Made for Walkin'

So here's my question, for those of you who are more familiar with techno music 
than I am:  If you play a random track not already "vetted" for phrasing, if 
you find a place where there's sufficiently discernible phrasing to establish a 
starting point for your "mental metronome of 8 counts" (to quote Donna Hunt), 
if you use that mental metronome to carry you through a part where phrasing is 
less evident, and if you then get to another part with findable phrasing, how 
reliably (or not) can you expect that the phrases will still line up with your 
mental eight-counts?

--Jim

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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Erik Erhardt via Callers]

Here's a "how-to" that I wrote several years ago that covers putting
together dance medleys and mixing music, including what to do with
"non-square" phrases.

*Crossover contras: music and dance medleys:* *Creating a fun and danceable
contra dance medley to alternative music*
Erik B. Erhardt, Albuqerque, NM, https://statacumen.com/dance/
https://statacumen.com/pub/fun/ErikBErhardt_CrossoverContras_MusicAndDanceMedleys.pdf

Erik Erhardt
(505)480-4462  StatAcumen.com


On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:50 AM Bob via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I mix lots of genres of music for contras. The only track I’ve ever called
> without mixing was the first release of Mika’s “Big Girl (You Are
> Beautiful)” on Cartoon Motion. It goes 7x through so it was a real short
> dance but a nice filler with a no-walkthrough dance.
>
> Everything else needs work. I only pick tracks that have clear 8-beat
> phrasing most of the time. If I can I move the parts with indistinguishable
> phrases towards the end of the mix once the dancers know the dance well.
> Alternatively I add a beat track to enhance the beats and phrasing. I
> rarely mix by simple copy and paste, which allows me to do creative stuff
> to ensure phrases are spot on. (“This is Halloween” from The Nightmare
> Before Christmas was true to its name, a nightmare with a few slipped
> phrases of 9 or 7 beats, but I *made* it to work.)
>
> So it’s being selective, doing often heavy editing, and many other bits n
> bobs that are in my secret sauce. I rarely try for AABB squaring since that
> can wreck the original music too much. One still must count (I cheat: I
> perform from my mixing app which has the phrase markings for me.)
>
> \Bob
>
> > On Mar 29, 2019, at 11:58, jim saxe via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mar 28, 2019, at 2:39 PM, Bob via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ...
> >> Live or mixed recordings? If live then it should be perfectly square
> AABB. If mixed, the only thing you can count on is 8-beat phrases. ...
> >
> > Can you even count on 8-beat phrases if someone, such as a caller or a
> knowledgeable DJ, hasn't vetted the tracks?
> >
> > I know practically nothing about techno music, but recordings in other
> genres that aren't made for phrased dancing will not necessarily follow
> strict 8-beat phrasing.  For instance ...
> >
> > It's pretty common for a folk singers accompanying themselves to play a
> few bars of guitar strums--and not always the same number--while trying to
> remember the first line of the next verse.  While I haven't gone looking
> for examples, I'd be surprised if such variable inter-verse vamping didn't
> sometimes appear even on studio recordings.
> >
> > In some fiddle traditions, such as southern and Quebecois, besides
> straight tunes and wildly crooked tunes, there are also tunes that are
> mostly straight but have an occasional odd phrase.  Even medleys of
> straight tunes can sometimes have some extra beats at the transitions
> between tunes, as heard around 0:59 in this video:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLUyg173n_M
> > Yo-Yo Ma - Fiddle Medley ft. Stuart Duncan, Edgar Meyer, Chris Thile
> >
> > Line dances are mostly choreographed to music that's in multiples of 8
> beats, but exceptions are hardly unusual.  Also, in order to fit recordings
> that were made for listening and not specifically for dance routines,
> line-dance step sheets may prescribe various irregularities in the
> routines.  Here are just a few of the examples a little searching turned up:
> >
> >
> https://www.learn2dance4fun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Boot-Scootin-Boogie.pdf
> > Boot Scootin’ Boogie
> > 38 count, 4 wall, beginner line dance
> >
> >
> https://www.copperknob.co.uk/stepsheets/every-little-honky-tonk-ID132260.aspx
> > Every Little Honky Tonk
> > 32-count, 4 wall line dance with 12-count tag after wall 2
> >
> > http://tinalinedancers.com/data/documents/Came-Here-To-Forget.pdf
> > Came Here To Forget
> > Description: Line Dance - 2 Wall (24ct.) - Intermediate 1 Restart, 2
> Tags
> > Sequence: 24, 24, Tag 1, 14cts- Restart, 24, 24, Tag 2 (6cts.), 24,
> 24...
> >
> > For some other examples of music that's largely, *but not entirely*, in
> chunks of 8 beats (or eight bars of triple meter), try listening to any of
> these while tapping your foot or fingers and counting along:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg0kfd7kow4
> > Paul McCartney - When I'm 64
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33o32C0ogVM
> > Julie Andrews - My Favorite Things
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww
> > Nancy Sinatra - These Boots Are Made for Walkin'
> >
> > So here's my question, for those of you who are more familiar with
> techno music than I am:  If you play a random track not already "vetted"
> for phrasing, if you find a place where there's sufficiently discernible
> phrasing to 

Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Maia McCormick via Callers]

I don't think you would ever play a random non-vetted techno track for
contra, though. The DJs who get booked for these events are specifically
techno contra DJs.

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:59 AM jim saxe via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On Mar 28, 2019, at 2:39 PM, Bob via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> > ...
> > Live or mixed recordings? If live then it should be perfectly square
> AABB. If mixed, the only thing you can count on is 8-beat phrases. ...
>
> Can you even count on 8-beat phrases if someone, such as a caller or a
> knowledgeable DJ, hasn't vetted the tracks?
>
> I know practically nothing about techno music, but recordings in other
> genres that aren't made for phrased dancing will not necessarily follow
> strict 8-beat phrasing.  For instance ...
>
> It's pretty common for a folk singers accompanying themselves to play a
> few bars of guitar strums--and not always the same number--while trying to
> remember the first line of the next verse.  While I haven't gone looking
> for examples, I'd be surprised if such variable inter-verse vamping didn't
> sometimes appear even on studio recordings.
>
> In some fiddle traditions, such as southern and Quebecois, besides
> straight tunes and wildly crooked tunes, there are also tunes that are
> mostly straight but have an occasional odd phrase.  Even medleys of
> straight tunes can sometimes have some extra beats at the transitions
> between tunes, as heard around 0:59 in this video:
>
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLUyg173n_M
>  Yo-Yo Ma - Fiddle Medley ft. Stuart Duncan, Edgar Meyer, Chris Thile
>
> Line dances are mostly choreographed to music that's in multiples of 8
> beats, but exceptions are hardly unusual.  Also, in order to fit recordings
> that were made for listening and not specifically for dance routines,
> line-dance step sheets may prescribe various irregularities in the
> routines.  Here are just a few of the examples a little searching turned up:
>
>
> https://www.learn2dance4fun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Boot-Scootin-Boogie.pdf
>  Boot Scootin’ Boogie
>  38 count, 4 wall, beginner line dance
>
>
> https://www.copperknob.co.uk/stepsheets/every-little-honky-tonk-ID132260.aspx
>  Every Little Honky Tonk
>  32-count, 4 wall line dance with 12-count tag after wall 2
>
>  http://tinalinedancers.com/data/documents/Came-Here-To-Forget.pdf
>  Came Here To Forget
>  Description: Line Dance - 2 Wall (24ct.) - Intermediate 1 Restart, 2
> Tags
>  Sequence: 24, 24, Tag 1, 14cts- Restart, 24, 24, Tag 2 (6cts.), 24,
> 24...
>
> For some other examples of music that's largely, *but not entirely*, in
> chunks of 8 beats (or eight bars of triple meter), try listening to any of
> these while tapping your foot or fingers and counting along:
>
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg0kfd7kow4
>  Paul McCartney - When I'm 64
>
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33o32C0ogVM
>  Julie Andrews - My Favorite Things
>
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww
>  Nancy Sinatra - These Boots Are Made for Walkin'
>
> So here's my question, for those of you who are more familiar with techno
> music than I am:  If you play a random track not already "vetted" for
> phrasing, if you find a place where there's sufficiently discernible
> phrasing to establish a starting point for your "mental metronome of 8
> counts" (to quote Donna Hunt), if you use that mental metronome to carry
> you through a part where phrasing is less evident, and if you then get to
> another part with findable phrasing, how reliably (or not) can you expect
> that the phrases will still line up with your mental eight-counts?
>
> --Jim
>
> ___
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> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Bob via Callers]

