Re: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 11/30/2021 6:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote:




On Nov 30, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk  
wrote:

...
The issue is (I think) that the ExpressPCB software can only be used to create 
files to order boards from them - or can it now export ordinary gerbers?  
(Otherwise, to go with another fab. I presumably would re-enter the schematic, 
and re-route it - granted not all *that* hard, but still a day's work.


You're right, they say so in the FAQ.  And it is the reason I don't use them.

At one point I used PCB Pool (Beta layout) because they could take Eagle files 
directly.  But sending boards across the ocean isn't so economical.  And Eagle 
became less and less attractive over time.

My current answer is KiCAD which is open source and somewhat more powerful than 
Eagle (without the hassles).  Both do Gerbers, but there are also fabs that 
take the CAD files directly.  OSHPark is the one I've used for my most recent 3 
projects, they do nice work.  The color is odd, but what the heck, it still 
works.

paul



I have used KiCAD for several projects.  I like it, though the 
developers don't always seem to allow for the pain the cause when they 
make version changes that requires a lot of footprint re-hunting.  ;)


JRJ

Re: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Fritz Mueller via cctalk]

> On Nov 30, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk  
> wrote:
> The issue is (I think) that the ExpressPCB software can only be used to 
> create files to order boards from them


> On Nov 30, 2021, at 4:31 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
> wrote:
> You're right, they say so in the FAQ.  And it is the reason I don't use them.

Oh, I hadn’t realized they have the whole lock-in thing going; that’s kind of 
obnoxious!

> My current answer is KiCAD which is open source and somewhat more powerful 
> than Eagle (without the hassles).

KiCAD is pretty nice these days.  A friend also recently introduced me to jlpcb 
and pcbway, and the prices and turnaround times from both of these board 
houses, even for very small runs, are amazing!  jlpcb will also do assembly of 
many stocked surface mount parts at very reasonable prices.

  —FritzM.

Re: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Nov 30, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> The issue is (I think) that the ExpressPCB software can only be used to 
> create files to order boards from them - or can it now export ordinary 
> gerbers?  (Otherwise, to go with another fab. I presumably would re-enter the 
> schematic, and re-route it - granted not all *that* hard, but still a day's 
> work.

You're right, they say so in the FAQ.  And it is the reason I don't use them.

At one point I used PCB Pool (Beta layout) because they could take Eagle files 
directly.  But sending boards across the ocean isn't so economical.  And Eagle 
became less and less attractive over time.

My current answer is KiCAD which is open source and somewhat more powerful than 
Eagle (without the hassles).  Both do Gerbers, but there are also fabs that 
take the CAD files directly.  OSHPark is the one I've used for my most recent 3 
projects, they do nice work.  The color is odd, but what the heck, it still 
works.

paul

Re: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 11/30/2021 3:52 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:

Van: Fritz Mueller via cctalk
Verzonden: dinsdag 30 november 2021 22:43
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts
Onderwerp: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards



I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban’s site: 
http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html



Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or did you 
convert to more standard gerbers?


I just went with ExpressPCB for minimal hassle, but you could probably get it 
cheaper from other board houses these days.  For my KB11-A + FP11-B, which run 
asynchronously, it was handy to build up two of these.  Also useful for the 
RK11-C.

   —FritzM.

And useful for PDP-11/05, PDP-11/10, PDP-11/20, PDP-11/35, PDP-11/40 … more?
Henk, PA8PDP



The issue is (I think) that the ExpressPCB software can only be used to 
create files to order boards from them - or can it now export ordinary 
gerbers?  (Otherwise, to go with another fab. I presumably would 
re-enter the schematic, and re-route it - granted not all *that* hard, 
but still a day's work.


JRJ

Looking for someone in London (UK) to read 2 9 track tapes

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Hey list,

I received a note today from a fellow in London who has 2 9-track tapes
that he'd like read.  Brands are CDC and BASF, so media shedding should
not be a problem.   Dates are '92 and '93, so likely 1600 or 6259.  The
tape seal on one (the other has no seal) is IBM-style, which may be the
system that produced the tapes.

