Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[jim saxe via Callers]

On Apr 11, 2018, at 5:18 AM, Tom Hinds  wrote:

> Jim, maybe the meager response was because you didn't give an example.  And 
> what does "the DL;TR crowd" mean?


I didn't give an explicit example in my 2014 message

https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/msg07945.html

but I did go into more detail about the general pattern than in my
recent posting.  And I fear that as a result some people glanced
at my message, decided it was too long, and didn't read it.
(TL;DR = "too long; didn't read".)  In our current thread, Yoyo
pointed out that "The Hobbit" is an example, and he identified
the three different points where neutral dancers reenter the set.

A simpler example is "Lisa's Contra", mentioned earlier in this
thread by Mark Hillegonds.  Here, with a little reformatting, is
how Mark notated it:

 Lisa’s Contra
 by Tom Hinds
 Contra/Improper/Int

 A1 ---
 (16)  Neighbor B & S
 A2 ---
 (4,4)  Pass thru to a wave, Wave balance
 (2,4,2)  Walk forward to person in next wave
 (don't take hands),  Gypsy R 1/2,  Walk back
 to re-form original wave, but facing opposite
 direction (N in RH, Gents LH)
 B1 ---
 (4,4)  Wave balance, Gents alle L 1/2
 (8)  Partner swing
 B2 ---
 (6,2)  Circle L 3/4, Pass thru up and down
 (8)  Next Neighbor do si do

[For Tom's original notation and notes, see page 15 of his book
_Bad Hair Decade_.]

This dance includes just one out-of-minor-set action:  In the
A2 part, you briefly leave your current neighbors to gypsy (or
"walk around" or whatever you want to call it) with your previous
neighbor.  The result is that when you get to the top or bottom
of the line, you experience THREE pairs of transitions out and
back in, as follows:

 * In B2 of some round of the dance, you pass through up or
   down and the here's no new neighbor to dance with.
   [So this is the first time you go out.]

 * In A2 of the next round, you briefly come back in [for
   the first time] to g your previous neighbor.


 * Then you immediately go back out [for the second time].

 * In B2, a new neighbor approaches and you come in [2nd
   time] starting with the do-si-do.


 * In A2 of the next round, you step forward from your
   wave and there's no old neighbor coming toward you
   along the line.  [You've just gone out for the third
   time.]  You could dance around a "ghost" or you could
   treat your partner (across the set) as a neighbor.

 * Then you return to a new wave with the neighbors you
   just briefly left.  [That's the third time you come
   back in.  You now remain in until you get to the
   other end of the set or the music stops.]

I could give other examples, but really all you need to do is
pick almost any dance where you go out of your minor set (to
dance with a previous neighbor, future neighbor, or shadow)
and then return.  If you analyze the end effects carefully,
you'll usually find that dancers go out (become neutral) and 
come back in at least three times.  It's actually harder to
find examples where they go out and come back in exactly
twice.

Often, the thing to do in order to come back in in the right
position is so obvious to experienced contra dancers that
we hardly notice there's a decision to be made.  We just do
the obvious/habitual thing and it turns out to be right.  I
think that's part of the reason that the commonness of the
(out-in)x3 pattern could go unnoticed for so long by so many
people.  I don't know of anyone who wrote about it before I
noticed it in 2013 (if anyone does, please tell me).  And by
then I must have experienced it myself hundreds of times, if
not a thousand or more in 30+ years of dancing, without
really noticing.

--Jim

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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Jim, maybe the meager response was because you didn't give an example.  And 
what does "the DL;TR crowd" mean?

