Re: [Catalyst] RFC on how to structure controllers
13.06.2006 21:42 A. Pagaltzis: > * Gert Burger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-06-13 12:35]: >> I would like some ideas on how todo the following in cat. > > In general, the web way is to make as much state as possible > explicit in the URI. Avoid the use of sessions and cookies > wherever possible, try your darndest to use information from the > URI instead. (Also make sure to return appropriate HTTP status > codes when handling arbitrary URIs, instead of just saying 200 OK > to everything.) Why would you *want* to avoid sessions? It's much easier to manage sessions than complicated URI conventions. This blog post by Avi Bryant describes it very well imo. http://smallthought.com/avi/?p=14 "There are 3 models: Need quick response, but don't need back button or bookmark: Ajax Need back button, don't need bookmark: Continuation/Callback Need bookmarking or other external access: REST" > Whether you put the information in the URI into the query string > or into the path is not that important in terms of webarch; the > main advantage of using the path part is simply that it looks > prettier. But why would a multi page wizard or ajax requests to have bookmarkable URIs? -- Sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] RFC on how to structure controllers
14.06.2006 20:26 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 06/14/2006 01:11:34 PM: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 06/14/2006 11:23:16 AM: >> >>> * [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-06-14 >>> 17:10]: I mean does it ever make sense to blindly allow users to jump into a random spot of a 3 or 4 page billing/order "wizard"? >>> >>> I spent 15 minutes trying to think of a way to respond to this, >>> but I really can?t. There are many concepts that play into REST >>> app design to sum them up in a few words. All I can say is that >>> it?s nothing to do with bookmarking. (Or only very tangentially.) >>> >> >> True, also very little to do with web app design, web services >> are another beast. Even if you are RESTing your web app to >> make services available in the future, there are still many >> areas that would need to be restricted or exposed >> differently for said services. >> >> REST layout for an app that is not designed to be a web service seems >> silly. >> > > Let me expand here cause rereading this I did not convey my thought. > > REST layout, nix session data, being pushed for webapps without > thinking and planning about bookmarking seems silly. We are all > talking web applications here right? That is how I read this thread. I think Aristotle is talking about web-services while we talk web-apps. We want to build a nice responsive gui while he tries to build a http based api. -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
Jonathan Rockway wrote: Seems like a waste anyway. Is Perl really going to win a competition sponsored by Zend? (playing into the hands of Zend's marketing department)++ # cough There will be no overall winner, just one per platform. So the more teams your platform has the better you look. Having only one team for Perl is quite bad, especially since one of the organizers happens to be the iX magazine (http://www.heise.de/ix/), which has a big influence in the german speaking world. :/ -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
Jonathan Rockway wrote: Yeah, I know *I'm* going to abandon Perl as a result of the contest. I mean, Perl's not cool anymore right? Speed and features are for Web 1.0 losers! Yeah, lets just ignore marketing completely, who needs new users, they are just annoying anyway. :-) -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
Tobias Kremer wrote: Today I was in a meeting with one of Germany's top twenty internet agencies to speak about the future of our (home-brewed Perl-based) community app. I spoke to the person in charge of technology who of course tried to persuade me that Java and .Net/C# is the way to go. Even worse, he was convinced that Perl has no object- orientation features at all! He was surprised when I told him about the CPAN and Perl's flexible object capabilities. Unfortunately this is not an isolated case. Yes, thats quite common sadly and caused only by lack of marketing. One of Germany's most successful web portals serving several hundred million page impressions per month with Perl recently started hiring Java developers. It's so absurd when you think about it, from script language back to compiled mess? The opposite should be the case! We really have to start learning from the Ruby folks, take a look at these two books, it's pure marketing genius. From Java To Ruby: Things Every Manager Should Know (http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/fr_j2r/index.html) Rails For Java Developers (http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/fr_r4j/index.html) I hate to say this, but Perl is really lacking some sort of marketing. To my mind Catalyst could be the new killer-app that has the potential to resurrect our favorite language. But not if we can't get the word out. This is really frustrating. Catalyst's website is one big mess. Go to the wiki section and you get gazillions of links on one page. Click on documentation and you receive ugly POD pages. This is just not up to standards set by other frameworks. Don't get me wrong: The content and documentation is better than most other frameworks but the presentation just sucks. I recently met another fellow perl dude and we're currently brainstorming what has to change to make Perl and the Catalyst project more appealing to the average CTO, technical lead, dude-who-is-in-charge- but-thinks-perl-is-dead :) I completely agree, but you don't get (good) marketing for free, a company or The Perl Foundation would have to invest money in it. Take a look at Java, PHP and Ruby, all the marketing initiatives can be traced back to a few smart companies. (Please take a few minutes and think about it before flaming me, thanks) P.S. I read that the upcoming issue of the iX magazine will feature an article about web development with Catalyst ... Just seen that too, will be fun to read. (http://www.heise.de/ix/vorschau.shtml) :) -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
