Re: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:57 PM Tony Duell via cctalk 
wrote:

> HP were fond of using NiCds as shunt regulators at that time. The did
> it in many of
> their handheld calculators (HP20 series 'Woodstock', HP30 series
> 'Spice', etc). In
> those it wasn't normally a problem (the calculator electronics drew
> enough current to
> pull the voltage down) except in machines with 'continuous memory'
> (battery backed
> RAM). There, if the machine it turned _off_ the RAM is the only thing
> drawing current
> and it doesn't draw enough to pull the voltage down below the zapping
> level.
>

The should have paralleled the battery with zener with a voltage somewhat
above the normal battery charging voltage but below the abs max rating of
the power supply pins of the chips. They saved maybe ten cents by omitting
that.

MacPlus Boot Disk Needed

[Jim Brain via cctalk]

A friend at work picked up a nice MacPlus but no boot disk.  I have no 
Mac compatible drive options here, so I am hoping someone might be able 
to help.  I believe it can run OS6.0.8 on 800K floppies, but others 
might know more.  Happy to pay for disk, work, and shipping.  Was going 
to buy from BMOW, but they are out of stock.


Jim

--
Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

Re: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 4:44 AM Curious Marc  wrote:
>
> Thanks, I’ll see if I can find replacements. You can easily see how they get 
> zapped: they are 2.5V chips, the NiCd battery *is* the voltage regulator. 
> Charging circuit is a simple diode connected to 5V via a resistor. Battery 
> dies, goes high impedance, somebody plugs it in to try it out and poof! Clock 
> chip gets zapped by 5V.

HP were fond of using NiCds as shunt regulators at that time. The did
it in many of
their handheld calculators (HP20 series 'Woodstock', HP30 series
'Spice', etc). In
those it wasn't normally a problem (the calculator electronics drew
enough current to
pull the voltage down) except in machines with 'continuous memory'
(battery backed
RAM). There, if the machine it turned _off_ the RAM is the only thing
drawing current
and it doesn't draw enough to pull the voltage down below the zapping level.

-tony

Re: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip

[Curious Marc via cctalk]

Thanks, I’ll see if I can find replacements. You can easily see how they get 
zapped: they are 2.5V chips, the NiCd battery *is* the voltage regulator. 
Charging circuit is a simple diode connected to 5V via a resistor. Battery 
dies, goes high impedance, somebody plugs it in to try it out and poof! Clock 
chip gets zapped by 5V. 
Marc

> On Jun 6, 2019, at 8:24 PM, Tony Duell  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 8:57 PM CuriousMarc via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> 
>> All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
>> I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
>> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
>> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
>> all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
>> Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
>> damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
>> it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
>> your module or find some data on the clock chip?
> 
> I've certainly got a working 98035, but I can't remember if I repaired this 
> one.
> 
> The clock chip seems to be a normal digital watch/clock chip. The inputs to
> it are essentially the 'set' buttons, the outputs are the 7 segment lines and
> digit strobes. But I have not found a data sheet on it anywhere.
> 
> -tony

Re: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 8:57 PM CuriousMarc via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
> I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
> all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
> Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
> damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
> it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
> your module or find some data on the clock chip?

I've certainly got a working 98035, but I can't remember if I repaired this one.

The clock chip seems to be a normal digital watch/clock chip. The inputs to
it are essentially the 'set' buttons, the outputs are the 7 segment lines and
digit strobes. But I have not found a data sheet on it anywhere.

-tony

RE: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip

[CuriousMarc via cctalk]

Paul,
It will accept the set time command, but this has no effect. An error read 
shows code 16, "real time lost". The clock chip seems dead, nothing happening 
when looking at the test output after sending the test mode request.
Marc

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Berger 
via cctalk
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2019 1:28 PM
To: CuriousMarc via cctalk
Subject: Re: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip

Are you able to set the date and time on your clock?  I had disconnected 
one end of the diode in the charge circuit and powered the clock from a 
lithium primary cell.  I got all 8s when the battery went dead but when 
it was in that state when I tried to set the date and time any commands 
after that to the clock hung, I suspect because the nano processor got 
hung up trying to set the time.  After changing the battery it 
functioned normally again.

