Re: Banner Panels
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:04:26AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > I'll provide examples of some of these. Others can be found online. Here are three panels I could easily get to: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/front_paneler/headers/ /P
Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels
On 31/12/2016 04:14, william degnan wrote: You can add the industrial/11 blue and red to your color page, not an exact match to any that you have on your site, but my photos are not color consistent, you'd have to see or scan. From my eye (and I am a web designer who has to match colors for living) my actual industrial/11 is red/white/blue as in the USA flag colors, pretty down the middle primary colors, despite what my photos show. The banner is blue/red but it's a little faded, the paddles are more "as-was", here is the most accurate photo, or you can search youtube for industrial/11 to see it. http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40_industrial11/frontpanel/industrial11_cover-removed.jpg Bill On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: Rod, On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: Hi Guys I have had a quick word with the girls down at the silk screen shop. A couple of years ago I tried to translate the DEC color standards to RGB based on the colors in the standards on bitsavers. Here is what I came up with: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ I think I posted this already. How have you been doing your color matching? Have you published a color list for the panels you have made? I am thinking about color matching for switch handles for example that are in the same colors. Some enduring standard translation for the colors would be great to have available in the future. I never imagined how slippery color was until I tried to do the color matching from the DEC standards. I had to meet Munsell, Ostwald and the CHM (Color Harmony Manual, not the Computer History Museum), before I was done. And Pantone seems to be the Microsoft of color. -chuck Hi First of all it depends what color you are trying to get to. 1. As it left the factory. 2. As it appears to-day. 3. What the spec (if they bothered with it) said. How do I do it on front panels? Well I don't. I'm partly color blind which does not matter as all my drawings are in black and white for color separations. I have two nice young ladies their mid twenties with exceptional vison and are certified colorists. They also have access via their ink supplier to a spectropotometer if needed. I'm waiting on a quote for the blank aluminium panels Rod (Panelman) Smallwood
RE: Banner Panels
> Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 14:10:05 +0100 > From: Pontus Pihlgren > > (re http://www.kcg.ac.jp/museum/computer/images/mini_computers/dec/vax11_780.jpg ) > > Yes, but it is the taller racks. I had only seen the metal header on > the PDP-12 and our 8/I with earlier lower racks. > > /P > My 1972 pdp-8/e has a metal header on an H960 tall cabinet. This was definitely original (I ordered and commissioned the machine back then). (Same one as the 8/I in the photograph - no model designation).
Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels
In a message dated 12/30/2016 10:49:07 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, c...@chdickman.com writes: On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 12:21 AM, wrote: > I wonder if there is a PANTONE color chat assignment that DEC > ever listed? That would allow you to nail it dead on. Of course it would, but the DEC STD 092 available is not specified in PANTONE, If a later version of the standard used PANTONE then it would be done because PANTONE is the defacto reference today. When did PANTONE become a standard? I saw the following... but that may have been a date for ink maybe not paint? Pantone, as it is today, was founded in 1962, when the company—at the time a small business which manufactured colour cards for cosmetics companies— was bought by Lawrence Herbert, who had been an employee since 1956. He immediately changed its direction, developing the first colour matching system in 1963. Herbert remains the CEO, Chairman, and President of the company. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)
Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels
On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 12:21 AM, wrote: > I wonder if there is a PANTONE color chat assignment that DEC > ever listed? That would allow you to nail it dead on. Of course it would, but the DEC STD 092 available is not specified in PANTONE, If a later version of the standard used PANTONE then it would be done because PANTONE is the defacto reference today.
Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels
(with correction) I wonder if there is a PANTONE color chart assignment that DEC ever listed? That would allow you to nail it dead on. Ed# _www.SMECC.org_ (_http://www.SMECC.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) ) In a message dated 12/30/2016 10:21:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, couryho...@aol.com writes: In a message dated 12/30/2016 9:31:07 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, c...@chdickman.com writes: On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:14 PM, william degnan wrote: > You can add the industrial/11 blue and red to your color page That's another problem I think, there isn't any documentation to say what colors a particular scheme used. I think the PDP8/e is amber and terra cotta, but that isn't documented as far as I know. Your Industrial-11 was probably in Bicentennial colors. It sure looks like American Red, White and Blue to me. -chuck I wonder if there is a PANTONE color chat assignment that DEC ever listed? That would allow you to nail it dead on. Ed# _www.SMECC.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/)
Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels
In a message dated 12/30/2016 9:31:07 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, c...@chdickman.com writes: On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:14 PM, william degnan wrote: > You can add the industrial/11 blue and red to your color page That's another problem I think, there isn't any documentation to say what colors a particular scheme used. I think the PDP8/e is amber and terra cotta, but that isn't documented as far as I know. Your Industrial-11 was probably in Bicentennial colors. It sure looks like American Red, White and Blue to me. -chuck I wonder if there is a PANTONE color chat assignment that DEC ever listed? That would allow you to nail it dead on. Ed# _www.SMECC.org_ (http://www.SMECC.org)
Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:14 PM, william degnan wrote: > You can add the industrial/11 blue and red to your color page That's another problem I think, there isn't any documentation to say what colors a particular scheme used. I think the PDP8/e is amber and terra cotta, but that isn't documented as far as I know. Your Industrial-11 was probably in Bicentennial colors. It sure looks like American Red, White and Blue to me. -chuck
Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels
You can add the industrial/11 blue and red to your color page, not an exact match to any that you have on your site, but my photos are not color consistent, you'd have to see or scan. From my eye (and I am a web designer who has to match colors for living) my actual industrial/11 is red/white/blue as in the USA flag colors, pretty down the middle primary colors, despite what my photos show. The banner is blue/red but it's a little faded, the paddles are more "as-was", here is the most accurate photo, or you can search youtube for industrial/11 to see it. http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40_industrial11/frontpanel/industrial11_cover-removed.jpg Bill On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > Rod, > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > > Hi Guys > > > > I have had a quick word with the girls down at the silk > screen > > shop. > > A couple of years ago I tried to translate the DEC color standards to > RGB based on the colors in the standards on bitsavers. Here is what I > came up with: > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ > > I think I posted this already. > > How have you been doing your color matching? Have you published a > color list for the panels you have made? I am thinking about color > matching for switch handles for example that are in the same colors. > Some enduring standard translation for the colors would be great to > have available in the future. > > I never imagined how slippery color was until I tried to do the color > matching from the DEC standards. I had to meet Munsell, Ostwald and > the CHM (Color Harmony Manual, not the Computer History Museum), > before I was done. And Pantone seems to be the Microsoft of color. > > -chuck >
Re: OS/8 FORTRAN IV
I tied DEV SEL L for my homebrew LPT to +5 and now F4 runs. I am curious if the EAE is used with F4. The Language Manual says it is, but it is only mentioned in one place. There is nothing else to select using it or not using it. I looked at the sources for various parts of F4 and can't see that any of the EAE instructions are used in it although I also don't know that I have source for the floating point library itself. -chuck
DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels
Rod, On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi Guys > > I have had a quick word with the girls down at the silk screen > shop. A couple of years ago I tried to translate the DEC color standards to RGB based on the colors in the standards on bitsavers. Here is what I came up with: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ I think I posted this already. How have you been doing your color matching? Have you published a color list for the panels you have made? I am thinking about color matching for switch handles for example that are in the same colors. Some enduring standard translation for the colors would be great to have available in the future. I never imagined how slippery color was until I tried to do the color matching from the DEC standards. I had to meet Munsell, Ostwald and the CHM (Color Harmony Manual, not the Computer History Museum), before I was done. And Pantone seems to be the Microsoft of color. -chuck
Re: TI 990/189 debugging
Just to bring some closure to this old thread, I finally picked up a working TMS9980 cpu chip (after getting one faulty one off of eBay -- it was even more dead than the one it was replacing). And it appears to work properly in the 990/189 board, with the 9.3V supplied on the CPU socket. Thanks, Josh On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:05 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > 9.3V might actually work fine for a TMS9980, even though it's below spec. > It's not going to damage the part, so it may be worth a try before > modifying the board for 12V to the CPU socket. > > In NMOS digital parts that predate depletion loads, Vdd needs to be > significantly higher than the most positive logic level in order to bias > the enhancement nFET used for the loads (pull-ups). The Vdd voltage > doesn't have to have a precise value, but it needs to be somewhat more than > the FET gate threshold above the most positive logic level, and below the > breakdown voltage. The higher the Vdd voltage (below breakdown), the > faster the pullup will operate, so running below spec will reduce the > maximum speed at which the part will operate. This is also dependent on > temperature. The part is spec'd for operation over a fairly wide > temperature range (even if only "commercial" rated). Since the logic high > level is no more than 5.0V, and generally somewhat less, a Vdd of 9.3V is > probably more than adequate at room temperature, but may fail at > temperature extremes. > > The MP9529 is a "selected" TMS9980. In most contexts, a "selected" IC is > one that has been tested and found to meet specifications more stringent > than the normal specifications. However, in this case I think the MP9529 > might actually be "selected" in the sense of being tested to *lower* > specifications than a standard TMS9980. It's unclear why they would want to > use the lower Vdd, except possibly to reduce power consumption. > > With the introduction of depletion loads in later NMOS ICs, generally > starting around 1976, and becoming ubiquitous by 1980, the requirement for > a supply above +5V was eliminated. Similarly, by adding an on-chip > substrate bias generator, the need for an externally supplied substrate > bias voltage (Vbb, typically -5V) was removed. >
Re: Transporting an LGP-30
On 30/12/16 17:49, Paul Koning wrote: The Dutch computer ARMAC had a nice optimization, a track buffer. Under software control a given track would be copied to that buffer (in some sort of RAM -- core?) and then references to those addresses would be satisfied from the buffer. You could think of that as a very early cache. That was the machine on which Dijkstra first implemented the spanning tree algorithm (as a demo program for an exhibition). Spanning tree? Really? Surely you mean Shortest Path First? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarl...@iee.org
G-15 / was: Re: Transporting an LGP-30
Is your drum in good condition? Ours was full of dust, and 3 tracks had been ground down to the brass due to dust packing under the heads. We haven't inspected it that closely.
