DEC Rainbow, Pro 380 parts available,
I have the following Rainbow/ PRO parts for sale. I would like to sell the the mother board and everything on it. If I don't get offers for them, I might split them up. I might have more loose parts as I continue digging. No complete units with cases at this time. I'm waiting for some to arrive I bought over a year ago. Please contact me off list with any questions and offers. Shipping is from 61853, and will be $15 per PC100 mother board, overseas please ask me for rate. I plan to ship everything sold next week. UNIT 1: PC100B motherboard RX50 controller 54-15482 RD51 controller 54-16019 54-15688 8087 memory adapter 54-16535 UNIT 2Same as unit 1 UNIT 3 PC100B motherboard RX50 controller 54-15688 UNIT 4 PC100A motherboard RX50 controller 54-15490 memory expansion, no sockets UNIT 5 and 6 PC100A motherboard RX50 interface Misc- 2 H7842 power supplies PRO items 3 PRO 380 motherboards I hope everything is correct and there are no typo.
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/04/2017 06:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: >> Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried. >> Couldn't >> do it at all. Tons of errors, no tracks could be read. IMD didn't >> recognise the layout at all. >> All the disks I tried were like this. > > Then, either it is impossible to read with the PC FDC, or we missed > something. > > Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density? > I think that Dave has a utility to test that. > > > Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central > point option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)? First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2 aka RX02. RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track PC can read them. RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is totally unreadable with any LSI controller. It uses FM headers to confuse the act. To read that you need: - RX02 and a compatible system. - one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300 family chips) in a DEC box (and cpu). -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC. Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8" SSSD). It can also read and write RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01. RX02 format was unique to DEC and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware compatible controllers. First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the second. Then the possible 8" ODS formats are DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit formatting). The PDP-11 group RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common. Note PDT150 is also PDP-11 RX01. This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks. The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over time. VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode. It is PDP11 and RX01 media. Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any format compatible with the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target. I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for the VAX78x family as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive. To do that it had to have a unibus RX controller and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had utilities for most all the PDP11 formats. Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode. Microvax and later machine did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot sequence. In those cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax (not a supported config) assembled as a hack. Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5") as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later firmware supported 5.25" Teac and 3.5" Sony drives as well. RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50 and 3.5" Sony drives. Because of this and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used. The RQDX controllers could do the stated floppies even is MFM disks were not connected. Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media. in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough. IF RX02 a pdp11 and RX02(or third party equivalent) makes it easy.To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux reader, 765 and later clones cannot. How do I know. I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX, uVAX2000, and 3100 family). I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode and a CP/M utility that knew RT11 format. IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to RX01 media using FIT or other tools. Allison
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/04/2017 09:05 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: >> The 'RX02' format used by PUTR is actually IBM System 34 format, >> since DEC's 8" DD disks use a strange combination of SD headers >> with non-standard ID marks, and DD data fields, that can't be >> accessed with a standard PC FDC regardless of the software used." > Right. It's definitely a possibility then. PUTR can do RX01 media formats. Since the PC cannot do the unique mixed density format saying RX02 is potentially inaccurate. Reason is that RX02 is a dual density drive system . Its also a RX02 512Kb media *or* RX01 256kb. That meas RX02 drive can read and write RX01 media in RX01 mode and hence system 34 compatible media. The RX02 had three interfaces, omnibus, qbus, unibus. RX01 is a drive system that is older and only does the 256K system 34 aka SSSD 8". The media is called RX01 as well. PCs can do this. Neither can read RX02 media unless reformated to RX01 (if full, you need two to hold the data due to storage capacity difference ) or using Catsweasel or similar. This subsystem had three different bus level interfaces Omnibus, Qbus, Unibus. The difference between the two is the bus controller and the logic in the drive subsystem. Both use the same physical disk drive and on first glance look the same. Allison
Re: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears "fixed"
I decided to take a look at the code.
The github history shows that there were no changes
to any 1130-specific files between
April 3, 2015 "All: Convert from C runtime library perror()
to sim_perror(). . ." and
May 15,2016 "All: Massive 'const' cleanup"
whereas the change in behavior of the Win32 Development binary
of ibm1132.exe occurred sometime between
simh-4.0-Beta--2016-01-07-e8ea427d and
simh-4.0-Beta--2016-01-29-b8049645 .
This suggests that something changed **around** the
1130 code, in the SimH infrastructure itself.
I didn't bother to look for code commits in SimH framework
files between Jan. 7 and Jan. 29 2016; instead, I
took a look at the 1130-specific files for anything having to do with
the handling of "wait states", and there was one pretty
obvious place in ibm1130_cpu.c (particularly lines 586-606):
-
532 while (reason == 0) {
. . .
586if (wait_state) {/* waiting? */
sim_interval = 0; /* run the clock out */
if (sim_qcount() <= (cgi ? 0 : 1)) {/* one routine queued? we're
waiting for keyboard only */
if (keyboard_is_busy()) {/* we are actually waiting for
a keystroke */
if ((status = sim_process_event()) != SCPE_OK)/* get it with
wait_state still set */
reason = simh_status_to_stopcode(status);
}
else { /* CPU is not expecting a keystroke (keyboard
interrupt) */
if (wait_state == WAIT_OP)
reason = STOP_WAIT; /* end the simulation */
else
reason = STOP_INVALID_INSTR;
}
}
if (gdu_active()) /* but don't stop simulator if 2250 GDU
is running */
reason = 0;
continue;
606}
. . .
1170 }
-
I stuck some print statements in there, and sure enough,
if the simulator isn't dropping back into a command prompt
after DMS boots or after a job finishes, it's because this
loop never exits.
The sim_qcount() call looked interesting -- it seems
to be examining a SimH "event queue". Not being familiar with
SimH internals, I have no clear idea what this queue contains,
but the 1130 code seems to be making an assumption about the
number of items that should be there, an assumption which
is apparently no longer correct (and was always incorrect
when throttling is on).
This has nothing to do with the GUI, actually -- the behavior is
the same with "set gui off" in the initial command file, and I
did my initial poking around with a quick-and-dirty Cygwin-built
executable with no SDL support anyway. (I've now switched to
the latest MinGW with gcc 5.3.0 and SDL graphics.)
