Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Arno Kletzander]

Paul Koning  wrote:
> Interesting. From around 1975 or so (...) A few years later (...) 

> Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's continuous rather 
> than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard of a violin); a 
> successor of that is still sold today.

This thing here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_Fingerboard ? Seems a 
bit like a digital successor to, or at least inspired by, the analogue 1930s 
"Trautonium" device (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trautonium) developed by 
Trautwein and Sala in Berlin, which used a length of resistance wire suspended 
over a metal rail. Both position (pitch) and pressure (volume)sensitive 
according to the description.

Arno, DO4NAK

Re: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials

[Eric Smith]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 7:54 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:

> MFM?


Yes.


> If nothing else, there are a few domestic
> 8466 chip pulls on eBay for $13 that maybe you could decap or push a
> bitstream into.
>

A DP8466 by itself won't help, because the ECC polynomial gets loaded into
it by another processor.

A DP8496 or DP8497 has the polynomial hardwired.

Re: Doug Englebart - mouse!

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 03:53:33PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>   Noel (who was an early Wikipediast, until the Marching Morons arrived)

I hear Venus is very nice this time of year.

mcl

Re: Double Buffer RK11-C

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Ethan Dicks

> I haven't even made an inventory of it. What would I look for to know?

Check out the module utilization chart, either in the RK11-C Engineering
Drawings, or here:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/RK11_disk_controller

(at the top of the section "RK11-C Board chart/count tables"). On a stock
RK11-C, slots 1-8, rows C-D (the bottom two rows) are empty. In the "Double
Buffer" variant, they are full of Flip Chips.

(I'll be documenting the added Flip Chips in the Double-Buffered variant
'soon'.)

Noel

Re: Double Buffer RK11-C

[Ethan Dicks]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:09 PM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> > Subject: Does anyone actually have a KT11-B?
> > Date: Fri Sep 30 19:04:47 CDT 2016
>
> > the ones shown in the images show it to be (mostly) an RK11-C.
> > ...
> > I say "mostly" because there appear to be extra cards on the right hand
> > end; whether those are some sort of upgrade to the RK11-C, or whether
> > someone just stored spare Flip Chips out there, I have no idea.
>
> So this mystery has been solved (sort of).  According to some drawings I have,
> there is apparently something called a "Double Buffer Disk Control" variant of
> the RK11-C. I looked online, but there was nothing about it there, and the
> RK11-C Engineering Drawings at BitSavers don't cover this variant. Does anyone
> out there have one of these?

I have an RK11-C that I've never attempted to power on.  I haven't
even made an inventory of it.  What would I look for to know?

-ethan

Double Buffer RK11-C

[Noel Chiappa]

> Subject: Does anyone actually have a KT11-B?
> Date: Fri Sep 30 19:04:47 CDT 2016 

> the ones shown in the images show it to be (mostly) an RK11-C.
> ... 
> I say "mostly" because there appear to be extra cards on the right hand
> end; whether those are some sort of upgrade to the RK11-C, or whether
> someone just stored spare Flip Chips out there, I have no idea.

So this mystery has been solved (sort of).  According to some drawings I have,
there is apparently something called a "Double Buffer Disk Control" variant of
the RK11-C. I looked online, but there was nothing about it there, and the
RK11-C Engineering Drawings at BitSavers don't cover this variant. Does anyone
out there have one of these?

Noel

Re: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials

[Al Kossow]

On 11/17/16 3:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:59 PM, dwight  wrote:
> 
>> Do you have working hardware?
>>
> 
> No, only a drive that 48-bit ECC.

MFM?

For a while, I was collecting ISA controllers that weren't adaptec, wd, dtc, or 
omti
for the uncommon controllers. I just bought a multibus hd/flpy board for the 
signetics
68454 on it. I may have a board with a 8466. If nothing else, there are a few 
domestic
8466 chip pulls on eBay for $13 that maybe you could decap or push a bitstream 
into.

Re: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials

[Eric Smith]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> Perhaps there's something useful here:
> http://reveng.sourceforge.net/
>

I wrote something like that back in the mid-1990s, though not as polished.
The problem is the exponential increase in search space.  Polynomials
beyond order 32 quickly become intractable on general-purpose CPUs.

Re: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials

[Chuck Guzis]

On 11/17/2016 02:59 PM, dwight wrote:
> Do you have working hardware?
> 
> A lot can be deduced by using simple data, like all 0's
> 
> and different data lengths.