Paul.

On 2019-06-06 4:57 p.m., CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote:
> All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
> I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
> (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
> all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
> Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
> damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
> it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
> your module or find some data on the clock chip?
> Marc
>   
>   
> List:   classiccmp 
> Subject:AC5954N clock chip (I think)
> From:   ard () p850ug1 ! demon ! co ! uk (Tony Duell)
> 
> Date:   2001-08-26 22:55:32
> 
> [Download RAW message
>   or body
>  ]
>   
> I've got a non-working HP98035 real time clock module (for HP9825, etc)
> on the bench.
>   
> It accepts commands, it sends something back, so I think the bus
> interface and microcontroller are all fine. The problems are :
>   
> The real time reads back as 88:88:88:88:88
>   
> There is no activity on the crystal connected to the AC5954N clock chip
> (or at least I think it's a clock chip). Enabling the oscillator
> testpoint doesn't do a darn thing (well, the control/setting latch U7
> changes state so again the microcontroller is doing something). There is
> no activity on any of the pins on the chip.
>   
> It is getting power (it's not a problem with the NiCd battery).
>   
> I suspect the chip. Has anyone come across it? It may be a common digital
> clock/calendar chip, or at least related to one (if it is HP-custom).
> It doesn't seem to be particularly designed for a microprocessor bus --
> the output may be for direct driving 7-segment displays or maybe a
> multiplexed BCD output to link to a display decoder/driver.
>   
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>   
> -tony
>
>   
>

Re: HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

Are you able to set the date and time on your clock?  I had disconnected 
one end of the diode in the charge circuit and powered the clock from a 
lithium primary cell.  I got all 8s when the battery went dead but when 
it was in that state when I tried to set the date and time any commands 
after that to the clock hung, I suspect because the nano processor got 
hung up trying to set the time.  After changing the battery it 
functioned normally again.


Paul.

On 2019-06-06 4:57 p.m., CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote:

All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
(http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
(http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
your module or find some data on the clock chip?
Marc
  
  
List:   classiccmp 

Subject:AC5954N clock chip (I think)
From:   ard () p850ug1 ! demon ! co ! uk (Tony Duell)

Date:   2001-08-26 22:55:32

[Download RAW message
  or body
 ]
  
I've got a non-working HP98035 real time clock module (for HP9825, etc)

on the bench.
  
It accepts commands, it sends something back, so I think the bus

interface and microcontroller are all fine. The problems are :
  
The real time reads back as 88:88:88:88:88
  
There is no activity on the crystal connected to the AC5954N clock chip

(or at least I think it's a clock chip). Enabling the oscillator
testpoint doesn't do a darn thing (well, the control/setting latch U7
changes state so again the microcontroller is doing something). There is
no activity on any of the pins on the chip.
  
It is getting power (it's not a problem with the NiCd battery).
  
I suspect the chip. Has anyone come across it? It may be a common digital

clock/calendar chip, or at least related to one (if it is HP-custom).
It doesn't seem to be particularly designed for a microprocessor bus --
the output may be for direct driving 7-segment displays or maybe a
multiplexed BCD output to link to a display decoder/driver.
  
Thanks in advance for any help.
  
-tony


  

HP98035 Real Time clock and AC5954N clock chip

[CuriousMarc via cctalk]

All HP fans in general and Tony in particular,
I have the exact same problem. HP98035 real time clock module
(http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=168), plugged into a HP9825T
(http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=171), accepts commands, reads back
all 8's. Battery is new, is charging and at the correct voltage.
Documentation says "never run the module without the battery or it would
damage the AC5954N clock chip". When I got the module it had not battery in
it, so this is what could have happened. Tony, did you eventually repair
your module or find some data on the clock chip?
Marc
 
 
List:   classiccmp  
Subject:AC5954N clock chip (I think)
From:   ard () p850ug1 ! demon ! co ! uk (Tony Duell)
 
Date:   2001-08-26 22:55:32
 
[Download RAW message
  or body
 ]
 
I've got a non-working HP98035 real time clock module (for HP9825, etc) 
on the bench.
 
