Re: VT52 keyboard question

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Marc Howard via cctech
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The "2" key on my VT52 is very hard to use.  You've gotta pound it and you
> might get 2 "2"s for your trouble.
>
> I assume that the keyboard switch is made of unobtanium (If you know of a
> substitute chime in) so I'm thinking of swapping it for the "COPY" key
> which I guess is useless unless you have the built-in thermal printer.

On the VT52s/VT55 that I've worked on...

It's actually not a separate switch. There's an single moulded frame for
the entire keyboard. Each swtich constists of a pair of contacts which
naturally touch, a return spring and a plunger that keeps the contacts
apart when the key is not pressed.

You can pull off the keycap. Often carefully cleaning the contacts (which
are then visible) will help. The plunger and spring pull out too, officially
you are not supposed to re-use the plunger but you have to now.

The contacts can be desoldered from the track side of the board and
pulled out. There was a special tool to put them back without damaging
them, it is possible (but tricky) to do it with long-nosed pliers. Avoid
removing the contacts unless you really have to replace them with ones
from another key or keyboard.

It's the same type of contact mechanism as in the early TRS-80 Model
1 and the HP85. The technical reference / service manuals for these
2 machines may be of interest.

-tony

Re: VT52 keyboard question

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Mar 13, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> My guess is that the VT52, VT55, VT05 and LA30 are identical.

No, fortunately not.  The LA30 was notorious for having a very bad and very 
unreliable keyboard.  Some GT40s had that same keyboard as well, I don't 
remember if that changed later.  The keycap shapes were different too: larger 
and more square with sharper corners.

I don't remember the VT05 well enough, it may have been like the LA30 or 
different yet again.

The VT52 keyboard technology shows up in other VT variants of the same family: 
VT55, VT61/t, VT62.  It is also used in the LA36.  Similarly, VT100 style 
keyboards show up in other devices of that era: Gigi for example.  And the 
LA120 may use that generation of switches, I don't remember anymore.

paul

Re: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms

[dwight via cctalk]

What about the package? Is it a DIP or one of the other three

possible packages.

DIPs are going out of style.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of allison via cctalk 

Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 10:02:05 AM
To: Jon Elson; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: sourcing Atmel 29Cxxx series flash roms

On 3/13/17 12:39 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On 03/13/2017 02:23 AM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> I'm almost out of Atmel 29C256 flash roms.  I use these primarily for
>> P112 boot roms.  I'd like some more because I still have P112 boards
>> to sell... and I want them for other projects.  Mouser, Digikey, and
>> Jameco don't have it anymore. What are you guys doing to get these
>> and equivalent chips?
>>
>>
> I have some 27C256, don't know if those are compatible. Alltronics in
> San Jose (or thereabouts) used to have a massive stock of older chips.
>
> Jon
>
>
FYI:

27Cxxx is an EPprom
28Cxxx is an EEprom
29Cxxx is a  flash prom

Then can be pin compatible in SOME system but they program very differently.
IT the system expects to be able to rewrite some locatons then you need
EEPROM.
If the system expects to be able to rewrite blocks then it s flash.
If you put a Eprom in you can do none of those things without a UVlamp
and an external programmer(most cases).

The P112 can use all or any save for being in system writable if needed.

Allison

Optical Mouse Pads

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

I am continuing the clean out of my vast collection of things I no longer have a
need for. (Yes, everything you see me offer here was at one time used by me
in real life!)

I have three different model Optical Mouse Pads.

NDE400306-003F
NCW 402105-003
NDD 402105-003A

Over time I have had optical mice from Sun3's, Sun4's, SGI's and even the
old VisiOn mouse.  I don't believe any of these to be from the Sun3 as it used
bigger squares than these.  Might not be any interest as it probably costs more
to mail them (at least one at a time) than they are worth (unless someone needs
one badly to complete a classic system!)

So, anybody interested?  What would you offer? (Expect about $7.00 for a 
Priority
Mail Envelope which can hold more than one at a time.)

bill

Re: VT52 keyboard question

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk
 wrote:
>
>> On Mar 13, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> My guess is that the VT52, VT55, VT05 and LA30 are identical.
>
> No, fortunately not.  The LA30 was notorious for having a very bad and very 
> unreliable keyboard.  Some GT40s had that same keyboard as well, I don't 
> remember if that changed later.  The keycap shapes were different too: larger 
> and more square with sharper corners.

