Re: PRM-85 board case?

[Glen Slick]

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Jay West  wrote:
> Rumor has it that one or more people have designed and 3d-printed cases for
> their HP-85 PRM-85 boards. Anyone have any of those cases available? I'd
> like to get my PRM-85 a proper case :)
>

I would like to hear about that too. I also have a bare PRM-85 board.
It would be nice to have a proper case for it without gutting another
plug in I/O module for it's case.

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Feb 6, 2016, at 19:18, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> If you're not interested in a "authentic" look, a plain old lithium primary 
> coin cell or two, with a blocking diode in this circuit should work for years.

I might tuck a CR123 in a holder inside the case somewhere, with a blocking 
diode. I think I already have some suitable holders left over from when I did 
the same thing to repair a bad NVRAM battery in an old HP digital oscilloscope. 
It was hard to get to the original cell in that one (an AA sized one with wire 
leads, as I recall), so I replaced it with a CR123 mounted remotely inside the 
back panel so that the next replacement will be easier.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Chuck Guzis]

On 02/06/2016 05:05 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:


Voltage?  Recharging circuits?  Current sinking capacity.  It's not
always a 1:1 mapping.



You're talking about RTC and perhaps a bit of static RAM maintenance. 
If this RTC unit is like most of the same era, the operating voltage 
range is quite wide (probably about 2-7V) and sub-1ma current draw. 
Chargers for this type of application are usually very low current, so 
"cooking' some AA cells is a very remote prospect.  This is hardly a 
power-hungry project.


If you're not interested in a "authentic" look, a plain old lithium 
primary coin cell or two, with a blocking diode in this circuit should 
work for years.


--Chuck

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Feb 6, 2016, at 16:59, Chris Pye  wrote:
> This is what I normally do, preferably mounted away from the board. Generally 
> you can get away with simply using a diode to prevent the circuit trying to 
> charge the battery.

I think that a blocking diode added in the positive lead of a non-rechargeable 
replacement battery should work in this application. After further thought, 
lifting one end of the diode in the existing charging circuit would not be 
ideal because that would mean the RTC would always draw power from the battery, 
rather than drawing power from the main power supply when the computer is 
turned on.

> On Feb 6, 2016, at 15:37, Brent Hilpert  wrote:
> 
> My favorite solution, for the right circumstances, is to mount a 2, 3 or 4 
> cell AA or AAA battery holder on the outside/rear and use common alkaline 
> cells.

That's not a bad idea!


> Right circumstances comes down mostly to current draw. If the function is 
> purely CMOS memory retention the current draw is equivalent to static/idle 
> leakage and you can expect shelf life from alkaline batteries. An RTC is 
> going to draw some current due to the active circuitry. I'm not sure what the 
> current draw for an RTC of that era is, the tech should be CMOS and the draw 
> small but not as small as simple memory retention.

Let's see, the RTC in this case is a Ricoh RP5C01. It has 26 x 4 bits of RAM, 
but I'm not aware of any parameters stored in it (neither have I investigated 
thoroughly; I just don't recall ever seeing the sorts of parameter settings on 
Amigas that PC family machines usually have). Its rated maximum operating 
supply current at Vcc = 5.0V is 250µA. It's probably quite a bit lower at 
typical conditions while operating from a backup battery at Vcc = 3.0-3.6V, but 
still a lot higher than the 500nA ratings I recall seeing on much newer RTC 
chips.


> On Feb 6, 2016, at 17:03, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> I see all the talk about NiCd cells--does no one use NiMH nowadays?  Why go 
> with the toxics?
> 
> --Chuck

NiMH is worth considering; I would just need to study the charging circuit 
carefully before changing secondary battery chemistry.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Farewell and thanks!

[jwsmobile]

On 2/6/2016 4:14 PM, drlegendre . wrote:

Lacking any other clue (such as accent, mannerisms) that the speaker may
have different cultural norms, how is one to tell plain, friendly
discoursing from a demeaning, brusque or curt tone?

Absent the many critical but subtle cues we receive when engaging in live,
interpersonal conversation, the written word - particularly the functional
and casual way we use it here - is open to broad (mis-)interpretation at
almost every turn.

I'll close by saying that, like most of you, I've had the odd run-in with
what first seemed like a real twat on the net. But in every case, when we
took it up personally, off-list, I've never walked away with anything but a
satisfied mind and a more thoughtful and dare I say favorable opinion of
the person on the other end.

I recall you and I had words at one time, but you've helped me sense and 
I value having you on the list and as an associate here.  That's just 
the way things go.  If you don't get vulgar and fuss about things like 
that, I see no reason not to fuss from time to time and go on.


Thanks
Jim

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On Feb 6, 2016, at 5:31 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki  wrote:
> 
>> Voltage?  Recharging circuits?  Current sinking capacity.  It's not 
>> always a 1:1 mapping.
> 
> Sure, but does it really matter in a typical battery-backed-up RAM or RTC 
> application seen in computers?  I swapped the dead original NiCd pack for 
> a compatible NiMH one in my DECstation 2100 some half a year ago and the 
> machine seems rather happy about the replacement.

It all depends on your definition of 'typical'.  In most cases, a NiMH coin 
cell will happily replace a NiCd one.  But it's not always a 1:1 mapping.  It 
never is if 'recharge' is uttered in the sentence.

You need to spend a minute looking at the circuit before declaring MH <==> NH.  
It's no different than when you make any other part substitution.  But when 
you're mucking around with something that *feeds* power into a circuit, it's 
worth paying a bit of attention, lest surprises come along.