Again, I have no idea what the SimH infrastructure is putting
on this event queue that wasn't there before -- it may
have something to do with changes to the SCP.
I also don't know what "CGI mode" is -- that's something specific
to the 1130 simulator, apparently -- it's mentioned in the
"Reference Guide", but it isn't defined. But apparently there's
an on-line version of the simulator at ibm1130.org that protects
its disk image from permanent changes, and this operates in
"CGI mode", whatever the letter stand for. I presume I'm
not operating in "CGI mode".
Anyway, this is the horrific kludge I put in ibm1130_cpu.c to make
the GUI (or more exactly, wait states leading to dropping back
to the SimH prompt) work as expected, with or without throttling,
and with the latest github download of simh-master source.
(Even the 2250 GDU demo works.) It's entirely empirical, without
any deep understanding of what's going on, and
may well break down the road.
-
337 static int s_qcount_initial = 0; /* saves first-ever event queue count,
immediately after DMS boot */
338 static int s_qcount_onetime_decrement = 1;
. . .
536 while (reason == 0) {
. . .
590if (wait_state) {/* waiting? */
sim_interval = 0; /* run the clock out */
#if 0
if (sim_qcount() <= (cgi ? 0 : 1)) {/* one routine queued? we're
waiting for keyboard only */
#else
int s_qcount = sim_qcount();
if (s_qcount_initial == 0)
{
s_qcount_initial = s_qcount;
}
if (s_qcount <= s_qcount_initial-s_qcount_onetime_decrement) { /* one
routine queued? we're waiting for keyboard only */
s_qcount_onetime_decrement = 0;
#endif
if (keyboard_is_busy()) {/* we are actually waiting for
a keystroke */
if ((status = sim_process_event()) != SCPE_OK)/* get it with
wait_state still set */
reason = simh_status_to_stopcode(status);
}
else { /* CPU is not expecting a keystroke (keyboard
interrupt) */
if (wait_state == WAIT_OP)
RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
From: Terry Stewart Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM > Just tying up some unfinished business. Right at the beginning of this > thread I said... >> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch >> floppy disks. They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them. >> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software >> was used to write the files. They may be CP/M, or some other format >> entirely. > It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I > scoured the Internet for something that might read them. Stop there. 8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of. The rest is left as an exercise for the reader. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:ri...@livingcomputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/
Anyone have a scan of the back cover of "UNIX System V Release 1 User's Manual" (Jan 1983)_Jan83.pdf
The scan of http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/att/unix/System_V_Release_1/301-905_UNIX_System_V_Release_1_Users_Manual_Jan83.pdf has good contents, but the back cover skewed in the scanner. I picked up a copy that is missing the back cover and I want to print a replacement. Anyone have something I can print? Thanks, -ethan
Re: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
Yea, my setup is similar, though it goes to a USB serial on my Intel server since that was near by and handy. 9600 is totally reliable, 19200 is too flakey to use, though I'd like more speed. Then again, 310cps is about all I can do with XMODEM and 250cps with KERMIT in LCTERM. Warner On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 8:18 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > OK.. I will use LCTERM on my Rainbow to Kermit to my Raspberry Pi. > b > > On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Thu, 4 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> >>> The old fashioned way: copy the files on the rainbow to the hard >>> drive, kermit to my unix box. >>> I have a kryoflux, but it's being nothing but frustrating to me since >>> I don't know if I have a known good floppy it supports or not. I mean >>> I have two 5.25 1.2M floppy drives, just have no way of knowing if >>> they are good or not and am loathe to try to buy another one... So >>> I'm reading them the only way I know how: via an RX-50 on my >>> Rainbow... >>> >> >> Rainbow disks are readable on a PC with 1.2M. But, it's sometimes a >> little easier if you use a 720K 5.25" drive. >> >> 96tpi, 300 RPM with 250K data transfer rate >> (or, with some 1.2M drives: 360RPM with 300K data transfer rate, but NOT >> double stepping as would be done for 360K disk at that data transfer rate) >> >> >> There are commercial programs available for the PC to read/write Rainbow, >> and even programs for the Rainbow to read/write PC 160K/180K disks. >> (for writing PC on the Rainbow, start with a virgin disk, and format it on >> the Rainbow in PC format, or in a PC using a 1.2M drive in 190K format >> -same track width problems as rewriting 360K disks in 1.2M drive) >>
Re: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
I treat the few working SSQD drives I have like they're gold. The visual 1050 uses them too.
