date:20170505

On 05/04/2017 07:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctech wrote:
>> And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe
> you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX.
>
> Interestingly PUTR, does seem to accommodate this, and the kind of system I
> have set up (i.e. 1.2 MB 5.25 inch in CMOS even though it's an 8 inch
> drive).  From the readme file...
>
> "SET x: type
>
>
> Sets the drive type for one of the four possible PC floppy
> drives A:-D: (note that actual PCs rarely have more than one or
> two floppy drives).  The type must be RX01, RX02, RX03, RX50,
> RX33, RX24, RX23, or RX26.  The default value for each drive is
> whatever was stored in CMOS memory by the ROM BIOS setup
> utility.
Yes but RX02 uses FM headers and FM2 sectors.  NO FDC CHIP CAN READ THAT.
None of the 765 family or WDC 179x and cousins can.

It was unique to DEC though Intel did similar but not the same on the
MDS800 dual density drives their difference was the whole media
was one recording format either single or double density.

You need a PDP11 with RX02 (or DSD880) or a catsweasel.

I know this as I have the former. 

Allison

> This command may be useful when the drive types stored in CMOS
> RAM are incorrect for some reason.  It's also helpful when an 8"
> drive, or a real DEC RX50 drive, has been attached to the PC
> using a D Bit "FDADAP" adapter, or something equivalent.  There
> is no standard for representing these drive types in CMOS RAM.
> Using real RX50 drives (or other 300 RPM quad-density drives
> such as the Tandon TM100-3 and TM100-4) is different from RX33s
> (which is what PUTR calls regular PC 1.2 MB drives) because the
> motor speed is slower, so the FDC chip must be programmed for a
> lower data rate to match."
>
>  I didn't spend too much time on PUTR as it seemed to be more for the older
> DEC OSs rather than Vax VMS.  VMS wasn't mentioned as an option in PUTR
> which is why I spent more time experimenting with ODS2, which was VAX
> specific.  And...as I said, PUTR tries to figure out what DEC OS (if any)
> is on the disk and failed to find one.
>
> Maybe I should play around with the switches in PUTR more before I give up
> though
>
> Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

2017-05-05 Thread Huw Davies via cctalk

> On 5 May 2017, at 07:41, Terry Stewart via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird proprietary
> format OTHER than VMS?

It has been a very long time since I had a VAX-11/780 to play with but as other 
people have mentioned the format is much more likely to be RT-11 than ODS-2.

You mentioned that you had a directory listing of one or more of the floppies.

Can you scan one (or type it up)? The layout of the directory listing should 
give a clue to the on-disk format.

Huw Davies   | e-mail: huw.dav...@kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne| "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia| air, the sky would be painted green"

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

2017-05-05 Thread Jon Elson via cctalk


On 05/04/2017 06:01 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:

From: Terry Stewart
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM


Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
thread I said...

Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
floppy disks.  They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them.
They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other format
entirely.

It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.

Stop there.

8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.


You definitely can built an RMS ODS-2 file system on the Vax 
780 floppy drive.  I don't recall doing this very much, but 
one time when I had to write a program that fixed a damaged 
master file header, i tested it on a floppy file system 
first.  Usually, VAXes had some much better removable media 
devices.


If you can read the first block on track zero, it will 
probably make it clear what the file system is.


Jon

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/05/2017 10:24 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> If you can read the first block on track zero, it will probably make
> it clear what the file system is.

I apologize for being dense in this discussion, but it's pretty clear
that the disks are RX02 "double density" (I hesitate to call them MFM),
as that might confuse them with the System/3 MFM that's pretty much a
standard) and not readable by any hardware that the OP has.  As far as I
can tell, the donors no longer own a VAX equipped to read them.

The file system used is therefore of only peripheral importance, is it not?

--Chuck

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they are
RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them (myself
being one of them!)

I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing.  Better still, if it was
computer generated scan it and post the whole thng because printout
headers may assist in determing what the disks actually came from.

bill

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 1:49 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/05/2017 10:24 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> If you can read the first block on track zero, it will probably make
> it clear what the file system is.

I apologize for being dense in this discussion, but it's pretty clear
that the disks are RX02 "double density" (I hesitate to call them MFM),
as that might confuse them with the System/3 MFM that's pretty much a
standard) and not readable by any hardware that the OP has.  As far as I
can tell, the donors no longer own a VAX equipped to read them.

The file system used is therefore of only peripheral importance, is it not?

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/05/2017 11:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
> Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
> (myself being one of them!)

Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.

--Chuck

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…


Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
(myself being one of them!)


On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.