Re: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS

[Richard Loken]

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Chris Halarewich wrote:


ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/mosaic/mosaic.zip


Thank you Chris, I will have a look.  Maybe there is more of interest than
just Mosaic.

But that does not answer the question.  Is mosaic a more useful browser 
than than Seamonkey (CSWB) in 2016?


--
  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
  Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our
  Athabasca, Alberta Canada: heads are naked!"
  ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Maciej W. Rozycki]

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> > I see all the talk about NiCd cells--does no one use NiMH nowadays?  
> > Why go with the toxics?
> 
> Voltage?  Recharging circuits?  Current sinking capacity.  It's not 
> always a 1:1 mapping.

 Sure, but does it really matter in a typical battery-backed-up RAM or RTC 
application seen in computers?  I swapped the dead original NiCd pack for 
a compatible NiMH one in my DECstation 2100 some half a year ago and the 
machine seems rather happy about the replacement.

  Maciej

Re: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS

[Richard Loken]

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Sue Skonetski wrote:

Can you please send me email I am going to check with the VMS 
Engineering Team.  We have done a great deal of work in the Open Source 
space?  Also have you tried Firefox on Alpha?


Hi Sue, I don't know what I can say.

It is a number of years since I looked for a web browser for OpenVMS on 
Alpha and at that time the HP website said that they had the Compaq Secure 
Web Browser (CSWB) which was a port of Mozilla Seamonkey and I do not 
recall the version. The website said that they had a Firefox port for 
IA64.


Looking at my VMS box, the CSWB directory is dated in 2013 when I last
rebuilt this machine and my latest version of the HP freeware collection
is dated 2009.

I am way out of touch.

--
  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
  Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our
  Athabasca, Alberta Canada: heads are naked!"
  ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On Feb 6, 2016, at 5:03 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> I see all the talk about NiCd cells--does no one use NiMH nowadays?  Why go 
> with the toxics?

Voltage?  Recharging circuits?  Current sinking capacity.  It's not always a 
1:1 mapping.

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Chuck Guzis]

I see all the talk about NiCd cells--does no one use NiMH nowadays?  Why 
go with the toxics?


--Chuck

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Chris Pye]

> On 7 Feb 2016, at 7:21 am, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
> 
> * Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a 
> holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.

This is what I normally do, preferably mounted away from the board. Generally 
you can get away with simply using a diode to prevent the circuit trying to 
charge the battery.

Chris

Programming

[Murray McCullough]

There is the software side to classic computing: Back in the early
days we wrote/coded in BASIC-TinyBASIC running in 2K(talk about
writing efficient code!); EASY and SmallFORTRAN. What apps/programs
are written in today I don’t know. They certainly can’t run in 2 or 4
K but is the outcome the same – make a computer or computer-like
machine do what we want it to.

On the lighter side: “Computers can never completely replace humans.
They may become capable of artificial intelligence(much in the news
today), but they will never master real stupidity.”

Happy computing all.

Murray  :)

Re: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS

[Chris Halarewich]

ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/mosaic/mosaic.zip


On 2/6/16, Chris Halarewich  wrote:
> VMS Mosaic is supported on VAXes running OpenVMS 5.4-3 thru 7.3, on
> Alpha systems using OpenVMS V1.5 thru 8.2, and on IA64 systems running
> OpenVMS V8.1 thru 8.2-1.  Mosaic will work with UCX (TCP/IP Services),
> CMU, MultiNet, Pathway, TCPware or SOCKETSHR with NETLIB.  CMU TCP/IP
> is supported via LIBCMUII or SOCKETSHR.  The Mosaic has been compiled
> with VAX C, DEC C and GNU C (VAX version 2.7.1 only).  Versions 1.1
> thru 1.5 of DECwindows Motif are supported.  Both HP SSL and OpenSSL
> are supported for secure connections.
>
> On 2/6/16, Richard Loken  wrote:
>> Gentlemen, I stumbled across a reference to Mosaic 4.0 for VMS dated
>> 2006.
>>
>> I ran Mosaic on my VMS workstation around 1994 and had abandoned it long
>> ago first for Netscape 3.0.3 and later for Seamonkey.
>>
>> I did not know that there was any development on Mosaic in recent decades
>> I found Seamonkey to be glacially slow on AlphaServer 4100 "desktop" and
>> so I have not attempted to do much web browsing on VMS in recent years.
>>
>> So...  Is Mosaic 4.0 useful in 2016?  Is it more useful than Seamonkey?
>> Netscape?  AFAIR, HP had a port of Firefox to IA64 VMS but not to Alpha,
>> has anybody been so burdened with spare time that they have attempted
>> to port firefox to Alpha or VAX VMS?  Or any other web browser?
>>
>> I hope to attempt a port of the heritage version of nroff/troff to VMS
>> some time in the next couple years (I think groff would be much more
>> difficult).  But that is a differant subject.
>>
>> --
>>Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath
>> those
>>Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our
>>Athabasca, Alberta Canada: heads are naked!"
>>** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Halarewich
>


-- 
Chris Halarewich

Re: Farewell and thanks!

[drlegendre .]

Lacking any other clue (such as accent, mannerisms) that the speaker may
have different cultural norms, how is one to tell plain, friendly
discoursing from a demeaning, brusque or curt tone?