I know that back in the day, we had about a dozen VT52 and 3 VT50's.
They were the same keyboard, but with different internal circuit
boards (we had a few former VT50's that were upgraded to VT52's, at
least according to the techs that I worked with at the time). I still
remember having to edit my FORTRAN code for a while on a UPPERCASE
ONLY terminal until I got enough seniority to warrant moving up a
dual-case terminal thankfully these were all replaced by VT100s
over the years I worked there and my role shifted a bit to needing a
VT100 to support a customer that had an application that used the
advanced features of the VT100: double size characters, line drawing
boxes, etc.

Man, that was a million years ago...

Warner

Univac I memory tank

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162428766985

Asked if the mercury was still in it. They ignored me.

Pair of Twiggys

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

www.ebay.com/itm/122383386508

still a few hours to go, hovering at $20K

Re: Optical Mouse Pads

[Systems Glitch via cctalk]

Bill,

I'd be interested in one compatible with Sun 5 mice -- right now I use a 
printed paper mousepad when I get out my Sun boxen. If no one else is 
interested, I'd like one or two of them, and if they're otherwise going in the 
trash, I know a few people I could give them to.

Does $5 each + shipping sound fair? I have no idea what they're worth, I 
haven't ever really sought them out.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:09:06 +
Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  wrote:

> 
> I am continuing the clean out of my vast collection of things I no longer 
> have a
> need for. (Yes, everything you see me offer here was at one time used by me
> in real life!)
> 
> I have three different model Optical Mouse Pads.
> 
> NDE400306-003F
> NCW 402105-003
> NDD 402105-003A
> 
> Over time I have had optical mice from Sun3's, Sun4's, SGI's and even the
> old VisiOn mouse.  I don't believe any of these to be from the Sun3 as it used
> bigger squares than these.  Might not be any interest as it probably costs 
> more
> to mail them (at least one at a time) than they are worth (unless someone 
> needs
> one badly to complete a classic system!)
> 
> So, anybody interested?  What would you offer? (Expect about $7.00 for a 
> Priority
> Mail Envelope which can hold more than one at a time.)
> 
> bill

RE: Optical Mouse Pads

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Systems Glitch via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 1:47 PM
To: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
Subject: Re: Optical Mouse Pads

Bill,

I'd be interested in one compatible with Sun 5 mice -- right now I use a 
printed paper mousepad when I get out my Sun boxen. If no one else is 
interested, I'd like one or two of them, and if they're otherwise going in the 
trash, I know a few people I could give them to.

Does $5 each + shipping sound fair? I have no idea what they're worth, I 
haven't ever really sought them out.

___

Not sure if the Sun 5 was different (didn't even know there was a Sun 5).  But 
other than the
Sun 3 with the bigger squares these look exactly the same. $5 each for two 
sounds good to me.
Postage will be $7.00 according tot he receipt from the last envelope I sent 
out.  So $17.
Give me an address and I will pack them up.  Don't know if I willg et to the PO 
tomorrow, though.
We have over 2 feet of snow and it is still coming down.  Roads here are all 
closed and the PO
may not even open up tomorrow.  But I expect I can get there by Wednesday or 
Thursday latest.

Just wrap some money in a sheet of paper and mail it to:
  Bill Gunshannon
  508 Bidwell Hill Rd.
  Lake Ariel, PA 18436

bill

Re: Univac I memory tank

[dwight via cctalk]

Cool. I need on of those.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk 

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:20:00 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Univac I memory tank

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162428766985

Asked if the mercury was still in it. They ignored me.

Re: Univac I memory tank

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

What scares me the most is that there are already 4 bids on it.

Zane




> On Mar 14, 2017, at 11:16 AM, dwight via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Cool. I need on of those.
> 
> Dwight
> 
> 
> 
> From: cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via 
> cctalk 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:20:00 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Univac I memory tank
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/162428766985
> 
> Asked if the mercury was still in it. They ignored me.
> 

Re: Univac I memory tank

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

its been pulled

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> What scares me the most is that there are already 4 bids on it.
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 14, 2017, at 11:16 AM, dwight via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> > Cool. I need on of those.
> >
> > Dwight
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via
> cctalk 
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:20:00 AM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > Subject: Univac I memory tank
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/162428766985
> >
> > Asked if the mercury was still in it. They ignored me.
> >
>
>

Re: Univac I memory tank

[Ian S. King via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> its been pulled
>
> It's still there when I click on the link, five days to go.  Boy howdy,
this would be a headache to get shipped!  Even if the mercury is gone,
there are almost certain to be residuals.  -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: NeXT in Toronto/Canada - was Re: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Mar 8, 2017, at 7:01 PM, Mouse via cctalk  wrote:
> 
>> I'm also a Cube owner in Toronto.  Maybe we should start a local
>> collector's / user's group :D
> 
>> Any others care to speak up?
> 
> I'm in Ottawa.  I've got a - very small! - collection of NeXT hardware.
> A slab or two, at least one megapixel display (the 2bpp greyscale
> kind), some small number of keyboards, a mouse or two, that's probably
> about it.  I gave away my Cube years back.
> 
> I've been tempted to get rid of them, but feel sentimental enough about
> having developed MouseX that I've so far avoided doing so.  Also, I've
> been holding out the (admittedly slight) hope that hardware
> documentation will surface for the interesting hardware; I do not run
> closed-source software, so that's important to me.

