Re: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP 10342B

[Marc Howard via cctalk]

Oh I know that. At work we have several different types.  USBee, Total
Phase, etc.  They all seem to have various flaws, the most common of which
is lack of ground isolation in USB based models.

Just seems like a curious omission from their repertoire of post analyzers.

Marc

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:

>
>
> On 5/30/18 7:09 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote:
> > Was there ever an I2C decoder created for the 16500/16700?
>
> Today it may be easier just to get one of the inexpensive 16 channel USB
> analyzers with built-in i2c decoding
> like a DSLogic
>
> http://www.dreamsourcelab.com/order.html
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Modifying microcode

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

> It was my understanding from using the 730 that there was limited
> (really limited) microcode
> enough to load the WCS as the tu58 was a serial device (standard tu58)
> and the 730 had to
> unpack and stuff the WCS.  You need little to do that but far from even
> PDP11 instruction set.
> The Microcode was loaded was the "what made it a VAX stuff".

I don't think so.

There's an 8085 'console processor' on one of the CPU boards (I am
not talking about the 8085 in the TU58, which is also there). This
processor runs a program from its ROM that talks to the console
port and also to the TU58. It loads the microcode from the TU58
and writes it to the VAX control store RAM, and then starts the
VAX runnng.

I can find no microcode ROMs in the printset, technical manual or
on the PCBs themselves.

-tony

Re: Modifying microcode

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 06/02/2018 02:45 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:



On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:37 PM, Alan Frisbie 

wrote:


Tony Duell  wrote:



until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode.



Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not
running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive
rollers,
but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the
microcode onto).



I'm pretty sure that I have a complete set of 11/730 TU58 tapes in
my storage unit.   I might even have some brand new tapes.   If I
can find them, I would be happy to send them to you.   They have
been sitting in storage for probably 20 years, so there are no
guarantee that they are readable.



Thanks... I will certanly give them a go. I am pretty sure the problem
I am having is the tape, I get a low (and varying) amplitude signal at
the output of the read amplifier, it varies with different tapes, and it's
much the same both on the drive in the 11/730 and a standalone
TU58 I have.




Given the vagaries of tape, I'm surprised nobody has made a simple TU58
emulator that can feed the proper microcode bits to the 11/730...

Then again, maybe there's no market for that.



There are TU58 emulators:

https://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/tu58/

https://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/TU58/tu58em/

retrocmp.com/tools/tu58fs

bill

Re: Modifying microcode

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:45 PM, Warner Losh  wrote:

> Given the vagaries of tape, I'm surprised nobody has made a simple TU58
> emulator that can feed the proper microcode bits to the 11/730...
>
> Then again, maybe there's no market for that.

Oh, I think there are. I belive you can use something like an RPi, read
the files off an SD card. It's only an asynchronous serial interface between
the TU58 and the VAX after all.

But I don't want to have more components in the emulator than in the
rest of the CPU

-tony

Re: Modifying microcode

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:37 PM, Alan Frisbie 
> wrote:
> > Tony Duell  wrote:
> >
> >> > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode.
> >>
> >> Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not
> >> running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive
> >> rollers,
> >> but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the
> >> microcode onto).
> >
> > I'm pretty sure that I have a complete set of 11/730 TU58 tapes in
> > my storage unit.   I might even have some brand new tapes.   If I
> > can find them, I would be happy to send them to you.   They have
> > been sitting in storage for probably 20 years, so there are no
> > guarantee that they are readable.
>
> Thanks... I will certanly give them a go. I am pretty sure the problem
> I am having is the tape, I get a low (and varying) amplitude signal at
> the output of the read amplifier, it varies with different tapes, and it's
> much the same both on the drive in the 11/730 and a standalone
> TU58 I have.
>

Given the vagaries of tape, I'm surprised nobody has made a simple TU58
emulator that can feed the proper microcode bits to the 11/730...

Then again, maybe there's no market for that.

Warner

Re: Modifying microcode

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 06/02/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote:
> Tony Duell  wrote:
>
> > > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode.
> >
> > Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not
> > running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive 
> rollers,
> > but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the
> > microcode onto).
>
> I'm pretty sure that I have a complete set of 11/730 TU58 tapes in
> my storage unit.   I might even have some brand new tapes.   If I
> can find them, I would be happy to send them to you.   They have
> been sitting in storage for probably 20 years, so there are no
> guarantee that they are readable.
>
> I'm cleaning out the storage unit right now, in preparation for
> moving, so I'll keep an eye out for them.
>

Ages ago I had a set as well (might still be here somewhere, but I doubt 
it).
I offered it various places and got no takers.  In most cases the 
conversations
merely morphed into discussions about what crap the physical tapes and
drives were.

bill

Re: Modifying microcode

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:37 PM, Alan Frisbie  wrote:
> Tony Duell  wrote:
>
>> > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode.
>>
>> Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not
>> running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive
>> rollers,
>> but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the
>> microcode onto).
>
> I'm pretty sure that I have a complete set of 11/730 TU58 tapes in
> my storage unit.   I might even have some brand new tapes.   If I
> can find them, I would be happy to send them to you.   They have
> been sitting in storage for probably 20 years, so there are no
> guarantee that they are readable.