Absent the many critical but subtle cues we receive when engaging in live,
interpersonal conversation, the written word - particularly the functional
and casual way we use it here - is open to broad (mis-)interpretation at
almost every turn.

I'll close by saying that, like most of you, I've had the odd run-in with
what first seemed like a real twat on the net. But in every case, when we
took it up personally, off-list, I've never walked away with anything but a
satisfied mind and a more thoughtful and dare I say favorable opinion of
the person on the other end.

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 11:16 AM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
>
> On 2/6/2016 10:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> On 5 February 2016 at 23:54, Steven Hirsch  wrote:
>>
>>> I've finally had my fill of the general grumpiness and bluntly worded
>>> interactions on this list.
>>>
>>> Over the years I have learned a lot and would like to particularly
>>> express
>>> my thanks to Tony Duell, Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly
>>> polite and very forthcoming with technical advice.
>>>
>> I apologise for the offence that I have given.
>>
>> I am British, not American, and the tone of European converse is far
>> too abrupt and confrontational for an American-dominated forum. I was
>> rebuked by moderators twice that day alone for comments which I had
>> thought were reasonable and proportionate.
>>
>> I was wrong. My comments were inappropriate. I regret them and
>> apologise for them.
>>
>
> On the other hand, Liam, maybe some people should just grow a bit of a
> thicker skin and understand that other cultures can be different.
>
> - J.
>

Re: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS

[Chris Halarewich]

VMS Mosaic is supported on VAXes running OpenVMS 5.4-3 thru 7.3, on
Alpha systems using OpenVMS V1.5 thru 8.2, and on IA64 systems running
OpenVMS V8.1 thru 8.2-1.  Mosaic will work with UCX (TCP/IP Services),
CMU, MultiNet, Pathway, TCPware or SOCKETSHR with NETLIB.  CMU TCP/IP
is supported via LIBCMUII or SOCKETSHR.  The Mosaic has been compiled
with VAX C, DEC C and GNU C (VAX version 2.7.1 only).  Versions 1.1
thru 1.5 of DECwindows Motif are supported.  Both HP SSL and OpenSSL
are supported for secure connections.

On 2/6/16, Richard Loken  wrote:
> Gentlemen, I stumbled across a reference to Mosaic 4.0 for VMS dated 2006.
>
> I ran Mosaic on my VMS workstation around 1994 and had abandoned it long
> ago first for Netscape 3.0.3 and later for Seamonkey.
>
> I did not know that there was any development on Mosaic in recent decades
> I found Seamonkey to be glacially slow on AlphaServer 4100 "desktop" and
> so I have not attempted to do much web browsing on VMS in recent years.
>
> So...  Is Mosaic 4.0 useful in 2016?  Is it more useful than Seamonkey?
> Netscape?  AFAIR, HP had a port of Firefox to IA64 VMS but not to Alpha,
> has anybody been so burdened with spare time that they have attempted
> to port firefox to Alpha or VAX VMS?  Or any other web browser?
>
> I hope to attempt a port of the heritage version of nroff/troff to VMS
> some time in the next couple years (I think groff would be much more
> difficult).  But that is a differant subject.
>
> --
>Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
>Athabasca University  : tuques we wear, our
>Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!"
>** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black
>


-- 
Chris Halarewich

Re: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS

[Sue Skonetski]

Dear Richard,

Can you please send me email I am going to check with the VMS Engineering Team. 
 We have done a great deal of work in the Open Source space?  Also have you 
tried Firefox on Alpha?

Warm Regards,
Sue



> On Feb 6, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Richard Loken  wrote:
> 
> Gentlemen, I stumbled across a reference to Mosaic 4.0 for VMS dated 2006.
> 
> I ran Mosaic on my VMS workstation around 1994 and had abandoned it long
> ago first for Netscape 3.0.3 and later for Seamonkey.
> 
> I did not know that there was any development on Mosaic in recent decades
> I found Seamonkey to be glacially slow on AlphaServer 4100 "desktop" and
> so I have not attempted to do much web browsing on VMS in recent years.
> 
> So...  Is Mosaic 4.0 useful in 2016?  Is it more useful than Seamonkey?
> Netscape?  AFAIR, HP had a port of Firefox to IA64 VMS but not to Alpha,
> has anybody been so burdened with spare time that they have attempted
> to port firefox to Alpha or VAX VMS?  Or any other web browser?
> 
> I hope to attempt a port of the heritage version of nroff/troff to VMS
> some time in the next couple years (I think groff would be much more 
> difficult).  But that is a differant subject.
> 
> -- 
>  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
>  Athabasca University: tuques we wear, our
>  Athabasca, Alberta Canada   : heads are naked!"
>  ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black

Sue Skonetski

VP of Customer Advocacy
sue.skonet...@vmssoftware.com
Office: +1 (978) 451-0116
Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886







Mit freundlichen Grüßen – Avec mes meilleures salutations

Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS

[Richard Loken]

Gentlemen, I stumbled across a reference to Mosaic 4.0 for VMS dated 2006.

I ran Mosaic on my VMS workstation around 1994 and had abandoned it long
ago first for Netscape 3.0.3 and later for Seamonkey.

I did not know that there was any development on Mosaic in recent decades
I found Seamonkey to be glacially slow on AlphaServer 4100 "desktop" and
so I have not attempted to do much web browsing on VMS in recent years.

So...  Is Mosaic 4.0 useful in 2016?  Is it more useful than Seamonkey?
Netscape?  AFAIR, HP had a port of Firefox to IA64 VMS but not to Alpha,
has anybody been so burdened with spare time that they have attempted
to port firefox to Alpha or VAX VMS?  Or any other web browser?