Any takers?  Let me know if so, I'll put you in contact and you can take
things from there.

All the best,

--Chuck

Re: Looking for tips debugging DEC TC01 controller

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 1:57 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > On Nov 23, 2021, at 3:17 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > I picked up a TC01 in trade (for a TC08) a couple of weeks back and this
> > past weekend I got it hooked up and powered up with my PDP-8/I + TU55
> > transport.  I've been debugging it and have solved a couple of issues but
> > the current one has me stumped and I'm looking for advice, hoping I
> > overlooked something obvious...
>
> Any updates here, Josh?  I’m not familiar enough with 8’s or their
> peripherals to offer any relevant suggestions, but I’m curious to hear what
> you find and how you crack it!
>

After poking at it awhile, a friend of mine pointed out that the W1 flip
flop is set up so it will only toggle once, after the first "1" bit comes
in from W2.  This is actually pointed out in the TC01 maintenance manual
but I had managed to overlook it.  I'm still not entirely sure why it
behaves this way (I guess so it only gates mark blocks after the first real
data goes through the WINDOW register?) but it's good to know it's working
properly.

Tracing further through the circuitry reveals that the first SEARCH
operation executed by the "Search Find All Blocks" diagnostic isn't
executing properly -- it sets the GO bit momentarily and all the command
bits seem to be making it to the controller, but before the drive begins
forward movement "GO" goes low and after that nothing happens; the
diagnostic halts after waiting for an interrupt for about 30 seconds.
Regular MOVE operations appear to work fine.  I've got a ton of signals to
dig through so I'm not sure what's going on yet.  Think I may need to get
the Logic Analyzer out for this one.

- Josh



>
> —FritzM.
>
>
>

Re: Looking for tips debugging DEC TC01 controller

[Fritz Mueller via cctalk]

> On Nov 23, 2021, at 3:17 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk  
> wrote:
> I picked up a TC01 in trade (for a TC08) a couple of weeks back and this
> past weekend I got it hooked up and powered up with my PDP-8/I + TU55
> transport.  I've been debugging it and have solved a couple of issues but
> the current one has me stumped and I'm looking for advice, hoping I
> overlooked something obvious...

Any updates here, Josh?  I’m not familiar enough with 8’s or their peripherals 
to offer any relevant suggestions, but I’m curious to hear what you find and 
how you crack it!

—FritzM.

RE: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Henk Gooijen via cctalk]

Van: Henk Gooijen via cctalk
Verzonden: dinsdag 30 november 2021 22:52
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts
Onderwerp: RE: PDP-11/70 Boards

Van: Fritz Mueller via cctalk
Verzonden: dinsdag 30 november 2021 22:43
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts
Onderwerp: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards


> I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban’s site: 
> http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html

> Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or did 
> you convert to more standard gerbers?

I just went with ExpressPCB for minimal hassle, but you could probably get it 
cheaper from other board houses these days.  For my KB11-A + FP11-B, which run 
asynchronously, it was handy to build up two of these.  Also useful for the 
RK11-C.

  —FritzM.

And useful for PDP-11/05, PDP-11/10, PDP-11/20, PDP-11/35, PDP-11/40 … more?
Henk, PA8PDP
I also seem to remember the RX01 (and RX02?)

RE: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Henk Gooijen via cctalk]

Van: Fritz Mueller via cctalk
Verzonden: dinsdag 30 november 2021 22:43
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts
Onderwerp: Re: PDP-11/70 Boards


> I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban’s site: 
> http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html

> Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or did 
> you convert to more standard gerbers?

I just went with ExpressPCB for minimal hassle, but you could probably get it 
cheaper from other board houses these days.  For my KB11-A + FP11-B, which run 
asynchronously, it was handy to build up two of these.  Also useful for the 
RK11-C.

  —FritzM.