Re: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
OK.. I will use LCTERM on my Rainbow to Kermit to my Raspberry Pi. b On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 4 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > >> The old fashioned way: copy the files on the rainbow to the hard >> drive, kermit to my unix box. >> I have a kryoflux, but it's being nothing but frustrating to me since >> I don't know if I have a known good floppy it supports or not. I mean >> I have two 5.25 1.2M floppy drives, just have no way of knowing if >> they are good or not and am loathe to try to buy another one... So >> I'm reading them the only way I know how: via an RX-50 on my >> Rainbow... >> > > Rainbow disks are readable on a PC with 1.2M. But, it's sometimes a > little easier if you use a 720K 5.25" drive. > > 96tpi, 300 RPM with 250K data transfer rate > (or, with some 1.2M drives: 360RPM with 300K data transfer rate, but NOT > double stepping as would be done for 360K disk at that data transfer rate) > > > There are commercial programs available for the PC to read/write Rainbow, > and even programs for the Rainbow to read/write PC 160K/180K disks. > (for writing PC on the Rainbow, start with a virgin disk, and format it on > the Rainbow in PC format, or in a PC using a 1.2M drive in 190K format > -same track width problems as rewriting 360K disks in 1.2M drive) >
Re: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 4 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> >> The old fashioned way: copy the files on the rainbow to the hard >> drive, kermit to my unix box. >> I have a kryoflux, but it's being nothing but frustrating to me since >> I don't know if I have a known good floppy it supports or not. I mean >> I have two 5.25 1.2M floppy drives, just have no way of knowing if >> they are good or not and am loathe to try to buy another one... So >> I'm reading them the only way I know how: via an RX-50 on my >> Rainbow... > > > Rainbow disks are readable on a PC with 1.2M. But, it's sometimes a little > easier if you use a 720K 5.25" drive. True. I have two I bought back in the day for the Rainbow that I've not been able to get to work on my PC or kyroflux. They are TEAC 55FRs... > 96tpi, 300 RPM with 250K data transfer rate > (or, with some 1.2M drives: 360RPM with 300K data transfer rate, but NOT > double stepping as would be done for 360K disk at that data transfer rate) Correct. I've done it before years ago on FreeBSD, I thought with the TEAC 55FRs, but it may have been with the 55GRF that I have... > There are commercial programs available for the PC to read/write Rainbow, > and even programs for the Rainbow to read/write PC 160K/180K disks. > (for writing PC on the Rainbow, start with a virgin disk, and format it on > the Rainbow in PC format, or in a PC using a 1.2M drive in 190K format -same > track width problems as rewriting 360K disks in 1.2M drive) Yes. And you could use the IMPDRIVE.SYS that I wrote and put a 720k 3.5" drive into the Rainbow and do the transfer that way too, since it allowed you to read/write standard IBM disks. Trouble with that is that my newer computers don't even have a floppy port and the older ones in the bone yard are broken... I have 40 or 50 backup disks that I should read into the my unix boxes sometimes. Warner
Re: Re: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts
>First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2 >aka RX02. >(..an in-depth explanation) >How do I know. I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX, >uVAX2000, and 3100 family). >I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode >and a CP/M utility that >knew RT11 format. IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to >RX01 media using FIT or other >tools. Thanks for that explanation Allison. I see there are all sorts of complex systems and formats. Based on what I've read, I'll call it quits with this project. The guys in the lab in the next building can take it further if they want to. They didn't want anything specific off the floppies. It was a case of "we want to toss these disks. but perhaps we should copy the stuff off these disks...just in case". Thanks for taking the time to respond. It's been an interesting learning exercise. Terry On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Thank you! > > Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check them > out for Terry. > > > Experience always beats speculation: > > On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote: > >> First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2 >> aka RX02. >> >> RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track PC can read them. >> >> RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is >> totally >> unreadable with any LSI controller. It uses FM headers to confuse the >> act. >> To read that you need: >> - RX02 and a compatible system. >> - one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300 >> family chips) in a DEC box (and cpu). >> -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC. >> >> Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8" >> SSSD). It can also read and write >> RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01. RX02 >> format was unique to DEC >> and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware >> compatible controllers. >> >> First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the >> second. >> >> Then the possible 8" ODS formats are >> >> DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit >> formatting). >> >> The PDP-11 group RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common. Note PDT150 >> is also PDP-11 RX01. >> This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks. >> The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and >> 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over >> time. >> >> VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode. It is PDP11 and >> RX01 media. >> Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any >> format compatible with >> the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target. >> >> I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for >> the VAX78x family >> as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive. To do that it had to >> have a unibus RX controller >> and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had >> utilities for most all the >> PDP11 formats. >> >> Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode. >> Microvax and later machine >> did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot >> sequence. In those >> cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax >> (not a supported config) >> assembled as a hack. Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used >> RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5") >> as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later >> firmware supported 5.25" Teac >> and 3.5" Sony drives as well. RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50 and 3.5" Sony >> drives. Because of this >> and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used. The RQDX >> controllers could do the stated >> floppies even is MFM disks were not connected. >> >> Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media. >> >> in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough. IF RX02 >> a pdp11 and RX02(or third party >> equivalent) makes it easy.To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux >> reader, 765 and later clones cannot. >> >> How do I know. I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX, >> uVAX2000, and 3100 family). >> I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode >> and a CP/M utility that >> knew RT11 format. IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to >> RX01 media using FIT or other >> tools. >> >> >> Allison >> >
Re: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
On Thu, 4 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: The old fashioned way: copy the files on the rainbow to the hard drive, kermit to my unix box. I have a kryoflux, but it's being nothing but frustrating to me since I don't know if I have a known good floppy it supports or not. I mean I have two 5.25 1.2M floppy drives, just have no way of knowing if they are good or not and am loathe to try to buy another one... So I'm reading them the only way I know how: via an RX-50 on my Rainbow... Rainbow disks are readable on a PC with 1.2M. But, it's sometimes a little easier if you use a 720K 5.25" drive. 96tpi, 300 RPM with 250K data transfer rate (or, with some 1.2M drives: 360RPM with 300K data transfer rate, but NOT double stepping as would be done for 360K disk at that data transfer rate) There are commercial programs available for the PC to read/write Rainbow, and even programs for the Rainbow to read/write PC 160K/180K disks. (for writing PC on the Rainbow, start with a virgin disk, and format it on the Rainbow in PC format, or in a PC using a 1.2M drive in 190K format -same track width problems as rewriting 360K disks in 1.2M drive)
Re: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
The old fashioned way: copy the files on the rainbow to the hard drive, kermit to my unix box. I have a kryoflux, but it's being nothing but frustrating to me since I don't know if I have a known good floppy it supports or not. I mean I have two 5.25 1.2M floppy drives, just have no way of knowing if they are good or not and am loathe to try to buy another one... So I'm reading them the only way I know how: via an RX-50 on my Rainbow... I meant to get the Venix disks in the mail today, but today got away from me. I'll get them in tomorrow. Warner On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 7:41 PM, william degnan wrote: > Warner, > How are you uploading and downloading disks from the Rainbow...via the > Rainbow or by reading the disks using an image program? I grabbed a copy of > Windows. I may have a spare graphics card. > Bill > > On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk > wrote: >> >> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >> > On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Huw Davies >> > wrote: >> >> >> >>> On 19 Aug 2016, at 02:31, shad wrote: >> >>> >> >>> It seems that copies of this software are really difficult to find, >> >>> but a complete copy >> >>> was available on the latrobe ftp DEC Rainbow archive... which >> >>> disappeared with all valuable data... >> >>> Anybody has a copy of the content before the deletion? >> >> >> >> I’m sure the archive would have been set up by Paul Nankervis who I >> >> used to work with at La Trobe. I’ll see if he still has the original >> >> copies. >> > >> > I have a bunch of disks for my Rainbow labeled Windows 1.0 if there's >> > no archives that have them. >> >> All the online archives seem to have a bogus copy, that's a mix of >> VAXmate and Rainwbow files and it doesn't work. >> >> So I discovered I have a copy that isn't in the archives. I've >> uploaded it. Details in my blog entry >> http://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2017/05/rainbow-100-windows-10-disks-redux.html >> about things. At least one member has these files and is trying to >> make them work. Since I don't have Graphics Adapter, I've not worried >> too much about them... But I've had them in my collection since I >> think 2001... >> >> Warner > >
Re: Windows 1.0 For DEC Rainbow (mirror of Latrobe ftp anybody ?)