I hope to attempt a port of the heritage version of nroff/troff to VMS
some time in the next couple years (I think groff would be much more 
difficult).  But that is a differant subject.


--
  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
  Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our
  Athabasca, Alberta Canada: heads are naked!"
  ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Feb-06, at 1:21 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> Today I discovered that I hadn't replaced the NiCd battery in time in my 
> Amiga 3000. Pictures:
> 
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696042894939979776
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696050264306921472
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696065578977472512
> 
> It's a fairly typical 3.6V 60mAH 3-cell NiCd pack, 16mm diameter x 18mm long, 
> polarized with 2 pins on the positive end and 1 pin on the negative end.
> 
> In the past I have usually replaced these sorts of batteries with new ones of 
> the same type. This time, I'm thinking of at least installing a remote 
> holder. Not only to prevent further PCB damage in the future, but also to 
> make the battery easier to replace. Lots of screws need to come out to 
> extract an A3000 motherboard:
> 
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696047816938946560
> 
> While I begin to figure out how I'd like to perform this repair, I'm curious 
> about what others have decided to do in similar circumstances. Many options 
> come to mind:
> 
> * Solder in the same kind of NiCd pack to keep things original.
> 
> * Solder in a supercap instead.
> 
> * Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a 
> holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.
> 
> * Yet some other remote battery option.
> 

My favorite solution, for the right circumstances, is to mount a 2, 3 or 4 cell 
AA or AAA battery holder on the outside/rear and use common alkaline cells.

Right circumstances comes down mostly to current draw. If the function is 
purely CMOS memory retention the current draw is equivalent to static/idle 
leakage and you can expect shelf life from alkaline batteries. An RTC is going 
to draw some current due to the active circuitry. I'm not sure what the current 
draw for an RTC of that era is, the tech should be CMOS and the draw small but 
not as small as simple memory retention.

The advantages of this solution:
- AA/AAA alkaline cells are commonly available and relatively 
inexpensive.

- depending on current draw, you can often use otherwise-worn-out 
alkaline cells.
 For example, cells that are no longer usable in your remote control or 
flashlight can still
 have enough potential to maintain CMOS memory for years.

- alkaline cells tend not to leak and generally can be ignored for 
years.

- if mounted on the exterior, damage in the event of leakage will be 
minimal.

- if mounted on the exterior, they're accessible for replacement.

The more cells you use, the more headroom/longevity there is as the cells wear 
down, but too high a voltage with newer cells also has to be accounted for.

If the original design was for rechargeable batteries one will have to disable 
the charging function and may have to install isolation diodes. 

Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?

[Dan K]

A lot of good information here, and I have a music store near me that
I might be able to find a suitable felt or wool pad from. If not
there, then perhaps at Home Depot or online.

Was it uncommon to use floppy disks formatted in other 8" drives in a
machine like this? When someone (very charitably!) gave me this
machine he also provided me with copies of the disks it came with,
presumably from drives that would be compatible.

Let's say that I had a machine with just blank floppy disks, however,
and nothing more than a system monitor ROM that lets me read/write
memory. How could I go from this zero state to running software from a
floppy? Is it easy to write arbitrary bytes to a floppy, so that I
could write a small shim program to read from serial and write to the
floppy? Then I could transfer the disk image over the wire, write it,
then read from it.

Thanks,
Dan

On 2/6/16, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> On 02/06/2016 10:18 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>> D'ya mean a tuba spit-valve pad?
>
> No, those are cork, not felt.  On brasswinds, felt's usually used as a
> cushioning device on piston valves, so things don't go "clank clank".
> Rotary valves employ cork or rubber for a similar use.  Pianos use a
> great deal of felt.
>
> You might even be able to round up a strip of felt from a laser printer
> fuser assembly--used to wipe the fuser drum.
>
> But see, for example, something from Ferree's:
>
> http://www.ferreestools.com/cork-felt/felt.html
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Mark J. Blair]

In this Amiga, the battery is just for a real time clock. I don't think the 
A3000 saves any parameters in nonvolatile memory. 

PRM-85 board case?

[Jay West]

Rumor has it that one or more people have designed and 3d-printed cases for
their HP-85 PRM-85 boards. Anyone have any of those cases available? I'd
like to get my PRM-85 a proper case :)

Best,

J

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[John Robertson]

On 02/06/2016 1:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

On Feb 6, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:

Today I discovered that I hadn't replaced the NiCd battery in time in my Amiga 
3000. Pictures:
...
While I begin to figure out how I'd like to perform this repair, I'm curious 
about what others have decided to do in similar circumstances. Many options 
come to mind:

* Solder in the same kind of NiCd pack to keep things original.

I haven't yet done this, but I have a device (Fluke 881AB voltmeter) with dead 
NiCd batteries, and when I get around to replacing them that's what I was 
thinking of.  NiCd batteries are still available.


* Solder in a supercap instead.

That has vastly less capacity, and a very different discharge curve 
(exponential vs. nearly flat).  Depending on the circuit using it, that might 
work slightly (at 10% capacity, maybe) or not really at all.


* Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a 
holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.

