Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear all, I find this discussion most amazing. Here, we are dealing with the most serious issue that happened to Macromolecular Crystallography since the Alabama case, and the whole discussion is centered around singular and plural and Greek and Latin words and what not. In psychology such phenomenon is referred to as displacement activity. If you are interested, here is the MacMillon definition of it: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/displacement-activity Cheers, Manfred On 01.04.2012 19:35, Gerard Bricogne wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:18:15PM -0400, David Schuller wrote: On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. When it are plural? Good nit-picking :-) . In my mind the quotes around data would have had the same effect as writing 'the word data', and referring to that word by the 'it'. So there is only one word, while its grammatical number is plural. At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago. We shouldn't learn to write by imitating Nobel laureates, then. With best wishes, Gerard. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edu -- Dr. Manfred. S. Weiss Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie Macromolecular Crystallography (HZB-MX) Albert-Einstein-Str. 15 D-12489 Berlin GERMANY Fon: +49-30-806213149 Fax: +49-30-806214975 Web: http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de/bessy-mx Email: mswe...@helmholtz-berlin.de Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie GmbH Mitglied der Hermann von Helmholtz-Gemeinschaft Deutscher Forschungszentren e.V. Aufsichtsrat: Vorsitzender Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Joachim Treusch, stv. Vorsitzende Dr. Beatrix Vierkorn-Rudolph Geschäftsführerin: Prof. Dr. Anke Rita Kaysser-Pyzalla Sitz Berlin, AG Charlottenburg, 89 HRB 5583 Postadresse: Hahn-Meitner-Platz 1 D-14109 Berlin http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
To my mind it just points to the fact that many scientists are generally unable to focus on one task or 'thing' at a time. i.e. very short attention spans... [before the flamer's start ‹ this is meant as a joke] Tony. --- Dr Antony W Oliver Senior Research Fellow CR-UK DNA Repair Enzymes Group Genome Damage and Stability Centre Science Park Road University of Sussex Falmer, Brighton, BN1 9RQ email: antony.oli...@sussex.ac.uk tel (office): +44 (0)1273 678349 tel (lab): +44 (0)1273 677512 On 4/2/12 9:47 AM, Manfred S. Weiss manfred.we...@helmholtz-berlin.de wrote: Dear all, I find this discussion most amazing. Here, we are dealing with the most serious issue that happened to Macromolecular Crystallography since the Alabama case, and the whole discussion is centered around singular and plural and Greek and Latin words and what not. In psychology such phenomenon is referred to as displacement activity. If you are interested, here is the MacMillon definition of it: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/displacement-activit y Cheers, Manfred On 01.04.2012 19:35, Gerard Bricogne wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:18:15PM -0400, David Schuller wrote: On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. When it are plural? Good nit-picking :-) . In my mind the quotes around data would have had the same effect as writing 'the word data', and referring to that word by the 'it'. So there is only one word, while its grammatical number is plural. At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago. We shouldn't learn to write by imitating Nobel laureates, then. With best wishes, Gerard. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edu -- Dr. Manfred. S. Weiss Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie Macromolecular Crystallography (HZB-MX) Albert-Einstein-Str. 15 D-12489 Berlin GERMANY Fon: +49-30-806213149 Fax: +49-30-806214975 Web: http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de/bessy-mx Email: mswe...@helmholtz-berlin.de Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie GmbH Mitglied der Hermann von Helmholtz-Gemeinschaft Deutscher Forschungszentren e.V. Aufsichtsrat: Vorsitzender Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Joachim Treusch, stv. Vorsitzende Dr. Beatrix Vierkorn-Rudolph Geschäftsführerin: Prof. Dr. Anke Rita Kaysser-Pyzalla Sitz Berlin, AG Charlottenburg, 89 HRB 5583 Postadresse: Hahn-Meitner-Platz 1 D-14109 Berlin http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Colleagues, This is a further instance of likely scientific fraud in macromolecular crystallography, ie under formal investigation at the relevant university. Both Bernhard and the Acta D and F Editors further document aspects in their written pieces related to the need for diffraction data images availability. The call for a 'universal system' by the Editors, in their Editorial, is also what the IUCr Forum on these matters has also been discussing. A possible convergence on local raw data repositories, with each data set doi registered where it underpins a publication, detailed by the IUCr DDD WG thus far, is unlikely to be 'universal' in its global coverage. But setting standards by encouraging raw data archives in our field will afford a much needed clarity in favour of retaining raw data wherever possible. A separate issue will be, in my view, the certain expansion of current validation checks. Indeed it is the standard practice in chemical crystallography submissions to IUCr journals for Co-Editors to validate the structure determination and refinement, including omit map calculations where appropriate. Of course this is most often a much easier task in chemical crystallography, per crystal structure checked, than would be the case for macromolecular crystallography. Again I encourage colleagues to lodge their inputs at the IUCr Forum on any aspect of principle or practice in achieving diffraction raw data archiving. Best wishes, John John R Helliwell On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 9:47 AM, Manfred S. Weiss manfred.we...