Tom

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 10, 2018, at 9:45 PM, jim saxe via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On Apr 6, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I recall reading something, possibly from Jim Saxe on this list (and maybe 
>> from Larry Jennings?), about how in most dances without out-of-minor-set 
>> interactions, you come back into the set ... once - after progressing to the 
>> end. But in dances like The Hobbit, where you leave the minor set once, you 
>> actually come back in to the set 3 times. ...
> 
> That would have been from me in a message to this list on July 9,
> 2014 with the subject "An observation about end effects -- becoming
> neutral three times at each end".
> 
> https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/msg07945.html
> 
> Based on the meager response at the time, I fear that few readers
> got my point (though it looks like Yoyo was one who did).  For the
> TL;DR crowd, here's the short version:
> 
> In almost every contra with even a simple out-of-minor-set
> action, dancers who reach the top or bottom will become
> neutral and return to the body of the set not twice but at
> least *THREE* different times.
> 
> I'm not going to give an example.  I think that anyone who picks
> a few examples of dances with out-of-minor-set action and actually
> takes the trouble to trace the end effects carefully will see, now
> that I've pointed it out, that what I've said is true.  And anyone
> who won't take that trouble to do that probably also wouldn't take
> the trouble to study my analysis of an example if I gave one.
> 
> In case anyone's wondering about my terminology, I won't try to
> give definitions of "out-of-minor-set action" and "neutral" that
> cover every unusual situation, but here are some remarks about
> common situations that should make my meaning clear:
> 
>If you leave your partner to dance with a shadow and then
>return to your partner, or if you leave a neighbor to dance
>with a future neighbor or a previous neighbor and then return
>to the first neighbor, I count that as an out-of-minor-set
>action.  If a dance merely has you and your partner progress
>to new neighbors in the middle of the tune (instead of at the
>transition from B2 to A1), and you stay in that new foursome
>until the same point in the next round of the dance, then I
>don't count it as out-of-minor-set action.  I also don't count
>merely taking hands in long lines with a shadow or a past or
>future neighbor while you still have your partner or your
>current neighbor in the other hand.
> 
>If dancers are doing something in groups of four, I count any
>dancers near the top or bottom to the set who aren't part of
>a complete foursome as neutral.  This includes the case where
>a pair dancers stand still during a diagonal ladies' chain
>or a diagonal right and left through because there's nobody
>to do it with.
> 
>If most of the dancers are doing a two-person figure with
>partners, neighbors, or shadows on the sides of the set,
>then I count as neutral any dancers at the top or bottom
>who are (1) standing still, (2) "dancing with ghosts", or
>(3) dancing the figure with someone *across* the set
>(possibly a partner or shadow acting as a neighbor).
> 
> --Jim
> 
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[jim saxe via Callers]

On Apr 6, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers 
 wrote:

> I recall reading something, possibly from Jim Saxe on this list (and maybe 
> from Larry Jennings?), about how in most dances without out-of-minor-set 
> interactions, you come back into the set ... once - after progressing to the 
> end. But in dances like The Hobbit, where you leave the minor set once, you 
> actually come back in to the set 3 times. ...

That would have been from me in a message to this list on July 9,
2014 with the subject "An observation about end effects -- becoming
neutral three times at each end".

 https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/msg07945.html

Based on the meager response at the time, I fear that few readers
got my point (though it looks like Yoyo was one who did).  For the
TL;DR crowd, here's the short version:

 In almost every contra with even a simple out-of-minor-set
 action, dancers who reach the top or bottom will become
 neutral and return to the body of the set not twice but at
 least *THREE* different times.

I'm not going to give an example.  I think that anyone who picks
a few examples of dances with out-of-minor-set action and actually
takes the trouble to trace the end effects carefully will see, now
that I've pointed it out, that what I've said is true.  And anyone
who won't take that trouble to do that probably also wouldn't take
the trouble to study my analysis of an example if I gave one.

In case anyone's wondering about my terminology, I won't try to
give definitions of "out-of-minor-set action" and "neutral" that
cover every unusual situation, but here are some remarks about
common situations that should make my meaning clear:

If you leave your partner to dance with a shadow and then
return to your partner, or if you leave a neighbor to dance
with a future neighbor or a previous neighbor and then return
to the first neighbor, I count that as an out-of-minor-set
action.  If a dance merely has you and your partner progress
to new neighbors in the middle of the tune (instead of at the
transition from B2 to A1), and you stay in that new foursome
until the same point in the next round of the dance, then I
don't count it as out-of-minor-set action.  I also don't count
merely taking hands in long lines with a shadow or a past or
future neighbor while you still have your partner or your
current neighbor in the other hand.