Thanks... I will certanly give them a go. I am pretty sure the problem
I am having is the tape, I get a low (and varying) amplitude signal at
the output of the read amplifier, it varies with different tapes, and it's
much the same both on the drive in the 11/730 and a standalone
TU58 I have.

You do realise that I am across the Pond, I hope :-).  I am happy to
cover postage and packing expenses, of course.

> I'm cleaning out the storage unit right now, in preparation for
> moving, so I'll keep an eye out for them.

When I moved house 3.5 years ago, it took _5_ large removal
lorries to carry everything. Oh well...

-tony

Re: Modifying microcode

[Alan Frisbie via cctalk]

Tony Duell  wrote:

> > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode.
>
> Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not
> running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive rollers,
> but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the
> microcode onto).

I'm pretty sure that I have a complete set of 11/730 TU58 tapes in
my storage unit.   I might even have some brand new tapes.   If I
can find them, I would be happy to send them to you.   They have
been sitting in storage for probably 20 years, so there are no
guarantee that they are readable.

I'm cleaning out the storage unit right now, in preparation for
moving, so I'll keep an eye out for them.

Alan "Pack rat" Frisbie

Whence 556?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

List:

This is one that's bothered me for most of my adult life.  As you may or
may not know, there were three industry standard densities for 7 track
1/2" tape:  200, 556 and finally 800 cpi/bpi.

So 200 and 800 are nice decimal multiples of 10.   But 556 doesn't fit
that pattern--it's not a "nice' number, being the product of 4 and 139
and doesn't correspond to any computer-related characteristics that I
know of. It's not metric.  So why 556 and not 400, 512 or 600?

There's got to be a story there, somewhere.   I think the 556 density
came in around the 1401/7090 time with the 729 II.

Anyone know the story?

--Chuck

M68020-PGA to M68EC020-PGA

[Carlo Pisani via cctalk]

hi
I am playing with an old Motorola board and I have a problem

As you well know, the 68020 is a 32-bit microprocessor from Motorola,
released in 1984. Motorola also manufactured MC68EC020 - embedded
version of the MC68020 CPU, housed in different packages than the
Motorola 68020 microprocessor, but even in the case of PGA package of
114-pin PGA, MC68020/PGA is not pin-to-pin compatible with
M68EC020/PGA

They both use 114-pin PGA package, but some pins are different, (Vcc
and gnd are placed differenly in the pinout), and you need an adapter!

My board's socket is designed for M68EC020, but I need to use a M68020
chip because only the goldcap version, i.e. MC68020RC33 114-pin
ceramic PGA, is available at 33Mhz.

Code: Select allCPU: MC68020 114-pin PGA [adapter] ---> socket:
MC68EC020 114-pin PGA


Do you happen to know *where* I can find an adaptor M68020-PGA to M68EC020 PGA?
Do you happen to have for sale?

here I am
Thanks!

Re: Modifying microcode

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk
 wrote:
>>Eric Smith  wrote:
>
>>The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS.
>>
>>All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or
>>patch store.
>
>   You forgot the 11/730 and 725.  The KA730 used 2901 bit slicers and the
> control store was entirely in RAM.  After power on it was a paperweight

Indeed. I think others mentioned that processor too.. For some reason the
control store was built from 16K DRAMs, and the CPU has to wait while
they are refreshed every few milliseconds.

> until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode.

Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not
running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive rollers,
but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the
microcode onto).

Incidentally, did DEC ever release any details (flowcharts, source listings,
etc) of the 11/730 microcode? And what about the control PROMs for the
memory system. The technical manual implies there was a listing of those,
but I've never found it.

-tony

Re: Fairchild 9440/445 MicroFlame?

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

BOB  OK  REFOUND  AND  SET  YOU THE PRODUCT ANNOUNCE...  WEIRD  JUST HAPPENED  
TO RUN ACROSS A  FEW  DAYS  AGO   ED#  WWW.SMECC.ORG  
 
 
In a message dated 6/2/2018 12:21:26 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

 
 Bob,
I checked my books, and don't have any of the Fairchild stuff left,
passed em on a couple of years ago. Online, I think I hit the same
ones you are talking about but including links just in case.

