Re: H960 blank panel clips
From: geneb: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:16 AM On Wed, 29 Jul 2015, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: Are you referring to the junction of the post and the block? That would be easy enough to do (though tedious in SketchUp). ...which is why SketchUp shouldn't be used for CAD work. If you're using Windows, I strongly suggest you get DesignSpark Mechanical - it's free to use and has a work flow very similar to SketchUp. If you're not using Windows, give the current release of FreeCAD a shot. I have a crufty old version of DesignSpark PCB. I'll have a look at Mechanical. When it comes to CAD work, SketchUp is THE worst choice possible. I have a friend who does this sort of thing with BobCad, and I find that for the simple stuff, I finish faster in SketchUp. The problem is that Sketchup simply doesn't have advanced features. You should also do your design work in metric if you expect to be having parts printed. Scaling isn't a practical solution because it can introduce problems depending on the slicer used. I can export in metric, but the DEC designs generally don't make much sense unless you're doing them in power of 2 fractions of inches. Everything is 1/8, 1/4, etc. Vince
Re: H960 blank panel clips
From: Pete Turnbull: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:05 AM One concern that I had was that the new design might end up trying to ovalize the (brittle) socket in the mating panel, since the new posts are only really compressible in one axis. I doubt that matters much either, because it's the posts that break, not the sockets. Oh, I've had the sockets split before, too. Vince
DEC M705 vs M7050 in PC05
If you were following Joerg Hoppe's recent PC05 auction on eBay, you might have noticed that his system had an M705 in the backplane where I would have expected an M7050. This is the way he received it and the restored unit works as it should. Clearly the cards are similar but different but are they interchangeable? Would the backplane wiring be different and if so where would this be recorded? My copy of the PC04/05 maintenance manual (DEC-00-PCOA-D(1)) makes no mention of the M705 in this location. The PC04/05 print set on Bitsavers has the M705 on the module utilization list (p45) but crossed out with no reference notes. There is an ECO list on the sheet, showing PC05 ECO's 3, 16 and 30 but no specifics. Is there an available ECO log that would cover these notes? Then there's the K303, but that's another story... Jack
Re: DEC M705 vs M7050 in PC05
On 2015-07-29 19:08, Jack Rubin wrote: If you were following Joerg Hoppe's recent PC05 auction on eBay, you might have noticed that his system had an M705 in the backplane where I would have expected an M7050. This is the way he received it and the restored unit works as it should. Clearly the cards are similar but different but are they interchangeable? Would the backplane wiring be different and if so where would this be recorded? My copy of the PC04/05 maintenance manual (DEC-00-PCOA-D(1)) makes no mention of the M705 in this location. The PC04/05 print set on Bitsavers has the M705 on the module utilization list (p45) but crossed out with no reference notes. There is an ECO list on the sheet, showing PC05 ECO's 3, 16 and 30 but no specifics. Is there an available ECO log that would cover these notes? Then there's the K303, but that's another story... Don't know any specifics here, but I know that DEC made improved cards in many cases, where they added a 0 at the end of the improved card. Examples: M454 - M4540 M596 - M5960 M930 - M9300 There are also examples where the zero was added, and the new module replace a set of modules that combine to implement a device. These are PDP-11 examples, you can find even more of this on the PDP-8 side of things. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip - B. Idol
Re: H960 blank panel clips
I have a crufty old version of DesignSpark PCB. I'll have a look at Mechanical. It's basically SpaceClaim that's been tweaked to only output it's native file format and STL files. You should also do your design work in metric if you expect to be having parts printed. Scaling isn't a practical solution because it can introduce problems depending on the slicer used. I can export in metric, but the DEC designs generally don't make much sense unless you're doing them in power of 2 fractions of inches. Everything is 1/8, 1/4, etc. The problem is that the toolchains for 3D printing are all (or at least all the ones I've seen - which is a lot) metric. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: Wanted: IBM AS/400 in NY for a film
On Tue, 28 Jul 2015, Oldcomputers wrote: I received this email - they want am IBM AS/400 for a film - it doesn't have to work. They will pay for transportation and rent. Near Brooklyn NY I think. And what will they pay for damage or destruction? Always get more details - as others have said previously, film crews can be quite destructive.