Sufficient hardware documentation has been available to write emulators 
(Previous) and port NetBSD.

That said, I don’t understand why one would have NeXT hardware and then run 
NetBSD on it instead of the NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP operating system that was 
designed for it and is period-appropriate. If you’re not going to use it as 
NeXT hardware, maybe someone who will use it that way would be happy to have it.

Also, especially for software that’s (1) built using a common and 
well-undertsood architecture, (2) not “secured” in any way, and (3) not being 
updated, you really can maintain and improve it yourself pretty reasonably.

Heck, there’s a pretty accurate Open Source decompiler for Objective-C called 
“code-dump” (derived Steve Nygard’s “class-dump”) to which it would probably be 
straightforward to add 68040 support…

  -- Chris

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

Good grief!  When did Lisa stuff get so expensive?  I just did a search for 
Apple Lisa on eBay.  Am I this out of touch with the hobby?

Zane




> On Mar 14, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> www.ebay.com/itm/122383386508
> 
> still a few hours to go, hovering at $20K
> 

Re: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:26 PM, Ed via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> OK anyone else have a cube out there that is  cosmetically  decent?  does 
> not need to be internally complete?
> 
> Ours is a bit of a beater  for the  display

What’s wrong with yours that you can’t clean it up for a non-operational 
display?

  -- Chirs

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Zane Healy

> Good grief!  When did Lisa stuff get so expensive?

When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god?

Noel

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:


   > From: Zane Healy

   > Good grief!  When did Lisa stuff get so expensive?

When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god?


Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started...


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware

[Ed via cctalk]

Hi  CHris -We  wanted one cleaner! for the  exterior  view.
 
also  2  are  good.
 
one   can be showed set up 
 and 
another one   for people to peek inside.
 
OK   did that   with  pair  of Altairs   which  due to conditions   worked 
out  well
 
had  pristine looking Altair   with  replacedpower supply and  mother 
board ... blahright?   but  left  closed  for exterior  view in display  
looks   great.
 
had  2ed one  nasty  out side and front pane front...  not  so nice l but  
inside  it  has  the   correct orig. wimpy power supply and the little  
linked together   mother board  segments  with 100 jumper  wiresholding 
each 
together...this MADE A GREAT  INTERIOR display.  
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 3/14/2017 12:08:45 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cmhan...@eschatologist.net writes:

On Mar  12, 2017, at 7:26 PM, Ed via cctalk   wrote:
> 
> OK anyone else have a cube out there that is   cosmetically  decent?  
does 
> not need to be internally  complete?
> 
> Ours is a bit of a beater  for the   display

What’s wrong with yours that you can’t clean it up for a  non-operational 
display?

--  Chirs

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: geneb

>> When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god?

> Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started...

Yes, of course: nobody had thought of a cheap personal computer before him.
(Which reminds me, does the CHM have a Datapoint 2200? If not, we really out
to try to round one up for them.) Or even a personal computer. (Ditto for the
LINC.)

Although I suppose you might have been talking about the software. I mean,
without that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he invented, to allow
ordinary people to use a computer, where would we be?


Look, I fully admit that Steve Jobs was a _very_ sharp person who had a
_tremendous_ influence.

(Every time I hear someone saying marketing people are useless - first up
against the wall, etc - I reply 'No, only bad ones - which is a lot of them.
The very best ones, like Steve Jobs, are worth their weight in triple-refined
iridium. A _good_ marketing person can tell you what customers _want_. A
_truly great_ one can tell you what they _need_, but don't yet even realize
they do.')


However, the people (and there are quite a few of them) who have gone way off
the deep edge, and have turned him (and Apple) into some sort of overblown
cult, just don't have a balanced perspective.

There are plenty of people out there who deserve at least as much credit for
the information society we now live in, who are almost totally unknown to the
population at large; starting (probably) with Licklider.

Noel

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 3/14/17 1:31 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

> does the CHM have a Datapoint 2200?

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1621.99A

RE: Pair of Twiggys

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 4:31 PM

Although I suppose you might have been talking about the software. I mean,
without that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he invented, to allow
ordinary people to use a computer, where would we be?

_

Invented???  Are we ignoring the guy they hired that brought the whole idea of
a GUI and mouse from Xerox Parc?

bill

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:


   > From: geneb

   >> When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god?

   > Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started...

Yes, of course: nobody had thought of a cheap personal computer before him.

I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. :)


Although I suppose you might have been talking about the software. I mean,
without that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from 
Xerox, to allow ordinary people to use a computer, where would we be?


Fixed that for ya. :)


Look, I fully admit that Steve Jobs was a _very_ sharp person who had a
_tremendous_ influence.



Bah, he was an ego-driven trinket salesman.  His trinkets quit being any 
good after the IIgs. :)


g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Raymond Wiker via cctalk]

> On 14 Mar 2017, at 21:31 , Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> (Every time I hear someone saying marketing people are useless - first up
> against the wall, etc - I reply 'No, only bad ones - which is a lot of them.
> The very best ones, like Steve Jobs, are worth their weight in triple-refined
> iridium. A _good_ marketing person can tell you what customers _want_. A
> _truly great_ one can tell you what they _need_, but don't yet even realize
> they do.')
> 
> 
> However, the people (and there are quite a few of them) who have gone way off
> the deep edge, and have turned him (and Apple) into some sort of overblown
> cult, just don't have a balanced perspective.

On the other hand, Steve Jobs wasn't really just a marketing wizard – he was a 
visionary, although some of his visions were less than great. He was also a 
stickler for perfection and largely unwilling to make compromises.

So, Steve Jobs may not have invented the personal computer, or graphical user 
interfaces, but he should get some of the credit for the fact that we're not 
all running Windows on variations of crappy PC hardware.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[corey cohen via cctalk]

When most twiggy media stopped being produced and twiggy drives got thrown into 
the trash as people upgraded their Lisa 1 to a Lisa 2.  

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ

> On Mar 14, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Good grief!  When did Lisa stuff get so expensive?  I just did a search for 
> Apple Lisa on eBay.  Am I this out of touch with the hobby?
> 
> Zane
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 14, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> www.ebay.com/itm/122383386508
>> 
>> still a few hours to go, hovering at $20K
>> 
> 

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: geneb

> I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. :)

With a steam-shovel... :-)

>> that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from Xerox

> Fixed that for ya. :)

Well, technically, as you probably know, the mouse came from Engelbart (well,
his group; I'm not sure who the individual was); and the display, I'm
honestly not sure of.

I know the Knight TV system at the AI Lab was a very early bit-mapped
display, but I don't know where the idea first appeared. (There were of
course influential earlier display systems, such as the one on SAGE, althoug
those were of course all stroke-based systems, given the limited memory of
the period.)

Windows and menus are AFAIK from PARC, but maybe there are antecedents I
don't know of.

> Bah, he was an ego-driven trinket salesman. His trinkets quit being any
> good after the IIgs. :)

Now I'm not sure how serious _you_ are being! :-)

As to the first, there is some truth to it, but like many (all) humans,
he was complex...

Noel

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: geneb

> I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. :)

With a steam-shovel... :-)

>> that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from Xerox

> Fixed that for ya. :)

Well, technically, as you probably know, the mouse came from Engelbart (well,
his group; I'm not sure who the individual was); and the display, I'm
honestly not sure of.

I know the Knight TV system at the AI Lab was a very early bit-mapped
display, but I don't know where the idea first appeared. (There were of
course influential earlier display systems, such as the one on SAGE, althoug
those were of course all stroke-based systems, given the limited memory of
the period.)

Windows and menus are AFAIK from PARC, but maybe there are antecedents I
don't know of.

> Bah, he was an ego-driven trinket salesman. His trinkets quit being any
> good after the IIgs. :)

Now I'm not sure how serious _you_ are being! :-)

As to the first, there is some truth to it, but like many (all) humans,
he was complex...

Hard to say what else he would have done, could he have gone on; perhaps not
so much (he was getting up there, and people do slow down), but I suspect his
early death was a serious loss (in terms of further advances).

Noel

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
Good grief!  When did Lisa stuff get so expensive?  I just did a search 
for Apple Lisa on eBay.  Am I this out of touch with the hobby?


Yes, we are.

Re: Univac I memory tank

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Dwight Kelvey

> I need on of those.

I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of
course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in
the world?

Noel

PS: Sorry about the previous mostly-duplicate message; I hit the 'interrupt'
key and it did the wrong thing.

Re: Univac I memory tank

[dwight via cctalk]

It is not likely to be made to work, easily. From what I was

told, the mercury ones needed to be rebuilt after some time.

Most likely because the mercury dissolved one of the metals

used in side.

I can't imagine what that might be and why they continued

to have such a problem but that is what I hear someplace.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Noel Chiappa via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 2:41:57 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Univac I memory tank

> From: Dwight Kelvey

> I need on of those.