It hasn't happened to me, but have heard of one case of a leaking Li primary 
cell.  Not a coin cell, but a C-sized one: I remember a report of one leaking 
in an automatic parachute opener (AAD), wrecking the parachute.  In fairness, 
that was one left in quite a number of years beyond its expiration date.  
(Before someone asks the obvious: the problem was found during a required 
inspection on the ground.)

paul





If you are running batteries in your machines you need to watch out for 
battery leakage! These are all alkaline batteries so the only way to 
neutralize the leakage is to wash and scrub with a mild acid - white 
vinegar mixed 50/50 with pure water works very well.


Next, depending on the RAM device, it may be possible to use a 
Ferromagnetic device to replace these - they are good for over 100 years 
at 1mHz!


5101, 6116, 6264, and others are available from several suppliers 
(including me). I have no idea what CMOS RAM is used in the Amiga, but 
something needs to be done to protect these machines from 
self-destruction by battery suicide!


Currently I have not seen a replacement for CMOS RAM that use separate 
DI and DO pins such as some users of 5101s, but I am trying to get this 
going...


John :-#(#

--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
 www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
 www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[John Robertson]

On 02/06/2016 1:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

On Feb 6, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:

Today I discovered that I hadn't replaced the NiCd battery in time in my Amiga 
3000. Pictures:
...
While I begin to figure out how I'd like to perform this repair, I'm curious 
about what others have decided to do in similar circumstances. Many options 
come to mind:

* Solder in the same kind of NiCd pack to keep things original.

I haven't yet done this, but I have a device (Fluke 881AB voltmeter) with dead 
NiCd batteries, and when I get around to replacing them that's what I was 
thinking of.  NiCd batteries are still available.


* Solder in a supercap instead.

That has vastly less capacity, and a very different discharge curve 
(exponential vs. nearly flat).  Depending on the circuit using it, that might 
work slightly (at 10% capacity, maybe) or not really at all.


* Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a 
holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.

It hasn't happened to me, but have heard of one case of a leaking Li primary 
cell.  Not a coin cell, but a C-sized one: I remember a report of one leaking 
in an automatic parachute opener (AAD), wrecking the parachute.  In fairness, 
that was one left in quite a number of years beyond its expiration date.  
(Before someone asks the obvious: the problem was found during a required 
inspection on the ground.)

paul





If you are running batteries in your machines you need to watch out for 
battery leakage! These are all alkaline batteries so the only way to 
neutralize the leakage is to wash and scrub with a mild acid - white 
vinegar mixed 50/50 with pure water works very well.


Next, depending on the RAM device, it may be possible to use a 
Ferromagnetic device to replace these - they are good for over 100 years 
at 1mHz!


5101, 6116, 6264, and others are available from several suppliers 
(including me). I have no idea what CMOS RAM is used in the Amiga, but 
something needs to be done to protect these machines from 
self-destruction by battery suicide!


Currently I have not seen a replacement for CMOS RAM that use separate 
DI and DO pins such as some users of 5101s, but I am trying to get this 
going...


John :-#(#

--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
 www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"

Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 6, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
> 
> Today I discovered that I hadn't replaced the NiCd battery in time in my 
> Amiga 3000. Pictures:
> ...
> While I begin to figure out how I'd like to perform this repair, I'm curious 
> about what others have decided to do in similar circumstances. Many options 
> come to mind:
> 
> * Solder in the same kind of NiCd pack to keep things original.

I haven't yet done this, but I have a device (Fluke 881AB voltmeter) with dead 
NiCd batteries, and when I get around to replacing them that's what I was 
thinking of.  NiCd batteries are still available.

> * Solder in a supercap instead.

That has vastly less capacity, and a very different discharge curve 
(exponential vs. nearly flat).  Depending on the circuit using it, that might 
work slightly (at 10% capacity, maybe) or not really at all.

> * Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a 
> holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.

It hasn't happened to me, but have heard of one case of a leaking Li primary 
cell.  Not a coin cell, but a C-sized one: I remember a report of one leaking 
in an automatic parachute opener (AAD), wrecking the parachute.  In fairness, 
that was one left in quite a number of years beyond its expiration date.  
(Before someone asks the obvious: the problem was found during a required 
inspection on the ground.)

paul

NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

[Mark J. Blair]

Today I discovered that I hadn't replaced the NiCd battery in time in my Amiga 
3000. Pictures:

https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696042894939979776
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696050264306921472
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696065578977472512

It's a fairly typical 3.6V 60mAH 3-cell NiCd pack, 16mm diameter x 18mm long, 
polarized with 2 pins on the positive end and 1 pin on the negative end.

In the past I have usually replaced these sorts of batteries with new ones of 
the same type. This time, I'm thinking of at least installing a remote holder. 
Not only to prevent further PCB damage in the future, but also to make the 
battery easier to replace. Lots of screws need to come out to extract an A3000 
motherboard:

https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696047816938946560

While I begin to figure out how I'd like to perform this repair, I'm curious 
about what others have decided to do in similar circumstances. Many options 
come to mind:

* Solder in the same kind of NiCd pack to keep things original.

* Solder in a supercap instead.

* Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a 
holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.

* Yet some other remote battery option.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: emergency moderation mode RE: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2

[Jerome H. Fine]

>Dave Mabry wrote:


Jay West wrote on 2/6/2016 11:51 AM:

I had already turned on emergency moderation mode to try and stem the 
tide
of this escalating further. I had also already emailed a few people 
off-list
about this, which is primarily how it should be handled. Those who 
should

have been corrected... were. Quietly.