Perhaps there's something useful here:

http://reveng.sourceforge.net/

I've used the code for oddball floppy CRCs.

--Chuck

Re: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials

[Eric Smith]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:59 PM, dwight  wrote:

> Do you have working hardware?
>

No, only a drive that 48-bit ECC. I don't know whether it used a National
Semiconductor based controller, but it doesn't use the Western Digital
polynomial, so NS is my first guess.  If it used the DP8466, it might have
used the NS Sooper-Sekrit 48-bit polynomial, or some other polynomial.

> A lot can be deduced by using simple data, like all 0's and different
data lengths.

If I got my hands on a DP8496 or DP8497, or a SCSI drive containing one of
them, I might be able to hack up something like you describe in order to
reverse-engineer the polynomials.

Re: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials

[dwight]

Do you have working hardware?

A lot can be deduced by using simple data, like all 0's

and different data lengths.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Eric Smith 

Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 2:33:36 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials

I'm not looking forward to trying to reverse-engineer 48-bit and 56-bit ECC
polynomials. However, they usually tried to choose polynomials with
relatively few terms, to minimize the number of XOR gates needed in the
hardware.

The common "Glover" 32-bit polynomial was:
x^32 + x^28 + x^26 + x^19 + x^17 + x^10 + x^6 + x^2 + x^0

WD's 56-bit polynomial was
x^56 + x^52 + x^50 + x^43 + x^41 + x^34 + x^30 + x^26 + x^24 + x^8 + x^0

Assuming that National's 56-bit polynomials don't use any fewer terms than
the 32-bit, nor any more terms than the WD 56-bit, there are not quite 8
billion possibilities to brute-force. x^n and x^0 are always used, so the
size of the search space is comb(55,9) + comb(55,8) + comb(55, 7). That
would take to long to brute-force search in software on a general purpose
CPU, so I think I'd have to code it for a GPU or FPGA.

There might be some other short-cuts to reducing the search space, but I
haven't yet given it a lot of thought.

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Al Kossow]

and
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102651543

On 11/17/16 2:51 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> http://www.worldcat.org/title/illiac-suite-for-string-quartet-1957/oclc/3866433
> 
> http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AComputer+music.=hot_subject#x0%253Amusic-%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Adigital%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acd%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acassette%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Alp%2529format
> 
> is an interesting search
> 
> 
> On 11/17/16 2:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> On 2016-Nov-17, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>> On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
 Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? 
>>>
>>> correct.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite
>>
>>
>> From that link, ILLIAC Suite / String Quartet No. 4 is a 1957 composition by 
>> the ILLIAC I, programmed by Lejaren A. Hiller.
>> (According to Ed Thelen's site the ILLIAC I was then retired in 1962.)
>>
>> Josh's 1967 record lists "Machine Music" by Lejaren A. Hiller but (from the 
>> presented info) it's not clear those are the same composition (the names at 
>> least are inconsistent).
>>
> 

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Al Kossow]

http://www.worldcat.org/title/illiac-suite-for-string-quartet-1957/oclc/3866433

http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AComputer+music.=hot_subject#x0%253Amusic-%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Adigital%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acd%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acassette%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Alp%2529format

is an interesting search


On 11/17/16 2:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2016-Nov-17, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>> On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? 
>>
>> correct.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite
> 
> 
> From that link, ILLIAC Suite / String Quartet No. 4 is a 1957 composition by 
> the ILLIAC I, programmed by Lejaren A. Hiller.
> (According to Ed Thelen's site the ILLIAC I was then retired in 1962.)
> 
> Josh's 1967 record lists "Machine Music" by Lejaren A. Hiller but (from the 
> presented info) it's not clear those are the same composition (the names at 
> least are inconsistent).
> 

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Nov-17, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? 
> 
> correct.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite


From that link, ILLIAC Suite / String Quartet No. 4 is a 1957 composition by 
the ILLIAC I, programmed by Lejaren A. Hiller.
(According to Ed Thelen's site the ILLIAC I was then retired in 1962.)

Josh's 1967 record lists "Machine Music" by Lejaren A. Hiller but (from the 
presented info) it's not clear those are the same composition (the names at 
least are inconsistent).

Re: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials

[Eric Smith]

I'm not looking forward to trying to reverse-engineer 48-bit and 56-bit ECC
polynomials. However, they usually tried to choose polynomials with
relatively few terms, to minimize the number of XOR gates needed in the
hardware.