This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with Chuck.

Yes, there are situations, where the file system is unknown or not 
understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and then 
let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files that 
they want.   I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade 
through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client a 
giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I concatenated 
the goups of sectors that they wanted)


But HERE, one option consists of doing that using flux-transition 
systems, and probably a significant amount of manual labor.  Does software 
currently exist yet for any of the flux-transition systems to easily 
handle sector reads from this format?

OR
the only hardware (other than "flux-transition") that can read such disks 
also probably runs the operating sytstem(s) that understand that file system!


If suitable compensation could be negotiated and arranged, Allison or Bill 
Gunshannon, for example, could put the disk(s) into machines that have not 
only the hardware capabilities, but are running the exact software that is 
called for for getting at the files, and copy the files.  That certainly 
seems more practical than manual regeneration.



However, since the situation is one of "we don't know what is on these, 
and are just CURIOUS", it is likely that there may not be a desire to 
provide sufficient compensation to whoever might undertake the task.
This one is definitely substantially more WORK than "copy the files from 
this Compupro disk".   Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the 
others to.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.

bill

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 2:47 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/05/2017 11:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
> (myself being one of them!)

Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.

--Chuck

RE: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.

bill

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:20 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

>> Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
>> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
>> (myself being one of them!)

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
> The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
> immediate task at hand.

This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with Chuck.

Yes, there are situations, where the file system is unknown or not
understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and then
let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files that
they want.   I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade
through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client a
giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I concatenated
the goups of sectors that they wanted)

But HERE, one option consists of doing that using flux-transition
systems, and probably a significant amount of manual labor.  Does software
currently exist yet for any of the flux-transition systems to easily
handle sector reads from this format?
OR
the only hardware (other than "flux-transition") that can read such disks
also probably runs the operating sytstem(s) that understand that file system!

If suitable compensation could be negotiated and arranged, Allison or Bill
Gunshannon, for example, could put the disk(s) into machines that have not
only the hardware capabilities, but are running the exact software that is
called for for getting at the files, and copy the files.  That certainly
seems more practical than manual regeneration.

However, since the situation is one of "we don't know what is on these,
and are just CURIOUS", it is likely that there may not be a desire to
provide sufficient compensation to whoever might undertake the task.
This one is definitely substantially more WORK than "copy the files from
this Compupro disk".   Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the
others to.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…


On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.


That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a 
flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option board, 
etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.


Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image the 
sectors, instead of copying the files,  which might be appropriate if it 
turns out that the OS that these were created with is unavailable.   How 
many operating systems use RX02?



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: RE: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…


> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.


On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.


I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/05/2017 12:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with Chuck.

I'm fine with that.  Let a thousand flowers bloom...

> Yes, there are situations, where the file system is unknown or not
> understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and
> then let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files
> that they want.   I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade
> through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client
> a giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I
> concatenated the goups of sectors that they wanted)

I didn't mean what I think you thought I meant.  The immediate problem
is getting data--any data at all.   If you can retrieve every sector on
the disk, then it's just a matter of software to unravel the filesystem.
 DEC filesystems in general are pretty well documented, even if you have
to wade through the strangeness of things such as RAD50 file names.

Yes, flux-transition (e.g. catweasel) tools do exist for RX02
double-density reading and writing.  I've used them in the past. At
least one runs under Linux and allows one to copy dd-style sector by sector.

But first you need the bits.  Without those, the filesystem is just a
useless abstraction.

When I retrieve specialized formats (e.g. 8" closed-caption (WGBH)
disks), I acknowledge that there's a lot of guess-and-by-gosh to
unraveling them as no documentation seems to be extant. I'll always
include a "raw" sector-by-sector image as well as my
interpretation/translation. Similarly, for things like Brother 120K and
240K floppies, I keep the flux-transition recording around for future
reference until the customer signals his satisfaction.

Sometimes the filesystem organization is well documented, but the disk
has been corrupted (you see this with Apple HFS floppies and hard disks
more than you'd think) and you have to extract data without the benefit
of the filesystem structural information, piece by piece.  It's a manual
process and fraught with error.  So you keep the "raw" image around in
case the inevitable happens.

Data first--interpretation later.

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

2017-05-05 Thread js--- via cctalk




On 5/5/2017 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin via 
cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon 
via cctalk wrote:
But I thought the problem was that 
most disk controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or 
Cryoflux.


That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that 
somebody who has a flux-transition 
device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central 
Point Option board, etc.) would have 
to do the sector imaging.


Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such 
as you or Allison, could image the 
sectors, instead of copying the 
files,  which might be appropriate if 
it turns out that the OS that these 
were created with is unavailable.   
How many operating systems use RX02?


