Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
I notice you didn't say TK50 here :) I have some TK50's as well. They really are not that bad, the key problem with them is the bearings in the two capstans: They're old, oil has dried out, and as a result they drag on the tapes. Plus one of them has a tachometer wheel under it, and if it doesn't report speed properly things go bad. The solution is to remove the capstans and either re-oil both the top and bottom bearings with watch oil, or replace the bearings with new ones. I oil them, the modern mobieus watch oils are synthetic and last a long time. As long as there is no drag you should be good. One big problem would be aligning them as the height of the capstans is pretty critical. You can fix this by simply marking the bolts then counting the exact number of turns it takes to take each one off. Write it down, and when putting things together put them on the exact same number of turns. Presto, capstans aligned, drive works for another 15 years or so. I have a kyroflux I used to image a bunch of Rainbow Venix disks... love it, but I've had it a long time... If there's interest I can image them. If they're already out there then I just keep em for spares. C
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 8:34 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Are RX50 drives less robust than what was used to install Windoze 95? > > Well, they're 10 years older than your Windows 95 floppy so sort of. I > still have some working RX50's here but they are a bit fickle. That's a > big reason why I went to TK70's, more reliable. > I notice you didn't say TK50 here :) I recently read 400 odd RX50s from my old DEC Rainbow collection recently. All but 3 read perfectly. Are any of my distro kits not online? I can probably read them with a > Deskpro XE/4100 with a 1.2mb floppy drive if they need to be scanned. > I have a kyroflux I used to image a bunch of Rainbow Venix disks... love it, but I've had it a long time... Warner >
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
Are RX50 drives less robust than what was used to install Windoze 95? Well, they're 10 years older than your Windows 95 floppy so sort of. I still have some working RX50's here but they are a bit fickle. That's a big reason why I went to TK70's, more reliable. Are any of my distro kits not online? I can probably read them with a Deskpro XE/4100 with a 1.2mb floppy drive if they need to be scanned. C
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: I think installing 30 floppy disks would be an exercise in insanity: No arguments there. That would probably wear down an RX50 drive to the nubbins. Are RX50 drives less robust than what was used to install Windoze 95?
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
There is. What's in my floppy pile here: Micro RSX11 4.0 9 floppies base Micro RSTS 2.1 20 floppy disks Ultrix 11 2.0 30 floppy disks I think installing 30 floppy disks would be an exercise in insanity: That would probably wear down an RX50 drive to the nubbins. I also seem to have PRO/RDT, Pro/Fortran, Pro/Cobol, Venix 1.0, P/OS 1.7 and P/OS 2.0/Synergy. Man I have a lot of stuff here. C On 2/21/2022 10:10 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: On 22/02/2022 00:32, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: Hi I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. Diag sees drive as RA82. It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. So how do I install an operating system? Suggestions please. Thanks Rod I have been doing a lot of digging. Its possible there was a MicroRSX on RX50 I'm looking for images. Rod
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:32 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > Hi > > I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. > > It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, > > Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive > attached. > > Diag sees drive as RA82. > > It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. > > I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. > > Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. > > So how do I install an operating system? > > Suggestions please. You can install RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ from CD-R, I couldn’t figure out how to install RSTS/E from CD-R. Zane
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
On 22/02/2022 00:32, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: Hi I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. Diag sees drive as RA82. It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. So how do I install an operating system? Suggestions please. Thanks Rod I have been doing a lot of digging. Its possible there was a MicroRSX on RX50 I'm looking for images. Rod
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
On 22/02/2022 00:55, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 4:32 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: Hi I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. Diag sees drive as RA82. It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. So how do I install an operating system? Suggestions please. Thanks Rod Is the PC old enough to still have PCI slots? If it is, one option would be to pick up a cheap PCI SCSI controller, e.g. an AHA-2940, that you can use to write disk images to a SCSI hard drive. Then use SIMH to create disk images of an OS of interest that can then be dumped to the SCSI hard drive. Or pick up a SCSI2SD device to use with the CMD CQD-220A instead of a SCSI disk drive. Then copy disk images created using SIMH on the PC to an SD card. Is the CQD-220A a /TM version, or an /E version? If it's a /TM version you could also pick up a cheap SCSI tape drive, and create installation tapes for RSTS/E or 2.11BSD and boot from those to install on a SCSI hard drive. I've done that a few times just for the heck of installing from tape. If you have the /E version (or /T/M version) instead of the /TM version you can do either MSCP or TMSCP, but not both at the same time. For RT-11, that is small enough it wouldn't be difficult to install from RX-50 disks, if you had a means to create disks from images. Exactly, the best solution is an RX50 distribution. I have never seen one or a way of making one. If you have a PDP-11 with an RX50 then you would need one. Rod
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