The common "Glover" 32-bit polynomial was:
x^32 + x^28 + x^26 + x^19 + x^17 + x^10 + x^6 + x^2 + x^0

WD's 56-bit polynomial was
x^56 + x^52 + x^50 + x^43 + x^41 + x^34 + x^30 + x^26 + x^24 + x^8 + x^0

Assuming that National's 56-bit polynomials don't use any fewer terms than
the 32-bit, nor any more terms than the WD 56-bit, there are not quite 8
billion possibilities to brute-force. x^n and x^0 are always used, so the
size of the search space is comb(55,9) + comb(55,8) + comb(55, 7). That
would take to long to brute-force search in software on a general purpose
CPU, so I think I'd have to code it for a GPU or FPGA.

There might be some other short-cuts to reducing the search space, but I
haven't yet given it a lot of thought.

Re: Fwd: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19

[Al Kossow]

Fred, could you make these files readable, please

On 11/15/16 11:44 AM, Fred Jan Kraan wrote:
> 
> Forgot the URL: http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/NCD/
> 
>  Forwarded Message 
> Subject: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19
> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:42:16 +0100
> From: Fred Jan Kraan 
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Some 20 years ago I briefly had some NCD16's and found some of the tarred 
> images and software from those days. Hopefully
> it survived the various media transfers.
> 
> 
> Fred Jan

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Chuck Guzis]

I remember that CDC used to put on a show for Navy brass back in the 60s
using, tape drives and printers for the rendition of "Anchors Aweigh".
ISTR that it was a 1604 used for this, but may also have been a 3800.
The memory dulls with time.

I believe there was also a similar rendition of "The Stars and Stripes
Forever".  Very impressive to watch and hear.

Do any recordings exist of these?

--Chuck

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Al Kossow]

On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? 

correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:04 PM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:
> 
> On 2016-Nov-17, at 1:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> 
>> I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or
>> so):
>> https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054.
>> If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording.
> 
> Somethings' amiss there, 1967 is way too early for ILLIAC IV.
> 
> ILLIAC IV wasn't actually located at U of I.
> According to refs it was installed at NASA Ames (Calif) in 1971-2.

Maybe an earlier ILLIAC?  I vaguely remember hearing that ILLIAC I had been 
used to make music.

ILLIAC IV was designed at U of I and was originally intended to be located 
there; they even built a high-security building for it (CAC).  But in the end 
DoD didn't like all those unruly students so they installed at at Ames instead. 
 The building ended up being used for an ARPAnet node instead.

paul

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Nov-17, at 1:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

> I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or
> so):
> https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054.
> If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording.

Somethings' amiss there, 1967 is way too early for ILLIAC IV.

ILLIAC IV wasn't actually located at U of I.
According to refs it was installed at NASA Ames (Calif) in 1971-2.


> It's somewhat interesting but the electronic parts of it are sometimes hard
> to discern :). Looks like someone's digitized it here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ueVm8WvRHI.

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:

>
> I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or
> so):
> https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-
> The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054.
> If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording.
>
> It's somewhat interesting but the electronic parts of it are sometimes hard
> to discern :). Looks like someone's digitized it here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ueVm8WvRHI.
>

Well, uh...that's certainly a little too avant-garde for my tastes, hah!
But that definitely fits the bill otherwise.

>
> I digitized an 45 of music generated by an Orchestra-80 (TRS-80 4-channel
> synth), it's called "Classical Mosquito!" -- you can grab it from here:
> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mosquito/
>
> As an aside, I've been (slowly) working on emulating Ted Kaehler's organ
> keyboard / FM synth for the Xerox Alto (c. 1974) in ContrAlto.  I have just
> enough technical information and code listings to make it possible, but
> there's just enough information missing to make it difficult...


That'll be very nice to see once you get that going!

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:

>
> This is the piece I mentioned, I believe.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?
> v=60oxsizDxaQ


That's quite eerie sounding!