It accepts commands, it sends something back, so I think the bus 
interface and microcontroller are all fine. The problems are : 
 
The real time reads back as 88:88:88:88:88
 
There is no activity on the crystal connected to the AC5954N clock chip 
(or at least I think it's a clock chip). Enabling the oscillator 
testpoint doesn't do a darn thing (well, the control/setting latch U7 
changes state so again the microcontroller is doing something). There is 
no activity on any of the pins on the chip.
 
It is getting power (it's not a problem with the NiCd battery).
 
I suspect the chip. Has anyone come across it? It may be a common digital 
clock/calendar chip, or at least related to one (if it is HP-custom). 
It doesn't seem to be particularly designed for a microprocessor bus -- 
the output may be for direct driving 7-segment displays or maybe a 
multiplexed BCD output to link to a display decoder/driver.
 
Thanks in advance for any help.
 
-tony

 

Re: Palm usage was Re: Modems and external dialers.

[Eric Christopherson via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 2:40 PM Eric Christopherson <
echristopher...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 12:45 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Not sure if this counts as "connected" but I used Palm Desktop itself for
>> my personal scheduling. I never used my Palms (an m505 and a Zire 72) for
>> E-mail, though. It did mostly note-taking, calendar and pharmacy work, and
>> some programming (in Plua).
>>
>
> Cameron, how did you like Plua and what did you do with it? I remember
> downloading it and running a few very simple things with it. I had been
> looking for Python or Ruby at the time, but happened across that and
> thought Lua seemed like an interesting language too. Sadly, I never got
> around to learning it, though.
>

Oops, sorry for sending this out to the list even though I changed the
subject line to indicate that it was offlist!

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Plua - Offlist reply (Re: Palm usage was Re: Modems and external dialers.)

[Eric Christopherson via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 12:45 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > > ...I was never a big fan
> > > of PalmOS, TBH. Too limited for me as a former Psion user, and the
> > > Palm devices were always very tied to a PC -- they were meant to be a
> > > way to take your Outlook (or whatever) address book and diary with you
> > > in your pocket.
> >
> > Interesting view of Palm usage that I hadn't considered.
> >
> > > I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all.
> >
> > Nor did I.  When I carried a Palm Pilot every day, I was using UNIX
> > 'mail' for work e-mail and did all local edits of my calendar on the
> > Palm.  I did backup my Palm Pilot, to my Linux Laptop (I still have
> > backups files from 1999 in an archive folder).
>
> Not sure if this counts as "connected" but I used Palm Desktop itself for
> my personal scheduling. I never used my Palms (an m505 and a Zire 72) for
> E-mail, though. It did mostly note-taking, calendar and pharmacy work, and
> some programming (in Plua).
>

Cameron, how did you like Plua and what did you do with it? I remember
downloading it and running a few very simple things with it. I had been
looking for Python or Ruby at the time, but happened across that and
thought Lua seemed like an interesting language too. Sadly, I never got
around to learning it, though.

(I think my first exposure to Lua was through tomsrtbt, which I ran on an
old Compaq laptop; many of its scripts were in Lua. I think I read that
that let them be compact and still expressive. But after messing with that
system and not knowing my way around the scripts, I forgot about Lua until
I found Plua.)

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

I believe the big difference was in the current-supplying capability on the
+15V rail -- 1A vs. 4A. I haven't had to dig into a 5409730 though, and
haven't looked through the print sets. I believe it was mentioned as an
upgrade thing in one of the technical manuals I'd read some time ago.