In case not everyone noticed, but 
Terry's already given up on this.


It is not necessary to become challenged 
by and read every mystery disk in the 
entire world.  Things that are 
forgotten, probably don't deserve all 
this attention.


- J.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…


On Fri, 5 May 2017, js--- via cctalk wrote:

In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this.
It is not necessary to become challenged by and read every mystery disk in 
the entire world.  Things that are forgotten, probably don't deserve all this 
attention.


We do put far more effort into such projects than they are "worth".
What does doing a crossword or Sudoku accomplish?

Sometimes we learn valuable information that can be applied to future 
tasks.   Sometimes not.

RE: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

All the PDP-11 ones.  The directory listing would give a pretty good idea
which one it was.  I am prety sure VMS actually could, too.  And then
you have BSD and Ultrix on the VAX as well.  Lots of choices.  

Believe it or not, I am pretty sure I can make a disk image from the floppies
using VTServer that would then work on something like SIMH.

Like I said, lots of choices.  And it could all be done for the cost of postage
I would imagine.  I'm retired, and bored, always looking for things to keep
me busy.  Doesn't look like its going to warm up enough this year to do
any work outside.  Snow showers predicted for this weekend.  :-(

bill

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:33 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.

That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a
flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option board,
etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.

Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image the
sectors, instead of copying the files,  which might be appropriate if it
turns out that the OS that these were created with is unavailable.   How
many operating systems use RX02?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

Well, the probably do when your doing it for fun.

bill

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of js--- via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:51 PM
To: gene...@ezwind.net; Discussion@
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 5/5/2017 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin via
cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon
> via cctalk wrote:
>> But I thought the problem was that
>> most disk controllers can't do RX02.
>> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or
>> Cryoflux.
>
> That's right.
> Chuck's suggestion would require that
> somebody who has a flux-transition
> device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central
> Point Option board, etc.) would have
> to do the sector imaging.
>
> Well, or, . . .
> somebody who has an RX02 setup, such
> as you or Allison, could image the
> sectors, instead of copying the
> files,  which might be appropriate if
> it turns out that the OS that these
> were created with is unavailable.
> How many operating systems use RX02?

In case not everyone noticed, but
Terry's already given up on this.

It is not necessary to become challenged
by and read every mystery disk in the
entire world.  Things that are
forgotten, probably don't deserve all
this attention.

- J.

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

And, sometimes we just have fun.

bill

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:55 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On Fri, 5 May 2017, js--- via cctalk wrote:
> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this.
> It is not necessary to become challenged by and read every mystery disk in
> the entire world.  Things that are forgotten, probably don't deserve all this
> attention.

We do put far more effort into such projects than they are "worth".
What does doing a crossword or Sudoku accomplish?

Sometimes we learn valuable information that can be applied to future
tasks.   Sometimes not.

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…


On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

I didn't mean what I think you thought I meant.

correct
I apologize


The immediate problem
is getting data--any data at all.   If you can retrieve every sector on
the disk, then it's just a matter of software to unravel the filesystem.
DEC filesystems in general are pretty well documented, even if you have
to wade through the strangeness of things such as RAD50 file names.


Yep
Sometimes easy, sometimes not


Yes, flux-transition (e.g. catweasel) tools do exist for RX02
double-density reading and writing.  I've used them in the past. At
least one runs under Linux and allows one to copy dd-style sector by sector.


good to know!
I don't anticipate doing any, but I'm glad to see that somebody has put 
such together.



But first you need the bits.  Without those, the filesystem is just a
useless abstraction.


Quite true.
But, it turns out that there are multiple people handy who happen to have 
the machine.  And they could TRIVIALLY accomplish what we would have to 
put a little bit of work into.  If there weren't, then the next step 
would, indeed be to look at raw images of tracks.



Data first--interpretation later.


Although, when I have an "unknown" disk, before I launch a sector editor, 
I type "DIR", just in case it ISN'T anything challenging.  I didn't try 
flux-transition until I failed with my sector editor.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/05/2017 01:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Although, when I have an "unknown" disk, before I launch a sector 
> editor, I type "DIR", just in case it ISN'T anything challenging.  I 
> didn't try flux-transition until I failed with my sector editor.

The hardest that I've run into so far is verifying that a floppy has
*nothing* on it.  Flux transition sampling showed zero correlation of
timings (i.e. SD almost 0.0).   You could use magnetic developer and see
the tracks, but a photomicrograph showed no distinct reversal
boundaries.  Probably DC-erased was my best guess.