And useful for PDP-11/05, PDP-11/10, PDP-11/20, PDP-11/35, PDP-11/40 … more?
Henk, PA8PDP

Re: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Fritz Mueller via cctalk]

> I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban’s site: 
> http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html 

> Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or did 
> you convert to more standard gerbers?

I just went with ExpressPCB for minimal hassle, but you could probably get it 
cheaper from other board houses these days.  For my KB11-A + FP11-B, which run 
asynchronously, it was handy to build up two of these.  Also useful for the 
RK11-C.

  —FritzM.

Re: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 11/30/2021 2:04 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote:


On 11/30/21 10:06 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
 From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working, you'll really need KM11
cards...



On Nov 30, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk  
wrote:
I do still have KM11 boards and some overlays (I'd have to check to see if I 
have the appropriate overlays for the 11/70).  I don't unfortunately have any 
light masks or full kits.


I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban’s site: 
http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html 
.  I have found the single long 
board form factor convenient, but they don’t have nice light dividers and overlays 
like Guy’s.

Agreed that at least one of these, as well as a hex extender card, are 
absolutely essential if you need to debug CPU/MMU/FPU cards (which, given their 
age, is nearly guaranteed unless you are getting them pre-checked/repaired from 
another restorer.)

  —FritzM.




Did you use that directly with ExpressPCB and order from ExpressPCB or 
did you convert to more standard gerbers?  (This thread has me 
motiviated to maybe get my 11/45 running again next year, and verify or 
fix my FP11-C)


[Note,  I have also been corresponding with the OP on purchase of my 4 
"spare" boards for an FP11-C]


JRJ

Re: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Fritz Mueller via cctalk]

> On 11/30/21 10:06 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working, you'll really need KM11
> cards...

> On Nov 30, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> I do still have KM11 boards and some overlays (I'd have to check to see if I 
> have the appropriate overlays for the 11/70).  I don't unfortunately have any 
> light masks or full kits.

I built mine from a layout on Tom Uban’s site: 
http://www.ubanproductions.com/museum.html 
.  I have found the single long 
board form factor convenient, but they don’t have nice light dividers and 
overlays like Guy’s.

Agreed that at least one of these, as well as a hex extender card, are 
absolutely essential if you need to debug CPU/MMU/FPU cards (which, given their 
age, is nearly guaranteed unless you are getting them pre-checked/repaired from 
another restorer.)

 —FritzM.

Re: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Guy Sotomayor via cctalk]

On 11/30/21 10:06 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:


 From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working, you'll really need KM11
cards; dunno if Guy Steele still has those clones he was selling.


I think you meant me.  Guy Steele is from Common LISP fame.  ;-)

I do still have KM11 boards and some overlays (I'd have to check to see 
if I have the appropriate overlays for the 11/70).  I don't 
unfortunately have any light masks or full kits.


--
TTFN - Guy

Re: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Ed C. via cctalk]

Very helpful! Thank you

On Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 19:06 Noel Chiappa  wrote:

> > From: Ed Cross
>
> > I'm currently restoring a PDP-11/70 system and need the following
> > boards to complete the CPU: FP11-C
>
> From your mention of the FP11-C, I gather your -11/70 has a KB11-C (later)
> CPU, not the KB11-B CPU of the earlier PDP-11/70's (prior to 1976 - the
> difference between the two was whether they took the optional FP11-B or
> FP11-C
> FPP).
>
> Not that it makes a big difference in your case; the 4 cache cards are the
> same in both.
>
> There used to be a seller on eBait (on the mid-East Coast - Baltimore,
> IIRC)
> who was selling -11/70 CPU cards (I bought a whole spare set from him) but
> alas he seems to have gone away (or sold them all; a quick search, both on
> eBait, and in my email, didn't turm him up; I can institute a deeper search
> if need be).
>
> From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working, you'll really need KM11
> cards; dunno if Guy Steele still has those clones he was selling.
>
>
> There are definitely some versions of Unix which will run fine on -11/70's
> without the FP11 (e.g. V6). The system binary is different for the
> with/without versions, though: in the assembler code which saves the state
> of
> one process before switching to another, there is code like:
>
> stfps   (r1)+
>
> which will probably get an illegal instruction trap in kernel mode on a
> machine with no FP11, and is therefore conditionally assembled (depending
> on
> if the particular machine the system is being built for has an FP11).
> Perhaps
> the later BSD versions look for the FP11 on startup, and adjust their
> behaviour appropriately, but I'm not familiar with them.
>
> V6 as distributed contains system binary for an -11/40, which will run on
> _any_ -11 UNIX will run on, and can be used to build appropriate system
> binary.
>
>
> (Diversion: I've never found out whether the KB11-B and KB11-C of the
> -11/70
> used/could use the same backplane or not. By examining the prints for the
> boards of the FP11-B and FP11-C, and seeing on which pins they exchanged
> signals, and what signals they exchanged with the rest of the CPU, and on
> which pins, it should be possible to work it out. Ditto for the M8133 ROM
> and
> ROM Control of the KB11-B, replaced with the M8123 in the KB11-C.)
>
> (Interesting factoid: the M8123 is the only card shared between any variant
> of the -11/45 and -11/70: both the KB11-C and KB11-D use it. Of course, I
> think we're still missing a wirelist for the -11/70 backplane, of any
> variant; and the ECO history. There appears to have been at least one
> poorly
> documented upgrade; see here:
>
>   http://gunkies.org/wiki/MK11_memory_system#CSR_Access
>
> for more.)
>
> Noel
>

Re: PDP-11/70 Boards

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Ed Cross

> I'm currently restoring a PDP-11/70 system and need the following
> boards to complete the CPU: FP11-C

>From your mention of the FP11-C, I gather your -11/70 has a KB11-C (later)
CPU, not the KB11-B CPU of the earlier PDP-11/70's (prior to 1976 - the
difference between the two was whether they took the optional FP11-B or FP11-C
FPP).

Not that it makes a big difference in your case; the 4 cache cards are the
same in both.

There used to be a seller on eBait (on the mid-East Coast - Baltimore, IIRC)
who was selling -11/70 CPU cards (I bought a whole spare set from him) but
alas he seems to have gone away (or sold them all; a quick search, both on
eBait, and in my email, didn't turm him up; I can institute a deeper search
if need be).

>From the blog of someone who got a KB11-A working, you'll really need KM11
cards; dunno if Guy Steele still has those clones he was selling.


There are definitely some versions of Unix which will run fine on -11/70's
without the FP11 (e.g. V6). The system binary is different for the
with/without versions, though: in the assembler code which saves the state of
one process before switching to another, there is code like:

stfps   (r1)+

which will probably get an illegal instruction trap in kernel mode on a
machine with no FP11, and is therefore conditionally assembled (depending on
if the particular machine the system is being built for has an FP11). Perhaps
the later BSD versions look for the FP11 on startup, and adjust their
behaviour appropriately, but I'm not familiar with them.

V6 as distributed contains system binary for an -11/40, which will run on
_any_ -11 UNIX will run on, and can be used to build appropriate system
binary.


(Diversion: I've never found out whether the KB11-B and KB11-C of the -11/70
used/could use the same backplane or not. By examining the prints for the
boards of the FP11-B and FP11-C, and seeing on which pins they exchanged
signals, and what signals they exchanged with the rest of the CPU, and on
which pins, it should be possible to work it out. Ditto for the M8133 ROM and
ROM Control of the KB11-B, replaced with the M8123 in the KB11-C.)

(Interesting factoid: the M8123 is the only card shared between any variant
of the -11/45 and -11/70: both the KB11-C and KB11-D use it. Of course, I
think we're still missing a wirelist for the -11/70 backplane, of any
variant; and the ECO history. There appears to have been at least one poorly
documented upgrade; see here:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/MK11_memory_system#CSR_Access

for more.)

Noel