Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
Any idea what that blue Data General machine was? Some kind of terminal server?
Re: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks?
On 2/17/19 2:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote: I would say the 3174 is acting more as a Terminal Server rather than a gateway. So 3270 CO-AX terminals which are directly attached to the 3174 can connect via TN3270 to another host. Often this is Hercules where Hercules provides a a TN3270 server which is presented to the host as a channel attached 3174... I think we should clarify what "Terminal Server" and "Gateway" mean in this context. I was using "Gateway" to mean going between two different types of networks, SNA / 3270 on one side and TCP/IP / Telnet on the other side. I'm not sure how to define "terminal server". I would think that a terminal server does what is needed to connect a terminal and drive a terminal. I think there's a significant overlap in those two terms and their associated definitions. Please correct me as you see fit. A 3174 can have either a Token Ring or Ethernet interface but not both. (it can also have hdlc/sdlc/bi-sync and bus+tag) The reading that I did last night agrees with that. But I don't see how that's germane to this discussion. The 3174 never acts as a telnet server but. A channel attached 3174 can be used to pass TCPIP into the mainframe and there are products that run on the mainframe that act as Telnet/TN3270 servers. So in effect it acts as a channel attached network interface for the mainframe. Okay. Maybe I'm supplementing a poor understanding of what a 3174 is with what I /think/ a Cisco router with a Channel Interface Processor is. Namely that the Cisco terminates the TCP/IP connection and generates a new 3270 based terminal connection into the mainframe. Note how there is no TCP/IP passing through the Cisco + CIP into the mainframe. Some 3174s have RS232 ports, so locally attached serial terminals can connect to the mainframe. This can be via Channels or via remote network connectivity, SNA token ring, X.25, SNA over Ethernet. ACK It's my understanding that 3174s that connect to channels / ESCON / FICON (via adaptation) are "Local" 3174s. They can have network (Token-Ring / Ethernet / RS-232 / other) interfaces that are used to talk to other "Remote" 3174s. The "Remote" 3174s then connect and drive local 3270 terminals which communicate across the network. It depends on what is at the other end. If you are going TCPIP/TN3270 then normally you use a router. However if you are going SNA over LAN into the mainframe, from what I remember SNA LAN protocols are non-soutable so you need a bridge/gateway. I think we just fell off the end of the continental shelf into the ocean. - But IMHO this is fun. This is how we (I) learn new things. :-D After having skimmed the PDF that Kevin linked to, I've mostly settled on the following: The 3174s speak TCP/IP on the downstream (grey) (Token Ring / Ethernet) LAN / side. (I'm ignoring the protocols across the other circuits that the 3174 supports between 3174s.) There are two frame types that are supported on Token Ring, 802.2 Logical Link Control and 802.2 LLC with SubNetwork Access Protocol. TCP/IP on Token Ring traditionally uses SNAP. Conversely, there are four frame types that are supported on Ethernet; LLC, SNAP, Ethernet v2, and 802.3 "Raw". TCP/IP on Ethernet traditionally used Ethernet v2. So, we have a discrepancy between the frame types that traditionally carry TCP/IP on Token Ring and Ethernet. The easiest way to deal with this is to use a router that uses the proper frame type for the underlying network. But that's /routing/, and not bridging. Hence why my qualm / uncertanty was "routing" vs "bridging". I think it may be possible to have a piece of software / hardware actually /bridge/ the IP packet or TCP datagram between SNAP and Ethernet v2 (and vice versa). But I've /rarely/ heard of that being done. Especially when you have MTU differences between Token Ring and Ethernet that are difficult to deal with transparently. I concede that data is being connected between the two networks much like a bridge allows cars to connect between islands. So, back to your statement. "TCPIP/TN3270 then normally you use a router." Where does the TCP/IP connection that is the TN3270 traffic terminate? Is it on the router? Or is it on the mainframe? Please elaborate on what you mean by "SNA over LAN". What protocols would that be seen as on the LAN client? NetBIOS? Something other than TN3270 over TCP/IP? Are you referring to DLC? It's my understanding that DLC is a point-to-point protocol and not usable on a LAN. I ask because I did not see any reference to anything other than TCP/IP in conjunction with the 3174 LAN interface. I agree that NetBIOS is not routable. If you run Hercules on a PC with a Token Ring card then you don't need anything. How is the 3174 going to connect a 3270 terminal to Hercules running on a PC via Token Ring if not TN3270? Or is that the difference in terms that I was comm