Re: Z-80 code question about a loop that depends on the contents of the refresh register
On Wed, 14 Dec 2016, Tony Duell wrote: > What I need to do is find exactly how the flags are set by the > LD A,R It's been long since I did anything with the Z80, but offhand all flags are set as with ALU operations according to the value loaded into the accumulator (same with LD A,I, but not the reverse loads IIRC). These are the only Z80 LD instructions that set the flags. If help is still needed with interpreting this piece of code I can reach out for documentation and refresh old memory. BTW, as a side effect of incomplete instruction decoding and the lack of trapping on unimplemented operations the Z80 had a number of undocumented operations available, which however were reliable across different silicon manufactured and eventually got figured out and documented. Some software relied on correct execution of these operations and may require an accurate emulator implementation to run correctly. XZX is one emulator I know of that has claimed support for all these operations in its core processor support (I and R registers should also be correctly handled); otherwise emulating Sinclair ZX Spectrum class systems and running as an X11 client on various *nix systems. I haven't used it for years now though and have no idea whether it has been maintained beyond 1997 which is when the version I still have around has been released. Maciej
Re: Transporting an LGP-30
On 12/30/2016 09:49 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > I have an old set of lecture notes I'm translating, for a course on > computer design from 1948, which discusses various memory types. Not > core memory, that came later. But it mentions drums, and theorizes > that those might be operated at 60,000 rpm... I'm not sure where > that optimism came from. Perhaps because the author was a > mathematician rather than a mechanical engineer? CDC ADL back in the late 1960s was testing a prototype high-speed drum for the STAR--100K RPM in vacuo, ISTR. Probably a Jim Thornton-inspired scheme. I do recall Neil Lincoln mentioning that the observation window became coated with drum material in the first few minutes. The idea was a very fast paging store. That and the SCROLL tape/disk device are two that come to mind. Anent the LGP30--some drums were equipped with several heads spaced around the same track to cut down on latency. Logic need not be vacuum-tube or transistor--I recall the Univac Solid State machines that used magnetic core as well as the Parametrons of NEC. Drum machines persisted a bit longer than one would expect; e.g., the Litton 1601 was produced in the early 70s. A photo: http://techno-science.ca/en/collection-research/collection-item.php?id=1982.0057.001 Technical reference manual: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/litton/Litton1600_TechnicalRefMan.pdf Bit serial architecture, of course. An odd bird, if there ever was one. --Chuck
Re: Transporting an LGP-30
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 01:02:50AM -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote: Yes. When museum visitors ask, "What is its clock speed?," I reply, "Something like a few hundred RPM." :) would 1 RPM be 60 cycles per second?