Brandon Black wrote: On 11/30/06, Alvar Freude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Having more teams should be good for several reasons: we can show that Perl isn't dead (at the moment it looks half-dead), and there are more options to choose from. IMHO, Perl does *not* look half dead. If a lot of people outside the Perl community say it looks half dead, then it does to them. Ignoring and/or denying doesn't make it better, you have to accept the feedback and react to it. The rate of CPAN modules uploaded per year continues to rise, anyone could name a litany of high and low profile sites that still run perl, and the perl job market is great. Active cutting-edge development continues in both p5 and of course the various p6-related efforts. Perl has never been a slick, well-marketed language, but it is still the duct-tape of the Internet. But the problem is nobody outside the Perl community notices it. And p5 development is not as active as you might think, just take a look at the comments under http://use.perl.org/~sri/journal/31519. The quote "Perl5 is not dead, it's just very, very stable" sums it up quite well. In spite of Perl's complete lack of kissing up to the "Enterprise" world, it's still an A-rated language on the TIOBE index: http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index But it's losing a lot of ground to Python and Ruby recently. (http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/04/state_of_the_computer_book_mar_3.html) -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web developmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
Jonathan Rockway wrote: Sebastian Riedel wrote: Tobias Kremer wrote: Take a look at Java, PHP and Ruby, all the marketing initiatives can be traced back to a few smart companies. What has the marketing gotten the community? PHP and Ruby both suck in comparison to Perl (features / unicode / modules / speed / knowing wtf === really means), despite the fact that money is being poured into both of those languages by apparently-profitable companies. It sounds to me like they're spending all their money creatively lying about the facts, whereas the p(?:[56]|arrot)-porters are actually improving their languages. You just gave a perfect example why Perl needs marketing. :) It is better for a lot of things, but the problem is nobody outside the Perl community knows! (As for Ruby, they are absolutely aware of their weaknesses and work very hard on fixing them. YARV the new virtual machine has just been merged into the ruby repository.) I for one don't really care if perl is "number one". It's already better -- what more do you really want? Thats a bit short sighted, without new developers learning Perl you'll have a lack sooner or later. -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
Jonathan Rockway wrote: In fact, P5P has more traffic than all the Perl6 lists combined. My perl6 folder has 163 unread messages, and p5p has 754. (Yes, I'm a bit behind.) Maybe it's just me, but i wouldn't consider that a good thing. :( -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Last Chance / Last Day: Web development platform contestand Perl / Catalyst
apv wrote: The last two big companies I worked for were both moving away from Perl. One of them was Amazon.com (I known there are still a few boosters and projects for Perl there but as a whole the company has become quite anti-Perl and has been rewriting everything in Java it can get budget money for). It isn't because Perl isn't useful, Perl helped build both of the companies, but because it has an image of not being up to the task. Sure Perl's not dead but that's at least 100 high paying, high profile Perl jobs in my town alone that are gone. Not because Perl sucks but because a lot of people think it does. Funny you mention Amazon switching to Java. I would expect more Ruby projects from them since the Jeff Bezos / 37signals deal. http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives2/bezos_expeditions_invests_in_37signals.php -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Last Chance / Last Day: Webdevelopmentplatformcontestand Perl / Catalyst
Octavian Rasnita wrote: So I still believe in Catalyst, but my opinion is that "The elegant framework" should first prove that it is really elegant. That slogan was chosen at a different time, long ago, i don't think it applies anymore. -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] old versions of Catalyst on CPAN
Jonathan Rockway wrote: Is anyone confused by the old versions of Catalyst on CPAN? Everything I hear says yes, but the author of the old versions wishes to have a public discussion before deleting the modules. You misunderstood me there, i will not delete the old versions since i like being able to link directly to old versions of modules like this. (which i did quite a lot) http://cpansearch.perl.org/~sri/Catalyst-3.00/lib/Catalyst.pm It's one of the best features of cpan imo. I agree that Catalyst and Catalyst-Dev had to be split, but why did you rename the core dist to Catalyst-Runtime in the first place? Just keeping the name Catalyst instead would have bypassed the cpan bug (which it obviously is) and saved you from a lot of trouble. -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] old versions of Catalyst on CPAN