I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of
course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in
the world?

Noel

PS: Sorry about the previous mostly-duplicate message; I hit the 'interrupt'
key and it did the wrong thing.

Re: Univac I memory tank

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2017-Mar-14, at 2:41 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>> From: Dwight Kelvey
>> I need on of those.
> 
> I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of
> course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in
> the world?

Depends on how particular you want to be about categorisation, there are some 
number of
60s calculators using magnetostrictive delay line memory still in existence and 
working (I've got several).

Re: Univac I memory tank

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Mar 14, 2017, at 5:45 PM, dwight via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> It is not likely to be made to work, easily. From what I was
> told, the mercury ones needed to be rebuilt after some time.
> Most likely because the mercury dissolved one of the metals
> used in side.
> 
> I can't imagine what that might be and why they continued
> to have such a problem but that is what I hear someplace.
> 
> Dwight

Possible, but it seems odd.  Mercury dissolves lots of metals (iron is one 
exception), forming alloys called amalgams.  But that's well known, you would 
expect people making mercury based devices to know it and avoid it.

paul

Re: Univac I memory tank

[Ben Sinclair via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work,
> of
> course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in
> the world?
>

If that's from a Univac I, I'd love to see it in a museum as well!
According to Wikipedia there were only 18 Univac I installations, so this
is a pretty rare piece.


-- 
Ben Sinclair
b...@bensinclair.com

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god?

Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started...



an unreliable source, who was working in Apple at the time, said that it 
was being touted "for the unwashed masses, or at least ignorant rich 
folk".
Somebody was smart enough to latch onto that and change it from third 
person to first person plural.

Using computer phobia to market computers was a smart move.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 14, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> Good grief!  When did Lisa stuff get so expensive?  I just did a search for 
>> Apple Lisa on eBay.  Am I this out of touch with the hobby?
> 
> Yes, we are.

LOL, thanks Fred!  I’ll freely admit that I’m out of touch, as these days my 
focus is my photography.  Since I need to free up space to build a better 
darkroom, the rise in value is of interest.  Maybe I can free up some space and 
fund the my darkroom project. :-)

Zane

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Good grief!  When did Lisa stuff get so expensive?  I just did a 
search for Apple Lisa on eBay.  Am I this out of touch with the hobby?

Yes, we are.

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Zane Healy wrote:
LOL, thanks Fred!  I’ll freely admit that I’m out of touch, as these 
days my focus is my photography.  Since I need to free up space to build 
a better darkroom, the rise in value is of interest.  Maybe I can free 
up some space and fund the my darkroom project. :-)


Ah, out of touch on that, as well!
"But, you can do ANYTHING with Photoshop!"   Yeah.  right.

Want a stabilization processor?
Most of a ragged Beseler 45, plus a dichroic head that I never got around 
to rebuilding and mating?
Movie film daylight developing tank?  (motorized back-and-forth reel to 
reel 16mm, 35mm, but not large diameter reels)

Fujinon desktop holography camera?  (needs new laser tube)
bellows for 35mm?   tilt and shift?   (I am keeping my 
Hama/Kenlock/Spiratone for now, but getting rid of the rest)

Selling my Linhof and Tachihara soon.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[william degnan via cctalk]

>
>
>
> I know the Knight TV system at the AI Lab was a very early bit-mapped
> display, but I don't know where the idea first appeared. (There were of
> course influential earlier display systems, such as the one on SAGE,
> althoug
> those were of course all stroke-based systems, given the limited memory of
> the period.)
>
>
Anyone know about the Volscan "GUI" that allowed a person to point a light
gun at a display, points representing planes, in order to automate landing
them?  I made a page about the Volscan in 2006, may need updates.  "Volscan
Light Gun for assigning Antracs (Auto-matic tracking-while-scanning)."  but
here it is.

http://vintagecomputer.net/volscan.cfm

bILL

Photography, was Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Kyle Owen via cctalk]

On Mar 14, 2017 5:24 PM, "Fred Cisin via cctalk" 
wrote:


Ah, out of touch on that, as well!
"But, you can do ANYTHING with Photoshop!"   Yeah.  right.

Want a stabilization processor?
Most of a ragged Beseler 45, plus a dichroic head that I never got around
to rebuilding and mating?
Movie film daylight developing tank?  (motorized back-and-forth reel to
reel 16mm, 35mm, but not large diameter reels)
Fujinon desktop holography camera?  (needs new laser tube)
bellows for 35mm?   tilt and shift?   (I am keeping my
Hama/Kenlock/Spiratone for now, but getting rid of the rest)
Selling my Linhof and Tachihara soon.