Re: Transporting an LGP-30
> On Dec 30, 2016, at 12:51 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 12/29/2016 10:04 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> ... > Ouch! That means it runs one instruction per revolution of the drum? that > would slow it to something like 30 IPS! >> ... >> Oh, I think a good case can be made. People often cite the LINC as the first, >> but the G-15 and LGP-30 were similar in cost and intent, albeit a generation >> (at least) older. >> > SEVERAL generations older. Core memory was a HUGE advance. Rather more > complicated than a drum, but got rid of the horrid latency with a drum. Even > if you optimized the executable code, machines like the G-15 had all sorts of > insane trickery to make data access faster. There were instructions that > would copy a whole long line of data to the short lines so that these could > be accessed every 4 word times, instead of having to wait a full drum > revolution for the next word. The Dutch computer ARMAC had a nice optimization, a track buffer. Under software control a given track would be copied to that buffer (in some sort of RAM -- core?) and then references to those addresses would be satisfied from the buffer. You could think of that as a very early cache. That was the machine on which Dijkstra first implemented the spanning tree algorithm (as a demo program for an exhibition). For first generation machines, you could distinguish between vacuum tube ones, and the earlier relay machines. I have an old set of lecture notes I'm translating, for a course on computer design from 1948, which discusses various memory types. Not core memory, that came later. But it mentions drums, and theorizes that those might be operated at 60,000 rpm... I'm not sure where that optimism came from. Perhaps because the author was a mathematician rather than a mechanical engineer? paul
Re: Transporting an LGP-30
On 12/30/2016 01:09 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: (as you might imagine, most coding was done in machine language -- the compilers trying to deal with this was a nightmare. And waay slow.) Yes, supposedly the Algol compiler took two days to run on a modest program. Jon
Re: Transporting an LGP-30
On 12/29/2016 11:37 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: I know it's getting off-topic, but anyone who wants to see a G-15 is welcome to come visit the Vintage Computer Federation museum in New Jersey. There were 500 units made. The one here is believed to be number three. :) We hope to restore it one of these days. Is your drum in good condition? Ours was full of dust, and 3 tracks had been ground down to the brass due to dust packing under the heads. Jon
Re: Transporting an LGP-30
> From: Jon Elson > That means it runs one instruction per revolution of the drum? I don't think it's quite that bad; ISTR something in the manual (BitSavers has a good selection of them, it was in the Programming Manual, which is quite interesting to look at) about how 'logical' sequential words were actually interleaved by some factor into physical locations around the drum (probably to prevent just this problem). IIRC, the manual talks about how it's intended as a replacement for a mechanical calculator (one of the hairy semi-programmable ones, I presume), so their performance target wasn't that steep. Noel
Re: Banner Panels
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 08:54:35PM +1000, ste...@malikoff.com wrote: > Pontus said: > > 2. Rack type, the earlier shorter racks had metal headers without > >rounded corners (see PDP-8/i). Lowboy racks have a slanted header > >with deeper frame. > > > > 3. Intended market. Lab systems was green, industrial was blue/red. (The > >PDP-12 was available in orange, blue and green) > > Here's a photo of an interesting example of (I presume) #2 for a > PDP-15 in a japanese computer museum. Yes, but it is the taller racks. I had only seen the metal header on the PDP-12 and our 8/I with earlier lower racks. Very nice picture though. /P
Re: Banner Panels
Pontus said: > 2. Rack type, the earlier shorter racks had metal headers without >rounded corners (see PDP-8/i). Lowboy racks have a slanted header >with deeper frame. > > 3. Intended market. Lab systems was green, industrial was blue/red. (The >PDP-12 was available in orange, blue and green) Here's a photo of an interesting example of (I presume) #2 for a PDP-15 in a japanese computer museum. Also note the unusual PDP-11/05 masthead arranged as 'PDP11-05' with a unichannel 15, and also one of those nice blinkenlights panels Noel has documented: http://www.kcg.ac.jp/museum/computer/images/mini_computers/dec/vax11_780.jpg Steve.
Re: Banner Panels
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 07:40:26AM +, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > The pictures are for reference. I redraw all panels to get the > separations for silk screening. > Rod Ok, I'll try to take som pictures tonight. Also, I'd like to elaborate regarding rack headers and why there are so many. There seems to be at least 6 degrees of freedom for variation. 1. Computer family and model (e.g. PDP-8, PDP-11, PDP-11/70) 2. Rack type, the earlier shorter racks had metal headers without rounded corners (see PDP-8/i). Lowboy racks have a slanted header with deeper frame. 3. Intended market. Lab systems was green, industrial was blue/red. (The PDP-12 was available in orange, blue and green) 4. Place of manufacture. The PDP-11 header had either "galway ireland" or "maynard massachusets" printed on them (possibly other places) 5. OEM's had their own designs. 6. Specific systems packaged had their own name and color. I have a PDP-11/34 with a blue header that says "GAMMA-11" I'll provide examples of some of these. Others can be found online. /P