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
At 01:51 PM 16/02/2019 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to pay >them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as I >can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if you >see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them >navigate. > >Photos updated as I walk through, here: > >https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8 That's a lot of visual fun, thanks for the photos. There is NO SUCH THING in Australia. There were still a small number when I was a child (1960-70s), all long gone now. >If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm >interested first until I'm finished today. ;] > >Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon! I see 4 Boxes of punch cards. All blank? https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN-btB2yizsHBmabHb7xtHr_zUWZlS6QENHMHbb-beU6Jf4oNqEABuPoVWamYFUtg/photo/AF1QipP1COpYtcSYKVmiBAZskOJL5yujK8d2561Fepk?key=MmhXdXRtVkhoZkNGODBleGFNeGYza2xvV1BkbjV3 Too bad he wants $25 a box. And it's on the East coast, not West coast near my LA reshipper (to Australia.) And I'm near broke again, after this: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-8594e-spectrum-analyzer-at-last-i-own-a-decent-spec-an/ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/hp-8594e-spectrum-analyzer-repair-%28i-hope%29/ Guy
3B2 Simulator Ethernet - Looking for Testers
Hi folks, I think the NI Ethernet device is ready for some real world beta testing. I have put up a page here with details about how to build SIMH and how to install the "NI" ethernet drivers and TCP/IP software here: https://loomcom.com/3b2/networking.html If you're interested in helping out, you can build the current "3b2-ni" feature branch from GitHub and give it a test. If you run into any problems, I'll walk you through how to do some debugging and get logs for me to look at. If you have any questions or need any additional help, please don't hesitate to email me! Best Wishes, -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA w...@loomcom.com
Re: Dumping contents from MC68701
On Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 15:52 Al Kossow via cctalk it depends on the version of 68701 > > P3 has no protection P5 does > > a P3 can be read with a Data I/O Unisite > > http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr/pdf/MC68705P5_Bootstrap_ROM_Listing.pdf > > The P5 is more involved. You put it into factory test mode, feed it a NOP > instruction > and it will output the rom data on the I/O pins. > > A variation of that will work on other parts in the series. > Thanks for the info! Pardon the naïve question, but will this procedure work for the 701? Not sure the differences between in and the 705. Kyle >
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
> On Feb 16, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > First, my hardware. I have a PDP-11/93 with a CMD SCSI Module and > a BA350 with 6 2GB hard drives. The Module is set up to present RA81 > disks and the first 3 disks have 4 partitions each which should work > out to 12 RA81 disks. (But that last part is unimportant right now!) A real RA81 has 891072 blocks, i.e., it's 445 MB. If your partitions are indeed 1/4th of a 2 GB disk they may be just over 512 MB. If so, your RA81 image is not valid for those partitions. Try shrinking the partitions to be the actual RA81 size, or slightly larger. By the way, another possible issue: the free space bitmap in file SATT.SYS is created at pack format time to be large enough for the number of clusters on the disk. If you move the image to a bigger disk, even one with the same device cluster size, it may be that the number of pack clusters now exceeds what SATT.SYS describes. That too is an invalid file system. I would expect that to give a more explicit error message, but it may be that this doesn't happen in INIT, or not at this stage. Either way, the short answer is: RSTS will object to file systems moved to a smaller destination, or to one that is too much larger. What is "too much" depends on a number of details. paul
RE: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks?