If dancers are doing something in groups of four, I count any
dancers near the top or bottom to the set who aren't part of
a complete foursome as neutral.  This includes the case where
a pair dancers stand still during a diagonal ladies' chain
or a diagonal right and left through because there's nobody
to do it with.

If most of the dancers are doing a two-person figure with
partners, neighbors, or shadows on the sides of the set,
then I count as neutral any dancers at the top or bottom
who are (1) standing still, (2) "dancing with ghosts", or
(3) dancing the figure with someone *across* the set
(possibly a partner or shadow acting as a neighbor).

--Jim

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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[Colin Hume via Callers]

On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 12:07:55 -0400, K Panton via Callers wrote:
> Thanks to Yoyo for setting me straight, it looks like "treat P as N" does 
> work on The Hobbit. I stand corrected.

I'm relieved that I don't have to introduce a 6th rule!  I'll certainly try 
this dance out when I get a chance.

Colin Hume
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[K Panton via Callers]

Thanks, Yoyo.

I am causing myself serious brain injury mind-dancing this one.

In the end, I agree with you that treating your P as N works in this dance.

There remains another issue of locating error-recovery opportunities (and
possible caller interventions!) which I will look at (and NOT report back)

Ken



Yoyo Zhou via Callers Fri, 06 Apr 2018 15:50:03 -0700

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 2:52 PM, K Panton via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

In The Hobbit, here are the 3 places you come back in. Let's call the top

couple "couple 1", and if someone is waiting out above them, call them

"couple 0".

0. as couple 1 (with nobody out), top of A1

The start of the dance - it's a regular improper dance. Couple 1 should

come in as usual (gents left, ladies right).



1. as couple 1 (with nobody out), B1: pass through to original neighbor

If there's no couple 0, couple 1 goes out in the pull by in A1. We can

figure out that couple 1 should come in as usual (gents left, ladies right).



2. as couple 0, A1: pull by to previous neighbor

This is the couple that just went out at the top. They have to come back in

with gents on the right, ladies on the left! However - this is the key - if

they treat their partner as neighbor at the end (box the gnat, pull by),

they end up in the correct place.



All this is to say that the advice for this dance should be "dance with

your partner as neighbor at the end", because it turns out that works for

all the situations here.
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[Yoyo Zhou via Callers]

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 2:52 PM, K Panton via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Warning: rabbit hole ahead.
>
> Colin: I read your text for your workshop. All useful stuff and you do say
> more than "treat your partner as a neighbour".
>
> Re Michael Fuerst's quote, I agree that end-effects are what they are and
> they are not (necessarily?) the point of the dance, but they sometimes must
> be dealt with head-on. Example: I have tried to make any sense of the end
> effects in the dance The Hobbit http://www.quiteapair.us/calli
> ng/acdol/dance/acd_283.html . I think it's a great dance - if you can
> avoid the ends - but I'll be [darned] if I can make it around the end
> successfully. I've tried calling it, walking thru at a callers workshop
> with several experienced dancers and none of us could make sense of the
> end-effects. We were missing some magical key to understanding (perhaps
> guarded by Smaug). "Go where you are needed" wasn't going to work. Nor were
> the other rules. Sometimes, it seems, the end-effects must be taught just
> as the dance. No easy feat.
>
In a workshop setting, you probably didn't have as many dancers as a normal
contra set and ran into end effects all the time; this can definitely push
the experience for the dancers from manageable (where people in the middle
can help out the end-effected) to unrecoverable (where everyone is lost),
in my experience.

Here's what Larry Jennings wrote in Give and Take in the theory section
(ML23, End Effects):

"In most cases, however, a neutral twosome should position themselves
across from each other so that the set will have alternating men and women
as the twosome gets reincorporated. If it is not obvious how to plan for
this, it is usually sufficient for the twosome to *scramble* to get the
disposition of dancers at the end of the set as much like the rest of the
set as possible."

