RE: DEC H9xx rack parts needed

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

or find some one with a brown and sharpe... screw machine...  keep them 
employed!

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Friday, September 15, 2017 Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
wrote:
Hi, does anyone have any spare "pivot bushings" for the DEC H9xx series
cabinets (H950, H960, etc)? (These are the short pieces with a conical top
which fit over the hinge pins, at the bottom.) I need at least one to hang a
back door which I have.

If nobody has any, they'd be easy to machine, so I might look into having a
run made by some local machinists. (I do have a lathe, but have little lathe
experience, so machining one of those myself is probably out of my range.) If
it's someone with a CNC lathe/etc, I could probably get more made for little
more than materials cost. If none turn up in response to this, I'll ask on the
list about interest before I set off to find a machinist.

I could also use some more of the pins (particularly the kind with the hole
drilled through them to take a roll pin), if anyone has any of those spare.

Thanks!

Noel

BitNET (Was: RE: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts)

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

While all this talk of the ARPANet is cool and brings back some
fine memories, what about BitNET?  Anyone here remember it?
Any chance someone has a copy of the source for a BitNET Node?
I have seen UUCPNet and DECNet revived.  It might be fun to bring
BitNET back up for sentimental reasons.

bill

RE: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 3:40 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

On 9/15/17 12:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> I recall that he was a bit of a pompous a** on his Usenet postings, but
> you have to realize that the tenor of online conversation was very

My one interaction with him was at a Hackers. insert DRUNKEN between
pompous and a**



I never had an exchange with him on USENET but then I would have
been in the tech groups and he would never have been there.  Of
course, I probably wold have kill filed him real quick anyway. :-)

bill

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 9/15/2017 2:25 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:

  (~mid-80s, well before opening of the 'net to public access), some 
guy-off-the-street came into the uni. comp sci department wanting a connection 
to the arpa/internet
I had to finesse my way onto the internet pre Software Tool and Die.  I 
was one of their earlier customers, and still use j...@world.std.com as 
my main "reach me forever" email.  It's been around as long as I have on 
the internet.


I had access thru people letting me play before that and before that 
though it was not on the internet was happy to play with Multics @ USL 
for probably 10 years, up to shutdown of the system.  Also had dialup to 
TSO at the University of Missouri Columbia, courtesy of the materials 
research department.


Neither site was Arpanet, and I didn't have to keep quiet about it for 
any reason other than people shared accounts with me, and you didn't 
share that information.


I have not had time to read about Pournelle, will be interested.

While people are tuned into Arpanet, I noticed that UCSD had some 
Microdata 800s on Arpanet.  I'd be interested if anyone here was on, or 
knows anyone who would recall it.  I can produce diagrams, but would 
like to know who put them in and what they did.  Looked like smart 
controllers between the network and devices and a 360/65.


thanks
Jim

DEC H9xx rack parts needed

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

Hi, does anyone have any spare "pivot bushings" for the DEC H9xx series
cabinets (H950, H960, etc)? (These are the short pieces with a conical top
which fit over the hinge pins, at the bottom.) I need at least one to hang a
back door which I have.

If nobody has any, they'd be easy to machine, so I might look into having a
run made by some local machinists.  (I do have a lathe, but have little lathe
experience, so machining one of those myself is probably out of my range.)  If
it's someone with a CNC lathe/etc, I could probably get more made for little
more than materials cost. If none turn up in response to this, I'll ask on the
list about interest before I set off to find a machinist.

I could also use some more of the pins (particularly the kind with the hole
drilled through them to take a roll pin), if anyone has any of those spare.

Thanks!

Noel

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

> I used to read his column for its humor value but I always thought
> of him as an idiot as far as comuters were concerned.

Apparently this opinion is fairly widely shared:

http://www.panix.com/~clp/humor/computers/general/Jerry-Pournelle-parody.html

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- "My inner geek can beat up your inner geek." ---

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2017-Sep-12, at 9:47 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
>>  wrote:
>>> He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular
>> hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)
>> 
>> Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
>> the story of that.
>> 
> 
> http://www.stormtiger.org/bob/humor/pournell/story.html


The story reminds me of an incident around the same time (~mid-80s, well before 
opening of the 'net to public access), some guy-off-the-street came into the 
uni. comp sci department wanting a connection to the arpa/internet.
I wasn't directly involved but as I heard it his attitude wasn't merely asking 
but leaning somewhere towards demanding.
He was shown the door.