RE: need help getting a Sun Ultra-10 working
-Original Message- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of IMAP List Administration Sent: 29 July 2015 17:48 To: cct...@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: need help getting a Sun Ultra-10 working Hi Dave, On 07/29/2015 06:40 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: Take the keyboard out and see if you then get a response on the TTYa. Yes! I now get to the openboot prompt and can type stuff like probe-ide (not listed in output of help diag) and I can see my disk and cdrom. Why does the system hang when the sun keyboard is connected? Why doesn't it display anything on the VGA monitor? I suspect it is not finding the frame buffer. The default settings in OpenBoot are pants... I have two sun's with dead NVRAM and can't get either to work with any of the replacments I have tried. Even tried CR2032 on existing battery after attacking with Dremel... I'm about to try that with my Proxxon (a Dremel, basically). I will report my results. Ah yes, I nearly bought one to install as a milling head in my Maplin/Vellmen K8200 printer as there is a mount you can print for those on the K8200 web site, but then I found a mount for a Dremel on Thingyverse and the local DIY shop had them on offer... cheers, Rob Dave -Original Message- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of IMAP List Administration Sent: 29 July 2015 17:23 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only cct...@classiccmp.org Subject: need help getting a Sun Ultra-10 working Hello Folks, I just assembled an Ultra-10 (replaced memory, CPU, NVRAM chip, IDE hard disk, IDE CDROM) and it seems to be hanging somewhere. I don't get anything from the VGA connection on the 1280x1024 LCD monitor that is connected, but on the serial console I see the output pasted below. The system does not respond to any input via the attached sun keyboard/mouse or via ttyA after printing the last line in the output below. Obviously, the NVRAM battery is dead, and I'm working on getting a replacement. Does anyone have a good source in Germany? The chip says M48T59Y- 70PC1U. Could the dead NVRAM battery explain the behavior described? thanks, Rob Urban - serial console output BEGIN - Hardware Power ON @(#) Sun Ultra 5/10 UPA/PCI 3.31 Version 0 created 2001/07/25 20:36 Probing keyboard Done %o0 = ..0055.4001 Executing Power On SelfTest @(#) Sun Ultra 5/10 (Darwin) POST 3.1.0 (Build No. 626) 13:56 on 06/27/00 CPU: UltraSPARC-LC (Clock Frequency: 300MHz, Ecache Size: 512KB) Init POST BSS Init System BSS NVRAM NVRAM Battery Detect Test *** STATUS =FAILED TEST =NVRAM Battery Detect SUSPECT=NVRAM U13 MESSAGE=NVRAM Low Battery addr 01ff.f1001ff0 exp 00 obs 10 Status of this POST run:FAIL manfacturing mode=CHAMBER Time Stamp [hour:min:sec] 28:6a:c1 [month/date year] 0b/2c 2130 Power On Selftest Completed Software Power ON0...0001 ..f00b.31a8 ..0200.001b @(#) Sun Ultra 5/10 UPA/PCI 3.31 Version 0 created 2001/07/25 20:36 Clearing E$ Tags Done Clearing I/D TLBs Done Probing Memory Done MEM BASE = ..2000. MEM SIZE = ..1000. 11-Column Mode Enabled MMUs ON Copy Done PC = .01ff.f000.201c PC = ...2060 Decompressing into Memory Done Size = ..0006.eba0 ttya initialized Starting real time clock... Incorrect configuration checksum; Setting NVRAM parameters to default values. Setting diag-switch? NVRAM parameter to true Reset Control: BXIR:0 BPOR:0 SXIR:0 SPOR:1 POR:0 UltraSPARC-IIi 2-2 module Probing Memory Bank #0 256 + 256 : 512 Megabytes Probing Memory Bank #2 0 + 0 : 0 Megabytes Probing UPA Slot at 1e,0 Nothing There Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1,1 at Device 1 pci108e,1000 network Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1,1 at Device 2 SUNW,m64B Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1,1 at Device 3 ide disk cdrom Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 1 Nothing there Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 2 Nothing there Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 3 Nothing there Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 4 Nothing there - serial console output END -
Re: need help getting a Sun Ultra-10 working
Hi Dave, On 07/29/2015 06:40 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: Take the keyboard out and see if you then get a response on the TTYa. Yes! I now get to the openboot prompt and can type stuff like probe-ide (not listed in output of help diag) and I can see my disk and cdrom. Why does the system hang when the sun keyboard is connected? Why doesn't it display anything on the VGA monitor? I have two sun's with dead NVRAM and can't get either to work with any of the replacments I have tried. Even tried CR2032 on existing battery after attacking with Dremel... I'm about to try that with my Proxxon (a Dremel, basically). I will report my results. cheers, Rob Dave -Original Message- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of IMAP List Administration Sent: 29 July 2015 17:23 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only cct...