On 22/02/2022 02:35, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. Hm, that's an interesting setup. If it has two MCSP controllers then one of them is at an alternate address. I never really worked out how to run a system with an RQDX3+Second controller to get the floppies working and the hard disk working so hm. That said, one option is to find a friendly person, send them an RD54 and have them copy a sysgen onto it. Another option is to get one of Dave G's MFM emulators, download an RD54 image of the OS in question, transfer it to the real disk then go. Or just plug Dave's emulator into the 11/83 and run with it. Yeah, that's a simple option. For myself I run a 600mb ESDI drive on an MTI controller that I built off an RL02 image which I uploaded via serial link to a real RL02. To keep me from doing this again I backed up my system to a TK70, and have the BRU boot floppy set up on an RX01. Simple restores are nice. C Yes that's right they are at different addresses as per the manual Rod
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
On Feb 21, 2022, at 19:32, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > So how do I install an operating system? You can install 2.11BSD rather normally using VTserver. It makes your modern computer into a pseudo tape protocol via your serial port to the pdp console. It was written for this purpose and I’ve successfully installed bsd this way without having to contrive install images using simulators (which for me takes the fun out of owning real iron).. You could also raw-write a bootable rt-11 image onto a floppy using vtserver, boot it and from there install rt to big disk. Also, someone posted v7m floppy images on here last year. You could get RT-11 + Kermit up , then transfer and write v7m floppies from there. Beware of the problem of formatting RX-50 floppies if you decide to try this. I really hope Someone finds a newer ultrix floppy distro soon! These options stick a bit closer to the real pdp experience if you’re into that. Good luck Jake
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. Hm, that's an interesting setup. If it has two MCSP controllers then one of them is at an alternate address. I never really worked out how to run a system with an RQDX3+Second controller to get the floppies working and the hard disk working so hm. That said, one option is to find a friendly person, send them an RD54 and have them copy a sysgen onto it. Another option is to get one of Dave G's MFM emulators, download an RD54 image of the OS in question, transfer it to the real disk then go. Or just plug Dave's emulator into the 11/83 and run with it. Yeah, that's a simple option. For myself I run a 600mb ESDI drive on an MTI controller that I built off an RL02 image which I uploaded via serial link to a real RL02. To keep me from doing this again I backed up my system to a TK70, and have the BRU boot floppy set up on an RX01. Simple restores are nice. C
Re: Seeking paper tape punch
Ben said > This requires a REAL MACHINE SHOP ... none this 3d printer stuff. I > would recommend a building a 35mm film punch and reader, as film stock > is still easy to find compared to paper tape. Zuse used them for his > computers in Germany on the 40's. Quality Mechanical stuff is lost high > tech. Consumer-grade CNC stencil cutters are fine at cutting plastic sheet and should be ok with film stock. My ptap2dxf (latest version 1.3) will produce output to cut tapes for 8-level ASCII, 5-level Baudot, 2-level Morse (Wheatstone and Cable Code), 7-level Whirlwind, Teletype Chadless and some customising options too. Still some other formats to do such as Colossus etc. Thanks for the notion of making Zuse tape, will look into it. Steve.
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
On 2/21/2022 6:55 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 4:32 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: Hi I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. Diag sees drive as RA82. It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. So how do I install an operating system? Suggestions please. Thanks Rod Is the PC old enough to still have PCI slots? If it is, one option would be to pick up a cheap PCI SCSI controller, e.g. an AHA-2940, that you can use to write disk images to a SCSI hard drive. Then use SIMH to create disk images of an OS of interest that can then be dumped to the SCSI hard drive. Or pick up a SCSI2SD device to use with the CMD CQD-220A instead of a SCSI disk drive. Then copy disk images created using SIMH on the PC to an SD card. Is the CQD-220A a /TM version, or an /E version? If it's a /TM version you could also pick up a cheap SCSI tape drive, and create installation tapes for RSTS/E or 2.11BSD and boot from those to install on a SCSI hard drive. I've done that a few times just for the heck of installing from tape. If you have the /E version (or /T/M version) instead of the /TM version you can do either MSCP or TMSCP, but not both at the same time. For RT-11, that is small enough it wouldn't be difficult to install from RX-50 disks, if you had a means to create disks from images. Another alternative would be, after installing an OS under SimH using another program as was suggested here, to transfer the disk image (e.g. vtserver https://github.com/chapmajs/vtserver ). JRJ
Re: Seeking paper tape punch
> On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:07 PM, Guy Fedorkow wrote: > > hi Paul, > Yes, I should have said -- I'm looking for a machine that can punch under > control of a computer. > Whirlwind actually used seven-bit Flexowriters for reading and punching > (along with a high-speed reader later on), but I think it would be even > harder to find fresh seven-level tape even if a seven bit machine turned up. > I actually have been using a BRPE on loan from another contributor to this > list, but it's time to return the unit, so I've started to look for > alternatives. > I assume something like an ASR-33 would do the trick, although a machine > without keyboard and printer might have fewer moving parts to go wrong. But > I don't see many plausible choices on ebay. > If anyone can suggest other sources, I'll poke around The nice thing about an ASR33 (or other hardcopy terminal with reader/punch like a TT model 15) is that you can interface them to a computer rather easily, just hook up a UART with appropriate driver/receiver circuitry. RS232 to 20 mA (or 60mA for a Model 15) isn't totally trivial but it certainly is no big deal. And those slow machines actually have the nice benefit that it's easy for people to see the action, and to get some understanding at a gut level of how slow computers were in those days. I understand there is a group called "Green keys" -- ham radio operators who use old "teletype" machines -- which in that community means wny sort of keyboard telex-type machine, not necessarily made by Teletype Co. though US ones often are. 5 bit machines are common in that crowd, some 8 bit machines also appear. I haven't participated, but I would think that you might find pointers to options there. As for 7 bit tape media: I found out in the past year or so that there actually was such a thing as paper tape of width designed for 7 tracks, but a lot of "7 bit" paper tape work actually used 1 inch wide tape, i.e., what is normally considered 8 bit tape. For example, the Flexowriters on which I did my first programming at TU Eindhoven used a 7-bit code but on 8 bit tape. paul