> -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 17 February 2019 16:29 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks? > > > > On 2/16/19 6:36 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > >> As for using telnet on the 3174, I'm going by what I've seen posted > >> on Hercules mailing lists about how others have connected real > >> terminals to the Hercules mainframe emulator. A few pictures of such > terminals connected to Hercules can be found at: > >> > >> http://CoreStore.org/emuterm.htm > > > > I should look for more details. It sounds like some 3174's, with > > proper firmware, can actually function in both directions. > > > > Coax connected 3270 terminals using the 3174 as a gateway to connect > > to something across the network (Token Ring or maybe Ethernet) via > telnet. I suspect this is what a number of Hercules systems are doing. > > > > Guy has this running with a 3174 and ethernet interface. > Jay has it working with token ring. > > I have all the parts to put this together, just no time to work on it right > now. > Mine isn't up at the moment, but I have had it running via Token Ring Dave
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
> On Feb 16, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > let's try with a detailed explanation of what I did that didn't seem > to work. > > First, my hardware. I have a PDP-11/93 with a CMD SCSI Module and > a BA350 with 6 2GB hard drives. The Module is set up to present RA81 > disks and the first 3 disks have 4 partitions each which should work > out to 12 RA81 disks. (But that last part is unimportant right now!) > > I used SIMH to build RSTS V9.6 on a simulated RA81 disk. I wrote the > disk as a file to a CDR in CD9660 format. I moved the BA350 and the > CD to a VS3100 running OpenBSD. I was able to mount the CD under > OpenBSD and see the file containing the disk image. I used dd with > the command given in my original message (and repeated above) to try > to write the image to a real SCSI disk. When I try to boot it I get > the RSTS Message "INIT.SYS not found". The disk was completely blank > to start so the RSTS info must have been copied but apparently not > copied correctly. That message is from the first stage in INIT.SYS. It means the boot loader loaded INIT successfully, because you got into that code and it executed disk drivers and file system code in an attempt to look up the INIT.SYS file. That operation failed. The most likely cause is that your disk is the wrong size. If the system was built on a simulated disk of size x, and is booted on a disk where the controller reports size y, that may work. But if the two sizes rounded up to the next power of two are different, RSTS will not recognize the file system. For example, if x is 500 GB and y is 600 GB, that will be the case. This is because RSTS has a file system parameters "device cluster size" which is device size in blocks / 65535 rounded up to a power of 2. And that number affects the file system layout. The boot loader uses simple LBA addressing so it is unaffected by this, which explains why INIT.SYS was properly loaded by the boot loader. paul
Re: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks?
On 2/16/19 6:36 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> As for using telnet on the 3174, I'm going by what I've seen posted on >> Hercules mailing lists about how others have >> connected real terminals to the Hercules mainframe emulator. A few pictures >> of such terminals connected to Hercules >> can be found at: >> >> http://CoreStore.org/emuterm.htm > > I should look for more details. It sounds like some 3174's, with proper > firmware, can actually function in both > directions. > > Coax connected 3270 terminals using the 3174 as a gateway to connect to > something across the network (Token Ring or > maybe Ethernet) via telnet. I suspect this is what a number of Hercules > systems are doing. > Guy has this running with a 3174 and ethernet interface. Jay has it working with token ring. I have all the parts to put this together, just no time to work on it right now.
Re: Dumping contents from MC68701
it depends on the version of 68701 P3 has no protection P5 does a P3 can be read with a Data I/O Unisite http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr/pdf/MC68705P5_Bootstrap_ROM_Listing.pdf The P5 is more involved. You put it into factory test mode, feed it a NOP instruction and it will output the rom data on the I/O pins. A variation of that will work on other parts in the series. On 2/17/19 7:57 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone been successful in dumping the EPROM contents from an MC68701? > As I understand it, this MCU requires executing a particular program from > external memory to access the internal EPROM, both for programming and > reading.