@classiccmp.org Subject: need help getting a Sun Ultra-10 working Hello Folks, I just assembled an Ultra-10 (replaced memory, CPU, NVRAM chip, IDE hard disk, IDE CDROM) and it seems to be hanging somewhere. I don't get anything from the VGA connection on the 1280x1024 LCD monitor that is connected, but on the serial console I see the output pasted below. The system does not respond to any input via the attached sun keyboard/mouse or via ttyA after printing the last line in the output below. Obviously, the NVRAM battery is dead, and I'm working on getting a replacement. Does anyone have a good source in Germany? The chip says M48T59Y- 70PC1U. Could the dead NVRAM battery explain the behavior described? thanks, Rob Urban - serial console output BEGIN - Hardware Power ON @(#) Sun Ultra 5/10 UPA/PCI 3.31 Version 0 created 2001/07/25 20:36 Probing keyboard Done %o0 = ..0055.4001 Executing Power On SelfTest @(#) Sun Ultra 5/10 (Darwin) POST 3.1.0 (Build No. 626) 13:56 on 06/27/00 CPU: UltraSPARC-LC (Clock Frequency: 300MHz, Ecache Size: 512KB) Init POST BSS Init System BSS NVRAM NVRAM Battery Detect Test *** STATUS =FAILED TEST =NVRAM Battery Detect SUSPECT=NVRAM U13 MESSAGE=NVRAM Low Battery addr 01ff.f1001ff0 exp 00 obs 10 Status of this POST run:FAIL manfacturing mode=CHAMBER Time Stamp [hour:min:sec] 28:6a:c1 [month/date year] 0b/2c 2130 Power On Selftest Completed Software Power ON0...0001 ..f00b.31a8 ..0200.001b @(#) Sun Ultra 5/10 UPA/PCI 3.31 Version 0 created 2001/07/25 20:36 Clearing E$ Tags Done Clearing I/D TLBs Done Probing Memory Done MEM BASE = ..2000. MEM SIZE = ..1000. 11-Column Mode Enabled MMUs ON Copy Done PC = .01ff.f000.201c PC = ...2060 Decompressing into Memory Done Size = ..0006.eba0 ttya initialized Starting real time clock... Incorrect configuration checksum; Setting NVRAM parameters to default values. Setting diag-switch? NVRAM parameter to true Reset Control: BXIR:0 BPOR:0 SXIR:0 SPOR:1 POR:0 UltraSPARC-IIi 2-2 module Probing Memory Bank #0 256 + 256 : 512 Megabytes Probing Memory Bank #2 0 + 0 : 0 Megabytes Probing UPA Slot at 1e,0 Nothing There Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1,1 at Device 1 pci108e,1000 network Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1,1 at Device 2 SUNW,m64B Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1,1 at Device 3 ide disk cdrom Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 1 Nothing there Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 2 Nothing there Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 3 Nothing there Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 4 Nothing there - serial console output END -
Re: Re: IBM RT memory boards
I'll be in touch off-list. Thanks, m - Original Message - From: supervinx superv...@libero.it To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk@classiccmp.org Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 5:28 AM Subject: R: Re: IBM RT memory boards I own two 7012 and could be interested in, if you can shipping overseas :) Messaggio originale Da: Sean Caron sca...@umich.edu Data:25/07/2015 16:17 (GMT+01:00) A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk@classiccmp.org,Sean Caron sca...@umich.edu Oggetto: Re: IBM RT memory boards If you're going to toss them otherwise, I'd be happy to keep them and give them a good home until someone came along who could use them ... but I'll take a backseat to anyone who's actually got one of those systems. Best, Sean On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Mike Stein mhs.st...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Thank you for your interest but it looks like my 70-year-old gray cells have let me down again; it's been a few years since I scrapped this system but after some discussion it turns out that these boards are actually for an early RS/6000 (7012/7013). My apologies for raising your hopes/wasting your time ;-( (Anybody still interested?) mike - Original Message - From: supervinx superv...@libero.it To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk@classiccmp.org Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2015 5:54 AM Subject: R: IBM RT memory boards I'm interested in, if you can ship overseas Messaggio originale Da: Mike Stein mhs.st...@gmail.com Data:24/07/2015 18:21 (GMT+01:00) A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk@classiccmp.org Oggetto: IBM RT memory boards I've got 4 4Mx32 memory boards here from an old RT (AFAIR) in case anybody has a use for them. Each board has 8 512Kx40 (32 bits + 8 ECC) modules (20 pcs. 4x256). Edge connector is DS 42+49 m
need help getting a Sun Ultra-10 working