@helmholtz-berlin.de wrote: Dear all, I find this discussion most amazing. Here, we are dealing with the most serious issue that happened to Macromolecular Crystallography since the Alabama case, and the whole discussion is centered around singular and plural and Greek and Latin words and what not. In psychology such phenomenon is referred to as displacement activity. If you are interested, here is the MacMillon definition of it: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/displacement-activity Cheers, Manfred On 01.04.2012 19:35, Gerard Bricogne wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:18:15PM -0400, David Schuller wrote: On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. When it are plural? Good nit-picking :-) . In my mind the quotes around data would have had the same effect as writing 'the word data', and referring to that word by the 'it'. So there is only one word, while its grammatical number is plural. At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago. We shouldn't learn to write by imitating Nobel laureates, then. With best wishes, Gerard. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edu -- Dr. Manfred. S. Weiss Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie Macromolecular Crystallography (HZB-MX) Albert-Einstein-Str. 15 D-12489 Berlin GERMANY Fon: +49-30-806213149 Fax: +49-30-806214975 Web: http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de/bessy-mx Email: mswe...@helmholtz-berlin.de Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie GmbH Mitglied der Hermann von Helmholtz-Gemeinschaft Deutscher Forschungszentren e.V. Aufsichtsrat: Vorsitzender Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Joachim Treusch, stv. Vorsitzende Dr. Beatrix Vierkorn-Rudolph Geschäftsführerin: Prof. Dr. Anke Rita Kaysser-Pyzalla Sitz Berlin, AG Charlottenburg, 89 HRB 5583 Postadresse: Hahn-Meitner-Platz 1 D-14109 Berlin http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de -- Professor John R Helliwell DSc
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Manfred, I understand your surprise and indignation, but for the sake of fairness you might also remember that I argued rather insistently at the end of last year in favour of the deposition of raw diffraction images, which is the crux of this problem. With best wishes, Gerard. -- On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 10:47:26AM +0200, Manfred S. Weiss wrote: Dear all, I find this discussion most amazing. Here, we are dealing with the most serious issue that happened to Macromolecular Crystallography since the Alabama case, and the whole discussion is centered around singular and plural and Greek and Latin words and what not. In psychology such phenomenon is referred to as displacement activity. If you are interested, here is the MacMillon definition of it: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/displacement-activity Cheers, Manfred On 01.04.2012 19:35, Gerard Bricogne wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:18:15PM -0400, David Schuller wrote: On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. When it are plural? Good nit-picking :-) . In my mind the quotes around data would have had the same effect as writing 'the word data', and referring to that word by the 'it'. So there is only one word, while its grammatical number is plural. At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago. We shouldn't learn to write by imitating Nobel laureates, then. With best wishes, Gerard. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edu -- Dr. Manfred. S. Weiss Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie Macromolecular Crystallography (HZB-MX) Albert-Einstein-Str. 15 D-12489 Berlin GERMANY Fon: +49-30-806213149 Fax: +49-30-806214975 Web: http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de/bessy-mx Email: mswe...@helmholtz-berlin.de Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie GmbH Mitglied der Hermann von Helmholtz-Gemeinschaft Deutscher Forschungszentren e.V. Aufsichtsrat: Vorsitzender Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Joachim Treusch, stv. Vorsitzende Dr. Beatrix Vierkorn-Rudolph Geschäftsführerin: Prof. Dr. Anke Rita Kaysser-Pyzalla Sitz Berlin, AG Charlottenburg, 89 HRB 5583 Postadresse: Hahn-Meitner-Platz 1 D-14109 Berlin http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de -- === * * * Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com * * * * Global Phasing Ltd. * * Sheraton House, Castle Park Tel: +44-(0)1223-353033 * * Cambridge CB3 0AX, UK Fax: +44-(0)1223-366889 * * * ===
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
OK, following on our psychological displacement: The examples Pheobe gave are mostly of collective nouns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_noun to be distinguished from mass nouns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_noun Strictly speaking, data is not a collective noun and is the plural of datum. Use of singular form is accepted nowadays but it doesn't mean that it's correct. To quote Merriam-webster: ...Data leads its own life independent of datum... See: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/data And by the way, what do you answer to how much data did you collect? A lot? just a little? Had we asked: how complete is your data? how many frames did you collect? How many data sets? wouldn't we have got a much more informative answer? Boaz Most crystallographers use the word data as a mass noun - that is, the syntax of data follows that of gravel or mud, not that of pebble/pebbles. People who pounce on the phrase data is routinely say data collection and data processing. But