Jonathan Rockway wrote: The question I have is why are you linking to Catalyst 3.00? It's not. If there's something you want to point to from another document (resume? blog?), then perhaps you should just post it on your own website? Then you can put it in a "look at this code I wrote, it's interesting" context instead of "download this, newbie!" context. Because i don't want to break existing links and cpansearch just works, no need for me to reinvent that wheel. The CPAN is about community, so it's better to respect the wishes of the community rather than your own personal tastes. If the CPAN community is so concerned about this, why is versioning still a feature? As long as it's there i will make use of it. I personally consider having any version other than the latest available on CPAN a bug. I don't want to waste the mirror's space (these people are mirroring CPAN for free; I want it to be easy for them), nor do I want to confuse people looking for the version they should be starting with. Maybe you should take a look at the cpan mirrors, quite a lot only keep the most recent versions anyway. Advanced users know to look for old versions on the backpan. Backpan != CPAN-Search Readers of your blog or whatever would appreciate that you just cite code in an inline snippet rather than via a link to the CPAN. Everyone wins. : You don't know all my readers personally, do you? P.S.: You didn't answer the question from my previous post, why should i nuke my cpan directory just because you made a naming mistake? -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] old versions of Catalyst on CPAN
Jonathan Rockway wrote: Because you want Catalyst to succeed, and be as intuitive as possible for new users? I would like that. I detect (from the tone of your recent posts to the list) that you really want to "hurt" Catalyst and Perl, and you're hanging on to the one piece of leverage you have. I suppose that's fine, but maybe you should add an AnnoCPAN annotation to your old modules along the lines of "this is not here for you to download, it's so I can feel good about myself" or something. That way it would be clear to new users that haven't had to deal with the exciting Catalyst politics yet. Actually, it would be more constructive to funnel your hatered into contributing to some competetor of Catalyst, rather than just being an ass on CPAN and the mailing list. Sorry, not interested in flamewars. -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: old versions of Catalyst on CPAN
Jonathan Rockway wrote: Well, I hadn't heard of Catalyst at that time, so I didn't have much say in the matter. Maybe it would be more productive to let the developers that made the change answer then? That said, the reasoning for the name change, I believe, was because there was a nice falling out between the people working on Catalyst, you, and the PAUSE admins. In order to ensure that the Catalyst Core Team would continue to have the ability to update Catalyst without your permission, which you refused to give, Catalyst had to be renamed (PAUSE indexer technicality).If you had just turned over permission immediately and irrevocably, then a rename wouldn't have been necessary. Thats completely untrue, the split (and renaming) happened in July, http://lists.scsys.co.uk/pipermail/catalyst/2006-July/008611.html but the permissions were solved back in May. http://lists.rawmode.org/pipermail/catalyst/2006-May/007250.html In fact, the View::TT maintainership was never given to the Core Team, and that's why TT has had that annoying "Coldn't render ... " bug for so long. We wanted to fix it, but we didn't have Your Holy Permission to do so. View::TT was never part of the core dist (and in turn the agreement), why would i just give away all my Perl modules? That bug you mention was caused by your changes to the Catalyst internals if i remember correctly... Details: http://lists.rawmode.org/pipermail/catalyst/2006-May/007250.html Anyway, I find it interesting that you have to ask me why the rename happened. It seems from that thread and other evidence that you were slightly involved. Hopefully this description refreshes your memory. If only you had read it... P.S.: Do i get flamed because i mentioned in #catalyst that i'm using Ruby for now until Perl6 gets released? :( -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Wikis
Octavian Rasnita wrote: I have visited http://www.phpwiki.org/ and I have read the Text formatting rules sections, but I haven't seen anything about tables. Now I've read it again, and I still cannot find something about tables. Am I looking in a wrong place? Learn2Google (seriously) :) http://www.google.com/search?q=phpwiki+formatting+tables and highlighted (just in case you still can't find it) http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:s4v4F6g17pcJ:brainyplanet.com/index.php/TextFormattingRules+phpwiki+formatting+tables&hl=de&gl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1 -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] question from tutorial - does creating HTML in a controller using HTML::Widget violate MVC?
Hermida, Leandro wrote: I thought the tutorial was absolutely great - things that I had in the past spent hours developing myself are practically plug and play and it gives you a nice taste of how powerful Catalyst is! One question about the tutorial though, doesn't building "presentation" material inside the controller using HTML::Widget so of break the MVC concept? After reading the Catalyst intro and about MVC I thought I wouldn't be writing anything HTML or presentation specific in the M or the C parts, only in the V which are the TT files. Do I have something wrong in my thinking? Nope, you're right, the form declarations belong to the view, HTML::Widget was an experiment and i wouldn't suggest using it anymore. There should be a TT plugin imo similar to the CGI.pm one, just sane. :) -- sebastian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