Hello Folks, I just assembled an Ultra-10 (replaced memory, CPU, NVRAM chip, IDE hard disk, IDE CDROM) and it seems to be hanging somewhere. I don't get anything from the VGA connection on the 1280x1024 LCD monitor that is connected, but on the serial console I see the output pasted below. The system does not respond to any input via the attached sun keyboard/mouse or via ttyA after printing the last line in the output below. Obviously, the NVRAM battery is dead, and I'm working on getting a replacement. Does anyone have a good source in Germany? The chip says M48T59Y-70PC1U. Could the dead NVRAM battery explain the behavior described? thanks, Rob Urban - serial console output BEGIN - Hardware Power ON @(#) Sun Ultra 5/10 UPA/PCI 3.31 Version 0 created 2001/07/25 20:36 Probing keyboard Done %o0 = ..0055.4001 Executing Power On SelfTest @(#) Sun Ultra 5/10 (Darwin) POST 3.1.0 (Build No. 626) 13:56 on 06/27/00 CPU: UltraSPARC-LC (Clock Frequency: 300MHz, Ecache Size: 512KB) Init POST BSS Init System BSS NVRAM NVRAM Battery Detect Test *** STATUS =FAILED TEST =NVRAM Battery Detect SUSPECT=NVRAM U13 MESSAGE=NVRAM Low Battery addr 01ff.f1001ff0 exp 00 obs 10 Status of this POST run:FAIL manfacturing mode=CHAMBER Time Stamp [hour:min:sec] 28:6a:c1 [month/date year] 0b/2c 2130 Power On Selftest Completed Software Power ON0...0001 ..f00b.31a8 ..0200.001b @(#) Sun Ultra 5/10 UPA/PCI 3.31 Version 0 created 2001/07/25 20:36 Clearing E$ Tags Done Clearing I/D TLBs Done Probing Memory Done MEM BASE = ..2000. MEM SIZE = ..1000. 11-Column Mode Enabled MMUs ON Copy Done PC = .01ff.f000.201c PC = ...2060 Decompressing into Memory Done Size = ..0006.eba0 ttya initialized Starting real time clock... Incorrect configuration checksum; Setting NVRAM parameters to default values. Setting diag-switch? NVRAM parameter to true Reset Control: BXIR:0 BPOR:0 SXIR:0 SPOR:1 POR:0 UltraSPARC-IIi 2-2 module Probing Memory Bank #0 256 + 256 : 512 Megabytes Probing Memory Bank #2 0 + 0 : 0 Megabytes Probing UPA Slot at 1e,0 Nothing There Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1,1 at Device 1 pci108e,1000 network Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1,1 at Device 2 SUNW,m64B Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1,1 at Device 3 ide disk cdrom Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 1 Nothing there Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 2 Nothing there Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 3 Nothing there Probing /pci@1f,0/pci@1 at Device 4 Nothing there - serial console output END -
Re: Equipment available (Wichita, Ks)
Hi Shaun, Can you estimate weight on the SHD1Z-ZZ? That's all DEC RZ26 drives in there? I can't seem to find a picture so I'm not clear on dimensions or weight ... Someone already claim it? Thanks, Sean On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Shaun Halstead microf...@microfilm.kscoxmail.com wrote: Still cleaning the shop, trying to be out by the end of the week-ish. We have the following equipment available: TU-80 family tape drive, in frame. Works, passes diagnostics. Make offer. Photos: http://microfilmks.com/LMSI/ Unknown power supply module. Has NCR part numbers but google gives no love. +5 (x2), -5, +12, -12. Make offer. Photos: http://microfilmks.com/Ebay/UnknownPSU1.jpg and UnknownPSU2.jpg Discom electron tube, PN 123788-2. These came out of COM microfiche cameras, and have a blue display. Not sure how to go about shipping them securely, but if you're interested, we can figure it out. I have several of these. DEC SHD1Z-ZZ SCSI drive cabinet, tower configuration. Has SCSI-2 personality module, power supply, SCSI terminator and cable, 6 drive trays for 50-pin drives. Also has 4 spare drive trays and one spare power supply. Includes 6 1.2G SCSI drives, or if you prefer, I can remove them to lower the shipping weight. Asking $50 obo. All shipping is from Wichita, Ks, 67213 --Shaun
Re: Reforming capacitors (technical description, not politics)
Capacitor technology made huge strides in the 1960s and 1970s - and has continued to advance even to this very day. Parts that were once the size of a Chicago bratwurst are reduced to the size of the baby gherkins that garnish them, with better specs across the board. And if you want to count the supercaps (you shouldn't), well, then everyone else might as well go home now. Incidentally, what exactly differentiates a computer-grade cap from any other alum. electrolytic? @Eric If you're interested, I have somewhere a document from Mallory - I believe it may be a hardbound volume, perhaps a catalog - that describes the evolution of the multi-section aluminum can electrolytic, from the early versions up through the EP (Etched Plate) and finally FP (Fabricated Plate) designs. If you'd like to see it, I'll set it aside the next time I come across it. On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Eric Smith space...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 11:27 AM, drlegendre . drlegen...@gmail.com wrote: And therein lies the rub. It seems that so many of the 'legacy' caps we come across already have some degree of irreversible damage, that the idea of reforming them appears to be some type of dark art. As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, there may be a lot of difference between computer grade electrolytic capacitors, and normal ones. It's also possible that capacitors made in the 1960s and 1970s may have been better designed and manufactured than earlier ones.