note that the proper way to construct compound nouns such as those is to use the singular form - one would never say rocks collection or apples picking. So if we have to say data are then we should be discussing how (not) to fabricate a datum set. Also note that when people come back from the synchrotron, we ask how much data did you collect not how many. Much is generally used with mass nouns. That doesn't mean we can't ALSO use the word as one with discrete singular and plural forms, especially when we have a few, individual observations rather than a huge pile that blurs into an aggregate. In that case, I see nothing incorrect about discussing an individual datum and using data as the plural form. Sometimes it is the artificial, over-simplified rule that is stupid, not the native speakers of a language. = Phoebe A. Rice Dept. of Biochemistry Molecular Biology The University of Chicago phone 773 834 1723 http://bmb.bsd.uchicago.edu/Faculty_and_Research/01_Faculty/01_Faculty_Alp habetically.php?faculty_id=123 http://www.rsc.org/shop/books/2008/9780854042722.asp Boaz Shaanan, Ph.D. Dept. of Life Sciences Ben-Gurion University of the Negev Beer-Sheva 84105 Israel E-mail: bshaa...@bgu.ac.il Phone: 972-8-647-2220 Skype: boaz.shaanan Fax: 972-8-647-2992 or 972-8-646-1710
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Manfred, Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested, here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour --Gerard PS: It was on a Sunday so all levity was perpetrated in people's own time. Today we'll all be serious again and frown and tut-tut appropriately. On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Manfred S. Weiss wrote: Dear all, I find this discussion most amazing. Here, we are dealing with the most serious issue that happened to Macromolecular Crystallography since the Alabama case, and the whole discussion is centered around singular and plural and Greek and Latin words and what not. In psychology such phenomenon is referred to as displacement activity. If you are interested, here is the MacMillon definition of it: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/displacement-activity Cheers, Manfred On 01.04.2012 19:35, Gerard Bricogne wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:18:15PM -0400, David Schuller wrote: On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. When it are plural? Good nit-picking :-) . In my mind the quotes around data would have had the same effect as writing 'the word data', and referring to that word by the 'it'. So there is only one word, while its grammatical number is plural. At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago. We shouldn't learn to write by imitating Nobel laureates, then. With best wishes, Gerard. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edu -- Dr. Manfred. S. Weiss Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin f?r Materialien und Energie Macromolecular Crystallography (HZB-MX) Albert-Einstein-Str. 15 D-12489 Berlin GERMANY Fon: +49-30-806213149 Fax: +49-30-806214975 Web: http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de/bessy-mx Email: mswe...@helmholtz-berlin.de Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin f?r Materialien und Energie GmbH Mitglied der Hermann von Helmholtz-Gemeinschaft Deutscher Forschungszentren e.V. Aufsichtsrat: Vorsitzender Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Joachim Treusch, stv. Vorsitzende Dr. Beatrix Vierkorn-Rudolph Gesch?ftsf?hrerin: Prof. Dr. Anke Rita Kaysser-Pyzalla Sitz Berlin, AG Charlottenburg, 89 HRB 5583 Postadresse: Hahn-Meitner-Platz 1 D-14109 Berlin http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de Best wishes, --Gerard ** Gerard J. Kleywegt http://xray.bmc.uu.se/gerard mailto:ger...@xray.bmc.uu.se ** The opinions in this message are fictional. Any similarity to actual opinions, living or dead, is purely coincidental. ** Little known gastromathematical curiosity: let z be the radius and a the thickness of a pizza. Then the volume of that pizza is equal to pi*z*z*a ! **
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Guys, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CobZuaPMQHw second 9 in this 22 sec video -Original Message- From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Gerard DVD Kleywegt Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 8:04 AM To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication] Dear Manfred, Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested, here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour --Gerard
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
I'm now preparing for the flood of 'unsubscribe ccp4bb' requests On Apr 2, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Bernhard Rupp (Hofkristallrat a.D.) wrote: Guys, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CobZuaPMQHw second 9 in this 22 sec video -Original Message- From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Gerard DVD Kleywegt Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 8:04 AM To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication] Dear Manfred, Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested, here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour --Gerard
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Gerard, inside Germany it's apparently called German Humour. There's a Wikipedia entry for that as well. Go figure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_humor Andreas (still living on Sunday time) On 02/04/2012 4:03, Gerard DVD Kleywegt wrote: Dear Manfred, Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested, here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour --Gerard PS: It was on a Sunday so all levity was perpetrated in people's own time. Today we'll all be serious again and frown and tut-tut appropriately.