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Josh Dersch]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen  wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Paul Koning 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Interesting.  From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the
> > music synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of
> > Illinois by Sherwin Gooch.  The hardware is described in great detail
> > (including full schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675.  The software
> includes
> > a music code compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced
> > but different in details.  I don't know if one borred from the other or
> if
> > they are independent inventions.  (Sherwin might remember.)
> >
> > A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device,
> > controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals.  It had a similar
> music
> > code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for
> > music input with real time display of the score, as well as score
> > printing.  Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's
> > continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard
> > of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today.
> >
>
> I'd be very interested in any sound samples, if anyone has any...I guess
> that's perhaps unlikely. And on that note (heh), are there any other
> computer music albums out there? I know of the First Philadelphia Computer
> Music Festival, the two Unplayed by Human Hands, and it looks like the
> University of Melbourne had an electronic music album too. There's a 45
> entitled Computer Composites that featured several IBM systems,
>
> I'm finding it rather difficult to find LPs that are assuredly produced by
> a digital computer versus by other electronic means, like early
> synthesizers, etc.
>

I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or
so):
https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054.
If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording.

It's somewhat interesting but the electronic parts of it are sometimes hard
to discern :). Looks like someone's digitized it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ueVm8WvRHI.

I digitized an 45 of music generated by an Orchestra-80 (TRS-80 4-channel
synth), it's called "Classical Mosquito!" -- you can grab it from here:
http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mosquito/

As an aside, I've been (slowly) working on emulating Ted Kaehler's organ
keyboard / FM synth for the Xerox Alto (c. 1974) in ContrAlto.  I have just
enough technical information and code listings to make it possible, but
there's just enough information missing to make it difficult...

- Josh



>
> Thanks, Al, for the scan upload! I've enjoyed reading that.
>
> Kyle
>

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Cory Heisterkamp]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:

>
>
> On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> > are there any other
> > computer music albums out there?
>
> yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label
>
>
>
Don't forget "Music From Mathematics" to get your IBM 7090 fix. -C

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 4:02 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
>>> are there any other
>>> computer music albums out there?
>> 
>> yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label
> 
> In college I once played some pieces from a recording in the back of a 
> computer music textbook.  One of them was an "eight tone canon" (in an 8-tone 
> scale, i.e., 2^(1/8) ratio between consecutive notes).
> 
> I don't remember the title, unfortunately.

This is the piece I mentioned, I believe.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60oxsizDxaQ

paul

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Cory Heisterkamp  wrote:

>
> Don't forget "Music From Mathematics" to get your IBM 7090 fix. -C
>

Good catch! I'll see if I can find a copy.

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
>> are there any other
>> computer music albums out there?
> 
> yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label

In college I once played some pieces from a recording in the back of a computer 
music textbook.  One of them was an "eight tone canon" (in an 8-tone scale, 
i.e., 2^(1/8) ratio between consecutive notes).

I don't remember the title, unfortunately.

paul

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>
>
> On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> > are there any other
> > computer music albums out there?
>
> yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label
>

Cool, thanks! I've heard of Nonesuch before, probably from Rifkin's Scott
Joplin album. Can you recommend any particular computer music titles? I'm
trying to find ones specifically composed for computers, not a human
playing a synthesizer.

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Al Kossow]

On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> are there any other
> computer music albums out there?

yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Kyle Owen  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Paul Koning 
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Interesting.  From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the
>> music synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of
>> Illinois by Sherwin Gooch.  The hardware is described in great detail
>> (including full schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675.  The software includes
>> a music code compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced
>> but different in details.  I don't know if one borred from the other or if
>> they are independent inventions.  (Sherwin might remember.)
>> 
>> A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device,
>> controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals.  It had a similar music
>> code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for
>> music input with real time display of the score, as well as score
>> printing.  Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's
>> continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard
>> of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today.
>> 
> 
> I'd be very interested in any sound samples, if anyone has any...I guess
> that's perhaps unlikely. 

Sound samples of the PLATO devices?  I have somewhere an audio file made from a 
tape recording of the earlier one (the GSW, 4 channel square wave).  And it's 
supported in the PLATO terminal emulator that talks to the Cyber1.org PLATO 
system.  That almost certainly doesn't exactly reproduce the wave form; I 
haven't attempted to simulate the impulse response of the output circuit though 
I could certainly give that a try.