It would be easy to make up a new harness to swap one in place of the
other, since the 5411086 goes to a Mate-n-Lok that plugs into the power
distribution board.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 2:17 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > From: Paul Anderson
>
> >> (I also should check to see if the H742 uses the same 15V board; it
> >> uses the same 'bricks', so it may.)
>
> > Didn't the H7420 , which replaced the H742, use that also? The H742
> uses
> > a different one .
>
> Oooh, good catch! The H742 uses a 5409730, but the H7420 does use the
> 5411086,
> the same as in the H765. I always wondered what the difference was between
> the
> H742 and H7420.
>
> I wonder if the two boards (and thus the the power harness) have an
> identical
> pinout, or not.
>
> Noel
>

WTB: V53C104HP45 DRAM

[Ali via cctalk]

Long shot but any one have any V53C104HP45 they care to part with? TIA-Ali

Re: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics) running in MAME

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

just dead on the site associated with the video

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLtron

On 6/6/19 11:46 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/6/19 11:24 AM, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8FWro9sFJc
>>
> 
> http://www.2cool4me.de/
> 
> is dead, dead, dead.
> 
> gltron apparently doesn't even survive at IA unless it moved
> 
> 

Re: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics) running in MAME

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 6/6/19 11:24 AM, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8FWro9sFJc
> 

http://www.2cool4me.de/

is dead, dead, dead.

gltron apparently doesn't even survive at IA unless it moved

Re: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics) running in MAME

[Christian Liendo via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 1:52 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> pretty cool..
>

I agree..
I remember someone ported GLTron as a screen saver for SGI and Mac as
well. Probably my favorite screensaver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8FWro9sFJc

Re: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Paul Anderson

>> (I also should check to see if the H742 uses the same 15V board; it
>> uses the same 'bricks', so it may.)

> Didn't the H7420 , which replaced the H742, use that also? The H742 uses
> a different one .

Oooh, good catch! The H742 uses a 5409730, but the H7420 does use the 5411086,
the same as in the H765. I always wondered what the difference was between the
H742 and H7420.

I wonder if the two boards (and thus the the power harness) have an identical
pinout, or not.

Noel

RE: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics) running in MAME

[Sophie Haskins via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:39 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics)
> running in MAME
> 
> pretty cool..
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E0_qgfGGQ


A while back I uploaded a few minutes of the "ElectroPaint" screensaver 
captured from an Indy w/ a framegrabber. If that's your thing, it's here: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl3mF-wKWgg

Sophie

Re: Modems and external dialers.

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
Wow. I have never heard anyone using one [Palm] so stand-alone. 
Fascinating. Thanks!


I used my Palm(s) completely stand-alone.
I did not "synchronize" them with PC, other than a token backup to confirm 
process.  And I never used it as a peripheral to the PC.
I did transfer a few files back and forth between Palm and PC; for 
example, for a conference, I copied a file with the conference schedule 
to the Palm.


I used the Fossil (Palm-OS) VERY briefly, in the same way.  The watchband 
on it is still new and stiff.



I used Atari Portfolio and Poqet a bit.  AND, when I needed to research 
and learn TSRs, I did so on them!  Poqet was MS-DOS 5.00.  Portfolio was 
imitation-DOS, but close enough that they had implemented the undocumented 
calls that TSRs used.  I wrote the [text-mode] screen capture TSR for 
XenoFont on them.  (For a while, Sybex used the screen capture and 
screen printing routines of XenoFont for all of their text-mode books.

Then, I wrote the XenoSoft Sales Tax Genie on the Poqet.

Yes, I tested everything on CGA, MDA, Hercules, EGA, VGA, 286, 386, 486, 
Pentium.  But why bother using those on 80x86 projects that were not 
performance intensive?  Nothing becomes USELESS just because there now 
exists something bigger and faster.