Just got through setting up a darkroom in my upstairs bathroom. Did some
developing years ago, but it's nice getting back into it. Looking at doing
some wet plate work next, but I haven't found a cheap source of ether yet.

Kyle

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Brad H via cctalk]

I don't know if I'd pay $25k for Twiggys but I understand the impulse.  The 
problem is, what happens when the novelty wears off?  I also wonder what the 
long term value is as generations that experienced these things pass on to 
those who've never known a day withot a smartphone.
That's a worry for another day though.  For now.. I'm thinking about grabbing a 
shovel and going digging for Twiggy gold at a certain dump in Logan.


Sent from my Samsung device

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Brad H via cctalk wrote:
I don't know if I'd pay $25k for Twiggys but I understand the impulse. 
 The problem is, what happens when the novelty wears off?  I also 
wonder what the long term value is as generations that experienced these 
things pass on to those who've never known a day withot a smartphone.
That's a worry for another day though.  For now.. I'm thinking about 
grabbing a shovel and going digging for Twiggy gold at a certain dump in 
Logan.


If you had a pair of Twiggys, but no Lisa, could you create a USB 
interface to use them on a modern machine?

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[TeoZ via cctalk]

Jobs had to get fired for Apple to recall the expansion capabilities of the 
Apple II days and start making the Mac II series.


-Original Message- 
From: geneb via cctalk

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 4:46 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:


Bah, he was an ego-driven trinket salesman.  His trinkets quit being any
good after the IIgs. :)

g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Photography, was Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Joe Giliberti via cctalk]

Looking at doing
some wet plate work next, but I haven't found a cheap source of ether yet.


Maybe a surgical supply place in a bad neighborhood?

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I’m reminded of the current, and ludicrous, Mac Pro. :-(

Zane



> On Mar 14, 2017, at 3:49 PM, TeoZ via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Jobs had to get fired for Apple to recall the expansion capabilities of the 
> Apple II days and start making the Mac II series.
> 
> -Original Message- From: geneb via cctalk
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 4:46 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys
> 
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> Bah, he was an ego-driven trinket salesman.  His trinkets quit being any
> good after the IIgs. :)
> 
> g.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
> 
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 

Re: Photography, was Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 14, 2017, at 3:37 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Mar 14, 2017 5:24 PM, "Fred Cisin via cctalk" 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Ah, out of touch on that, as well!
> "But, you can do ANYTHING with Photoshop!"   Yeah.  right.
> 
> Want a stabilization processor?
> Most of a ragged Beseler 45, plus a dichroic head that I never got around
> to rebuilding and mating?
> Movie film daylight developing tank?  (motorized back-and-forth reel to
> reel 16mm, 35mm, but not large diameter reels)
> Fujinon desktop holography camera?  (needs new laser tube)
> bellows for 35mm?   tilt and shift?   (I am keeping my
> Hama/Kenlock/Spiratone for now, but getting rid of the rest)
> Selling my Linhof and Tachihara soon.
> 
> 
> Just got through setting up a darkroom in my upstairs bathroom. Did some
> developing years ago, but it's nice getting back into it. Looking at doing
> some wet plate work next, but I haven't found a cheap source of ether yet.
> 
> Kyle

These days, even when printing in the darkroom, photoshop may be involved.  
Lots of folks are creating digital negatives.

I don’t know if you can even get paper for a stabilization processor, not to 
mention I doubt it would work for me.  My main enlarger (currently the only 
usable one) is a old Beseler 45.  I spent a day last summer getting it working 
better.

My latest score was two Jobo CPE2 processors in the last month.  Between the 
two, I only need one more tank (and technically I don’t need it).  I can now do 
daylight rotary processing of anything from 35mm to 11x14 (I can currently 
shoot up to 8x10).  So far I’ve only used it to process 8x10 sheet film.

One of my next projects needs to be to get a proper darkroom setup, so that I 
can heat it, or cool it.  That way I can work year around.  Ideally it would 
include room for things like drum scanners and LF printers, but that’s 
dreaming. :-)

Zane

RE: Pair of Twiggys

[Brad H via cctalk]

I'm assuming anything can be interfaced to old tech.  But if I had Twiggys I do 
have a Lisa they could go into.  Or I'd just sell them and buy something a lot 
more useful. :)

What'd be cool if replicas could be made somehow.  I don't know what all goes 
into a disk drive but I imagine it's in the realm of possibility at least.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via 
cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 3:45 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Brad H via cctalk wrote:
> I don't know if I'd pay $25k for Twiggys but I understand the impulse. 
> The problem is, what happens when the novelty wears off?  I also  
>wonder what the long term value is as generations that experienced 
>these  things pass on to those who've never known a day withot a smartphone.
> That's a worry for another day though.  For now.. I'm thinking about  
>grabbing a shovel and going digging for Twiggy gold at a certain dump 
>in  Logan.