Re: DEC M705 vs M7050 in PC05
From: Johnny Billquist DEC made improved cards in many cases, where they added a 0 at the end of the improved card. The other thing one will sometimes find (in PDP-11's at least, not sure about other machines) is that an M7xyz is replaced by the upgraded M8xyz, e.g. M7265, M7266 (11/34) - M8265, M8266 (11/34A); M7685 (RM02/3) - M8685; etc. Of course, there are plenty that follow no system at all, e.g. M7700 (RK05) - M7680. There are also examples where the zero was added, and the new module replace a set of modules that combine to implement a device. The classic example, to me, being the M780 (KL11) - M7800 (DL11). Noel
Re: DEC M705 vs M7050 in PC05
A lot of the early unibus boards which were 3 digit and replaced by a 4 digit were duel height boards that required a M7821 and M105 (not sure about the numbers), and DEC built those into a quad height board and added a 0. On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:56 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: It could also be the extra 0 is for some reason intended to be installed in an expansion chassis for the system. It is a stretch to make this assumption, the thought occured because I know the power supply in an expansion chassis I have is called h7420a, whereas the main unit part number is h742a.. On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Vincent Slyngstad v.slyngs...@frontier.com wrote: From: Jack Rubin: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 10:08 AM If you were following Joerg Hoppe's recent PC05 auction on eBay, you might have noticed that his system had an M705 in the backplane where I would have expected an M7050. This is the way he received it and the restored unit works as it should. Clearly the cards are similar but different but are they interchangeable? Would the backplane wiring be different and if so where would this be recorded? I don't know where to find backplane documentation, but I did at one time diff the net-lists for some versions of M705 vs M7050. Those results are paraphrased in http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M7050/M705vsM7050.txt The gist of it seems to be that to use an M7050 in an M705 backplane, BU1 must be high (will probably float high), and BC1 must not be grounded, New output pins BL2, BT2, and test point AC1 should be unconnected. A fair chance it will just work. Going the other way is probably more difficult, as you'd have to fake BL2 and BT2 somehow. Hope that helps! Vince -- Bill vintagecomputer.net
Re: Reforming capacitors (technical description, not politics)
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 11:27 AM, drlegendre . drlegen...@gmail.com wrote: And therein lies the rub. It seems that so many of the 'legacy' caps we come across already have some degree of irreversible damage, that the idea of reforming them appears to be some type of dark art. As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, there may be a lot of difference between computer grade electrolytic capacitors, and normal ones. It's also possible that capacitors made in the 1960s and 1970s may have been better designed and manufactured than earlier ones.