I mix lots of genres of music for contras. The only track I’ve ever called 
without mixing was the first release of Mika’s “Big Girl (You Are Beautiful)” 
on Cartoon Motion. It goes 7x through so it was a real short dance but a nice 
filler with a no-walkthrough dance. 

Everything else needs work. I only pick tracks that have clear 8-beat phrasing 
most of the time. If I can I move the parts with indistinguishable phrases 
towards the end of the mix once the dancers know the dance well. Alternatively 
I add a beat track to enhance the beats and phrasing. I rarely mix by simple 
copy and paste, which allows me to do creative stuff to ensure phrases are spot 
on. (“This is Halloween” from The Nightmare Before Christmas was true to its 
name, a nightmare with a few slipped phrases of 9 or 7 beats, but I *made* it 
to work.)

So it’s being selective, doing often heavy editing, and many other bits n bobs 
that are in my secret sauce. I rarely try for AABB squaring since that can 
wreck the original music too much. One still must count (I cheat: I perform 
from my mixing app which has the phrase markings for me.)

\Bob

> On Mar 29, 2019, at 11:58, jim saxe via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On Mar 28, 2019, at 2:39 PM, Bob via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> ...
>> Live or mixed recordings? If live then it should be perfectly square AABB. 
>> If mixed, the only thing you can count on is 8-beat phrases. ...
> 
> Can you even count on 8-beat phrases if someone, such as a caller or a 
> knowledgeable DJ, hasn't vetted the tracks?
> 
> I know practically nothing about techno music, but recordings in other genres 
> that aren't made for phrased dancing will not necessarily follow strict 
> 8-beat phrasing.  For instance ...
> 
> It's pretty common for a folk singers accompanying themselves to play a few 
> bars of guitar strums--and not always the same number--while trying to 
> remember the first line of the next verse.  While I haven't gone looking for 
> examples, I'd be surprised if such variable inter-verse vamping didn't 
> sometimes appear even on studio recordings.
> 
> In some fiddle traditions, such as southern and Quebecois, besides straight 
> tunes and wildly crooked tunes, there are also tunes that are mostly straight 
> but have an occasional odd phrase.  Even medleys of straight tunes can 
> sometimes have some extra beats at the transitions between tunes, as heard 
> around 0:59 in this video:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLUyg173n_M
> Yo-Yo Ma - Fiddle Medley ft. Stuart Duncan, Edgar Meyer, Chris Thile
> 
> Line dances are mostly choreographed to music that's in multiples of 8 beats, 
> but exceptions are hardly unusual.  Also, in order to fit recordings that 
> were made for listening and not specifically for dance routines, line-dance 
> step sheets may prescribe various irregularities in the routines.  Here are 
> just a few of the examples a little searching turned up:
> 
> 
> https://www.learn2dance4fun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Boot-Scootin-Boogie.pdf
> Boot Scootin’ Boogie
> 38 count, 4 wall, beginner line dance
> 
> 
> https://www.copperknob.co.uk/stepsheets/every-little-honky-tonk-ID132260.aspx
> Every Little Honky Tonk
> 32-count, 4 wall line dance with 12-count tag after wall 2
> 
> http://tinalinedancers.com/data/documents/Came-Here-To-Forget.pdf
> Came Here To Forget
> Description: Line Dance - 2 Wall (24ct.) - Intermediate 1 Restart, 2 Tags
> Sequence: 24, 24, Tag 1, 14cts- Restart, 24, 24, Tag 2 (6cts.), 24, 24...
> 
> For some other examples of music that's largely, *but not entirely*, in 
> chunks of 8 beats (or eight bars of triple meter), try listening to any of 
> these while tapping your foot or fingers and counting along:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg0kfd7kow4
> Paul McCartney - When I'm 64
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33o32C0ogVM
> Julie Andrews - My Favorite Things
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww
> Nancy Sinatra - These Boots Are Made for Walkin'
> 
> So here's my question, for those of you who are more familiar with techno 
> music than I am:  If you play a random track not already "vetted" for 
> phrasing, if you find a place where there's sufficiently discernible phrasing 
> to establish a starting point for your "mental metronome of 8 counts" (to 
> quote Donna Hunt), if you use that mental metronome to carry you through a 
> part where phrasing is less evident, and if you then get to another part with 
> findable phrasing, how reliably (or not) can you expect that the phrases will 
> still line up with your mental eight-counts?
> 
> --Jim
> 
> ___
> List Name:  Callers mailing list
> List Address:  Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives:  https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/