I'm rather tired of (a very few) people commenting "oh, this list is 
so much
smaller than other forums" or "there's such a low SNRatio here" or 
"Everyone
here is unfriendly (or things like that)". Screw all of that. I 
submit that

while this list may be small, it has the best content and expertise, far
better than others (I've looked). I submit that while the SNRatio 
gets off
track once in a great while, I've seen that happen elsewhere, and at 
least
as often if not more. Perhaps some should use their technical 
expertise to

study the function of the "delete" key. Quite frankly I don't think it
happens here all that often. Unfriendly? Perhaps there are a few that 
are
brisque at times. On the one hand - Guess what... that's life. In any 
crowd
there's always a few grumpy old men (of which I am one - especially 
at the
moment), and  socially well-adjusted people should learn how to deal 
with it
and get along. On the other hand - That doesn't mean I don't correct 
those

that need correcting (and I did) .. but I really don't need to hear the
whining. It seems that there are one or two people that state they don't
want to participate because of one or more of the above... yet they stay
here solely to voice that opinion. Odd.


Jay,

Don't let it get you down.  In any population, even a small one, there 
are going to be people in both tails of the normal distribution.  I 
get pretty quick on the delete key when one of those tails starts 
complaining about this list.  I greatly enjoy and thank you for the 
work you put into it.


Thank you!


I add my agreement as well.  This is probably one of the very few topics
that I will reply to and NOT keep a copy.  The DELETE key is the one
I use the most.

And I also specifically add my appreciation for the job that Jay West does!

Jerome Fine

Re: emergency moderation mode RE: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2

[Ian S. King]

+1

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Dave Mabry  wrote:

> Jay West wrote on 2/6/2016 11:51 AM:
>
>> I had already turned on emergency moderation mode to try and stem the tide
>> of this escalating further. I had also already emailed a few people
>> off-list
>> about this, which is primarily how it should be handled. Those who should
>> have been corrected... were. Quietly.
>>
>> I'm rather tired of (a very few) people commenting "oh, this list is so
>> much
>> smaller than other forums" or "there's such a low SNRatio here" or
>> "Everyone
>> here is unfriendly (or things like that)". Screw all of that. I submit
>> that
>> while this list may be small, it has the best content and expertise, far
>> better than others (I've looked). I submit that while the SNRatio gets off
>> track once in a great while, I've seen that happen elsewhere, and at least
>> as often if not more. Perhaps some should use their technical expertise to
>> study the function of the "delete" key. Quite frankly I don't think it
>> happens here all that often. Unfriendly? Perhaps there are a few that are
>> brisque at times. On the one hand - Guess what... that's life. In any
>> crowd
>> there's always a few grumpy old men (of which I am one - especially at the
>> moment), and  socially well-adjusted people should learn how to deal with
>> it
>> and get along. On the other hand - That doesn't mean I don't correct those
>> that need correcting (and I did) .. but I really don't need to hear the
>> whining. It seems that there are one or two people that state they don't
>> want to participate because of one or more of the above... yet they stay
>> here solely to voice that opinion. Odd.
>>
>> J
>>
>
> Jay,
>
> Don't let it get you down.  In any population, even a small one, there are
> going to be people in both tails of the normal distribution.  I get pretty
> quick on the delete key when one of those tails starts complaining about
> this list.  I greatly enjoy and thank you for the work you put into it.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Dave
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: emergency moderation mode RE: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2

[Dave Mabry]

Jay West wrote on 2/6/2016 11:51 AM:

I had already turned on emergency moderation mode to try and stem the tide
of this escalating further. I had also already emailed a few people off-list
about this, which is primarily how it should be handled. Those who should
have been corrected... were. Quietly.

I'm rather tired of (a very few) people commenting "oh, this list is so much
smaller than other forums" or "there's such a low SNRatio here" or "Everyone
here is unfriendly (or things like that)". Screw all of that. I submit that
while this list may be small, it has the best content and expertise, far
better than others (I've looked). I submit that while the SNRatio gets off
track once in a great while, I've seen that happen elsewhere, and at least
as often if not more. Perhaps some should use their technical expertise to
study the function of the "delete" key. Quite frankly I don't think it
happens here all that often. Unfriendly? Perhaps there are a few that are
brisque at times. On the one hand - Guess what... that's life. In any crowd
there's always a few grumpy old men (of which I am one - especially at the
moment), and  socially well-adjusted people should learn how to deal with it
and get along. On the other hand - That doesn't mean I don't correct those
that need correcting (and I did) .. but I really don't need to hear the
whining. It seems that there are one or two people that state they don't
want to participate because of one or more of the above... yet they stay
here solely to voice that opinion. Odd.

J


Jay,

Don't let it get you down.  In any population, even a small one, there 
are going to be people in both tails of the normal distribution.  I get 
pretty quick on the delete key when one of those tails starts 
complaining about this list.  I greatly enjoy and thank you for the work 
you put into it.


Thank you!

Dave

Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 02/06/2016 10:18 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:


D'ya mean a tuba spit-valve pad?


No, those are cork, not felt.  On brasswinds, felt's usually used as a 
cushioning device on piston valves, so things don't go "clank clank". 
Rotary valves employ cork or rubber for a similar use.  Pianos use a 
great deal of felt.


You might even be able to round up a strip of felt from a laser printer 
fuser assembly--used to wipe the fuser drum.


But see, for example, something from Ferree's:

http://www.ferreestools.com/cork-felt/felt.html

--Chuck

Re: Farewell and thanks!