FFS: GE Mark Century programming manual
Here's a beast of a manual that I've scanned and posted. Will send the original for the cost of shipping (assume at least 5lbs of paper here, coming from 60070.) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13043699/pics/GECENT.jpg Scan is here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/GE Looks like numerical control for machining, not strictly a computer but certainly an early programmable device. 1970 edition but the earliest date on it is 1962. Can deliver to VCFMW. j
Re: Equipment available (Wichita, Ks)
On 07/29/2015 09:44 AM, Shaun Halstead wrote: I really wish I had a Pertec to SCSI bridge. It would have made these drives far more useful over the years. YEAH! I HAD one, salvaged from a Digi-Data drive. It actually WORKED on the Keystone one time, then developed a power-on self test failure! Darn! I sent it off to somebody on the list, no idea if they were able to fix it. Jon
Re: Reforming capacitors (technical description, not politics)
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 3:34 AM, Eric Smith space...@gmail.com wrote: Some people seem to think that reforming an aluminum electrolytic capacitor is some kind of cheat, akin to zapping NiCd cells or rejuvenating CRTs. Actually reforming is the same electrochemical Reforming is standard practice with industrial motor drives. Manufactures (ABB, Allen-Bradley, Siemens) will require that a drive that is not powered for a year or more have the DC bus capacitors reformed or any warrantees could be voided. The procedures they recommend are very similar to those that have been discussed here. ABB suggests a 3phase rectifier and current limitting power resistor or a current limiting DC (1000V) power supply. -chuck
Re: Reforming capacitors (technical description, not politics)
On 07/29/2015 03:39 PM, ben wrote: I would guess ripple current. You got me there--in particular, I've had terrible luck with Sprague Long Life Hermetically Sealed screw-terminal caps. Just about every single one I've run into has been bone dry. Useless to try to reform those. Lambda used them extensively in their linear PSUs. --Chuck
Re: Reforming capacitors (technical description, not politics)
And what a hijack.. sorry. Please just disregard that last post, in the context of this thread.. We're all much better off exploring the original topic, which is far more useful and interesting. On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 8:58 PM, drlegendre . drlegen...@gmail.com wrote: I get the jab you're taking at latter-day Audiophool idiocy, but you won't find any gold-plated OFC business in any of the vintage gear I typically work with. But as far as gold plating goes, gold is a good conductor, it solders very well, it doesn't tarnish and its ductility promotes solid connections on screw terminals - it's really these characteristics that make it somewhat desirable in certain applications. So it's not so much that gold sounds better, it's that it allows one to make connections that work better. But it does tend to wear quickly. Silver is as good or better, and while it does tarnish, my understanding is that the tarnish has virtually the same conductivity as the parent metal.. and silver is much cheaper than gold. Now to really shoot the wad.. IME, silver +does+ have a sonic artifact, at least in the systems where its used to a very large degree (as high purity wire) in the audio path. That said, I've never liked the silver sound in the systems where I believe I could hear a signature. Of course, since no other factors were controlled, I can't say that the audio artifacts I've heard were due entirely to the dominance of of metallic silver in the conductors.. On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin ci...@xenosoft.com wrote: On Wed, 29 Jul 2015, drlegendre . wrote: Incidentally, what exactly differentiates a computer-grade cap from any other alum. electrolytic? Maybe computer-grade don't need gold-plated oxygen-free leads?
Re: Reforming capacitors (technical description, not politics)
I get the jab you're taking at latter-day Audiophool idiocy, but you won't find any gold-plated OFC business in any of the vintage gear I typically work with. But as far as gold plating goes, gold is a good conductor, it solders very well, it doesn't tarnish and its ductility promotes solid connections on screw terminals - it's really these characteristics that make it somewhat desirable in certain applications. So it's not so much that gold sounds better, it's that it allows one to make connections that work better. But it does tend to wear quickly. Silver is as good or better, and while it does tarnish, my understanding is that the tarnish has virtually the same conductivity as the parent metal.. and silver is much cheaper than gold. Now to really shoot the wad.. IME, silver +does+ have a sonic artifact, at least in the systems where its used to a very large degree (as high purity wire) in the audio path. That said, I've never liked the silver sound in the systems where I believe I could hear a signature. Of course, since no other factors were controlled, I can't say that the audio artifacts I've heard were due entirely to the dominance of of metallic silver in the conductors.. On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin ci...@xenosoft.com wrote: On Wed, 29 Jul 2015, drlegendre . wrote: Incidentally, what exactly differentiates a computer-grade cap from any other alum. electrolytic? Maybe computer-grade don't need gold-plated oxygen-free leads?