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List Address:  

Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[jim saxe via Callers]

On Mar 28, 2019, at 2:39 PM, Bob via Callers  
wrote:

> ...
> Live or mixed recordings? If live then it should be perfectly square AABB. If 
> mixed, the only thing you can count on is 8-beat phrases. ...

Can you even count on 8-beat phrases if someone, such as a caller or a 
knowledgeable DJ, hasn't vetted the tracks?

I know practically nothing about techno music, but recordings in other genres 
that aren't made for phrased dancing will not necessarily follow strict 8-beat 
phrasing.  For instance ...

It's pretty common for a folk singers accompanying themselves to play a few 
bars of guitar strums--and not always the same number--while trying to remember 
the first line of the next verse.  While I haven't gone looking for examples, 
I'd be surprised if such variable inter-verse vamping didn't sometimes appear 
even on studio recordings.

In some fiddle traditions, such as southern and Quebecois, besides straight 
tunes and wildly crooked tunes, there are also tunes that are mostly straight 
but have an occasional odd phrase.  Even medleys of straight tunes can 
sometimes have some extra beats at the transitions between tunes, as heard 
around 0:59 in this video:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLUyg173n_M
 Yo-Yo Ma - Fiddle Medley ft. Stuart Duncan, Edgar Meyer, Chris Thile

Line dances are mostly choreographed to music that's in multiples of 8 beats, 
but exceptions are hardly unusual.  Also, in order to fit recordings that were 
made for listening and not specifically for dance routines, line-dance step 
sheets may prescribe various irregularities in the routines.  Here are just a 
few of the examples a little searching turned up:

 
https://www.learn2dance4fun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Boot-Scootin-Boogie.pdf
 Boot Scootin’ Boogie
 38 count, 4 wall, beginner line dance

 
https://www.copperknob.co.uk/stepsheets/every-little-honky-tonk-ID132260.aspx
 Every Little Honky Tonk
 32-count, 4 wall line dance with 12-count tag after wall 2

 http://tinalinedancers.com/data/documents/Came-Here-To-Forget.pdf
 Came Here To Forget
 Description: Line Dance - 2 Wall (24ct.) - Intermediate 1 Restart, 2 Tags
 Sequence: 24, 24, Tag 1, 14cts- Restart, 24, 24, Tag 2 (6cts.), 24, 24...

