Re: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11)

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

My notes (from sources unknown) say (of the ML11A):

 solid-state (ram) disk; 2MB/s xfer
 1-31 arrays of 512 or 2048 blocks ea
 using 11/70 MK11 (MOS) memory
 looked like RS03/RS04 to s/w


Ok, that makes sense.


http://gunkies.org/wiki/RS03/04_disk_drive
says about *REAL* RS03/04 drives:
 "basic format was 18-bit words
 (for use in PDP-10 and PDP-15 machines)"

But I doubt that anyone would care to replicate THAT feature
(throwing away two bits of each word) on a PDP-11 option!


Well, that would otherwise have been used for Massbus parity. The number 
of bits on the drive stayed the same, it's just that the formatter would 
either format the disk for 512 or 576, then use the top two bits either 
for parity or the last 2 data bits.


The other fun question that I have to figure out is can an RM80 be run 
in 18 bit mode. I'm guessing it can as it uses the same Massbus 
formatter as the RM02/03/05. Need to roll that thing out of my son's 
closet when he moves out and see what happens...


C

Re: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11)

[Phil Budne via cctalk]

> But the sector format is a different matter.  If it's designed for
> PDP-11 and friends, presumably it has a 512 byte sector size.

> For PDP-10 or -20 use you'd presumably want a sector size consisting
> of some round number of 36 bit words.

576 byte sectors (128 words), IIRC.

The unit of allocation on TOPS-20 was a page (512 words).
I forget what it was on TOPS-10: 256 word blocks?

My notes (from sources unknown) say (of the ML11A):

solid-state (ram) disk; 2MB/s xfer
1-31 arrays of 512 or 2048 blocks ea
using 11/70 MK11 (MOS) memory
looked like RS03/RS04 to s/w

http://gunkies.org/wiki/RS03/04_disk_drive
says about *REAL* RS03/04 drives:
"basic format was 18-bit words
(for use in PDP-10 and PDP-15 machines)"

But I doubt that anyone would care to replicate THAT feature
(throwing away two bits of each word) on a PDP-11 option!

Re: microvax/vs 2000 expansion base circuitry ?

[Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk]

Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 6:41 PM Jonathan Stone via cctalk
 wrote:

I've read that there is circuitry in the expansion base (BA40A?) has circuitry 
.  Does anyone know what the circuitry does?  Is it required for SCSI 
operation?  (I hope not, or I'll have to kludge one up to make use of pk2k SCSI 
boot-roms!)

IIRC the DHT32 has a small board in the skirt and the external RD
interface may have a board as well.  SCSI (for a TK50Z-FA, originally)
is just a cable.  The 50-pin connector on the mainboard is correctly
wired for SCSI. It may well have TERMPWR active and not
current-limited though, if it matters to your target.

-ethan

Indeed, Ethan.  TERMPWR is active.  I actually have two 1GB disks inside 
mine (I do not
have an expansion box), and I kludged  a centronix  SCSI connector in 
the back to connect

external stuff.

By the way, if anybody needs the four patched rom images, I can share 
them off-list.


carlos.

Re: microvax/vs 2000 expansion base circuitry ?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 6:41 PM Jonathan Stone via cctalk
 wrote:
> I've read that there is circuitry in the expansion base (BA40A?) has 
> circuitry .  Does anyone know what the circuitry does?  Is it required for 
> SCSI operation?  (I hope not, or I'll have to kludge one up to make use of 
> pk2k SCSI boot-roms!)

IIRC the DHT32 has a small board in the skirt and the external RD
interface may have a board as well.  SCSI (for a TK50Z-FA, originally)
is just a cable.  The 50-pin connector on the mainboard is correctly
wired for SCSI. It may well have TERMPWR active and not
current-limited though, if it matters to your target.

-ethan

Re: microvax/vs 2000 expansion base circuitry ?

[Peter Coghlan via cctalk]

>
> I've read that there is circuitry in the expansion base (BA40A?) has
> circuitry .  Does anyone know what the circuitry does?  Is it required
> for SCSI operation?  (I hope not, or I'll have to kludge one up to make
> use of pk2k SCSI boot-roms!)
>

I don't know what circuitry there is or is not in the expansion base.
Whatever the case, it is not required for SCSI operation.  I have had
no problems plugging one end of a 50 way ribbon cable into the 50 pin
IDC socket on the motherboard and the other end into a SCSI disk.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

microvax/vs 2000 expansion base circuitry ?

[Jonathan Stone via cctalk]

I've read that there is circuitry in the expansion base (BA40A?) has circuitry 
.  Does anyone know what the circuitry does?  Is it required for SCSI 
operation?  (I hope not, or I'll have to kludge one up to make use of pk2k SCSI 
boot-roms!)

Re: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11)

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Paul Koning

> But the sector format is a different matter. If it's designed for
> PDP-11 and friends, presumably it has a 512 byte sector size. For
> PDP-10 or -20 use you'd presumably want a sector size consisting of
> some round number of 36 bit words.