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 9/15/17 12:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> I recall that he was a bit of a pompous a** on his Usenet postings, but
> you have to realize that the tenor of online conversation was very

My one interaction with him was at a Hackers. insert DRUNKEN between
pompous and a**

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/15/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

> Never understood why Byte kept him around, unless for his humor
> value.  And, even being a long time SciFi fan I didn't like his books
> either.

I recall that he was a bit of a pompous a** on his Usenet postings, but
you have to realize that the tenor of online conversation was very much
different back then than it is today.  Even using a relatively mild
obscenity could get your censured.

I never cared for Pournelle's SF either.

--Chuck

RE: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Geoffrey Oltmans via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 2:27 PM
To: Jim Brain; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 9/15/2017 10:49 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Wow... that really doesn't make him look good at all!
>>
>>
>>> It does not surprise me.  Not that I knew the man, but it seems in
> general, our heroes are more blemished and our villains more redeemable
> than we want to remember or admit.
>
> On a more practical note.  If I were a writer, had an audience, and
> managed to snag an account on the coolest network around, I'd probably have
> flaunted it as well, with the same end.
>
>
I didn't either. He answered a couple of questions or posts on one of the
RoundTables on GEnie for me when I was on there ages ago, but that's the
only interaction I've had with him.  He seemed fairly likable on there as I
recall.
___

I used to read his column for its humor value but I always thought
of him as an idiot as far as comuters were concerned. Never understood
why Byte kept him around, unless for his humor value.  And, even being
a long time SciFi fan I didn't like his books either.

bill

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Sep 13, 2017, at 12:47 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
>>  wrote:
>>> He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular
>> hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)
>> 
>> Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
>> the story of that.
>> 
> 
> http://www.stormtiger.org/bob/humor/pournell/story.html

Interesting, the way they commented on that line from Oath of Fealty.  I guess 
at least some of the people involved *really* disliked Jerry's politics.  Not 
clear that affected their decision, but it's certainly there to be seen.

paul

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk]

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 9/15/2017 10:49 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Wow... that really doesn't make him look good at all!
>>
>>
>>> It does not surprise me.  Not that I knew the man, but it seems in
> general, our heroes are more blemished and our villains more redeemable
> than we want to remember or admit.
>
> On a more practical note.  If I were a writer, had an audience, and
> managed to snag an account on the coolest network around, I'd probably have
> flaunted it as well, with the same end.
>
>
I didn't either. He answered a couple of questions or posts on one of the
RoundTables on GEnie for me when I was on there ages ago, but that's the
only interaction I've had with him.  He seemed fairly likable on there as I
recall.

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Jim Brain via cctalk]

On 9/15/2017 10:49 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote:

Wow... that really doesn't make him look good at all!



On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
 wrote:

He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular

hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)

Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
the story of that.


http://www.stormtiger.org/bob/humor/pournell/story.html

It does not surprise me.  Not that I knew the man, but it seems in 
general, our heroes are more blemished and our villains more redeemable 
than we want to remember or admit.


On a more practical note.  If I were a writer, had an audience, and 
managed to snag an account on the coolest network around, I'd probably 
have flaunted it as well, with the same end.


Jim

--
Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk]

Wow... that really doesn't make him look good at all!



On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
> >  wrote:
> > > He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular
> > hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)
> >
> > Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
> > the story of that.
> >
>
> http://www.stormtiger.org/bob/humor/pournell/story.html
>

Re: Rainbow Disk Imager

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 1:47 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Sep 2017, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 4:05 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:
>>
>>> On the IBM PC/AT (5170) with 1.2M, admittedly the only one that is easily
>>> readily available, there is trivial software tweaking required to
>>> format/write "720K"/"quad" density, instead of "high" density: 300 bps
>>> with
>>> single speed (360RPM) drive; 300 RPM/low density for dual speed drive.
>>>
>>
> No. But I don't know what you mean with software tewaking.
>
> You need hardware tweaks as well to make the drives compatible.  Otherwise
>> the recording strength is too high.
>>
>
> No. Guess why there's the /HD input on the 5ź" drive...


The problem is that while that basically works with older drives, it
doesn't work with newer drives. There were several discussions in the
Rainbow community back in the day about how this drive or that drive didn't
write compatible enough RX-50s.


>
> The problem is people try to write RX-50 media with the HD drives. The
>> difference in recording strength causes many of the retention issues. It
>> works better when you write with the IBM drive with HD media.  This may
>> also be drive specific, as the different drive makers have had different
>> levels of competence with the old standards...
>>
>
> No. The floppy controller switches the recording density (and thus the
> write current) with the /HD line on pin 2 of the 34 pin Shugart bus.
>

It's supposed to be. It isn't always. As someone who helped others with
this problem, I know that doesn't always work. I lost my email from this
time in a disk crash years ago, or I'd name the brands / versions that were
problematic.