Warner, How are you uploading and downloading disks from the Rainbow...via the Rainbow or by reading the disks using an image program? I grabbed a copy of Windows. I may have a spare graphics card. Bill On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Huw Davies > > wrote: > >> > >>> On 19 Aug 2016, at 02:31, shad wrote: > >>> > >>> It seems that copies of this software are really difficult to find, > but a complete copy > >>> was available on the latrobe ftp DEC Rainbow archive... which > disappeared with all valuable data... > >>> Anybody has a copy of the content before the deletion? > >> > >> I’m sure the archive would have been set up by Paul Nankervis who I > used to work with at La Trobe. I’ll see if he still has the original > copies. > > > > I have a bunch of disks for my Rainbow labeled Windows 1.0 if there's > > no archives that have them. > > All the online archives seem to have a bogus copy, that's a mix of > VAXmate and Rainwbow files and it doesn't work. > > So I discovered I have a copy that isn't in the archives. I've > uploaded it. Details in my blog entry > http://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2017/05/rainbow-100-windows-10-disks-redux.html > about things. At least one member has these files and is trying to > make them work. Since I don't have Graphics Adapter, I've not worried > too much about them... But I've had them in my collection since I > think 2001... > > Warner >
Re: Re: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts
Thank you! Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check them out for Terry. Experience always beats speculation: On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote: First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2 aka RX02. RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track PC can read them. RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is totally unreadable with any LSI controller. It uses FM headers to confuse the act. To read that you need: - RX02 and a compatible system. - one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300 family chips) in a DEC box (and cpu). -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC. Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8" SSSD). It can also read and write RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01. RX02 format was unique to DEC and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware compatible controllers. First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the second. Then the possible 8" ODS formats are DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit formatting). The PDP-11 group RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common. Note PDT150 is also PDP-11 RX01. This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks. The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over time. VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode. It is PDP11 and RX01 media. Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any format compatible with the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target. I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for the VAX78x family as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive. To do that it had to have a unibus RX controller and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had utilities for most all the PDP11 formats. Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode. Microvax and later machine did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot sequence. In those cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax (not a supported config) assembled as a hack. Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5") as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later firmware supported 5.25" Teac and 3.5" Sony drives as well. RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50 and 3.5" Sony drives. Because of this and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used. The RQDX controllers could do the stated floppies even is MFM disks were not connected. Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media. in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough. IF RX02 a pdp11 and RX02(or third party equivalent) makes it easy.To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux reader, 765 and later clones cannot. How do I know. I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX, uVAX2000, and 3100 family). I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode and a CP/M utility that knew RT11 format. IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to RX01 media using FIT or other tools. Allison
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
>The 'RX02' format used by PUTR is actually IBM System 34 format, >since DEC's 8" DD disks use a strange combination of SD headers >with non-standard ID marks, and DD data fields, that can't be >accessed with a standard PC FDC regardless of the software used." Right. It's definitely a possibility then. Thanks Terry
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 5/4/2017 6:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX. Interestingly PUTR, does seem to accommodate this, and the kind of system I have set up (i.e. 1.2 MB 5.25 inch in CMOS even though it's an 8 inch drive). If you'll have a look at the PUTR manual, it says on page 1, "The 'RX02' format used by PUTR is actually IBM System 34 format, since DEC's 8" DD disks use a strange combination of SD headers with non-standard ID marks, and DD data fields, that can't be accessed with a standard PC FDC regardless of the software used." - J.
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
>If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to >read the disks with any commodity floppy controller. You will, however, >get the sector ID headers. >DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in >single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded >in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid >conflict with similar patterns in the headers. Thanks Chuck Hmm...I'll do some more checking with IMD and Anadisk tonight. I haven't looked at this disks in Anadisk yet. IMD did recognise some things...maybe it was the Sector ID headers. Even if I can't get anything off, I'm now very curious as to exactly what I'm dealing with. Terry On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 05/04/2017 04:30 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > > On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > >>> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a > >>> 11/780? > >> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console. > > > > And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't > > believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely > > with a VAX. > > If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to > read the disks with any commodity floppy controller. You will, however, > get the sector ID headers. > > DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in > single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded > in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid > conflict with similar patterns in the headers. > > A catweasel will work just fine--and there's code out there to handle it. > > --Chuck > > > > >
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 05/04/2017 04:30 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: >>> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a >>> 11/780? >> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console. > > And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't > believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely > with a VAX. If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to read the disks with any commodity floppy controller. You will, however, get the sector ID headers. DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid conflict with similar patterns in the headers. A catweasel will work just fine--and there's code out there to handle it. --Chuck
Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On May 4, 2017 3:30 PM, "Terry Stewart via cctalk" wrote: >Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2) >Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides? >If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content within sectors to get more clues about what's there. Thanks Fred, Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried. Couldn't do it at all. Tons of errors, no tracks could be read. IMD didn't recognise the layout at all. All the disks I tried were like this. Terry If they are DEC RX02 format you won't be able to read them on any standard PC hardware.