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
One final note: I didn't get pictures of these, but Kemners has probably 20-25 IBM external 5 1/4" floppy drives, about half of them are 360K and half are 1.2MB. Two of the 360K drives are NIB, wrapped in their original plastic. =] On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 5:37 PM Anders Nelson Well, I got outta there with: > > - IBM 6360, $45 > - IBM 4868-002, $20 > - 10 pack DSDD soft sector 8" floppies, $10 > - Life magazine from 1941 with pretty lady on the cover, $5 > > Did I get swindled or is this par for the course? > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 4:56 PM Peter Cetinski >> >> > On Feb 16, 2019, at 4:43 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> > They have until the end of June 2019. >> >> >> >> Just my $0.02. When I was there last year they said the same thing. And >> prices were eBay level. If prices aren’t coming down a lot I suspect they >> may get their lease “extended”. > >
Dumping contents from MC68701
Has anyone been successful in dumping the EPROM contents from an MC68701? As I understand it, this MCU requires executing a particular program from external memory to access the internal EPROM, both for programming and reading. I will write a utility to dump the contents if necessary, but I am happy to refrain from reinventing the wheel if a solution already exists. Thanks! Kyle
RE: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks?
> > I should look for more details. It sounds like some 3174's, with proper > firmware, can actually function in both directions. > > Coax connected 3270 terminals using the 3174 as a gateway to connect to > something across the network (Token Ring or maybe Ethernet) via telnet. > I suspect this is what a number of Hercules systems are doing. > I would say the 3174 is acting more as a Terminal Server rather than a gateway. So 3270 CO-AX terminals which are directly attached to the 3174 can connect via TN3270 to another host. Often this is Hercules where Hercules provides a a TN3270 server which is presented to the host as a channel attached 3174... A 3174 can have either a Token Ring or Ethernet interface but not both. (it can also have hdlc/sdlc/bi-sync and bus+tag) > I think it's also possible to have (Token Ring or Ethernet) network connected > clients telnet to and use the 3174 as a gateway to connect to ESCON / Bus > and Tag machines. > The 3174 never acts as a telnet server but. A channel attached 3174 can be used to pass TCPIP into the mainframe and there are products that run on the mainframe that act as Telnet/TN3270 servers. So in effect it acts as a channel attached network interface for the mainframe. Some 3174s have RS232 ports, so locally attached serial terminals can connect to the mainframe. This can be via Channels or via remote network connectivity, SNA token ring, X.25, SNA over Ethernet. > > The posts I've seen say one either needs a router to act as a token > > ring to Ethernet bridge, or a PC with both token ring and Ethernet > > cards in it to act as a bridge. > > I tend to agree. My only qualm / uncertanty is "bridge" vs "route". > It depends on what is at the other end. If you are going TCPIP/TN3270 then normally you use a router. However if you are going SNA over LAN into the mainframe, from what I remember SNA LAN protocols are non-soutable so you need a bridge/gateway. If you run Hercules on a PC with a Token Ring card then you don't need anything. > But this is likely the pedantic part of me that knows enough details to think > "Wait, tab A doesn't directly fit in slot B, what gives?" in this situation. > > If the 2513 you have is the one that was used for this, I'd love to see the > config, if it's still on there. That would very likely settle things for my > curiosity. But that's likely not going to happen. 1) The config should have > been wiped before leaving a business, and 2) you shouldn't show it to a > stranger even if #1 didn't happen. > Do a search on "CISCO SNA Token Ring Bridging". Lots of papers on there. Last time I fired this lot up I used the CISCO as an IP router and then used NAT In the CISCO hide the token ring from main network. Now I have a 3174 with An Ethernet card and a P390 with a bigger selction of Oss I have lots of options... ... but I am currently distracted by a pile of VAXen > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die Dave
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
On 2/16/19 7:55 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on an RA81 disk. I > would like to move this to a real disk and try it on a real PDP-11. Note that SIMH always writes disc images in little-endian format, regardless of host platform. If your real PDP-11 expects to see big-endian 16-bit words coming from the drive, you'll need to byte-swap the disc image before writing it to a real disc. (This is necessary, e.g., when copying an HP 1000 disc image generated by SIMH to a real HP disc drive.) -- Dave