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Andreas, That page confirms the old adage: German humour is no laughing matter. --Gerard On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Andreas F?rster wrote: Dear Gerard, inside Germany it's apparently called German Humour. There's a Wikipedia entry for that as well. Go figure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_humor Andreas (still living on Sunday time) On 02/04/2012 4:03, Gerard DVD Kleywegt wrote: Dear Manfred, Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested, here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour --Gerard PS: It was on a Sunday so all levity was perpetrated in people's own time. Today we'll all be serious again and frown and tut-tut appropriately. Best wishes, --Gerard ** Gerard J. Kleywegt http://xray.bmc.uu.se/gerard mailto:ger...@xray.bmc.uu.se ** The opinions in this message are fictional. Any similarity to actual opinions, living or dead, is purely coincidental. ** Little known gastromathematical curiosity: let z be the radius and a the thickness of a pizza. Then the volume of that pizza is equal to pi*z*z*a ! **
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
And please consider the date of Sunday's posts. We take this stuff seriously. That's what's nice about science. We ferret out mischief and bring it to the public. Nothing up my sleeve - all tricks will be exposed and dealt with harshly A Buffalo view. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: Gerard DVD Kleywegt ger...@xray.bmc.uu.se Sender: CCP4 bulletin board CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 17:03:42 To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Reply-To: Gerard DVD Kleywegt ger...@xray.bmc.uu.se Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication] Dear Manfred, Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested, here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour --Gerard PS: It was on a Sunday so all levity was perpetrated in people's own time. Today we'll all be serious again and frown and tut-tut appropriately. On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Manfred S. Weiss wrote: Dear all, I find this discussion most amazing. Here, we are dealing with the most serious issue that happened to Macromolecular Crystallography since the Alabama case, and the whole discussion is centered around singular and plural and Greek and Latin words and what not. In psychology such phenomenon is referred to as displacement activity. If you are interested, here is the MacMillon definition of it: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/displacement-activity Cheers, Manfred On 01.04.2012 19:35, Gerard Bricogne wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:18:15PM -0400, David Schuller wrote: On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. When it are plural? Good nit-picking :-) . In my mind the quotes around data would have had the same effect as writing 'the word data', and referring to that word by the 'it'. So there is only one word, while its grammatical number is plural. At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago. We shouldn't learn to write by imitating Nobel laureates, then. With best wishes, Gerard. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edu -- Dr. Manfred. S. Weiss Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin f?r Materialien und Energie Macromolecular Crystallography (HZB-MX) Albert-Einstein-Str. 15 D-12489 Berlin GERMANY Fon: +49-30-806213149 Fax: +49-30-806214975 Web: http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de/bessy-mx Email: mswe...@helmholtz-berlin.de Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin f?r Materialien und Energie GmbH Mitglied der Hermann von Helmholtz-Gemeinschaft Deutscher Forschungszentren e.V. Aufsichtsrat: Vorsitzender Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Joachim Treusch, stv. Vorsitzende Dr. Beatrix Vierkorn-Rudolph Gesch?ftsf?hrerin: Prof. Dr. Anke Rita Kaysser-Pyzalla Sitz Berlin, AG Charlottenburg, 89 HRB 5583 Postadresse: Hahn-Meitner-Platz 1 D-14109 Berlin http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de Best wishes, --Gerard ** Gerard J. Kleywegt http://xray.bmc.uu.se/gerard mailto:ger...@xray.bmc.uu.se ** The opinions in this message are fictional. Any similarity to actual opinions, living or dead, is purely coincidental. ** Little known gastromathematical curiosity: let z be the radius and a the thickness of a pizza. Then the volume of that pizza is equal to pi*z*z*a ! **