If you had a pair of Twiggys, but no Lisa, could you create a USB interface to 
use them on a modern machine?

RE: Pair of Twiggys

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Brad H wrote:
I'm assuming anything can be interfaced to old tech.  But if I had 
Twiggys I do have a Lisa they could go into.  Or I'd just sell them and 
buy something a lot more useful. :)
What'd be cool if replicas could be made somehow.  I don't know what all 
goes into a disk drive but I imagine it's in the realm of possibility at 
least.


It would be possible, but a bit of work to make them.
A lot depends on whether you want to make replicas, or compatible.

Jobs wanted a closed system with significantly increased difficulty for 
after-market supply of common items.  The bizarre Twiggy drive system did 
not provide improvement over 96tpi double density ("quad") standard 
systems.



A long time ago, Eric Smith explained to  me the details about them (he 
could probably build one):
1) track to track spacing is 62.5? tracks per inch, as opposed to the 
"standard" 48tpi or 96tpi (or less common 100tpi (Micropois))  That should 
not be very hard to do, but not trivial.


2) They used variable rotation speed, from 200RPM? to 350RPM?, to make 
less variation in the FCPI (flus changes per inch)  Relatively trivial, for a 
drive to be used on something other than the original Lisa, as the 
rotational speed could be left constant, and vary the data transfer rate.


3) Instead of a "normal" pair of facing heads, they wanted to keep single 
sided heads, with their felt pressure pads, so they went with that strange 
double slot, providing unmatched opportunities for always leaving a 
thumbprint on the media.  That could be easily worked around, by simply 
using conventional double sided head, and maybe, in some cases, losing 
half a revolution waiting for the desired sector to come around.  Very few 
pieces of software (copy protection) rely on the relative timing of the 
two sides.   Since the Twiggy heads are connected to the same mechanism, 
but on opposite sides of the spindle, when one head is hubward, the other 
one is rimward, so for most purposes, switching to a conventional head 
system would provide improvements in speed.
The optimum speed method for reading a Lisa Twiggy would be to stick with 
one side, reading all tracks, and then when at the last track, the other 
head would be in position to read the first track of that side.  That is 
not the same as what we have become accustomed to, where after reading one 
track, switch to the other head, and read that track of the other side, 
and then step to get to the next two tracks.


4) GCR.I don't know the specific GCR pattern used, but that 
information is out there, or can be empirically determined.


5a) There is an extra hole, for latching the disk in place? or for later 
plans for a disk changer?


5b) Notch out of one corner to avoid ibverted insertion.

5c) Write protect/enable notch is in a different position.  Trivial.
(I was amazed that on the "Computer Bowl" quiz show, nobody on Bill Gates' 
team could remember where the write protect notch on an 8" disk was!)



Total capacity was 850K?

Media appears to be 600 Oersted  (same as 1.2M)

You will not be able to use a Western Digital/IBM style of disk 
controller, due to the GCR, non-WD/IBM sector headers, and maybe the 
variable speed.


BUT, if you manage the track spacing, then it should be possible 
to read them with a flux transition board, such as Kryoflux.

Or, design and build a suitable logic board.

There are a couple of ways to manage the track spacing, ranging from 
analog positioner (Amlyn), extremely crude milling a new "record" for an 
SA390/SA400, different diameter winding hub for split band positioner, 
gearing interposed between stepper and positioner, different stepper 
motor, etc.  I know none of the details for doing those, but it does not 
seem insurmountable.



Judging by the eBay response, it looks like a replica (or counterfeit?) 
would be far more valuable than a usable substitute.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 3/14/17 5:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Judging by the eBay response, it looks like a replica (or counterfeit?) would 
> be far more valuable than a usable
> substitute.

I keep waiting to see how much a Macintosh version of the Twiggy would sell for.
The interface is completely different that the one used on Lisa and I have 
never seen one for sale.

1.2meg media works fine in a Twiggy jacket.

The mechanics of the drive positioner stinks. I spent months recovering Twiggy 
media in 2015
and keeping the heads clean and the pads on was a PITA. You have to completely 
disassemble the
drive to work on the back head.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2017-03-14 9:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:



On 3/14/17 5:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


Judging by the eBay response, it looks like a replica (or counterfeit?) would 
be far more valuable than a usable
substitute.


I keep waiting to see how much a Macintosh version of the Twiggy would sell for.
The interface is completely different that the one used on Lisa and I have 
never seen one for sale.

1.2meg media works fine in a Twiggy jacket.