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
>And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX. Interestingly PUTR, does seem to accommodate this, and the kind of system I have set up (i.e. 1.2 MB 5.25 inch in CMOS even though it's an 8 inch drive). From the readme file... "SET x: type Sets the drive type for one of the four possible PC floppy drives A:-D: (note that actual PCs rarely have more than one or two floppy drives). The type must be RX01, RX02, RX03, RX50, RX33, RX24, RX23, or RX26. The default value for each drive is whatever was stored in CMOS memory by the ROM BIOS setup utility. This command may be useful when the drive types stored in CMOS RAM are incorrect for some reason. It's also helpful when an 8" drive, or a real DEC RX50 drive, has been attached to the PC using a D Bit "FDADAP" adapter, or something equivalent. There is no standard for representing these drive types in CMOS RAM. Using real RX50 drives (or other 300 RPM quad-density drives such as the Tandon TM100-3 and TM100-4) is different from RX33s (which is what PUTR calls regular PC 1.2 MB drives) because the motor speed is slower, so the FDC chip must be programmed for a lower data rate to match." I didn't spend too much time on PUTR as it seemed to be more for the older DEC OSs rather than Vax VMS. VMS wasn't mentioned as an option in PUTR which is why I spent more time experimenting with ODS2, which was VAX specific. And...as I said, PUTR tries to figure out what DEC OS (if any) is on the disk and failed to find one. Maybe I should play around with the switches in PUTR more before I give up though Terry
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780? There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console. And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX. - J.
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
>If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780? There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console. >Or they could just be disks used for data exchange. They would be in another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2. Thanks Jerry, No one actually knows. Attached to the front of the disks cover (on printout paper) is a listing of the directory showing files. Some commands to get that directory are also shown. I also tried to examine this disks in pure MSDOS using PUTR V2.01, a DEC File Transfer Program by John Wilson. It interrogated the drive for a recognisable DEC OS, but couldn't find one. Interestingly, I was able to format/initialise a blank 8 inch disk in the DEC format I tried (I think it was OS/8) using this program, then mount it successfully. This is why I think at least the hardware is working ok. Cheers Terry On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780? > There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console. > > Or they could just be disks used for data exchange. They would be in > another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2. > > Jerry Weiss > j...@ieee.org > > > > On May 4, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Hi guys, > > > > Just tying up some unfinished business. Right at the beginning of this > > thread I said... > > > >> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 > > inch floppy disks. > >> They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them. > >> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the > software > > was used to write the files. > >> They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely. > > > > Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some > > experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go. > > > > It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, > I > > scoured the Internet for something that might read them. > > > > …... > > Any comments most welcome. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Terry > > > > > >
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780? There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console. Or they could just be disks used for data exchange. They would be in another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2. Jerry Weiss j...@ieee.org > On May 4, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk > wrote: > > Hi guys, > > Just tying up some unfinished business. Right at the beginning of this > thread I said... > >> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 > inch floppy disks. >> They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them. >> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software > was used to write the files. >> They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely. > > Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some > experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go. > > It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I > scoured the Internet for something that might read them. > > …... > Any comments most welcome. > > Thanks! > > Terry
Re:sks. Any thoughts
Does your system handle single density? (some FDCs do; some don't) On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: Oh, yes it does. Well, there went THAT hope. There exist other encoding formats, besides WD/IBM style FM and MFM. (GCR, MMFM, and dozens of others) If IMD (which seems capable of whatever the NEC FDC can dish out) can't see what is on there, then probably the next step would have to be analysis of a flux-transition read.
Re: Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
>Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
>I think that Dave has a utility to test that.
Yes, quite capable. It passes Dave's test and I have read/written in
single density when archiving other stuff. Archiving my FM/single density
POLY and Panasonic stuff was no problem.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part3.htm
>It is more likely to be successful in 98 ("real mode")
No, this (at least the executable) was definitely designed to be run in
Windows. It tells me so if I try to start it under pure MS-DOS.
>Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central point
option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?
No. That option is out for me.
Terry
Re: Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried. Couldn't do it at all. Tons of errors, no tracks could be read. IMD didn't recognise the layout at all. All the disks I tried were like this. Then, either it is impossible to read with the PC FDC, or we missed something. Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density? I think that Dave has a utility to test that. Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central point option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?
Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
>Does your system handle single density? (some FDCs do; some don't) Oh, yes it does.
Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
>Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2) >Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides? >If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content within sectors to get more clues about what's there. Thanks Fred, Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried. Couldn't do it at all. Tons of errors, no tracks could be read. IMD didn't recognise the layout at all. All the disks I tried were like this. Terry
Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.
It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
I don't know anything.but, I will point out a few things to look into.
Eventually I found Hunter Goatley's v 1.3 of Paul Nankervis's ODS2 at
http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?ODS2 . This program
"Sector 1 read failed 87
PHYIO Error 500 Block 1 Length 512 (ASPI: 0 0 0)
Mount failed with 500"
Chuck G., does anyone know...
1. What that error means?
so far, only that it failed on what was probably the first sector that it
tried. "87" is probably not meningful to anybody except VMS
"PHYIO" MIGHT mean physical I/O
"500" also isn't applicable to other systems.
2. If it would make a difference that I'm
running the Win32 exe in Windows 98, rather than NT, 2000, XP etc.?
It is more likely to be successful in 98 ("real mode")
3. I'm not sure ODS2 was built with 8 inch disks in mind?
No idea. But, other than NEC PC98, machines generally do NOT use the same
format specs on 8:, 5.25, 3.5
Would it make a difference?
absolutely.
If there are more than one format available, then the read program might
1) ASSUME one of the lot
2) have options to choose
3) attempt to detect what it sees.
Besides ODS-2, what about ODS-1 and ODS-5?
Find somebody who knows VMS, and find out what the options were.
CP/M disks in the 8 inch drive can be accessed and read/written to under
MS-DOS by the machine I have the drive hooked up to, so I don't think
it's a hardware issue.
Does your system handle single density? (some FDCs do; some don't)
4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird
proprietary format OTHER than VMS?
quite possible. For example, they might have, at some point in the past,
used a program under VMS to copy their data to some other format that they
thought might be handy, such as SSSD CP/M!
Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)
Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?
If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.
Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…
Hi guys, Just tying up some unfinished business. Right at the beginning of this thread I said... >Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch floppy disks. >They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them. >They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software was used to write the files. >They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely. Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go. It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I scoured the Internet for something that might read them. Eventually I found Hunter Goatley's v 1.3 of Paul Nankervis's ODS2 at http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?ODS2 . This program reads VMS disks from PCs. The zip had a Win32 executable included. The executable seems to run ok in the DOS window of the Win98 machine I've attached the drive too, in that the Command Line Interface seems fine and I can type and issue commands. However, I've had no luck with mounting the disk in ODS2. The error I get (consistent over all disks) is: "Sector 1 read failed 87 PHYIO Error 500 Block 1 Length 512 (ASPI: 0 0 0) Mount failed with 500" I may have reached the limit of my skill envelope. Before I abandon the task and suggest to these researchers to consider sending these disks to Chuck C., does anyone know... 1. What that error means? 2. If it would make a difference that I'm running the Win32 exe in Windows 98, rather than NT, 2000, XP etc.? The documentation doesn't mention Windows 98, however the program does start to a CLI without a problem. 3. I'm not sure ODS2 was built with 8 inch disks in mind? Would it make a difference? CP/M disks in the 8 inch drive can be accessed and read/written to under MS-DOS by the machine I have the drive hooked up to, so I don't think it's a hardware issue. 4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird proprietary format OTHER than VMS? Any comments most welcome. Thanks! Terry
Re: SimH IBM1130 GUI appears broken
I wrote, last night: > In case anybody here is interested, I've discovered a > satisfactory (to me, at least) resolution to this problem. > > I downloaded Carl Claunch's DMS disk (dms32k25011403.dsk) > from bitsavers.org. . . > > Using this DMS disk (and with the appropriate changes to configuration > files and Fortran decks), the latest SimH Win32 build (from May 2, 2017) > works fine -- the simulator goes into Wait and allows access to the > GUI following a boot of DMS and after a job finishes executing. No, it doesn't after all. By the time I got dms32k25011403.dsk working, I'd managed to confuse myself about which SimH executable I was running. The new DMS disk makes no difference as far as the GUI problem is concerned -- the GUI only works as expected (and as described in the Reference Guide from ibm1130.org) for simh-4.0-Beta--2016-01-07-e8ea427d (and prior) Windows builds (and with no throttling, in all cases). Sorry for the confusion.
Re: Reviving VT220?
I am taking another look at this. In this VT220 there is a "Billion" transformer attached to the side which gives AC to the board via a two pin connector. My multimeter (which is supposedly true RMS) tells me that there is 246v going into the transformer (fine, I'm in the UK) and 40v coming out. Is this the right voltage that the board should be getting? Maybe it is supposed to be 110v. Would setting the switch on the back to 110v bypass this allowing me to try it from a 110v transformer? The logic side of the terminal is fine. I can hook it up to a TV and use it, but there is no high voltage to power the tube. The layout of the board in this terminal is slightly different to what is shown in the block diagram in the schematics, but of the circuit diagram appears to match for the most part. Getting a bit confused here. Thanks, Aaron. Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes: > Hi all, > > A colleague and I are trying to get a VT220 working again as it recently > died on us. We are hoping to set up a few items for the mid-80s > (including this terminal) to show the graduands what it would have been > like if they were doing their CompSci degree 30 years ago. > > It looks to me like the flyback is dead. There is a lot of soot and > there looks like there is some damage to the top of the transformer, > better seen in the second image. > > http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback1.jpg > http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psxasj/sparse/flyback2.jpg > > The terminal powers on and does the usual beeping but nothing is > displayed on the screen. Does anyone have any advice about what to do > here? Are there any sources of compatible flyback transformers? > > We have a second VT220 which exhibits the same behaviour, hopefully for > a different reason so we can try and cobble two into one. > > Any thoughts / advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Aaron.
Re: Ohio Scientific Universal RAM Board GW-OSI-RAM1
On 05/03/2017 05:37 PM, Systems Glitch wrote: > I want to say the only 12-bit work I've done has always been octal > (PDP-8), but 8- and 16-bit has been a mix. I can switch between them, > but it's kinda like using vim and $graphical_work_editor -- you use > vim on a weekend long hack session and you keep hitting `ESC:wq` in > $graphical_work_editor! Sometimes the choice of radix makes sense. At one point in my career, I was reading both 60 bit octal dumps and 64 bit hex dumps. In both cases, the radix made sense. The 60 bit words had a natural bit grouping of 3 (6-bit characters, 6 bit opcode, 3 bit register numbers) and the 64-bit one also was suited to hex (8 bit opocdes and register numbers as well as characters). The only gotcha was that addresses were bit addresses, so that calculating byte addresses with a byte index involved a 3 bit shift and word addresses involved a 6 bit shift. Halfwords involved a 5 bit shift, which didn't work for any common radix. --Chuck
Re: VCF SE Photos
> > Bill, > > The picture entitled Owen_HP-2116C.jpg is Jim Mahaffey's homebuilt > 6100-based PDP-8 clone. I didn't end up displaying the 2116C after all. > > Thanks! > > Kyle Ah. It did not look like an HP, but I figured it was a modified under the hood version somehow, thanks B
Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
> On May 4, 2017, at 11:54 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > ... But, you DO need a true sine wave source, and VFDs do not produce sine > waves, they put out 400 V PWM waveforms that look fine to a motor, but not > good at all to electronic loads. I wonder how true that is. Consider that (for machines of this era) power supplies are probably transformer input, to a rectifier and then a filter. The transformer would smooth out the VFD output pulses, and whatever is left would definitely be removed by the output filter. The only question I can see is whether the rectifier diodes have enough reverse voltage margin to deal with whatever peaks pass through the transformer. (The transformer itself certainly will, given normal insulation design/test practice for power transformers.) If the power supply is a swiching regulator, the details are slightly different but the overall picture is similar. Then you begin with a rectifier, which would have to be able to deal with the input spikes, followed by some amount of filtering. Once past that I don't see any further issues. An electronic circuit that looks at the incoming AC waveform directly would certainly have issues with a VFD, but I can't think of too many examples of that. A KW-11/L is one exception that comes to mind... :-) paul
Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