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts

On 05/04/2017 09:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Thank you!
>
> Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check
> them out for Terry.
>
I could...  If I had the time and no other competing projects.

I'm far from the only one around with a PDP-11 with RX02 or a
microVAX-II with a
RXV21/RX02 spare to swap in.

The process would be reading the media and transfering to a PC via
serial line at
maybe 19.2K.

If the media is good its not so bad at 500k max.  If the media is past
its "use by"
date it will gum the heads and require pulling out the drives to clean
the heads.
Thats time consuming.  If the format is not as expected then it s a read
and
capture sectors project, more time. 

The key is are you sure the media is formatted as ODS-II?   I'd consider
that very
unlikely as the overhead is high.  Even VAXen could save to small media
with
multiple formats not the same as whats on the big RDxx, RLxx, RAxxx or
RZxx media.
Typical it is likely files-11.

Suggesting to Terry, learn DEC systems.

One or two for giggles maybe, a significant volume of them comes with
cash as
its a time consuming commercial effort.


Allison

>
> Experience always beats speculation:
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:
>> First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
>> aka RX02.
>>
>> RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track  PC can read them.
>>
>> RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
>> totally
>> unreadable with any LSI controller.  It uses FM headers to confuse
>> the act.
>> To read that you need:
>> - RX02 and a compatible system.
>> -  one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
>> family chips)  in a DEC box (and cpu).
>> -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
>>
>> Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
>> SSSD).  It can also read and write
>> RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01.   RX02
>> format was unique to DEC
>> and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
>> compatible controllers.
>>
>> First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the
>> second.
>>
>> Then the possible 8" ODS formats are
>>
>> DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
>> formatting).
>>
>> The  PDP-11 group  RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common.  Note PDT150
>> is also PDP-11 RX01.
>> This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
>> The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
>> 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
>> time.
>>
>> VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode.  It is PDP11 and
>> RX01 media.
>> Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
>> format compatible with
>> the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
>>
>> I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
>> the VAX78x family
>> as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive.   To do that it had to
>> have a unibus  RX controller
>> and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
>> utilities for most all the
>> PDP11 formats.
>>
>> Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
>> Microvax and later machine
>> did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
>> sequence.   In those
>> cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
>> (not a supported config)
>> assembled as a hack.  Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
>> RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
>> as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
>> firmware supported 5.25" Teac
>> and 3.5" Sony drives as well.  RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50  and 3.5" Sony
>> drives.  Because of this
>> and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used.  The RQDX
>> controllers could do the stated
>> floppies even is MFM  disks were not connected.
>>
>> Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
>>
>> in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough.  IF RX02
>> a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
>> equivalent) makes it easy.To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
>> reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
>>
>> How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
>> uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
>> I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
>> and a CP/M utility that
>> knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
>> RX01 media using FIT or other
>> tools.
>>
>>
>> Allison

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/04/2017 07:01 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> From: Terry Stewart
> Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM
>
>> Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
>> thread I said...
>>> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
>>> floppy disks.  They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them.
>>> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
>>> was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other format
>>> entirely.
>> It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
>> scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
> Stop there.
>
> 8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
> end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.
>
> The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.
Not absolutely true!   THe boot system is a PDP-11, however the VAX can
have a Unibus or QBUS (depending on flavor) where a RX02 controller can
plug in.

The likely file system is FILES-11.  But can be "othter", especially if
its a unix machine.

Allison
> Rich
>
>
> Rich Alderson
> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
> Living Computers: Museum + Labs
> 2245 1st Avenue S
> Seattle, WA 98134
>
> mailto:ri...@livingcomputers.org
>
> http://www.LivingComputers.org/

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>
> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>
>
Free beer?!?  No, no,no...

Allison

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

2017-05-05 Thread Terry Stewart via cctalk

>In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this

Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.

>I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing

Here it is:

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg

Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...

Terry (Tez)

On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
> >
> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
> >
> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
> >
> >
> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

2017-05-05 Thread Terry Stewart via cctalk

?Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single Density.
> It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It can't see
any data.
>Could be an RX02 disk as people say

Oh, and sector size is 128 bytes.


On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Terry Stewart 
wrote:

> >In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>
> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
> inclined.
>
> >I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
> >printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>
> Here it is:
>
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-
> vax-disk-cover.jpg
>
> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>
> Terry (Tez)
>
>
> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>> >
>> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>> >
>> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>> >
>> >
>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>>
>> Allison
>>
>
>

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

Definitely VMS.  And looks like RX02 (DEVICE Type DY).
I probably couldn't read it on a PDP-11, but I guess it depends on what
the default file structure on a VMS RX02 is.  Of course a PDP-11 could
probably read the raw disk into an image and then you could  setup
a VAX with VMS in SIMH and get at them.  Oh, and it's not as much
work as it may sound like.  Looks like they are Runoff files.

bill

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Terry Stewart via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 5:58 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

>In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this

Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.