[Mouse]

>> [...] would like to particularly express my thanks to Tony Duell,
>> Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly polite and very
>> forthcoming with technical advice.
> That is the first time I have been called 'polite'.

I concur.  While my interaction with you has been limited to the list,
in my experience you have been unfailingly polite.  That's not to say
you haven't called idiocy idiocy; it's entirely possible to do that
while remaining polite.  Polite != nice, after all.)

> You've not met me when I've just dropped an R80 on my toe.  Or had
> EHT flash over to my fingers... Or [...]

I think we all ahve such moments.  I know I certainly do. :-)

> had to deal with a  (note : That is not somebody who
> doesn't know something and who wants to learn.  I will always try to
> make time for that).

I sometimes say that ignorance is curable but stupid is forever. :-)

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: emergency moderation mode RE: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: "Jay West" 
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 11:51 AM

...
> I submit that while this list may be small, it has the best content and 
> expertise, far better than others (I've looked). I submit that while the 
> SNRatio gets off track once in a great while, I've seen that happen 
> elsewhere, and at least as often if not more. 
...
 Reply ---

Agreed, especially when it comes to DEC, HP and big iron. IMO this is one of 
the best maintained and unobtrusively moderated lists out there these days; 
thank you, Jay and anyone else involved.

While understandable, it's unfortunate that some folks choose to leave when 
they become too annoyed; it's usually a loss both to the list and the 
(ex-)member...

m

Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?

[Fred Cisin]

Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.


On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Got any chums in the musical instrument repair business? Wind instruments 
(woodwind and brass) use a fair amount of very high-quality wool felt and a 
dot the size of a pressure pad should be easy to come by.


D'ya mean a tuba spit-valve pad?

I've even heard of people using the felt pads sold in hardware stores as 
cabinet door bumpers or padding for the bottom of table lamps and such.


Most of those are too thin and hard

Re: Farewell and thanks!

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 2/6/2016 10:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

On 5 February 2016 at 23:54, Steven Hirsch  wrote:

I've finally had my fill of the general grumpiness and bluntly worded
interactions on this list.

Over the years I have learned a lot and would like to particularly express
my thanks to Tony Duell, Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly
polite and very forthcoming with technical advice.

I apologise for the offence that I have given.

I am British, not American, and the tone of European converse is far
too abrupt and confrontational for an American-dominated forum. I was
rebuked by moderators twice that day alone for comments which I had
thought were reasonable and proportionate.

I was wrong. My comments were inappropriate. I regret them and
apologise for them.


On the other hand, Liam, maybe some 
people should just grow a bit of a 
thicker skin and understand that other 
cultures can be different.


- J.

Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On Feb 5, 2016, at 21:46, Dan K <100dash...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.



I use felt cleaning pellets for a .20 
caliber pellet gun, and cut them to size.


- j.

Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/05/2016 11:46 PM, Dan K wrote:

Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.


Probably the pressure pad in an audio cassette is about the 
same material.  Depending on how large a diameter the floppy 
drive's pad was, one from a cassette might not be big enough.


Jon

Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 02/05/2016 09:46 PM, Dan K wrote:

Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.


Got any chums in the musical instrument repair business? Wind 
instruments (woodwind and brass) use a fair amount of very high-quality 
wool felt and a dot the size of a pressure pad should be easy to come by.


I've even heard of people using the felt pads sold in hardware stores as 
cabinet door bumpers or padding for the bottom of table lamps and such.


--Chuck

Re: Farewell and thanks!

[Tomasz Rola]

On Fri, Feb 05, 2016 at 08:39:07PM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
> >Mouse wrote:
> 
[...]
> >Usually, as in this case, this turns out to be because (for
> >unrelated reasons) I go to some lengths to avoid seeing anything
> >that was sent through gmail, even laundered through mailing lists.
> >(This loses me some mail I regret losing, but, so far, not enough
> >to make me take out those blocks.  And note that it's not people
> >using gmail addresses I block, but mail actually sent through
> >gmail.)

Like, as if the email had been written in a browser? Or in a phone
app? Intriguing idea. I have collected quite some mails from all those
lists I subscribe to. I wish I could find time to explore this
further. Perhaps even come to conclusion. I think I will write a note
to myself about it and if I ever find the note...

[...]
> And since I receive so much help for the very few things that I really
> need like help for a new system, it is really very reasonable to spend
> the few minutes each day to sift out the chaff (at least what I regard
> as chaff - not at all identical for anyone else of course) from the good
> stuff.
> 
> I rarely reply to this sort of speculation, but I regard Mouse's opinions
> quite highly, in addition to Tony Duell whom I regard the most.

I subscribed to this list exactly because of huge body of collective
knowledge. Right now, the only ancient machines I have is 20 years old
Pentium clone (my first Linux installed, probably dead, but it might
be interesting to give it a try) and maybe some 12-15 years old Compaq
iPAQ PDA (back in time I replaced WindowsCE with Linux, very
pleasurable experience to have it in a pocket, despite some weight,
possibly still boots, will have to check). So I am not too much of a
collector :-). However, I keep collecting scraps of knowledge, a piece
a time, in my own slooow manner. Thus it makes me a bit uneasy
when I see people going away.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

IBM 5100 - APL Only Version on Ebay

[Wayne Smith]

There is an APL-only IBM 5100 up on Ebay.  Had known that these were
supposedly made, but have never seen one before.  Looks a bit rough,
but based on the pictures boots to the "CLEAR WS" screen.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-5100-Portable-Computer-Powers-On-/
321999141713

Re: Farewell and thanks!