Actually, the -10/-20 MASSBUS situation is even more complicated than that.
The MASSBUS can operate in 16 or 18 bit data width (for everyone else; this
is totally different from the Q16/Q18/Q22 of the QBUS, which is _address_
width), so it can support 36-bit words directly, using two extra data lines.

So for the RP04 and other disks, and their 'controllers' (at least, the part
that's in the device), they have to be able to turn the bit-stream from the
mass storage device into 18-bit wide words. (And they actually have different
sector formats depending on whether they are in 16- or 18-bit mode.)

What the KM11 does, I don't know (I'm too lazy to go look at the TM); I would
not at all be suprised to find that it can _only_ operate in 16-bit mode
(i.e. the array of memory chips is 16 bits wide, and it just ships a line at a
time from that out in parallel, so there's no way to even produce 18-bit wide
words). The name of the device (KM11) adds weight to that supposition.

Noel

[no subject]

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 boot issues
References: <87ilytoikj@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> 
 
<87fstxohuj@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk> 
 
<21789e85-2aa4-3b61-db31-b21fd8c08...@dunnington.plus.com> 
<87czp1obv4@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk>
User-agent: mu4e 0.9.18; emacs 27.2
In-reply-to: <87czp1obv4@carbon.nat.rhwyd.co.uk>


Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes:

> Pete Turnbull via cctalk writes:
>
>> On 21/09/2021 20:34, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>>> Can an MXV11 be used in a 22 bit system? I thought it was an 18 bit
>>> device?
>>
>> MXV11-B is 22-bit.  MXV11-A is 18-bit but supposedly can be used in a 
>> 22-bit system if the RAM is disabled.
>
> Yeah this is a 22 bit card. Josh sent me an xxdp image which I could
> easily boot from my scsi2sd (thanks!).  Seems to be reporting an error
> with the CPU unfortunately:
>
> ]] .R ZKDJ??
> ]] ZKDJB2.BIC
> ]] 
> ]] ERROR WHILE TESTING BOARD FUNCTIONS
> ]] ERROR # =001166
> ]] ERROR PC =040662
> ]] 043632
>
> This happens regardless of whether W9 is installed or not (supposedly
> disables the LTC register on the CPU?)
>
> I'll see if I can borrow another CPU card form a friend this
> weekend. Unless anyone else has any ideas?  Another suggestion on IRC
> was to disable the PSU LTC and enable the LTC on MXV11 but will need to
> look up some details on how to do this.

Had a nice cycling trip this evening to pick up a spare 11/73
card. Unfortunately it did not fix my issues so I'll have to do some
more digging.

Has anyone disconnected the BEVENT line and used a signal generator to
provide the LTC? Curious to try this to figure out if mine is just being
noisy or something.

Thanks,
Aaron

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 9/23/2021 8:12 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 2021-09-22 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote:

Currently the Hobbyist Program covers Alpha and Itanium.  We?ve been
told it will cover x86 at some point.  I for one can?t wait for x86,
as I don?t really want to add an Itanium to run some of the newer
software.

Zane

Not even that... looked at the VSI stuff and it is only the newest
Alphas that are supported. 21064/21164 and, I believe, 21264 are not


The VSI SPD for OpenVMS V8.4-2L1 (the version given with the VSI Commumity License program) 
indicated DS10 and newer.  However, as often mentioned, there is a difference between 
"supported" and "works".  People in comp.os.vms have installed the VSI releases 
on Alphastation 255's Alphaserver 800/1200 and other EV4 and EV5 Alphas.  VSI won't mark them as 
supported probably because they don't have any such systems to test on or just don't want to bother 
testing on such systems.

If you have somehow gotten a copy of VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L2 then it was 
specifically built to support EV6 and newer Alphas.  It will NOT work on older 
systems such as the AlphaServer 800/1200/4100 and AlphaStation 255 series.


supported by any release licensed by VSI, and they changed the PRODUCER
key so you can't use those PAKs on DEC/CPQ/HP variants of VMS.


Part of their licensing agreement with HPE which prohibits them from 
selling/licensing any previous version of OpenVMS that they haven't worked on.


HP stopped issuing new hobbyist PAKs back very early in 2020. I put in
for a renew March or so and never got it. They were so disinterested in
the program that they didn't mention stopping it, so I guess it isn't
surprising that the page is still up.


If it's a VAX PAK you need, contact me and I can send you a copy of the last 
VAX OpenVMS Hobbyist PAK sent out.  Note that it expires on 1-JAN-2022 so it's 
good only for a few more months.



Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I
was always told. Anyway, good system, pretty solid, expect to do a LOT
of typing for commands if you're used to UNIX, and don't put any VAX
with a public DCL account on the Internet because there is a huge
security hole in DCL that was never fixed for VAX.



--

John H. Reinhardt

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 9/22/2021 7:21 AM, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote:

Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help!

I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- a cross 
compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. My goal is to 
get the source code building and experiment with the compiler a bit.

Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how to 
install or use it.

Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make it 
possible to send files to it from my Linux box?

I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available.


That is pretty much it for VAX emulation.  Going with the V4 release stream 
gives you a number of options, but they are all basically the same.



I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've filled 
out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning while I wait.