I used the OQOs (XP) extensively for email and web browsing.  (Before 
Android smartphones)



Until presbyopia did me in, I had no problem with tiny screens, if they 
had enough resolution.  I could read microfilm without a viewer, and could 
easily see the grain in photos.  When the ophthalmalogist asked me to read 
the smallest line on the eye chart, he had to walk over to it before he 
would believe me that it said, "Copyright Bausch and Lomb".  Now, I can't 
even read printed text without at least +2.5



I would hope that the keyboard for Palm would at least use Grafiti font 
for its keycaps:-)


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics) running in MAME

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

pretty cool..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E0_qgfGGQ


Very cool, but very strange at the same time. I guess the MAME people ran 
out of Arcade machines! Impressive!


Wonder if they will ever be able to emulate like Infinite Reality graphics 
with older NVidia cards.


 - Ethan

--
: Ethan O'Toole

Palm usage was Re: Modems and external dialers.

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

> > ...I was never a big fan
> > of PalmOS, TBH. Too limited for me as a former Psion user, and the
> > Palm devices were always very tied to a PC -- they were meant to be a
> > way to take your Outlook (or whatever) address book and diary with you
> > in your pocket.
> 
> Interesting view of Palm usage that I hadn't considered.
> 
> > I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all.
> 
> Nor did I.  When I carried a Palm Pilot every day, I was using UNIX
> 'mail' for work e-mail and did all local edits of my calendar on the
> Palm.  I did backup my Palm Pilot, to my Linux Laptop (I still have
> backups files from 1999 in an archive folder).

Not sure if this counts as "connected" but I used Palm Desktop itself for
my personal scheduling. I never used my Palms (an m505 and a Zire 72) for
E-mail, though. It did mostly note-taking, calendar and pharmacy work, and
some programming (in Plua).

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- If elected, I will win. -- Pat Paulsen for President ---

SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics) running in MAME

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

pretty cool..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E0_qgfGGQ

Re: Modems and external dialers.

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 6/6/19 11:24 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
Wow. I have never heard anyone using one so 
stand-alone. Fascinating. Thanks!


Most of the Palm users I knew, myself included, used their Palm largely 
stand alone.  Almost all of us backed up (synced) our device to our 
computers as a backup in case of device corruption.  Some of us did use 
Palm Desktop as a convenient interface (PIM) to what was on our palms. 
But the Palm was largely stand alone.


I did know a few people that synced with Outlook (and other things).

The person that introduced me to Palms and I did play with network based 
syncing and had it working reliably at work.


I did learn Graffiti -- on a Newton, at first -- but I found it slow 
and clunky.


I found myself, along with a few other Palm users, using Graffiti on 
paper, because it was faster than traditional letters.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Modems and external dialers.

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 at 18:47, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
>
> Interesting view of Palm usage that I hadn't considered.
>
> > I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all.
>
> Nor did I.  When I carried a Palm Pilot every day, I was using UNIX
> 'mail' for work e-mail and did all local edits of my calendar on the
> Palm.  I did backup my Palm Pilot, to my Linux Laptop (I still have
> backups files from 1999 in an archive folder).

Wow. I have never heard anyone using one so stand-alone. Fascinating. Thanks!

> What I used mine for was [...]
>
> The Palm was definitely more battery hungry.

NEC V30 at 7.68 MHz, apparently. I guess it was a more frugal chip,
and certainly a very frugal OS.

Psion *nearly* did a deal with Palm to licence EPOC32 as the basis for
the newer ARM-based Palms. I wish that had happened -- it might have
been a much better deal than what did happen for both companies.

> Eventually, I got a used Palm V to recharge in the cradle.  I also got
> an app to migrate some apps to internal Flash so I wouldn't have to
> reload them when my battery did go flat.

I have one somewhere, but I think it won't charge any more. I should
look into cheap repairs.

> I _did_ like carrying around a 68000-based portable machine in a day
> when laptops were thick and heavy and had abysmal battery life.

I can see that, certainly.

> I
> didn't have a mobile phone for the first several years I had a Palm.
> Later, when I got a phone, it made phone calls and that was it.

Ditto for me.

> Co-workers did experiment with the Palm Treo phone, but that was far
> too expensive for me to consider.