[Liam Proven]

On 5 February 2016 at 23:54, Steven Hirsch  wrote:
> I've finally had my fill of the general grumpiness and bluntly worded
> interactions on this list.
>
> Over the years I have learned a lot and would like to particularly express
> my thanks to Tony Duell, Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly
> polite and very forthcoming with technical advice.

I apologise for the offence that I have given.

I am British, not American, and the tone of European converse is far
too abrupt and confrontational for an American-dominated forum. I was
rebuked by moderators twice that day alone for comments which I had
thought were reasonable and proportionate.

I was wrong. My comments were inappropriate. I regret them and
apologise for them.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Feb 5, 2016, at 21:46, Dan K <100dash...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
> sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.

I'm assuming that you are asking about replacing the pressure pad. My usual 
source for felt material is McMaster-Carr. I don't know which composition and 
hardness are best for this application, though. They carry both wool felt and 
synthetic felt.

https://www.mcmaster.com

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

emergency moderation mode RE: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2

[Jay West]

I had already turned on emergency moderation mode to try and stem the tide
of this escalating further. I had also already emailed a few people off-list
about this, which is primarily how it should be handled. Those who should
have been corrected... were. Quietly.

I'm rather tired of (a very few) people commenting "oh, this list is so much
smaller than other forums" or "there's such a low SNRatio here" or "Everyone
here is unfriendly (or things like that)". Screw all of that. I submit that
while this list may be small, it has the best content and expertise, far
better than others (I've looked). I submit that while the SNRatio gets off
track once in a great while, I've seen that happen elsewhere, and at least
as often if not more. Perhaps some should use their technical expertise to
study the function of the "delete" key. Quite frankly I don't think it
happens here all that often. Unfriendly? Perhaps there are a few that are
brisque at times. On the one hand - Guess what... that's life. In any crowd
there's always a few grumpy old men (of which I am one - especially at the
moment), and  socially well-adjusted people should learn how to deal with it
and get along. On the other hand - That doesn't mean I don't correct those
that need correcting (and I did) .. but I really don't need to hear the
whining. It seems that there are one or two people that state they don't
want to participate because of one or more of the above... yet they stay
here solely to voice that opinion. Odd.

J

RE: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?

[tony duell]

> > So, how do you deal with your 8" drives, and what do you do when
> > they don't work?
> 
> Don't get into the alignment issue without a scope and an alignment
> disk--once you loosen the stepper motors, it's a very touchy operation
> getting them back into position, even with a special (expensive)
> alignment disk.

I think it is worth pointing out that the things you need an alignment disk for
are mostly, if not wholely, 'interchangeability adjustments'. They have to be 
right for that drive to work with disks from other drives (and vice versa) but
not for it to work on its own with its own disks.

Consider the head radial alignment (what most people mean by 'head alignment).
If it is off, then the drive will not be able to read disks formatted 
elsewhere, the
head will not be on the right track. But the drive _will_ be able to format, 
write, and
read a bulk-erased disk (which, of course willl not be useable on other 
drives). So if
a drive will not do that, then it is a waste of time trying to do an 
alignement. There are
other problems. Fix those first, then see if it needs aligning.

-tony

RE: Farewell and thanks!

[tony duell]

> Over the years I have learned a lot and would like to particularly express
> my thanks to Tony Duell, Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly
> polite and very forthcoming with technical advice.

That is the first time I have been called 'polite'. You've not met me when I've
just dropped an R80 on my toe. Or had EHT flash over to my fingers... Or had
to deal with a  (note : That is not somebody who doesn't know
something and who wants to learn. I will always try to make time for that).

Just ignore the holy wars and get on with classic computing!

-tony


--

Re: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Woyciesjes" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; 

Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WASRe: AIX for IBM PS/2


> On 02/05/2016 05:40 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>>> On 5 February 2016 at 18:07, Steven Hirsch  wrote:
 On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Mazzini Alessandro 
> wrote:
>>
>> Last night I had no issues to navigate it. Didn't try today
>
>
> the URL works fine here.


 Must have been authored against IE and happens to hit a Firefox bug.  It
 renders properly in Win7 IE.  I'm seeing an increasing number of such
 problems lately.
>>
>>> What are remarkable -- and *totally* wrong -- assumption to make.
>>
>>> Works fine on Google Chrome on Mac OS X, incidentally.
>>
>>> Google Sites are dynamically generated from a high-level markup the
>>> user enters in a special editor, AIUI. The fact that it is a Google
>>> product, a company that makes its own cross-platform browser and is a
>>> rival of Microsoft, makes the contention that it's a
>>> Microsoft-specific page ludicrous.
>>
>> I just love this list.  Sorry to have troubled you with my "remarkably
>> and totally wrong assumption" - won't happen again.
>>
>>
> 
> What? You're getting cranky because you got called out as being wrong? 
> Relax buddy.

---

I think he was commenting on the unnecessarily rude and condescending tone that 
Liam and one or two others on this list like to use; was it really necessary or 
appropriate to call Steven's apparently mistaken diagnosis *totally* wrong and 
"ludicrous" (while not even bothering to proofread his own post ;-)

We may not all decide to unsubscribe but I can tell you that for some of us 
this kind of stuff really detracts from enjoyment of a list and our motivation 
to actively participate.

But I must concede that it's been a lot worse in the past; fortunately some of 
the worst offenders have also left the list over the years...

m