For some other examples of music that's largely, *but not entirely*, in chunks 
of 8 beats (or eight bars of triple meter), try listening to any of these while 
tapping your foot or fingers and counting along:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg0kfd7kow4
 Paul McCartney - When I'm 64

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33o32C0ogVM
 Julie Andrews - My Favorite Things

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww
 Nancy Sinatra - These Boots Are Made for Walkin'

So here's my question, for those of you who are more familiar with techno music 
than I am:  If you play a random track not already "vetted" for phrasing, if 
you find a place where there's sufficiently discernible phrasing to establish a 
starting point for your "mental metronome of 8 counts" (to quote Donna Hunt), 
if you use that mental metronome to carry you through a part where phrasing is 
less evident, and if you then get to another part with findable phrasing, how 
reliably (or not) can you expect that the phrases will still line up with your 
mental eight-counts?

--Jim

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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Donna Hunt via Callers]

 Yes, to what everyone said.
When I program for techno I try for specific 8 +8 counts throughout the dance 
or 4+4+8 in a phrase.  I've found that the 4+12 ct of a Balance and swing is 
usually cut short or a flowing phrase of an allemande/star promenade/butterfly 
whirl gets interpreted differently by each dancer.    Keep the dances easy and 
intuitive...dancers want to groove and not think too much.

When calling a techno, I've found that I have a mental metronome of 8 counts 
running through my brain in the background the entire night.  It's super easy 
to lose your place (and the dancers as well) especially if the music is a 
thumpy beat and not phrased at all.
I've also found techno to be mentally tiring (because of keeping track of the 
counts), and if the room is dark, visually challenging because you cannot see 
the end of the lines easily.  

Bring a light for your cards in case the organizers haven't provided enough 
light on stage.  A simple book light might be helpful, but make sure it doesn't 
"peek" over your notes or it will be in the dancers eyes.
 
Donna
Web Site:  donnahuntcaller.com
Email: dhuntdan...@aol.com
Cell:  215-565-6050


 
 
-Original Message-
From: Sivier, Jonathan E via Callers 
To: Shared Weight Callers' Listserv 
Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2019 7:17 pm
Subject: Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

    Keep calling.  My experience has been that techo music has plenty of 
beat and no phrasing.  So dancers don't know when to stop the current 
figure and start the next one.  Some figures like circles, stars and 
lines forward and back have a kind of natural timing so dances with 
those figures work well.  Some other figures such as heys, chains and 
swings are less well defined as far as timing goes, and dancers tend to 
rush heys and chains and go long on swings.  So the dancers will all 
take different amount of time for them.  This means that if you stop 
calling the various parts of the lines will start to diverge in where 
they are in the dance and soon there will be parts of the room dancing 
the A1 part while others places in the room they are dancing the A2 or 
even B1 part.  I think swings may be the biggest issue.  Everyone likes 
to swing and many dancers will go long on each swing, but they'll all go 
long by a different amount.

    Choose dances with figures that have really well-defined timing and 
don't stop calling and you will be OK.  You may be able to reduce the 
amount of calling, but you will probably need to say something from time 
to time to re-synchronize the dancers.

Jonathan

On 3/28/2019 4:13 PM, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote:
> Hey folks,
> 
> I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so 
> this weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno 
> differs from your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about 
> anything relating to dance choice and dance length.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Maia

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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Sivier, Jonathan E via Callers]

Keep calling.  My experience has been that techo music has plenty of 
beat and no phrasing.  So dancers don't know when to stop the current 
figure and start the next one.  Some figures like circles, stars and 
lines forward and back have a kind of natural timing so dances with 
those figures work well.  Some other figures such as heys, chains and 
swings are less well defined as far as timing goes, and dancers tend to 
rush heys and chains and go long on swings.  So the dancers will all 
take different amount of time for them.  This means that if you stop 
calling the various parts of the lines will start to diverge in where 
they are in the dance and soon there will be parts of the room dancing 
the A1 part while others places in the room they are dancing the A2 or 
even B1 part.  I think swings may be the biggest issue.  Everyone likes 
to swing and many dancers will go long on each swing, but they'll all go 
long by a different amount.

Choose dances with figures that have really well-defined timing and 
don't stop calling and you will be OK.  You may be able to reduce the 
amount of calling, but you will probably need to say something from time 
to time to re-synchronize the dancers.