> On May 4, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 05/04/2017 10:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >>> >> OK, that’s not helping. Here’s what I have (from IBM site planning docs >> GC22-7064-10 and GC22-7069-2): >> 3340-A2 DASD: 2.2 kVA 3-phase >> 3340-B2 DASD: 1.7 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3340-A2) >> 3803 Tape Control unit: 1.8 kVA 3-phase >> 3420 Tape drive: 2.9 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3803) (x2) >> 2821 control unit: 1.4 kVA 3-phase >> 1403N1 Printer: 1.5 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821) >> 2540 card reader/punch: 1.2 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821) >> >> So I have 3 potential power feeds: >> DASD: 3.9 kVA >> Tape: 10.5 kVA >> I/O: 4.1 kVA >> >> For a total of 18.5 kVA >> >> So the several $1000 question is how do the kVA’s map into 208v 3-phase amps? > 18.5 KVA /208 = 88.94 > 88.94 / 1.732 = 51 A > > Since this is given as KVA, it should include the power factor. >> Depending upon how that works out I need to figure out if 2/3 converters >> make sense or just one big one. >> >> My simple minded conversion is to take the 18.5kVA, multiply by 1000 and >> divide by 208. That gives me just shy of 90A. Do I then divide by 3 to get >> A/phase? If so, then it’s 30A per phase which seems reasonable. But I >> don’t know if that’s the correct formulation. > It isn't. See above. A lot of this is circulating current, so the real > power draw from the mains will be less. Still, most likely over 10 > real-power KW from your 240 V single-phase mains. Thanks. So if I want to run it off of one converter, that needs to be able to supply 51A. If I split it, then I would end up with: Tape: 30A DASD: 11A I/O: 12A So at this point it comes down to cost. If I can find one that can supply 60A that’s reasonable that would work. Otherwise I’d likely get either 2 30A converters or 1 30A and 2 15A (if they come in those sizes). ;-) I’ll just have to figure out what makes the most sense cost wise. Thanks. TTFN - Guy
Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
kVA is simply kilovolts times amps. It is roughly a synonym for kW, except that it probably ignores the phase angle. So for resistive loads, kVA == kW but for inductive or capacitive loads, kVA would be larger. 1 hp == 746 W. But when people talk about phase converter hp limits, they are looking not just at the steady state load but also at the startup peak current, which is a fairly substantial multiple of the steady state load. For your application, you probably have some motor loads and possibly some others (power supplies). If they are mostly motor loads, use the steady state kVA spec and convert that back to hp by dividing by 0.746. Alternatively, if the converter has a rated steady state load, match that against the steady state power spec for the machine. The peak current handling of the converter will take care of either motor startup peaks, or power supply inrush current. paul > On May 4, 2017, at 10:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk > wrote: > > Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP? > IBM’s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other > than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP. If I’m going to spend serious coin > on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k…ouch!), I want to > make sure it’s sized properly. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy
Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
On 05/04/2017 10:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: On May 4, 2017, at 8:04 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: On 5/4/2017 7:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP? IBM’s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP. If I’m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k…ouch!), I want to make sure it’s sized properly. Thanks. TTFN - Guy You will also need to get the motor start information, or you will vaporize a phase converter. Another possible approach that a friend is taking is to take three single phase identical UPS system and synch the phases of the three converter output circuits to proper three phase. He's made up one from three junk APC units I've got. I can forward info if you would like on this approach from him. One thing that helps is he snagged and maintained the drawings of all of the APC and other output circuits over the years and has good info on how to pull this off. The quadrature power will be something to deal with on your three phase loads, but you may be able to run quite a bit of single phase hardware directly off of the mains. OK, that’s not helping. Here’s what I have (from IBM site planning docs GC22-7064-10 and GC22-7069-2): 3340-A2 DASD: 2.2 kVA 3-phase 3340-B2 DASD: 1.7 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3340-A2) 3803 Tape Control unit: 1.8 kVA 3-phase 3420 Tape drive: 2.9 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3803) (x2) 2821 control unit: 1.4 kVA 3-phase 1403N1 Printer: 1.5 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821) 2540 card reader/punch: 1.2 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821) So I have 3 potential power feeds: DASD: 3.9 kVA Tape: 10.5 kVA I/O: 4.1 kVA For a total of 18.5 kVA So the several $1000 question is how do the kVA’s map into 208v 3-phase amps? 18.5 KVA /208 = 88.94 88.94 / 1.732 = 51 A Since this is given as KVA, it should include the power factor. Depending upon how that works out I need to figure out if 2/3 converters make sense or just one big one. My simple minded conversion is to take the 18.5kVA, multiply by 1000 and divide by 208. That gives me just shy of 90A. Do I then divide by 3 to get A/phase? If so, then it’s 30A per phase which seems reasonable. But I don’t know if that’s the correct formulation. It isn't. See above. A lot of this is circulating current, so the real power draw from the mains will be less. Still, most likely over 10 real-power KW from your 240 V single-phase mains. Jon Jon
Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
On 05/04/2017 09:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP? IBM’s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP. If I’m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k…ouch!), I want to make sure it’s sized properly. Line current times voltage give you KVA per line. Then, multiply by 1.732 to get total KVA. KW / .7457 give HP, not counting losses or power factor. You don't actually need a 3-phase source, you only need to generate one new phase (although if the 4331, etc. want 208, you probably don't want to feed it 240 V). But, you DO need a true sine wave source, and VFDs do not produce sine waves, they put out 400 V PWM waveforms that look fine to a motor, but not good at all to electronic loads. It is possible that a hefty used VFD with an appropriate filter would turn it into a nice sine wave at lower cost. For multiple KVA loads, that might be a more economical way to go, if you don't mind creating such a filter. (Probably be good to put a transformer between the VFD/filter and the computers, so the line could be balanced around neutral, too.) Jon
Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