That will be a long wait.  HPE stopped responding to OpenVMS Hobbyist requests 
around May 2020.  If you email me I can send you a copy of the last set of VAX 
OpenVMS PAKs that were sent out.  They are generic, as opposed to what they 
used to send out which had authorization # tailored to each requestor.  These 
are good only for a few more months s they expire on 1-Jan-2022.  As they were 
generic and the last Hobbyist PAKS that HPE was going to send out we got 
unofficial (from Hari, the HPE employee in India that ran the Hobbyist program) 
permission to give them to anyone that asked.


You don't say how old the software is that you want to run.  If it's VAX/VMS V4 
vintage then you gan get away without the PAKS as that is pre-LMF and PAK 
usage. But then again, V4.7 era is somewhat harder to install and set up than a 
V7.3 (the last VAX version)



Cheers
Phil.



--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11)

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Sep 23, 2021, at 1:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> So I can't say whether they are 18 bit compatible.
> 
> Huh? The KM11 doesn't plug into the UNIBUS (or QBUS); it's a MASSBUS device (a
> solid-state storage device, actually), so it plugs into an RH11 or RH70 or
> something like that. (I should work with the VAX MASSBUS controller, too.)
> So the question 'is it 18 bit compatible' makes no sense.

The addressing wouldn't be a question because the Massbus controller handles 
that.  But the sector format is a different matter.  If it's designed for 
PDP-11 and friends, presumably it has a 512 byte sector size.  For PDP-10 or 
-20 use you'd presumably want a sector size consisting of some round number of 
36 bit words.

paul

DEC KM11 (Was: DEC KL11)

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Mark Kahrs

There's a typo in your original Subject: line: the KL11 is a very early UNIBUS
(probably the very first UNIBUS device ever, looking at the board's Mxxx
number) asyn serial line interface:

  https://gunkies.org/wiki/KL11_asynchronous_serial_line_interface


> manx tells me that these documents were known to exist:
> ..
> But they are not online.

I couldn't find out anything about the KM11 with a Web search, but I did see
that it's in the DEC PDP-11 fiche set. My set does have the KM11 Tech Manual.

I've never heard of the KM11, and as I said, there's nothing about it online.
Is it worth doing a CHWiki page for it? (With the fiche, it would be pretty
easy to whip up one covering the basics: functionality, component boards, etc.


> So I can't say whether they are 18 bit compatible.

Huh? The KM11 doesn't plug into the UNIBUS (or QBUS); it's a MASSBUS device (a
solid-state storage device, actually), so it plugs into an RH11 or RH70 or
something like that. (I should work with the VAX MASSBUS controller, too.)
So the question 'is it 18 bit compatible' makes no sense.

 Noel

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

On 23/09/2021 14:23, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk  
wrote:
...
Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I
was always told.


I don't know how close it is to RSX, but I do know that RSTS (V9 and later) DCL 
was explicitly modeled on VMS DCL


RSX originally used MCR, but later (from about 3.2 IIRC) had DCL as an 
option, and that's where VMS DCL came from.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

DEC KL11

[Mark Kahrs via cctalk]

A few details for the curious:

It's housed in a BA-11 box with 3 controller cards.
The Massbus paddles fit into that box and terminate in flat ribbon cable,
not the massive cables.
The DRAM chips are 4116s.

manx tells me that these documents were known to exist:

PartTitleStatus
EK-0ML11-TD *ML11 Technical Description
*
EK-0ML11-TM *ML11 Technical Manual
*
EK-0ML11-UG *ML11 User's Guide
*

But they are not online.

So I can't say whether they are 18 bit compatible.

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk  
> wrote:
> ...
> Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I
> was always told.

I don't know how close it is to RSX, but I do know that RSTS (V9 and later) DCL 
was explicitly modeled on VMS DCL, including the DCL functions for use in 
command files.  They aren't identical for various reasons, but close, and 
similar in capability.  Another VMS-inspired RSTS item (also in V9) is BACKUP, 
which produces backup sets that VMS can read, and with limitations due to the 
file system differences can read at least some VMS backup sets.

paul

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Scott Quinn via cctalk]

On Wed, 2021-09-22 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote:
> Currently the Hobbyist Program covers Alpha and Itanium.  We?ve been
> told it will cover x86 at some point.  I for one can?t wait for x86,
> as I don?t really want to add an Itanium to run some of the newer
> software.
> 
> Zane

Not even that... looked at the VSI stuff and it is only the newest
Alphas that are supported. 21064/21164 and, I believe, 21264 are not
supported by any release licensed by VSI, and they changed the PRODUCER
key so you can't use those PAKs on DEC/CPQ/HP variants of VMS.

HP stopped issuing new hobbyist PAKs back very early in 2020. I put in
for a renew March or so and never got it. They were so disinterested in
the program that they didn't mention stopping it, so I guess it isn't
surprising that the page is still up.

Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I
was always told. Anyway, good system, pretty solid, expect to do a LOT
of typing for commands if you're used to UNIX, and don't put any VAX
with a public DCL account on the Internet because there is a huge
security hole in DCL that was never fixed for VAX.