This is fine advice for 95% of dances, but it can be challenging to figure
out on the fly.


I recall reading something, possibly from Jim Saxe on this list (and maybe
from Larry Jennings?), about how in most dances without out-of-minor-set
interactions, you come back into the set (and have no full minor set of 4
dancers) once - after progressing to the end. But in dances like The
Hobbit, where you leave the minor set once, you actually come back in to
the set 3 times. So the question for us as callers is, how do you
succinctly teach how to handle all of these situations? Dancers often can't
remember 1 instruction for end effects; 3 is right out.

In The Hobbit, here are the 3 places you come back in. Let's call the top
couple "couple 1", and if someone is waiting out above them, call them
"couple 0".

0. as couple 1 (with nobody out), top of A1
The start of the dance - it's a regular improper dance. Couple 1 should
come in as usual (gents left, ladies right).

1. as couple 1 (with nobody out), B1: pass through to original neighbor
If there's no couple 0, couple 1 goes out in the pull by in A1. We can
figure out that couple 1 should come in as usual (gents left, ladies right).

2. as couple 0, A1: pull by to previous neighbor
This is the couple that just went out at the top. They have to come back in
with gents on the right, ladies on the left! However - this is the key - if
they treat their partner as neighbor at the end (box the gnat, pull by),
they end up in the correct place.


All this is to say that the advice for this dance should be "dance with
your partner as neighbor at the end", because it turns out that works for
all the situations here.

Yoyo Zhou
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[Don Veino via Callers]

Hi Ken,

I've never called this one, but this is my take on the end effects from a
quick review (what the heck - the worst that could happen is I'm wrong!).

-Don

Notation is "DV1" (my initials, first cycle, assuming full/even sets) and
"DV2" (second cycle). If starting with a couple out, flip the cycles at
that end.
The Hobbitby Melanie Axel-Lute
Intermediate - Dup imp
*A1* (8)   Neighbor balance and box the gnat
DV1 => Still in same minor set, swapped place with N
DV2 => Couples out at end awaiting next move
(8)   Pull by with right hand to previous neighbor; with that one,
allemande left once around
DV1 => All have de-progressed one minor set temporarily. If kicked "out" at
the end, stay in place... don't do anything at end (or could allemande
ghost or partner 1x back to place and then wait there)
DV2 => end couples are temporarily back in the dance and participate
through the B1 first move.
*A2* (8)   Women (in new group of four) allemande right once and a half
DV1 => Gents are still on their home side, Ladies have crossed set
(8)   Partner swing
DV1 => all on Gent's home side, still de-progressed 1 minor set
*B1* (8)   Circle left 3/4 and pass through to original neighbor
DV1 => All are back at original minor set, nobody "out" now
DV2 => "out" couple is once again out, stay in place.
(8)   Swing original neighbor
DV1 => Back to standard improper home side, 1s below 2s (progressed)
*B2* (8)   Long lines forward and back
(8)   Lefthand star
DV1 => Puts end couple really "out" and they should cross over at this
point.
DV2 => "out" couple coming back into the dance for real but will be subject
to temporary ejection again (stay in place when it happens).

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 5:52 PM, K Panton via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Warning: rabbit hole ahead.
>
> Colin: I read your text for your workshop. All useful stuff and you do say
> more than "treat your partner as a neighbour".
>
> Re Michael Fuerst's quote, I agree that end-effects are what they are and
> they are not (necessarily?) the point of the dance, but they sometimes must
> be dealt with head-on. Example: I have tried to make any sense of the end
> effects in the dance The Hobbit http://www.quiteapair.us/calli
> ng/acdol/dance/acd_283.html . I think it's a great dance - if you can
> avoid the ends - but I'll be [darned] if I can make it around the end
> successfully. I've tried calling it, walking thru at a callers workshop
> with several experienced dancers and none of us could make sense of the
> end-effects. We were missing some magical key to understanding (perhaps
> guarded by Smaug). "Go where you are needed" wasn't going to work. Nor were
> the other rules. Sometimes, it seems, the end-effects must be taught just
> as the dance. No easy feat.
>
>
> Colin Hume via Callers
> 
>  Thu, 05 Apr 2018 02:42:50 -0700
> 
>
> I'm not sure that dancing with ghosts is the best way to deal with end-effects
> - I prefer "treat your partner as a neighbour".
>
> I have a whole section of notes on End-effects at  
> https://colinhume.com/dtendeffects.htm
>
> Colin Hume
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[K Panton via Callers]