> On May 4, 2017, at 8:04 AM, jim stephens via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 5/4/2017 7:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >> Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP? >> IBM’s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters >> (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP. If I’m going to spend >> serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for >> ~$3k…ouch!), I want to make sure it’s sized properly. >> >> Thanks. >> >> TTFN - Guy > You will also need to get the motor start information, or you will vaporize a > phase converter. > > Another possible approach that a friend is taking is to take three single > phase identical UPS system and synch the phases of the three converter output > circuits to proper three phase. > > He's made up one from three junk APC units I've got. I can forward info if > you would like on this approach from him. One thing that helps is he snagged > and maintained the drawings of all of the APC and other output circuits over > the years and has good info on how to pull this off. > > The quadrature power will be something to deal with on your three phase > loads, but you may be able to run quite a bit of single phase hardware > directly off of the mains. > OK, that’s not helping. Here’s what I have (from IBM site planning docs GC22-7064-10 and GC22-7069-2): 3340-A2 DASD: 2.2 kVA 3-phase 3340-B2 DASD: 1.7 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3340-A2) 3803 Tape Control unit: 1.8 kVA 3-phase 3420 Tape drive: 2.9 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3803) (x2) 2821 control unit: 1.4 kVA 3-phase 1403N1 Printer: 1.5 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821) 2540 card reader/punch: 1.2 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821) So I have 3 potential power feeds: DASD: 3.9 kVA Tape: 10.5 kVA I/O: 4.1 kVA For a total of 18.5 kVA So the several $1000 question is how do the kVA’s map into 208v 3-phase amps? Depending upon how that works out I need to figure out if 2/3 converters make sense or just one big one. My simple minded conversion is to take the 18.5kVA, multiply by 1000 and divide by 208. That gives me just shy of 90A. Do I then divide by 3 to get A/phase? If so, then it’s 30A per phase which seems reasonable. But I don’t know if that’s the correct formulation. TTFN - Guy
Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
On 5/4/2017 7:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP? IBM’s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP. If I’m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k…ouch!), I want to make sure it’s sized properly. Thanks. TTFN - Guy You will also need to get the motor start information, or you will vaporize a phase converter. Another possible approach that a friend is taking is to take three single phase identical UPS system and synch the phases of the three converter output circuits to proper three phase. He's made up one from three junk APC units I've got. I can forward info if you would like on this approach from him. One thing that helps is he snagged and maintained the drawings of all of the APC and other output circuits over the years and has good info on how to pull this off. The quadrature power will be something to deal with on your three phase loads, but you may be able to run quite a bit of single phase hardware directly off of the mains. thanks Jim
Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP? IBM’s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP. If I’m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k…ouch!), I want to make sure it’s sized properly. Thanks. TTFN - Guy > On May 3, 2017, at 11:26 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk > wrote: > > Bob, > > Thanks, that looks just about perfect. Solid state, true sinusoid 3 phase, > 30A continuous but can do 140A for 4 seconds - seems made to power a big > bunch of vacuum column tapes. > > Marc > > > > From: cctalk on behalf of > "cctalk@classiccmp.org" > Reply-To: Bob Rosenbloom , "cctalk@classiccmp.org" > > Date: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 10:04 PM > To: "cctalk@classiccmp.org" > Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter > > > > I use a solid state one, an older version of this: > > http://www.phasetechnologies.com/downloads/products/phase-perfect/pt330specs.pdf > > > > Bought on ebay quite a few years ago. > > > > I also have a small Phoenix rotary phase converter, also from ebay. This > > one seems to have unbalanced outputs. > > I believe it is for motor loads only. > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: VCF SE Photos
On May 4, 2017 7:45 AM, "william degnan via cctalk" wrote: I have updated the thread to address comments. I also assigned Alan Hightower to the Tandy exhibit, I had it marked as "whoseisthis.jpg". Thread: http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677 Alan Hightower's exhibit http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfse-5/Hightower_Tandy.jpg Directly to the pics: http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfse-5/ I have a lot of video footage and I am eager to get it mixed down for youtube asap. Bill Bill, The picture entitled Owen_HP-2116C.jpg is Jim Mahaffey's homebuilt 6100-based PDP-8 clone. I didn't end up displaying the 2116C after all. Thanks! Kyle
Re: VCF SE Photos
I have updated the thread to address comments. I also assigned Alan Hightower to the Tandy exhibit, I had it marked as "whoseisthis.jpg". Thread: http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677 Alan Hightower's exhibit http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfse-5/Hightower_Tandy.jpg Directly to the pics: http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfse-5/ I have a lot of video footage and I am eager to get it mixed down for youtube asap. Bill On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 7:39 AM, william degnan wrote: > I will update the reference about the event sponsor etc. As far as the > Robot pic goes, there are more photos of evan's exhibit, link at thr bottom. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On May 4, 2017 1:20 AM, "Earl Baugh via cctalk" > wrote: > >> > Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 08:03:19 -0400 >> > Subject: VCF SE Photos >> > >> > Here are my photos from the VCF South East April 30/May 1. Roswell, GA >> > hosted by Mims' Computer History Museum of America >> > >> > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677 >> > >> > >> Just to clarify something here about VCF South East... the Computer Museum >> of America >> (that's the official name) provides the venue for the event, but the >> Atlanta Historical Computing >> Society (AHCS) actually recruits and covers the expense for having the >> speakers at the show >> and also recruits and organizes all the exhibits of the VCF proper (aside >> from the two professionally >> constructed and very informative exhibits that the Computer Museum >> provides). >> >> In the first year the Computer Museum of America did recruit the speakers, >> but AHCS has >> done it since.And the AHCS has always recruited and organized the >> exhibits for the VCF proper. >> >> Just want to make both of the partners in this endeavour get proper credit >> here. >> >> Earl >> >
Re:VCF SE Photos
I will update the reference about the event sponsor etc. As far as the Robot pic goes, there are more photos of evan's exhibit, link at thr bottom. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On May 4, 2017 1:20 AM, "Earl Baugh via cctalk" wrote: > > Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 08:03:19 -0400 > > Subject: VCF SE Photos > > > > Here are my photos from the VCF South East April 30/May 1. Roswell, GA > > hosted by Mims' Computer History Museum of America > > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=677 > > > > > Just to clarify something here about VCF South East... the Computer Museum > of America > (that's the official name) provides the venue for the event, but the > Atlanta Historical Computing > Society (AHCS) actually recruits and covers the expense for having the > speakers at the show > and also recruits and organizes all the exhibits of the VCF proper (aside > from the two professionally > constructed and very informative exhibits that the Computer Museum > provides). > > In the first year the Computer Museum of America did recruit the speakers, > but AHCS has > done it since.And the AHCS has always recruited and organized the > exhibits for the VCF proper. > > Just want to make both of the partners in this endeavour get proper credit > here. > > Earl >