As for the later device, I don't have any recordings but they might exist.  
Sherwin Gooch would be the most likely source, along with Lippold Haken.

paul

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Paul Koning 
wrote:

>
> Interesting.  From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the
> music synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of
> Illinois by Sherwin Gooch.  The hardware is described in great detail
> (including full schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675.  The software includes
> a music code compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced
> but different in details.  I don't know if one borred from the other or if
> they are independent inventions.  (Sherwin might remember.)
>
> A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device,
> controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals.  It had a similar music
> code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for
> music input with real time display of the score, as well as score
> printing.  Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's
> continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard
> of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today.
>

I'd be very interested in any sound samples, if anyone has any...I guess
that's perhaps unlikely. And on that note (heh), are there any other
computer music albums out there? I know of the First Philadelphia Computer
Music Festival, the two Unplayed by Human Hands, and it looks like the
University of Melbourne had an electronic music album too. There's a 45
entitled Computer Composites that featured several IBM systems,

I'm finding it rather difficult to find LPs that are assuredly produced by
a digital computer versus by other electronic means, like early
synthesizers, etc.

Thanks, Al, for the scan upload! I've enjoyed reading that.

Kyle

Re: Doug Englebart - mouse!

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 2:20 PM, Rich Alderson  wrote:
> 
> ...
> I think arguing "priority" is a pointless exercise.  In the real world, the
> mouse came to the fore with the Xerox Alto, where its use was inspired by
> Engelbart, not Telefunken, and it spread to Lisp Machines, Lisa and Macintosh
> computers, and beyond, from there.

That's a good point for history of inventions generally.  Take printing; it was 
arguably invented in China first, but independently in Germany later.  The 
later one is the one that took hold world-wide.  For that matter, writing; 
invented independently in at least three if not four places, but out of those 
only two produced offspring that spread and flourished.

paul

RE: Doug Englebart - mouse!

[Rich Alderson]

From: jos
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 9:38 AM

> On 17.11.2016 17:18, Murray McCullough wrote:

>> Today in the age of pointer-graphics, ie., using a mouse, is a very
>> important day: Nov. 17, 1970, Doug Engelbart, of SRI, Menlo Park, CA,
>> invented the mouse or granted a patent for "X-Yposition indictator for
>> a grahics display." BTW he doesn't know who coined the word 'mouse'.

> Of course Telefunken had already a mouse, a.k.a. Rollkugel, in 1968.

Of course, the so-called Mother of All Demos was presented at FJCC on
9 December 1968, and included the mouse and the chord keyboard.  Unlike the
Telefunken mouse, the Engelbart mouse was not an inverted trackball.

I think arguing "priority" is a pointless exercise.  In the real world, the
mouse came to the fore with the Xerox Alto, where its use was inspired by
Engelbart, not Telefunken, and it spread to Lisp Machines, Lisa and Macintosh
computers, and beyond, from there.

Rich


Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134

Cell: (206) 465-2916
Desk: (206) 342-2239

http://www.LivingComputers.org/

Re: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials

[Ed Spittles]

Signal boosting (For me, Eric's post landed in the naughty corner)

On 16 November 2016 at 00:19, Eric Smith  wrote:

> Has anyone determined what 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials are used by
> the National Semiconductor hard disk controllers?  The DP8496/97 allows
> choice of hard-wired 16-bit CRC, or 32-bit, 48-bit, or 56-bit ECC.  The
> 32-bit ECC is a common polynomial known as the Glover polynomial, and it's
> the same one used by WD and others.  However, National was apparently
> extremely proud of the 48-bit and 56-bit polynomials they chose, and the
> data sheets say that they require a license agreement with National.
>
> The more common DP8466 supports 32-bit 48-bit, but allows the user to
> configure the polynomial. The data sheet states that National's 48-bit
> polynomial is available under license.
>
> WD wasn't as proud of their 56-bit polynomial; it's given in the WD42C22
> data sheet. It doesn't seem to match National Semicondutor's 56-bit
> polynomial.
>

Re: HP 6954A Multiprogrammer

[Pete Lancashire]

I took the thing apart last night. There is no room for an internal disk
drive.

I'll take photo's and post them by the weekend.

Overall the computer side is mostly a typical 9000/200/300 chassis.

The CPU is a unmodified early generation 310 w/1MB+Monochrome.