>I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing

Here it is:

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg

Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...

Terry (Tez)

On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
> >
> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
> >
> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
> >
> >
> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

2017-05-05 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk


> On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
> 
> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
> inclined.
> 
>> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg
> 
> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
> 
> Terry (Tez)


Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
are the appendices to some document or manuscript.


Jerry


> 
> 
> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
 I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>>> 
>>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>> 
>>> 
>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>> 
>> Allison
>> 

Jerry Weiss
j...@ieee.org

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

2017-05-05 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk


> On May 5, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk > > wrote:
>> 
>>> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>> 
>> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
>> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
>> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
>> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
>> inclined.
>> 
>>> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>>> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>> 
>> Here it is:
>> 
>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
>> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
>> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>> 
>> Terry (Tez)
> 
> 
> Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
> are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
> 
> 

Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first). 

The .RNO files should contain human readable text.  It no-one has a VAX
with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.




> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk > >
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
 
 On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
 
 I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
 
 
>>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>>> 
>>> Allison
>>> 
> 
> Jerry Weiss
> j...@ieee.org 
> 
> 
> 

Jerry Weiss
j...@ieee.org

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On Sat, 6 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

?Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single Density.

It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all. It can't see

any data.

Could be an RX02 disk as people say

Oh, and sector size is 128 bytes.

Well, yes and no.

the RX02 can do a 128 byte per sector format in FM (single density)

BUT, then it can [OPTIONALLY] replace the content 128 byte FM sectors with
256 byte MFM ("double" density) content, while leaving the FM sector
headers in place.
Resulting in FM headers (that presumably SAY "128 bytes"), with 256
bytes of MFM content.

In addition to the index address mark and related inter sector gaps,
(check out P7 of:
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/SA8xx/50664-0_SA800_801_Theory_of_Operations_Apr76.pdf
each header would have an ID Address Mark, the cylinder number, the head
number, the sector number, and the sector size (0 for 128, 1 for 256, 2 for 512, 3 for 1024,
but in THIS case, it seems to refer to the space provided rather than the
actual content?), and a 2 byte CRC. After a suitable gap for write
splice, the content has a Data Address Mark, the content, and a 2 byte
CRC. Then another gap before the next sector.
(In THAT exaample, being single sided with 128 byte sectors, both the head
number and sector size are listed as zeroes)

Bill deserves a beer just for his offer to help.

Allison's expertise is worth more than we could afford to pay for.

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

2017-05-05 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk

As far as RX02 formatted 8-inch floppies go, I have some original DEC
RT-11 V05.01 RX02 format distribution floppies which I managed to dump
to disk images a few years ago. I forget exactly how I did it now.

It was either with a real DEC RX02 drive and an M8029 RXV21 controller
in a Q-Bus PDP-11 system, or with an Scientific Micro Systems SMS1000
which has an RX02 compatible disk controller on its main "foundation
module" for a standard TM848-2E floppy drive.

Then I booted 2.11BSD on one of the two PDP-11 systems and simply used
"dd" to dump all of the floppy sectors to image files, then used ftp
to get the image files out to a modern system. Fortunately I didn't
have to deal with any bad sectors. Not sure how that would have
complicated things if I did.

Next to use those floppy image files with SIMH I had to reshuffle the
sector order into new image files copies. The RX02 driver in software
does a 2:1 sector interleave, a 6 sector per track skew, and starts at
track 1 and wraps around to track 0, which had to be undone.

(See the "raxfactr" routine in the 2.11BSC source file src/sys/pdpuba/rx.c)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/05/2017 03:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
>> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.
>
> That's right.
> Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a
> flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option
> board, etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.
>
> Well, or, . . .
> somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image
> the sectors, instead of copying the files,  which might be appropriate
> if it turns out that the OS that these were created with is
> unavailable.   How many operating systems use RX02?
>
>
In the PDP-8 realm not less than two maybe others.
In the PDP-10 realm not less than a handful Tops10. ITC, more.
In the PDP-11 realm not less than four, RT11, RSTS, RSX11, TSX-11,
unix(several) and XXDP come to mind.
In the VAX realm not less than 3 come to mind, VMS, VAX-RT, Ultrix,
Unix, Others?

Different version may have also added variations.

Allison

> -- 
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…