Warning: rabbit hole ahead.

Colin: I read your text for your workshop. All useful stuff and you do say
more than "treat your partner as a neighbour".

Re Michael Fuerst's quote, I agree that end-effects are what they are and
they are not (necessarily?) the point of the dance, but they sometimes must
be dealt with head-on. Example: I have tried to make any sense of the end
effects in the dance The Hobbit
http://www.quiteapair.us/calling/acdol/dance/acd_283.html . I think it's a
great dance - if you can avoid the ends - but I'll be [darned] if I can
make it around the end successfully. I've tried calling it, walking thru at
a callers workshop with several experienced dancers and none of us could
make sense of the end-effects. We were missing some magical key to
understanding (perhaps guarded by Smaug). "Go where you are needed" wasn't
going to work. Nor were the other rules. Sometimes, it seems, the
end-effects must be taught just as the dance. No easy feat.


Colin Hume via Callers

 Thu, 05 Apr 2018 02:42:50 -0700


I'm not sure that dancing with ghosts is the best way to deal with end-effects
- I prefer "treat your partner as a neighbour".

I have a whole section of notes on End-effects at
https://colinhume.com/dtendeffects.htm

Colin Hume
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[Colin Hume via Callers]

On Thu, 05 Apr 2018 23:08:43 +, Jack Mitchell wrote:
> That works a lot of the time, but it really doesn't work in dances like Ken 
> is talking about. Dance like song in
> the night (gene Hubert), or for other dances where you go out and then in and 
> then out, not necessarily with your
> partner.

"Song in the night" was the second dance I called in my End-effects workshop, 
and you're right that "Treat your partner as a 
neighbour" doesn't work here.  I do mention "dancing with ghosts" a few lines 
later, and generalise the rule to "Keep doing as 
much of the dance as you can", and I agree that here you need to do a star 
three-quarters with ghosts.

On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 23:34:02 -0400, K Panton via Callers wrote:
> "Happy as a Cold Pig in Warm Mud" would be another where a star with ghosts 
> would be on offer.

Here I think it's easier to do a left-hand turn with your shadow.

The really important thing is to get dancers _thinking_ about end-effects, 
rather than just reaching the end of the set and 
switching their brains off!

Colin Hume
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[K Panton via Callers]

Thanks, Mark.

Yes, Lisa's Contra would do the trick with a simple out and back.

"Happy as a Cold Pig in Warm Mud" would be another where a star with ghosts
would be on offer. One notch up in complexity.

https://www.cambridgefolk.org.uk/contra/dances/midwest_folklore/happy_as_a_cold_pig.html

Ken


Mark Hillegonds via Callers

 Wed, 04 Apr 2018 18:51:22 -0700


Ken,

I just happened to be pulling dances for an upcoming gig. One of the dances
I selected is Lisa's Contra (Tom Hinds) that has an out and back in A2 that
may work for your purposes.

Looking forward to seeing other suggestions.
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[K Panton via Callers]

Right you are, Jack, though I want to read Colin's post in detail; I've had
a skim and he's put in much thought.

In the dance that I'm hoping to call (Mad Slice) the travelling is actually
done not with partner but with a neighbour with whom is visited Shadow 1
and shadow 2. At various points before finally getting clear of the end,
neigbbour is at least shadow 1 and probably shadow 2 but I need to make my
head hurt some more to get a full understanding. So far, though, it looks
as though dancing with ghosts should make it simpler and, in spite of there
being two shadows, it is quite straight forward to work around the ends and
get back successfully to one's partner.