-pete

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:47 PM, Glen Slick  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Pete Lancashire
>  wrote:
> > I just picked one of these up the 1991 catalog describes
> >
> > HP 6954A Features
> >
> > A Rugged Rack-mountable Test System in a Single Unit Built-in
> > HP 9000 Series 310 or Series 332 Computer. and 20 Megabyte
> > Hard Disc Includes BASIC and HP 14753A CAT Programming
> > Package HP-IB, HP-HIL, RS-232, Audio and Video Interfaces 
> >
> > Anyone have a manual on this guy ?
> >
> > So far I can't find where the hard drive goes, was it internal or
> > external via GPIB ?
> >
> > BTW mine is older, the CPU is a 310 (98561-66515)
> >
> > -pete
>
> http://www.hpmuseum.net/ has a scan of the 06954-90003 Getting Started
> Guide. From a very quick browse it points out the disc controller
> board, but I didn't see a figure that shows the actual drive.
>
> What you probably want is a copy of the 06954-90001 Service Manual if
> that is available anywhere.
>
>

DNIX and ABCenix install media disk images.

[Mattis Lind]

A guy in Sweden made the effort to image the install media for DNIX 5.3 and
5.12 as well as ABCenix 5.12.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/dnix-imd.tar.bz2
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/ABCnix.tar.bz2


These are for computers made by DIAB (later part of Bull) DS90 and Luxor
ABC1600 (branded Luxor but developed by DIAB).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataindustrier_AB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_1600

They all were 68k based. The early DS90 had 68010 + 68451 MMU. The ABC1600
had 68008 and some homebuilt MMU. The ABC1600 is quite a nice machine with
768x1024 b/w portrait screen that can be twisted into landscape. It has a
simple windowing system. Actually half of the hardware that make up the
system is the graphics board. Unfortunately the 68008 makes it quite weak.

I hope that the imaged disk can end up in a safer place than my dropbox,
for example Bitsavers...

Thanks Jonas Malm for doing the disk images (I am just the messanger)!

/Mattis

Re: Doug Englebart - mouse!

[Al Kossow]

On 11/17/16 10:26 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> Who has some time to go clean up Wikipedia?
> 

No one

Also, the Englebart mouse is two potentiometers mounted at a right angle
so it only worked in a confined space.

I need to dig my vaccuum-formed case SRI mouse and keyset out and take pictures 
of them.

Re: Doug Englebart - mouse!

[Christian Corti]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2016, jos wrote:

On 17.11.2016 17:18, Murray McCullough wrote:

Today in the age of pointer-graphics, ie., using a mouse, is a very
important day: Nov. 17, 1970, Doug Engelbart, of SRI, Menlo Park, CA,
invented the mouse or granted a patent for "X-Yposition indictator for
a grahics display." BTW he doesn't know who coined the word 'mouse'.



Of course Telefunken had already a mouse, a.k.a. Rollkugel, in 1968.


:-D

BTW there will be a talk here with Rainer Mallebrein on Dec. 5, topic 
"50 years computers with mouse". He also was a guest of our museum a few 
years ago, and he gave us a deflection unit of the SIG 100 (the display 
used with the RKS 100-86).


Christian

Re: Doug Englebart - mouse!

[jos]

On 17.11.2016 17:18, Murray McCullough wrote:

Today in the age of pointer-graphics, ie., using a mouse, is a very
important day: Nov. 17, 1970, Doug Engelbart, of SRI, Menlo Park, CA,
invented the mouse or granted a patent for "X-Yposition indictator for
a grahics display." BTW he doesn't know who coined the word 'mouse'.

Happy computing!

Murray  :)


Of course Telefunken had already a mouse, a.k.a. Rollkugel, in 1968.

Jos

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Kyle Owen  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I wish...but there may be an alternative.  There is a 1970 book called "The
>> Computer and Music" containing 21 articles and documents on the subject.
>> Edited by Harry B. Lincoln.  It is very possible that the Datamation
>> article drew content from this book and you might find the book for sale on
>> online..
> 
> 
> Thanks Bill. Just ordered a copy from Amazon.
> 
> I just picked up "Unplayed by Human Hands" (the first album, from 1975) and
> wanted to learn a little more about how it was done. I do know it was a
> PDP-8 and Model 33 ASR connected to a pipe organ, and there are bits and
> pieces referencing it online.
> 
> For instance, I found this project: https://github.com/jawknee/upbhh
> 
> But, alas...there doesn't seem to be any snippets of actual code from the
> album there.
> 
> The code is described in some detail here too:
> http://charlesames.net/glossary/linear-music-code.html
> 
> Again, no actual code. Bummer.

Interesting.  From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the music 
synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of Illinois by 
Sherwin Gooch.  The hardware is described in great detail (including full 
schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675.  The software includes a music code 
compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced but different in 
details.  I don't know if one borred from the other or if they are independent 
inventions.  (Sherwin might remember.)