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Hm, last I checked my passport said German - still think I can make lots of fun of myself. Some Germans are epigenetically marked with humor-suppressor genes others not. Jürgen On Apr 2, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Gerard DVD Kleywegt wrote: Dear Manfred, Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested, here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour --Gerard PS: It was on a Sunday so all levity was perpetrated in people's own time. Today we'll all be serious again and frown and tut-tut appropriately. On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Manfred S. Weiss wrote: Dear all, I find this discussion most amazing. Here, we are dealing with the most serious issue that happened to Macromolecular Crystallography since the Alabama case, and the whole discussion is centered around singular and plural and Greek and Latin words and what not. In psychology such phenomenon is referred to as displacement activity. If you are interested, here is the MacMillon definition of it: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/displacement-activity Cheers, Manfred On 01.04.2012 19:35, Gerard Bricogne wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:18:15PM -0400, David Schuller wrote: On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. When it are plural? Good nit-picking :-) . In my mind the quotes around data would have had the same effect as writing 'the word data', and referring to that word by the 'it'. So there is only one word, while its grammatical number is plural. At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago. We shouldn't learn to write by imitating Nobel laureates, then. With best wishes, Gerard. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edumailto:schul...@cornell.edu -- Dr. Manfred. S. Weiss Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin f?r Materialien und Energie Macromolecular Crystallography (HZB-MX) Albert-Einstein-Str. 15 D-12489 Berlin GERMANY Fon: +49-30-806213149 Fax: +49-30-806214975 Web: http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de/bessy-mx Email: mswe...@helmholtz-berlin.demailto:mswe...@helmholtz-berlin.de Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin f?r Materialien und Energie GmbH Mitglied der Hermann von Helmholtz-Gemeinschaft Deutscher Forschungszentren e.V. Aufsichtsrat: Vorsitzender Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Joachim Treusch, stv. Vorsitzende Dr. Beatrix Vierkorn-Rudolph Gesch?ftsf?hrerin: Prof. Dr. Anke Rita Kaysser-Pyzalla Sitz Berlin, AG Charlottenburg, 89 HRB 5583 Postadresse: Hahn-Meitner-Platz 1 D-14109 Berlin http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de Best wishes, --Gerard ** Gerard J. Kleywegt http://xray.bmc.uu.se/gerard mailto:ger...@xray.bmc.uu.se ** The opinions in this message are fictional. Any similarity to actual opinions, living or dead, is purely coincidental. ** Little known gastromathematical curiosity: let z be the radius and a the thickness of a pizza. Then the volume of that pizza is equal to pi*z*z*a ! ** .. Jürgen Bosch Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health Department of Biochemistry Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins Malaria Research Institute 615 North Wolfe Street, W8708 Baltimore, MD 21205 Office: +1-410-614-4742 Lab: +1-410-614-4894 Fax: +1-410-955-2926 http://web.mac.com/bosch_lab/
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
My favorite part of the german humor link: Some German humorists such as Loriothttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicco_von_B%C3%BClow use seriousness as means of humor. On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Bosch, Juergen wrote: Hm, last I checked my passport said German - still think I can make lots of fun of myself. Some Germans are epigenetically marked with humor-suppressor genes others not. Jürgen On Apr 2, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Gerard DVD Kleywegt wrote: Dear Manfred, Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested, here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour --Gerard PS: It was on a Sunday so all levity was perpetrated in people's own time. Today we'll all be serious again and frown and tut-tut appropriately. On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Manfred S. Weiss wrote: Dear all, I find this discussion most amazing. Here, we are dealing with the most serious issue that happened to Macromolecular Crystallography since the Alabama case, and the whole discussion is centered around singular and plural and Greek and Latin words and what not. In psychology such phenomenon is referred to as displacement activity. If you are interested, here is the MacMillon definition of it: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/displacement-activity Cheers, Manfred On 01.04.2012 19:35, Gerard Bricogne wrote: On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:18:15PM -0400, David Schuller wrote: On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. When it are plural? Good nit-picking :-) . In my mind the quotes around data would have had the same effect as writing 'the word data', and referring to that word by the 'it'. So there is only one word, while its grammatical number is plural. At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago. We shouldn't learn to write by imitating Nobel laureates, then. With best wishes, Gerard. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edumailto:schul...@cornell.edu -- Dr. Manfred. S. Weiss Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin f?r Materialien und Energie Macromolecular Crystallography (HZB-MX) Albert-Einstein-Str. 15 D-12489 Berlin GERMANY Fon: +49-30-806213149 Fax: +49-30-806214975 Web: http://www.helmholtz-berlin.de/bessy-mx Email: mswe...@helmholtz-berlin.demailto:mswe...@helmholtz-berlin.de Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin f?r Materialien und Energie GmbH Mitglied der Hermann von Helmholtz-Gemeinschaft Deutscher Forschungszentren e.V. Aufsichtsrat: Vorsitzender Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Joachim Treusch, stv. Vorsitzende Dr. Beatrix Vierkorn-Rudolph Gesch?ftsf?hrerin: Prof. Dr. Anke Rita Kaysser-Pyzalla Sitz Berlin, AG Charlottenburg, 89 HRB 5583 Postadresse: Hahn-Meitner-Platz 1 D-14109 Berlin http://www.helmholtz-berlin.dehttp://www.helmholtz-berlin.de/ Best wishes, --Gerard ** Gerard J. Kleywegt http://xray.bmc.uu.se/gerard mailto:ger...@xray.bmc.uu.se ** The opinions in this message are fictional. Any similarity to actual opinions, living or dead, is purely coincidental. ** Little known gastromathematical curiosity: let z be the radius and a the thickness of a pizza. Then the volume of that pizza is equal to pi*z*z*a ! ** .. Jürgen Bosch Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health Department of Biochemistry Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins Malaria Research Institute 615 North Wolfe Street, W8708 Baltimore, MD 21205 Office: +1-410-614-4742 Lab: +1-410-614-4894 Fax: +1-410-955-2926 http://web.mac.com/bosch_lab/
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 And the summary indicates that outside Germany = English speaking world - which probably unveals its author as American ;-) On 04/02/12 18:25, Gerard DVD Kleywegt wrote: Dear Andreas, That page confirms the old adage: German humour is no laughing matter. --Gerard On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Andreas F?rster wrote: Dear Gerard, inside Germany it's apparently called German Humour. There's a Wikipedia entry for that as well. Go figure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_humor Andreas (still living on Sunday time) On 02/04/2012 4:03, Gerard DVD Kleywegt wrote: Dear Manfred, Outside Germany, such excursions are called humour. If you are interested, here is the Wikipedia page for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour --Gerard PS: It was on a Sunday so all levity was perpetrated in people's own time. Today we'll all be serious again and frown and tut-tut appropriately. Best wishes, --Gerard ** Gerard J. Kleywegt http://xray.bmc.uu.se/gerard mailto:ger...@xray.bmc.uu.se ** The opinions in this message are fictional. Any similarity to actual opinions, living or dead, is purely coincidental. ** Little known gastromathematical curiosity: let z be the radius and a the thickness of a pizza. Then the volume of that pizza is equal to pi*z*z*a ! ** - -- - -- Dr Tim Gruene Institut fuer anorganische Chemie Tammannstr. 4 D-37077 Goettingen GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFPeed9UxlJ7aRr7hoRAh9tAKDpydssNnLTrxn51ccjsR6Sfr4azwCdHWN1 u2uFraBdBejfkNLF9nnXhCA= =OngV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
That's pretty funny, isn't it? Andreas On 02/04/2012 6:52, Jacob Keller wrote: Sorry to beat a dead horse, but: * *Antiwitz* (/anti-joke/): A short, often absurd scene, which has the recognizable structure of a joke, but is illogical or lacking a punch-line. Example: /Two thick feet are crossing the street. Says one thick foot to the other thick foot: Hello!/ Other examples: Nachts ist es kälter als draußen (At night it's colder than outside) or Zu Fuß ist es kürzer als über'n Berg (Walking is faster than over the mountain).
[ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
The PDBe page for 3k78 says: The experimental data has been deposited the data cif file says: data is under question Grump. Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them? Anyway, the data mtz file is here if you want to refine with it: http://lmb.bioch.ox.ac.uk/emsley/data/r3k78sf.mtz Paul.