I reviewed an "HP OmniGo 700LKX" with docked Nokia.

 http://www.tankraider.com/DOSPALMTOP/hp700lx.html

That was an amazing device, albeit huge, but you could see the
potential. I loved doing wireless IRC and email on the sofa.

> It wasn't very integrated but I
> carried two devices for a long time (I only upgraded from that phone
> from 2000 (nine years later) once it was obsoleted on the network
> because it lacked 911-location features and it was blocked from
> re-provisioning by changes in regulation in the US market).

Aha. I had a Motorola tri-band TimePort 7089:

http://www.mobilecollectors.net/phone/997/Motorola-Timeport%20L7089

This didn't do predictive text, so I linked it to the Psion via IRDA
and texted from a Psion app.

Then I got a Nokia 6310i:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_6310i

This did T9 wonderfully quickly, but linked via IRDA to my Psion 5 and
later 5MX. I could even make a PPP connection and do email and the
web, slowly but just occasionally amazingly useful. I could also sync,
sort and internationalise my phonebook, backup my SMSes and so on. For
the time, the integration was good.

The Timeport is probably around the time I found myself in a London
pub with a visiting American friend. My friends and I were using SMS
messages to organise when and where to meet. The American commented
that sadly American phones didn't do that and didn't support such
features.

I told them that they did. No, nossir, no way, nope.

So I asked for their number and texted them.

The phone made a noise they'd never heard before and a tiny envelope
appeared above the clock.

They were so shocked and taken aback they nearly suffered an
embarrasing self-control favour. I had to show them how to open the
message. They were utterly aghast.

Probably cost us about $1 each to send and to receive -- years later I
discovered that what drove things like iMessage and WhatsApp is that
American cellphone users paid to _receive_ text messages. This blew
the minds of every European who learned it. We paid a tiny amount to
send them, under 5¢, and only when the few thousand you got for free
every month were exhausted -- but no European network ever charged to
_receive_ SMS. Amazing stuff.

> Because of my background writing code for the 68000, I entertained
> writing apps for PalmOS but I never managed to do more than get the
> SDK and fiddle around a bit.  I never completed a project from
> end-to-end.
>
> So I liked the Palm Pilot, but I didn't have a Psion to compare it to,
> and I can see where you are coming from, from a user experience
> standpoint.

I guess the killer thing for me was the keyboard. I did learn Graffiti
-- on a Newton, at first -- but I found it slow and clunky. Psions
were like tiny laptops that went into a jacket pocket. 25-30 hours of
continuous use on 2 AA alkalines, a daylight-readable screen, a
keyboard you could hi-speed thumb-type on (series 3) or touch-type on
(series 5). Usable held in both hands, or if placed on a desk, the
superb hinge designs meant that the screen and keyboard were at a
usable angle, and touchscreen models didn't tip over. 2 storage slots,
wired and wireless comms, sound recording and playback. Nothing ever
came close.

An HP LX was like using a DOS PC compared to a colour Mac.

Annoying music but a demo of a late-model Series 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlv1naXDYHs

Demo 

Re: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning

[Paul Anderson via cctalk]

Didn't the H7420 , which replaced the H742,  use that also? The H742 uses a
different one .

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:07 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > From: Systems Glitch
>
> > I finally fixed the power supply in my PDP-11/10S ... For those who
> > have original 5411086s that haven't failed yet, you might want to
> > make up a little pigtail with an inline fuse holder.
>
> Congratulations, and a great blog write-up.
>
> The issue you point out (lack of fusing for some components on the +15V
> board) will of course apply to not just -11/10S's, but any -11 which uses
> the H765, either for the CPU box (e.g. /04, /34) or for an expansion box.
> This is important enough that I think I'll add a writeup to the CHWiki
> article for that:
>
>   http://gunkies.org/wiki/H765_Power_System
>
> which restates the problem, and the proposed solution. (I also should check
> to see if the H742 uses the same 15V board; it uses the same 'bricks', so
> it may.)
>
> Noel
>

Re: Modems and external dialers.