Re: Equipment available (Wichita, Ks)
On 07/28/2015 12:34 PM, Shaun Halstead wrote: Unknown power supply module. Has NCR part numbers but google gives no love. +5 (x2), -5, +12, -12. Make offer. Photos: http://microfilmks.com/Ebay/UnknownPSU1.jpg and UnknownPSU2.jpg Hmm, possibly from a Tower machine. Mine had power input (duh!), fuse, power control jack and standby switch on the back too, albeit in a different order. It was a lengthy beast, probably about 18 or so. DC outputs were at the top-front, and on mine the fan actually sat at the front of the PSU, not at the rear like yours. cheers Jules
RE: H960 blank panel clips
-Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of quapla Sent: 29 July 2015 10:29 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: H960 blank panel clips On 2015-07-29 08:24, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: From: Pete Turnbull: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 10:58 AM On 28/07/2015 18:22, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: What do folks think of the idea of thickening the shaft, terminating it in a hemisphere, but then cutting half-way down the result with a Y or X shaped cut? The cut would hopefully allow the result to flex and taper into the socket, providing plenty of grip without actually tearing anything up. Just a slit would do, and be much easier to incorporate in a moulded or machined item. I've placed a new design at: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/rack-bracket/bracket- new.jpg http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/rack-bracket/bracket-new.stl http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/rack-bracket/bracket- new.skp The .stl file is in inches, so remember to scale it if you are planning to 3D print it! For those just following along, the .jpg will be the most useful. The SketchUp file is also provided, but unless you're a SketchUp user like me, that's actually of little use. (Do not attempt to cut into the spherical sections unless you've done that sort of thing in SketchUp before -- it's very hard to get it right.) I don't know if the design will work -- will the slit will provide enough flexibility, will the post crack, etc. Vince The new design looks OK to me. As soon as I have an '.stp' type of file I could forward it to the Belgian company for an estimate. Once you have a 3D file there are many places that can print these in ABS which should be strong enough. Search here:- https://www.3dhubs.com/ Dave G4UGM Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.
Re: H960 blank panel clips
On 29/07/2015 07:24, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: I've placed a new design at: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/rack-bracket/bracket-new.jpg I don't know if the design will work -- will the slit will provide enough flexibility, will the post crack, etc. That looks pretty good to me, and the only refinements I'd suggest are these: Firstly, to add a small fillet to the junction of post and flat surface, so that there's a small radius, perhaps 0.5mm - 1.0mm, at the transition. The sharp transition will concentrate any stress, and a radius will reduce that. I'm not sure how much difference it makes for a 3D-printed object but it would be significant for injection moulding. The lack of any radii is actually part of the problem with the original, and the breaks always occur right either at the sharp transition between post and flat surface, or more often between post and ball. Secondly, and maybe less importantly, to make the lower part (maybe half the length) of the post a slightly smaller diameter - but not to the extent of reproducing the ball-on-a-thin-post of the original. This eases alignment, because as Al pointed out, the panel always tilts or twists as it's removed and that puts a bending strain on the joint - in this case, now at the post base than than just below the ball. Maybe that post should be a short spring ;-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: H960 blank panel clips
From: Charles Dickman: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:03 AM If the posts and balls are metal, the panel sockets are going to crack because there will not be any give in the shaft. If the ball and shaft is replaced with a solid pin, the panel sockets will get damaged because the socket will have to flex to conform to the pin. Ah, sorry. I had not payed close attention to how the counterpart works and automatically assumed it was some sort of metal spring fitted into a recess in the plastic panel that clips and holds onto the ball head. As I see now, it is just a tube-shaped outgrowth of the panel plastic itself. Phew... Anyway, thanks for clearing this up. Arno
Re: Equipment available (Wichita, Ks)
On 07/28/2015 08:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: Hmm, that's a CDC / Laser Magnetic Storage 92185 drive, right? Looks like it probably has the buffered Pertec interface, from the two connectors on the back. I've been looking for a 92185 with the SCSI interface (or just the SCSI interface board to plug into a generic 92185). Correct. That's an LMSI drive. Not much help in the way of markings other than LMSI and Keystone. It has the 2-cable Pertec interface. (I have 2 working 92185s with the Pertec interface, and I kludged-up a board that will read my archival tapes, but it would be nice to have one that makes a more direct connection.) I really wish I had a Pertec to SCSI bridge. It would have made these drives far more useful over the years. --Shaun
Re: H960 blank panel clips
On 29/07/2015 14:11, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: From: Pete Turnbull: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 2:57 AM Firstly, to add a small fillet to the junction of post and flat Are you referring to the junction of the post and the block? That would be easy enough to do (though tedious in SketchUp). Yes, that's where I meant. Or are you referring to the bottom edges of the slots? No, that shouldn't matter since it's in slight compression. One concern that I had was that the new design might end up trying to ovalize the (brittle) socket in the mating panel, since the new posts are only really compressible in one axis. I doubt that matters much either, because it's the posts that break, not the sockets. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: H960 blank panel clips