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. Related instances are * a phenomenon (singular) vs. several phenomena (plural), * a criterion (singular) vs. several criteria (plural) and many more. And then there is the infamous mix-up between principal (adjective) and principle (noun, as in Principle of Least Action, or Peter's Principle) giving rise to the favourite hero, the Principle Investigator. This phenomena is now so widespread that perhaps compliance with ancient Greek or Latin morphology is no longer a relevant criteria ;-) . With best wishes, Gerard. -- On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:05:10PM +0100, Paul Emsley wrote: The PDBe page for 3k78 says: The experimental data has been deposited the data cif file says: data is under question Grump. Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them? Anyway, the data mtz file is here if you want to refine with it: http://lmb.bioch.ox.ac.uk/emsley/data/r3k78sf.mtz Paul. -- === * * * Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com * * * * Global Phasing Ltd. * * Sheraton House, Castle Park Tel: +44-(0)1223-353033 * * Cambridge CB3 0AX, UK Fax: +44-(0)1223-366889 * * * ===
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Perhaps the world could use a few more principle investigators? A Buffalo view Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com Sender: CCP4 bulletin board CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:18:15 To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Reply-To: Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication] Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. Related instances are * a phenomenon (singular) vs. several phenomena (plural), * a criterion (singular) vs. several criteria (plural) and many more. And then there is the infamous mix-up between principal (adjective) and principle (noun, as in Principle of Least Action, or Peter's Principle) giving rise to the favourite hero, the Principle Investigator. This phenomena is now so widespread that perhaps compliance with ancient Greek or Latin morphology is no longer a relevant criteria ;-) . With best wishes, Gerard. -- On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:05:10PM +0100, Paul Emsley wrote: The PDBe page for 3k78 says: The experimental data has been deposited the data cif file says: data is under question Grump. Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them? Anyway, the data mtz file is here if you want to refine with it: http://lmb.bioch.ox.ac.uk/emsley/data/r3k78sf.mtz Paul. -- === * * * Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com * * * * Global Phasing Ltd. * * Sheraton House, Castle Park Tel: +44-(0)1223-353033 * * Cambridge CB3 0AX, UK Fax: +44-(0)1223-366889 * * * ===
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
You can find all the principle investigators you want collecting datums ;) at the ESRF, as that is how the French spell it on the application form for beam time! (Unless it has _finally_ been corrected: haven't checked since I submitted my last BAG application in April.) Adrian On 1 Apr 2012, at 17:52, George T. DeTitta wrote: Perhaps the world could use a few more principle investigators? A Buffalo view Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com Sender: CCP4 bulletin board CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:18:15 To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Reply-To: Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication] Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. Related instances are * a phenomenon (singular) vs. several phenomena (plural), * a criterion (singular) vs. several criteria (plural) and many more. And then there is the infamous mix-up between principal (adjective) and principle (noun, as in Principle of Least Action, or Peter's Principle) giving rise to the favourite hero, the Principle Investigator. This phenomena is now so widespread that perhaps compliance with ancient Greek or Latin morphology is no longer a relevant criteria ;-) . With best wishes, Gerard. -- On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:05:10PM +0100, Paul Emsley wrote: The PDBe page for 3k78 says: The experimental data has been deposited the data cif file says: data is under question Grump. Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them? Anyway, the data mtz file is here if you want to refine with it: http://lmb.bioch.ox.ac.uk/emsley/data/r3k78sf.mtz Paul. -- === * * * Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com * * * * Global Phasing Ltd. * * Sheraton House, Castle Park Tel: +44-(0)1223-353033 * * Cambridge CB3 0AX, UK Fax: +44-(0)1223-366889 * * * ===
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Hear, hear! I'm glad to know I'm not the last grump left standing. When I raise this point every year, my students regard me with bemused stares, as though they've just seen a coelacanth swim past their window... On 1 Apr 2012, at 10:18 AM, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. Related instances are * a phenomenon (singular) vs. several phenomena (plural), * a criterion (singular) vs. several criteria (plural) and many more. And then there is the infamous mix-up between principal (adjective) and principle (noun, as in Principle of Least Action, or Peter's Principle) giving rise to the favourite hero, the Principle Investigator. This phenomena is now so widespread that perhaps compliance with ancient Greek or Latin morphology is no longer a relevant criteria ;-) . With best wishes, Gerard. -- On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:05:10PM +0100, Paul Emsley wrote: The PDBe page for 3k78 says: The experimental data has been deposited the data cif file says: data is under question Grump. Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them? Anyway, the data mtz file is here if you want to refine with it: http://lmb.bioch.ox.ac.uk/emsley/data/r3k78sf.mtz Paul. -- === * * * Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com * * * * Global Phasing Ltd. * * Sheraton House, Castle Park Tel: +44-(0)1223-353033 * * Cambridge CB3 0AX, UK Fax: +44-(0)1223-366889 * * * ===