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 6:44 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
 wrote:
> ...I was never a big fan
> of PalmOS, TBH. Too limited for me as a former Psion user, and the
> Palm devices were always very tied to a PC -- they were meant to be a
> way to take your Outlook (or whatever) address book and diary with you
> in your pocket.

Interesting view of Palm usage that I hadn't considered.

> I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all.

Nor did I.  When I carried a Palm Pilot every day, I was using UNIX
'mail' for work e-mail and did all local edits of my calendar on the
Palm.  I did backup my Palm Pilot, to my Linux Laptop (I still have
backups files from 1999 in an archive folder).

What I used mine for was a clock, a local calendar, and once I got a
keyboard, a portable note-taker in meetings, plus games and other
trivial apps.  I also got a snap-on GPS and used it when making 1-2
hour flights in a small plane (battery life was an issue on longer
flights since it wasn't designed for continuous use, even with the
backlight off).  And a few times, I used a vt100 app and the standard
serial sync cable to log into and update a Cisco switch.  Thinking
back, once I had that Palm V which could stay powered on in the
cradle, I used an HD44780 LCD emulator to do desktop testing of
LCDproc, an Open Source project I still work with.  Most of this is
odd usage compared to the target market.

> [Psion] ... fit in my pocket and ran for a month on 2 AA cells.

The Palm was definitely more battery hungry.  I ended up spending a
lot of money on an early NiMh battery pack that had a replacement
battery cover that allowed for through-the-cover recharging.
Eventually, I got a used Palm V to recharge in the cradle.  I also got
an app to migrate some apps to internal Flash so I wouldn't have to
reload them when my battery did go flat.

I _did_ like carrying around a 68000-based portable machine in a day
when laptops were thick and heavy and had abysmal battery life.  I
didn't have a mobile phone for the first several years I had a Palm.
Later, when I got a phone, it made phone calls and that was it.
Co-workers did experiment with the Palm Treo phone, but that was far
too expensive for me to consider. It wasn't very integrated but I
carried two devices for a long time (I only upgraded from that phone
from 2000 (nine years later) once it was obsoleted on the network
because it lacked 911-location features and it was blocked from
re-provisioning by changes in regulation in the US market).

Because of my background writing code for the 68000, I entertained
writing apps for PalmOS but I never managed to do more than get the
SDK and fiddle around a bit.  I never completed a project from
end-to-end.

So I liked the Palm Pilot, but I didn't have a Psion to compare it to,
and I can see where you are coming from, from a user experience
standpoint.

-ethan

Re: PDP-11/10 PSU Repair/Warning

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Systems Glitch

> I finally fixed the power supply in my PDP-11/10S ... For those who
> have original 5411086s that haven't failed yet, you might want to
> make up a little pigtail with an inline fuse holder.

Congratulations, and a great blog write-up.

The issue you point out (lack of fusing for some components on the +15V
board) will of course apply to not just -11/10S's, but any -11 which uses
the H765, either for the CPU box (e.g. /04, /34) or for an expansion box.
This is important enough that I think I'll add a writeup to the CHWiki
article for that:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/H765_Power_System  

which restates the problem, and the proposed solution. (I also should check
to see if the H742 uses the same 15V board; it uses the same 'bricks', so
it may.)

Noel

Re: Modems and external dialers.

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 20:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I don't think that my Fossil (Palm-OS WATCH) does IRDA.
> I should find somebody who will pay me money for such a piece of
> crap^H^H^H^H NEAT technology.

Good question. I was slightly tempted when they were being sold off
cheap at the end of production, but I resisted. I was never a big fan
of PalmOS, TBH. Too limited for me as a former Psion user, and the
Palm devices were always very tied to a PC -- they were meant to be a
way to take your Outlook (or whatever) address book and diary with you
in your pocket. I didn't use Outlook or a desktop PC PIM at all. I
used my Psions for that stuff. It multitasked with anything, had a
better richer calendar app than any PC product ever written, was more
reliable than any general-purpose desktop PC ever, and fit in my
pocket and ran for a month on 2 AA cells.