Jonathan

On 3/28/2019 4:13 PM, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote:
> Hey folks,
> 
> I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so 
> this weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno 
> differs from your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about 
> anything relating to dance choice and dance length.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Maia

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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Yoyo Zhou via Callers]

Hi Maia,

Mostly I agree with Bob. I find that dance length isn't much different in
practice. No-walkthroughs should be fine under the same circumstances as
regular contras.

There are many reasons to choose easier dances for techno contras. The
music and lighting tend to push the balance of how dancers are feeling more
towards groovin' to the beat and away from mental gymnastics.

Music:
- Will you have good phrasing? Some techno DJs understand the importance of
16 and 64-count phrases. If you don't have that, you'll have to pay more
attention as the dance is going to keep the dancers on track, and sometimes
the phrasing will "feel off" by 8 beats, in which case you can adjust the
dance to match (if you don't, the dancers will adjust, but they'll find the
dance somewhat unsatisfying). Sometimes the dance will end in a weird place
(oh well).
- Make sure you know where the music starts the first time through - often
it's not the standard 4 potatoes. A good techno DJ will be able to tell you
for each set.

Lighting:
- Will it be dark? This makes it harder to see (both as a caller and a
dancer).
- I would probably not call anything that required a demo if it's dark.
(Some callers like to use demos to teach regular figures, e.g. hey for 4,
but I'd recommend teaching them a different way.)

Yoyo Zhou


On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 3:15 PM Bob via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Choose easy dances. The music is usually hard enough, and fun enough. Easy
> can allow for extra flourishes to add even more spice.
>
> Live or mixed recordings? If live then it should be perfectly square AABB.
> If mixed, the only thing you can count on is 8-beat phrases. Also if mixed
> you need to listen in advance to know how long the intro is for the first
> phrase, and keep focus on which phrase you’re in somehow.
>
> The specific questions about demos and walk through, yes, sure, depends on
> the crowd.
>
> \Bob
> Techno DJ/caller
>
> On Mar 28, 2019, at 17:17, Maia McCormick via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Ah, more specific questions!
>
> - have you found on-the-floor demos doable at techno, or should I not even
> try?
> - techno no-walk-through's: do they work?
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:13 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
>
>> Hey folks,
>>
>> I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so
>> this weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno differs
>> from your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about anything
>> relating to dance choice and dance length.)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Maia
>>
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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Bob via Callers]

Choose easy dances. The music is usually hard enough, and fun enough. Easy can 
allow for extra flourishes to add even more spice.

Live or mixed recordings? If live then it should be perfectly square AABB. If 
mixed, the only thing you can count on is 8-beat phrases. Also if mixed you 
need to listen in advance to know how long the intro is for the first phrase, 
and keep focus on which phrase you’re in somehow. 

The specific questions about demos and walk through, yes, sure, depends on the 
crowd. 

\Bob
Techno DJ/caller 

> On Mar 28, 2019, at 17:17, Maia McCormick via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ah, more specific questions!
> 
> - have you found on-the-floor demos doable at techno, or should I not even 
> try?
> - techno no-walk-through's: do they work?
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:13 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:
>> Hey folks,
>> 
>> I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so this 
>> weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno differs from 
>> your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about anything relating 
>> to dance choice and dance length.)
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Maia
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Re: [Callers] Calling techno?

[Maia McCormick via Callers]

Ah, more specific questions!

- have you found on-the-floor demos doable at techno, or should I not even
try?
- techno no-walk-through's: do they work?

On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 5:13 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so
> this weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno differs
> from your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about anything
> relating to dance choice and dance length.)
>
> Cheers,
> Maia
>
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[Callers] Calling techno?

[Maia McCormick via Callers]

Hey folks,

I haven't called all that many techno contras, and I'm slated to do so this
weekend. Any tips or things to keep in mind about how techno differs from
your standard contra evening? (Particularly curious about anything relating
to dance choice and dance length.)

Cheers,
Maia
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