Warner

Re: Interlace/interleave, skew, side pattern (Was: Rainbow Disk Imager

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Sep 14, 2017, at 10:44 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> Alternatively, you could leave the sectors in sequential order, but not put 
> each data block of the file into the sector of the same number.
> Thus, you could put the first data block of the file into the first sector, 
> but put the second data block of the file into the third sector, and the 
> third data block of the file into the fifth sector.
> Again, if the time to read one sector is not long enough to process the 
> incoming data, then you could skip two sectors before the next data block.

An example of that is the DOS-11 DECtape layout (which was also adopted by 
RSTS).  It has the blocks in a linked list, and the next block allocator starts 
looking for a free block 4 blocks beyond the current last block.  So, give or 
take fragmentation, you get 4:1 software interleave.  The block numbers are 
still physical numbers.

> ...

There's one other oddity I know of that shows up in the (PDP11/VAX) RX50 
format, which is the non-standard track numbering.  The first track (the one 
with logical sector 0) is physical track 1.  But instead of skipping physical 
track 0 entirely, that track corresponds to logical track 79 (the last 10 
sectors).  I'm guessing that it started out with a desire to avoid physical 
track 0, but then someone decided not to waste 10 sectors.  But I never saw a 
real explanation, and the optimization reasons that justify interleave and skew 
clearly don't apply.

paul

Re: Rainbow Disk Imager

[Harry via cctalk]

On 14/09/2017 17:02, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:

Hi

  I have a bunch of .dsk RT11 400k image files I need to write to 
RX50 disks so I can boot from them on my 11/73


Somewhere there is a utility that will write the images to RX50 on a 
DEC Rainbow 100 under MS-DOS . Anybody know where to find it?


Rod



 Rod,phew!!Are you any  wiser about making the disks for the 
11/73 !! your question has stirred up everything except a direct 
answer?   Chuck has highlighted the same way I have made many disks 
using imagedisk  but not yet for my 11/73,   I guess once I find a rt11 
image to download, I will give it ago myself and see if the disk I make 
will boot the 11/73?  How are you proceeding if at all?


Harry

Re: Rainbow Disk Imager

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017, Warner Losh wrote:

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 4:05 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

On the IBM PC/AT (5170) with 1.2M, admittedly the only one that is easily
readily available, there is trivial software tweaking required to
format/write "720K"/"quad" density, instead of "high" density: 300 bps with
single speed (360RPM) drive; 300 RPM/low density for dual speed drive.


No. But I don't know what you mean with software tewaking.


You need hardware tweaks as well to make the drives compatible.  Otherwise
the recording strength is too high.


No. Guess why there's the /HD input on the 5¼" drive...


The problem is people try to write RX-50 media with the HD drives. The
difference in recording strength causes many of the retention issues. It
works better when you write with the IBM drive with HD media.  This may
also be drive specific, as the different drive makers have had different
levels of competence with the old standards...


No. The floppy controller switches the recording density (and thus the 
write current) with the /HD line on pin 2 of the 34 pin Shugart bus.


Christian

Re: Rainbow Disk Imager

[CuriousMarc via cctalk]

What Chuck says. +1 on ImageDisk. 
I also tried OmniDisk which allows you to do just about anything with the 
formats, including a lot of wrong things. I found it much more difficult to 
use, but it taught me quite a few things.
I made 3 videos on YouTube about it, mostly to remember what I did, this was 
all new to me:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-_93BVApb58SkNrwTjOFJJIZobCLzhzQ
On the 3rd one I go through the process to recreate an HP LIF disk from an 
image using ImageDisk. Easy peasy. I have no merit on this, the author of 
ImageDisk gets all the credits for a great utility.
Marc


On Sep 14, 2017, at 8:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:

Good grief!

All this discussion--about what amounts to a straightforward task.

Get a PC with a 1.2M 5.25" drive and some DD floppies.

Make sure it boots to MS-DOS, not Windows.

Grab a copy of Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk. (on the classiccmp server, if
memory serves).

Use it read and make images of your source disks.

Then use it to write as many copy as you want from the images.

ImageDisk does a "read ID" on each track to get the exact sector
ordering and skew.

Easy peasy--hardly worth more than one or two posts.

(And yes, I've used it to copy RX50 floppies for a customer and they
were very happy with the result.  I think it was for an Air Force
teaching setup using VAXen.One advantage was that I could tell them
just to drop me an email if they needed more, as I had the images.)

--Chuck