I suspect that one of the things that contributed to Psion's downfall
is that AFAIK they never really cracked the US market, which was
dominated by weird expensive little gadgets that tried to be a tiny,
hopelessly-compromised generic PC in a tiny form-factor -- things
like, well:

> NOTE:
> I consider the OQOs (XP or Linux in a pocket; need to sell off of a bunch
> of them), and the Fossil to be "Classic" even if they don't follow a
> 10-year/20-year/30-year guideline :-)

... like the OQO, the Poqet, the DIP Portfolio, the HP LX and Omnigo range, etc.

In the 1990s and indeed the first decade of the 2000s, it was, on the
face of it, clear plain and obvious that you couldn't fit a generic PC
clone that you'd actually want to use into your pocket, and if you
compromised it so you could, it would be horrid: either it would have
a battery life roughly as long as a hummingbird orgasm, or it would be
a PC with the capabilities of a desktop from a decade or 2 earlier.

So, an early 1980s PC class machine in the 1990s -- HP LX etc. -- or a
1990s laptop in the noughties.

The result was, to my European eyes, a succession of overpriced,
underspecified, clever but undesirable gadgets. And the response to
_that_ was the Palm range, which were just an accessory to a business
PC.

I didn't want either.

The European solution was different. It said: "OK then, we can't fit
the hardware to run a desktop OS into a pocket and deliver a good
experience, so what we'll do is this: we'll fit the best hardware we
can on a budget and with decent power consumption so it doesn't run
out inconveniently fast, and we'll write bespoke software to run on it
to deliver the functionality customers actually need."

The result was first, the Psions.

A little later, in the Nordic countries, the Nokia mobile phones.

Psion's first try, the MC laptops.

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=737=1

Neat hardware, clever OS, but decent PC laptops were coming. So they
shrank it into the Psion Series 3 range:

http://www.retroisle.com/others/psion/series3/general.php

I suspect many American readers have never seen or held one of these
so it might be worth a read.

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/4020/Psion-Series-3/

https://stevelitchfield.com/historyofpsion.htm

The Series 3 had a small screen but an elegant multitasking GUI OS on
an 8086. Optimised for keyboard operation, no touchscreen. Very rich
PIM apps -- seriously, unsurpassed on any other platform. Rock-solid
OS. Only connected to PCs for backing up.

The range gradually got bigger screens and more RAM over the next few years.

Then they realised they'd reached the end of the line fort the
hardware, rewrote the OS in C++ for ARM and did the Psion 5 range:

https://thenewstack.io/retrocomputing-in-modern-times-rediscovering-the-psion-series-5mx/

An Australian assessment:

http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc/m5palm.htm

When Psion saw that the writing was on the wall for PDAs without
wireless comms, they formed Symbian, rewrote the OS to have a comms
stack, and moved successfully into smartphones.

There were some missteps though. The OS was written in C++ before the
language was really ready, and so it went its own, non-standard way.

(The same problem arguably afflicted Be and BeOS.)

There was no standard GUI for Symbian: they led each licensee do their
own, with no source-code compatibility. That was a big mistake. As a
result, there were several:
* UIQ on Sony Ericsson devices
* Nokia Series 60 -- for candybar phones with a numeric keypad
* Nokia Series 80 -- a recreated Psion UI for the ill-fated 7700
series. That's what I bought.
* Nokia Series 80 -- for the QWERTY-equipped Communicators, somewhat
inspired by Geos and the HP OmniGo
* MOAP by NTT DoCoMo -- Japanese market only

Then later, realising this was a mess, they tried to reconcile them,
flailing around with a Qt abstraction later, buying TrollTech to do
it, and other efforts, but it was too little too late.

Symbian had some unique attributes. E.g. it was the *only* smartphone
OS to offer good enough realtime for single-CPU phones, running the