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
another singular/plural grump: Recently we can read: phage are. Phage is singular, the plural is phages (and this does not have that much to do with latin or greek). more reading: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3109450/ Quoting Paul Emsley: The PDBe page for 3k78 says: The experimental data has been deposited the data cif file says: data is under question Grump. Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them? Anyway, the data mtz file is here if you want to refine with it: http://lmb.bioch.ox.ac.uk/emsley/data/r3k78sf.mtz Paul. Mark J van Raaij Laboratorio M-4 Dpto de Estructura de Macromoléculas Centro Nacional de Biotecnología - CSIC c/Darwin 3, Campus Cantoblanco 28049 Madrid tel. 91 585 4616 email: mjvanra...@cnb.csic.es
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Think the jury might be out on this one... A quick snip from WikiDictionary... The plural word phages refers to different types of phage, whereas in common usage the word phage can be both singular and plural, referring in the plural sense to particles of the same type of phage. Maloy et al: Microbial Genetics, 2nd ed., 1984 Tony. --- Mobile Account --- On 1 Apr 2012, at 16:29, VAN RAAIJ , MARK JOHAN mjvanra...@cnb.csic.esmailto:mjvanra...@cnb.csic.es wrote: another singular/plural grump: Recently we can read: phage are. Phage is singular, the plural is phages (and this does not have that much to do with latin or greek). more reading: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3109450/ Quoting Paul Emsley: The PDBe page for 3k78 says: The experimental data has been deposited the data cif file says: data is under question Grump. Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them? Anyway, the data mtz file is here if you want to refine with it: http://lmb.bioch.ox.ac.uk/emsley/data/r3k78sf.mtz Paul. Mark J van Raaij Laboratorio M-4 Dpto de Estructura de Macromoléculas Centro Nacional de Biotecnología - CSIC c/Darwin 3, Campus Cantoblanco 28049 Madrid tel. 91 585 4616 email: mjvanra...@cnb.csic.esmailto:mjvanra...@cnb.csic.es
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them? Is it too late to explain the difference between to and too? --A much mellowed CD
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. When it are plural? At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edu
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 01:18:15PM -0400, David Schuller wrote: On 04/01/12 10:18, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Paul, May I join the mostly silent chorus of Greek/Latin-aware grumps who wince when seeing data treated as singular when it is plural. When it are plural? Good nit-picking :-) . In my mind the quotes around data would have had the same effect as writing 'the word data', and referring to that word by the 'it'. So there is only one word, while its grammatical number is plural. At any rate, I heard a Nobel laureate use it incorrectly just two days ago. We shouldn't learn to write by imitating Nobel laureates, then. With best wishes, Gerard. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edu
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Ah, an old pet peeve resurfaces! English is complicated and data is by now an English word. To use a somewhat strained analogy, at the quantum level, the word has a singular and a plural form, and at the classical-mechanics level, the word is a mass noun. Most crystallographers use the word data as a mass noun - that is, the syntax of data follows that of gravel or mud, not that of pebble/pebbles. People who pounce on the phrase data is routinely say data collection and data processing. But note that the proper way to construct compound nouns such as those is to use the singular form - one would never say rocks collection or apples picking. So if we have to say data are then we should be discussing how (not) to fabricate a datum set. Also note that when people come back from the synchrotron, we ask how much data did you collect not how many. Much is generally used with mass nouns. That doesn't mean we can't ALSO use the word as one with discrete singular and plural forms, especially when we have a few, individual observations rather than a huge pile that blurs into an aggregate. In that case, I see nothing incorrect about discussing an individual datum and using data as the plural form. Sometimes it is the artificial, over-simplified rule that is stupid, not the native speakers of a language. = Phoebe A. Rice Dept. of Biochemistry Molecular Biology The University of Chicago phone 773 834 1723 http://bmb.bsd.uchicago.edu/Faculty_and_Research/01_Faculty/01_Faculty_Alp habetically.php?faculty_id=123 http://www.rsc.org/shop/books/2008/9780854042722.asp Original message Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 13:05:10 +0100 From: CCP4 bulletin board CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK (on behalf of Paul Emsley paul.ems...@bioch.ox.ac.uk) Subject: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication] To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK The PDBe page for 3k78 says: The experimental data has been deposited the data cif file says: data is under question Grump. Is it to late to refer to data as if there were more than one of them? Anyway, the data mtz file is here if you want to refine with it: http://lmb.bioch.ox.ac.uk/emsley/data/r3k78sf.mtz Paul.
Re: [ccp4bb] one datum many data? [was Re: [ccp4bb] very informative - Trends in Data Fabrication]
Grumpy old men :-) I feel hijacked or is hijacketed ? Don't we all speak and write perfect BE (not as in British English, but more like Bad English) ? May the impact factor for TiDF continue to be very low. Jürgen .. Jürgen Bosch Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health Department of Biochemistry Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins Malaria Research Institute 615 North Wolfe Street, W8708 Baltimore, MD 21205 Office: +1-410-614-4742 Lab: +1-410-614-4894 Fax: +1-410-955-2926 http://web.mac.com/bosch_lab/