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: From: Pete Turnbull: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 2:57 AM On 29/07/2015 07:24, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: I've placed a new design at: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/rack-bracket/bracket-new.jpg That looks pretty good to me, and the only refinements I'd suggest are these: Firstly, to add a small fillet to the junction of post and flat surface, so that there's a small radius, perhaps 0.5mm - 1.0mm, at the transition. The sharp transition will concentrate any stress, and a radius will reduce that. I'm not sure how much difference it makes for a 3D-printed object but it would be significant for injection moulding. Are you referring to the junction of the post and the block? That would be easy enough to do (though tedious in SketchUp). ...which is why SketchUp shouldn't be used for CAD work. If you're using Windows, I strongly suggest you get DesignSpark Mechanical - it's free to use and has a work flow very similar to SketchUp. If you're not using Windows, give the current release of FreeCAD a shot. When it comes to CAD work, SketchUp is THE worst choice possible. You should also do your design work in metric if you expect to be having parts printed. Scaling isn't a practical solution because it can introduce problems depending on the slicer used. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: Reforming capacitors (technical description, not politics)
Better explanation than mine. Eric Smith space...@gmail.com wrote: Some people seem to think that reforming an aluminum electrolytic capacitor is some kind of cheat, akin to zapping NiCd cells or rejuvenating CRTs. Actually reforming is the same electrochemical process that the manufacturer uses to form the capacitor in the first place, building up the aluminum oxide layer, before the sheet is rolled into cylindrical form. The manufacturer typically uses a forming voltage higher than the rated voltage, from 135% to 200%, to provide margin for shelf life. When the capacitor goes unused for an extended time (shelf life), the oxide layer gradually breaks down, increasing the capacitor's leakage current and reducing the effective usable voltage of the capacitor, which is proportional to the minimum oxide thickness. If the oxide has developed spots that are too thin for the applied voltage, it may be damaged (punch-through) when that voltage is applied. Punch-through tends to be a runaway process, so even a small amount of punch-through usually completely ruins the capacitor. Reforming the capacitor by applying current-limited power rebuilds the oxide layer to prevent this type of damage, and to reduce the leakage current back to within the specifications. The current limiting is what prevents the reformation process from causing punch-through and damaging the capacitor. Many of the capacitor vendors actually publish recommendations for reforming their capacitors. See for example information on manufacture on pages 13-14 and a brief recommendation of reforming procedure on page of 17 of Kemet publication F3304 dated June 2009: http://www.kemet.com/ProductCatalog%20Documents/F3304.pdf Also pages 2-4 on manufacture and page 16 on recondition (reform) of CDE Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor Application Guide: http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/AEappGUIDE.pdf Also pages 1-5 of Nichicon General Description of Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors: http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdf/aluminum.pdf In at least some aluminum electrolytic capacitor manufacturing processes, there is actually a reforming step done after assembly, in addition to the initial forming. See page 9 of the Panasonic Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors Technical Guide, dated April 2013: http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/jp/i/29880/TAL_E/TAL_E.pdf The reforming process WILL NOT fix other things that may go wrong with the capacitor, such as failed seals allowing the electrolyte to dry out, or corrosion, or punch through which can result if the oxide layer is degraded and voltage is applied without current-limiting. The US DoD published a technical handbook detailing their policies and procedures for reforming aluminum electrolytic capacitors that sit in inventory for years, MIL-HDBK-1131. As of 1999 this is for guidance only and should not be cited as a requirement, but the information in the handbook may be useful in determining or evaluating requirements. For non-mil-spec capacitors, it recommends inspection and possible reformation every 3-6 years of shelf storage. It recommends disposal after 12 years of shelf storage, but AFAICT they're just being conservative, possibly due in part to not having enough practical experience with reforming very old capacitors. Shelf storage is of course equivalent to having the capacitor in-circuit but unpowered. Having the capacitor powered in circuit for any significant length of time will reform the oxide to some extent based on the applied voltage, though not up to original factory spec. When I reform capacitors myself, I use a reforming voltage of 135% of the rated voltage. Since I use a suitably low current limit, this has no significant probability of damaging the capacitor, but as with the initial factory forming, provides some margin for further shelf life. In my experience, aluminum electrolytic capacitors in equipment that has been unpowered for 30 years or more almost always need reformation, but they almost always meet factory specs (capacitance, ESR, and leakage at rated voltage) after reformation. Since I don't tend to restore equipment newer than that, I don't have any empirical data on how much shelf life they can have without needing reformation. I'm not particularly advocating for or against reformation, as compared to replacement. Anyone restoring equipment with electrolytic capacitors is advised to to read the references and decide for themselves. Eric