The mechanics of the drive positioner stinks. I spent months recovering Twiggy 
media in 2015
and keeping the heads clean and the pads on was a PITA. You have to completely 
disassemble the
drive to work on the back head.





Only you, Al, only you, would have the patience.

--T

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Mar 14, 2017, at 1:46 PM, geneb via cctalk  wrote:
> 
>> Although I suppose you might have been talking about the software. I mean,
>> without that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from Xerox, to 
>> allow ordinary people to use a computer, where would we be?
> 
> Fixed that for ya. :)

Two problems with this repetition of a bogus meme:

1. Xerox got pre-IPO Apple stock in exchange for the PARC visits and the chance 
to use and build on what they saw.

2. What the Apple folks saw and what was implemented for Lisa and then 
Macintosh were vastly different.

Just a few examples:

- Overlapping windows that update even when partially obscured.
- The top-of-screen menu bar.
- The one-button mouse.
- Open & save dialog boxes.

A lot of research and development went into the Lisa and Macintosh interfaces. 
They weren’t just “copied from Xerox.” If you sit someone who knows how to use 
a Mac in front of a circa-1979 Xerox Alto, they’ll be pretty mystified.

Some of it is documented on the Folklore site, a large portion is documented in 
“Inventing the Lisa Human Interface,” a retrospective paper written by a couple 
of the Lisa folks for ACM’s Interactions journal about 20 years ago.

  -- Chris

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 3/14/17 6:23 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote:
> a large portion is documented in “Inventing the Lisa Human Interface,” a 
> retrospective paper written by a couple of the Lisa folks for ACM’s 
> Interactions journal about 20 years ago.
> 

http://www.guidebookgallery.org/articles/inventingthelisauserinterface

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> www.ebay.com/itm/122383386508
>
> still a few hours to go, hovering at $20K
>

And the answer is $32,100.52 (plus $20.95 shipping)

Re: Univac I memory tank

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

The mercury also gets dirty from its own oxidization

On Mar 14, 2017 5:00 PM, "Ben Sinclair via cctalk" 
wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work,
> > of
> > course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left
> in
> > the world?
> >
>
> If that's from a Univac I, I'd love to see it in a museum as well!
> According to Wikipedia there were only 18 Univac I installations, so this
> is a pretty rare piece.
>
>
> --
> Ben Sinclair
> b...@bensinclair.com
>

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

 Original message From: Glen Slick via 
cctalk wrote:
>>
>> www.ebay.com/itm/122383386508
>>
>> still a few hours to go, hovering at $20K
>
>
>And the answer is $32,100.52 (plus $20.95 >shipping)

Ugh.. they always get ya on the shipping.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 3/14/2017 9:52 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote:

And the answer is $32,100.52 (plus $20.95 >shipping)

Ugh.. they always get ya on the shipping.
Mr. 595 must be pissed off.  guess he thought 32000 was a ridiculous 
enough high number he'd win.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

This statement is hurting my brain. I was never an Apple (company) user or fan 
but personally felt the Apple product line was hacker friendly before the Apple 
II c threatened to void your warranty if opened, then the Mac seemed to follow 
similar unfriendly EULAS.
But then again I wouldn't have guess GUI would win the UI war either when it 
was so great to type exactly what you needed with minimal system resources. 
Admittedly my opinions seem to only satisfy myself ;-)
You prefer Apple and expansions or Mac II?
 Original message From: TeoZ via cctalk  
Date: 3/14/17  5:49 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: geneb , "General 
Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  Subject: Re: 
Pair of Twiggys 
Jobs had to get fired for Apple to recall the expansion capabilities of the 
Apple II days and start making the Mac II series.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Raymond Wiker via cctalk]

> On 14 Mar 2017, at 23:49 , TeoZ via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Jobs had to get fired for Apple to recall the expansion capabilities of the 
> Apple II days and start making the Mac II series.

Jobs left Apple in 1985 and returned in 1997. The Macintosh II was introduced 
in 1987; two years after Jobs left and 10 years before he returned.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/14/2017 10:02 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote:
> This statement is hurting my brain. I was never an Apple (company)
> user or fan but personally felt the Apple product line was hacker
> friendly before the Apple II c threatened to void your warranty if
> opened, then the Mac seemed to follow similar unfriendly EULAS. But
> then again I wouldn't have guess GUI would win the UI war either when
> it was so great to type exactly what you needed with minimal system
> resources. Admittedly my opinions seem to only satisfy myself ;-) You
> prefer Apple and expansions or Mac II?  Original message


Apple still up to the same business fighting the same battle.  No "right
to repair" old iJunk:

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/source-apple-will-fight-right-to-repair-legislation

--Chuck