A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device, 
controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals.  It had a similar music 
code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for music 
input with real time display of the score, as well as score printing.  Not long 
after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's continuous rather than discrete 
(think of a keyboard like the fingerboard of a violin); a successor of that is 
still sold today.

paul

Doug Englebart - mouse!

[Murray McCullough]

Today in the age of pointer-graphics, ie., using a mouse, is a very
important day: Nov. 17, 1970, Doug Engelbart, of SRI, Menlo Park, CA,
invented the mouse or granted a patent for "X-Yposition indictator for
a grahics display." BTW he doesn't know who coined the word 'mouse'.

Happy computing!

Murray  :)

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:

>
> https://archive.org/stream/kilobaudmagazine-1978-02/
>
> I think there is a paper in the DECUS proceedings as well
>
>
> You might be interested in knowing Prentiss is still around and the
> original tapes
> along with several songs that weren't on the album were digitized by a
> friend of
> mine about five years ago.
>
> I have that issue scanned, I'll put it up under pdp8/music later today
>

Thank you, Al! I did not know about the Kilobaud article; that's exactly
along the lines of what I was hoping to find!

Glad to hear the tapes have been saved. I have a 1965 Hammond organ and a
1915 player piano that I'd love to join together via a (completely
reversible) computer interface. Perhaps a project for another decade, but
we'll see.

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[william degnan]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Kyle Owen  wrote:

> Does anyone have a scanned (or hard) copy of this? I'm trying to locate
> one, without much success. I'm mostly interested in the article entitled
> "Capture and Display of Keyboard Music".
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kyle
>

I wish...but there may be an alternative.  There is a 1970 book called "The
Computer and Music" containing 21 articles and documents on the subject.
Edited by Harry B. Lincoln.  It is very possible that the Datamation
article drew content from this book and you might find the book for sale on
online..

Mr Degnan

Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

Does anyone have a scanned (or hard) copy of this? I'm trying to locate
one, without much success. I'm mostly interested in the article entitled
"Capture and Display of Keyboard Music".

Thanks!

Kyle

Re: TI 990/189 debugging

[Eric Smith]

9.3V might actually work fine for a TMS9980, even though it's below spec.
It's not going to damage the part, so it may be worth a try before
modifying the board for 12V to the CPU socket.

In NMOS digital parts that predate depletion loads, Vdd needs to be
significantly higher than the most positive logic level in order to bias
the enhancement nFET used for the loads (pull-ups).  The Vdd voltage
doesn't have to have a precise value, but it needs to be somewhat more than
the FET gate threshold above the most positive logic level, and below the
breakdown voltage.  The higher the Vdd voltage (below breakdown), the
faster the pullup will operate, so running below spec will reduce the
maximum speed at which the part will operate. This is also dependent on
temperature.  The part is spec'd for operation over a fairly wide
temperature range (even if only "commercial" rated). Since the logic high
level is no more than 5.0V, and generally somewhat less, a Vdd of 9.3V is
probably more than adequate at room temperature, but may fail at
temperature extremes.

The MP9529 is a "selected" TMS9980.  In most contexts, a "selected" IC is
one that has been tested and found to meet specifications more stringent
than the normal specifications.  However, in this case I think the MP9529
might actually be "selected" in the sense of being tested to *lower*
specifications than a standard TMS9980. It's unclear why they would want to
use the lower Vdd, except possibly to reduce power consumption.

With the introduction of depletion loads in later NMOS ICs, generally
starting around 1976, and becoming ubiquitous by 1980, the requirement for
a supply above +5V was eliminated. Similarly, by adding an on-chip
substrate bias generator, the need for an externally supplied substrate
bias voltage (Vbb, typically -5V) was removed.

Re: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote:

> That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero.

From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V.


> Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which ones
> might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics.

Looking at:
7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf
from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be truncated.
The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of course 
the power supply schematic is missing.
(Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd on the 
hpmuseum pages.)

There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30), which 
shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control loop) 
secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the likely 
problem region. There will be more components involved than shown there, but 
the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter cap and possibly 
a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12, or even a zener 
regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry between there 
and the actual -12 output of the supply.

- identify the -12V componentry in the power supply.
- if there is a 3-terminal -12V regulator check for input to the reg vs 
output.
- confirm that it's not the load side of the -12 causing the problem.
- pic(s) of the power supply board might help us identify the area or 
get a better idea of what we're dealing with.