I assume you have looked at the 1983 manual, pages 6-51 on with the
notional system design and timing information thera on trailingedge
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/fairchild/_dataBooks/1983_Fairchild_Microprocessor_Products.pdf

And this -
Fairchild 9445

Abstract: applications of microprocessor in printer FAIRCHILD A
Schlumberger Company Advance Product Information PEP-45 Prototyping,
Evaluation and Programming Board Microprocessor Product Description
The Fairchild PEP-45 is a single-board microcomputer for ,
microprocessor. When used with the Fairchild System-I (FS-I)
development system, the PEP-45 board provides , \is to 200 ms
Fairchild Camera and Instrument Corporation, Microprocessor Division
3420 Central Expressway, Santa Clara, California 95051 (408) 773-1000
TWX MICPSNTA ©1982 Fairchild Printed in U.S.A
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/download.php?id=566d28bc51c3e262c0d26285cbc1828375f810=O=Fairchild+9445==

bob

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 10:03 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctech
 wrote:
> I'm looking for manual scans, software, really any documentation of any
> kind for the Fairchild F9440 or 9445 (aka the MicroFlame) microprocessors.
> Yes, bitsavers and a few other places have datasheets for the chips, but
> that's really about all the documentation I've found. And yes, I know that
> they're Nova clones and can run DG software, but Fairchild had their own
> development tools too that seem to have disappeared completely.
>
> In particular, Fairchild had a single board computer for the 9445 called
> (I think) the PEP-45. It had a built in EPROM monitor called PEPBUG-45.
> I'd love to find manuals and schematics for that gizmo. Actually I'd be
> interested in documentation for any systems that used either of the 944x
> chips.
>
> Bob
>

Re: Fairchild 9440/445 MicroFlame?

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

sent  a  mag.  product announcement  over to hare  computer the other  day 
check  with him   for that.
 
 
In a message dated 6/2/2018 12:21:19 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

 
 I'm looking for manual scans, software, really any documentation of any
kind for the Fairchild F9440 or 9445 (aka the MicroFlame) microprocessors.
Yes, bitsavers and a few other places have datasheets for the chips, but
that's really about all the documentation I've found. And yes, I know that
they're Nova clones and can run DG software, but Fairchild had their own
development tools too that seem to have disappeared completely.

 In particular, Fairchild had a single board computer for the 9445 called
(I think) the PEP-45. It had a built in EPROM monitor called PEPBUG-45.
I'd love to find manuals and schematics for that gizmo. Actually I'd be
interested in documentation for any systems that used either of the 944x
chips.

Bob

Fairchild 9440/445 MicroFlame?

[Robert Armstrong via cctalk]

  I'm looking for manual scans, software, really any documentation of any
kind for the Fairchild F9440 or 9445 (aka the MicroFlame) microprocessors.
Yes, bitsavers and a few other places have datasheets for the chips, but
that's really about all the documentation I've found.  And yes, I know that
they're Nova clones and can run DG software, but Fairchild had their own
development tools too that seem to have disappeared completely.

  In particular, Fairchild had a single board computer for the 9445 called
(I think) the PEP-45.  It had a built in EPROM monitor called PEPBUG-45.
I'd love to find manuals and schematics for that gizmo.  Actually I'd be
interested in documentation for any systems that used either of the 944x
chips.

Bob

RE: Modifying microcode

[Robert Armstrong via cctalk]

>Eric Smith  wrote:

>The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS.
>
>All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or
>patch store.

  You forgot the 11/730 and 725.  The KA730 used 2901 bit slicers and the 
control store was entirely in RAM.  After power on it was a paperweight until 
the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode.

Bob

Re: Fairchild 9440/445 MicroFlame?

[Bob Smith via cctalk]

Bob,
I checked my books, and don't have any of the Fairchild stuff left,
passed em on a couple of years ago. Online, I think I hit the same
ones you are talking about but including links just in case.

I assume you have looked at the 1983 manual, pages 6-51 on with the
notional system design and timing information thera on trailingedge
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/fairchild/_dataBooks/1983_Fairchild_Microprocessor_Products.pdf

And this -
Fairchild 9445

Abstract: applications of microprocessor in printer FAIRCHILD A
Schlumberger Company Advance Product Information PEP-45 Prototyping,
Evaluation and Programming Board Microprocessor Product Description
The Fairchild PEP-45 is a single-board microcomputer for ,
microprocessor. When used with the Fairchild System-I (FS-I)
development system, the PEP-45 board provides , \is to 200 ms
Fairchild Camera and Instrument Corporation, Microprocessor Division
3420 Central Expressway, Santa Clara, California 95051 (408) 773-1000
TWX MICPSNTA ©1982 Fairchild Printed in U.S.A
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/download.php?id=566d28bc51c3e262c0d26285cbc1828375f810=O=Fairchild+9445==

bob

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 10:03 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctech
 wrote:
>   I'm looking for manual scans, software, really any documentation of any
> kind for the Fairchild F9440 or 9445 (aka the MicroFlame) microprocessors.
> Yes, bitsavers and a few other places have datasheets for the chips, but
> that's really about all the documentation I've found.  And yes, I know that
> they're Nova clones and can run DG software, but Fairchild had their own
> development tools too that seem to have disappeared completely.
>
>   In particular, Fairchild had a single board computer for the 9445 called
> (I think) the PEP-45.  It had a built in EPROM monitor called PEPBUG-45.
> I'd love to find manuals and schematics for that gizmo.  Actually I'd be
> interested in documentation for any systems that used either of the 944x
> chips.
>
> Bob
>