Song in the Night is too complex for my crowd at my skill level as caller,
though I can see it being a useful ghost dance, as you suggest.

Ken


Jack Mitchell via Callers

 Thu, 05 Apr 2018 16:09:06 -0700


That works a lot of the time, but it really doesn’t work in dances like Ken
is talking about. Dance like song in the night (gene Hubert), or for other
dances where you go out and then in and then out, not necessarily with your
partner.
On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 5:42 AM Colin Hume via Callers
 wrote:

> I'm not sure that dancing with ghosts is the best way to deal with
> end-effects - I prefer "treat your partner as a neighbour".
>
> I have a whole section of notes on End-effects at
> https://colinhume.com/dtendeffects.htm
>
> Colin Hume
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>
-- 
Jack Mitchell
Durham, NC
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[K Panton via Callers]

Thanks, Colin.

I came across your notes yesterday afternoon and will have a read through
as soon as I can.

Ken


Colin Hume via Callers

 Thu, 05 Apr 2018 02:42:50 -0700


I'm not sure that dancing with ghosts is the best way to deal with end-effects
- I prefer "treat your partner as a neighbour".

I have a whole section of notes on End-effects at
https://colinhume.com/dtendeffects.htm

Colin Hume
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[Jack Mitchell via Callers]

That works a lot of the time, but it really doesn’t work in dances like Ken
is talking about. Dance like song in the night (gene Hubert), or for other
dances where you go out and then in and then out, not necessarily with your
partner.
On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 5:42 AM Colin Hume via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I'm not sure that dancing with ghosts is the best way to deal with
> end-effects - I prefer "treat your partner as a neighbour".
>
> I have a whole section of notes on End-effects at
> https://colinhume.com/dtendeffects.htm
>
> Colin Hume
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-- 
Jack Mitchell
Durham, NC
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[Colin Hume via Callers]

I'm not sure that dancing with ghosts is the best way to deal with end-effects 
- I prefer "treat your partner as a neighbour".

I have a whole section of notes on End-effects at  
https://colinhume.com/dtendeffects.htm

Colin Hume
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Re: [Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[Mark Hillegonds via Callers]

Ken,

I just happened to be pulling dances for an upcoming gig. One of the dances
I selected is Lisa's Contra (Tom Hinds) that has an out and back in A2 that
may work for your purposes.

Looking forward to seeing other suggestions.

Lisa’s Contra
by Tom Hinds
Contra/Improper/Int

A1 ---
(16)  Neighbor B & S
A2 ---
(4,4)  Pass thru to a wave, Wave balance
(2,4,2)  Walk forward to person in next wave (don't take hands),  Gypsy R
1/2,  Walk back to re-form original wave, but facing opposite direction (N
in RH, Gents LH)
B1 ---
(4,4)  Wave balance, Gents alle L 1/2
(8)  Partner swing
B2 ---
(6,2)  Circle L 3/4, Pass thru up and down
(8)  Next Neighbor do si do

-- 
*Mark Hillegonds*

Philly, PA
Cell:  734-756-8441
Email:  mark.hillego...@gmail.com
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[Callers] Great dances for learning how to dance with ghosts?

[K Panton via Callers]

I'm planning to include, in an upcoming evening, a dance with some moderate
(from a beginner perspective) end-effects. Preceding that, I'd like to get
the dancers accustomed to dancing with ghosts with a view to making the
end-effects make sense or, at least, be less of a concern.

I can think of a few dances in which there are easy-intros to end effects
(a move involving a an out-and-back with a shadow, for example (e.g. The
Young Adult Rose)) but I'm more interested in dances that callers may have
in mind that dance well with ghosts.

Maybe I could write a purpose-written dance with the name "The Ghosts and
Mrs. Muir". :)

(Dating myself)

Ken Panton
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