Re: Seeking paper tape punch
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: Greetings CC-Talk, I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's Whirlwind project. The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we could use actual paper tape. A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder. We don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just something fairly reliable. If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let me know? Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match on ebay. Thanks! /guy fedorkow I'll second the GNT 4601. I use it for punching tapes for my HP system, and reading old tapes. Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 4:32 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi > >I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. > >It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, > > Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive > attached. > > Diag sees drive as RA82. > > It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. > > I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. > > Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. > > So how do I install an operating system? > > Suggestions please. > > Thanks > > Rod > Is the PC old enough to still have PCI slots? If it is, one option would be to pick up a cheap PCI SCSI controller, e.g. an AHA-2940, that you can use to write disk images to a SCSI hard drive. Then use SIMH to create disk images of an OS of interest that can then be dumped to the SCSI hard drive. Or pick up a SCSI2SD device to use with the CMD CQD-220A instead of a SCSI disk drive. Then copy disk images created using SIMH on the PC to an SD card. Is the CQD-220A a /TM version, or an /E version? If it's a /TM version you could also pick up a cheap SCSI tape drive, and create installation tapes for RSTS/E or 2.11BSD and boot from those to install on a SCSI hard drive. I've done that a few times just for the heck of installing from tape. If you have the /E version (or /T/M version) instead of the /TM version you can do either MSCP or TMSCP, but not both at the same time. For RT-11, that is small enough it wouldn't be difficult to install from RX-50 disks, if you had a means to create disks from images. >
Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83
> On Feb 21, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk > wrote: > > Hi > > I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. > > It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, > > Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive > attached. > > Diag sees drive as RA82. > > It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. > > I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. > > Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. > > So how do I install an operating system? > > Suggestions please. So all you have is a BIG disk and a floppy drive? You're in a world of hurt. The straightforward answer is to get an OS kit on floppies, and run the installation procedure. The problem is that a lot of the more obvious choices for OS (given that you have a 22 bit machine with bit memory and disk) don't have floppy kits. For example, RSTS has a trimmed down kit called "micro-RSTS" back in the V9 era; I don't know that a V10 version of that was ever done. And even the severe trim job still took 10 floppies. Do you have a PC that can do I/O to that SCSI drive? If so, the best answer may be to run SIMH on that PC, with the SCSI disk as its disk drive. Then feed an install kit to an emulated SIMH tape drive or whatever you need for the kit media. Or you could do an image copy of someone else's system, provided it sits on a disk that's close enough in size to what you have. "Close enough" depends on the OS. For example, with RSTS it would work so long as the two devices have the same "device cluster size", i.e., their sizes rounded up to the next power of two are the same. An obvious question is what sort of system you're looking for. RT, RSX-11/M+, RSTS, Ultrix, BSD 2.11 are all possibilities. Exotic choices like IAS or DSM may not like the CPU and/or the controller. But RT and Ultrix are, to put it mildly, rather different systems. paul
Re: Seeking paper tape punch
If anybody actually wants to build one I have the important part, motor
driven with solenoid operated cam driven punches; would only need a
suitable interface and maybe a cabinet.
Don't know if it would be worth while with today's shipping costs though,
unless you're local in the Toronto area.
m
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 7:33 PM ben via cctalk
wrote:
> On 2022-02-21 3:11 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> [apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of
> the cctalk digests]
> >>
> >> Greetings CC-Talk,
> >>I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce
> students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's
> Whirlwind project. The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we
> could use actual paper tape.
> >>A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder. We
> don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just
> something fairly reliable.
> >> If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let
> me know? Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as
> possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match
> on ebay.
> >>
> >>Thanks!
> >> /guy fedorkow
> >
> > Do you mean a punch as a computer peripheral, or a keyboard operated
> tape punch? For the former, the ones you mentioned are obvious choices;
> BRPE is another. Also the DEC paper tape reader/punch (PC01 or some such
> number).
> >
> > For keyboard operated, there's Teletype, Flexowriter, Creed, Siemens,
> depending on where you're located. ASR33 is a common 8-bit punching
> terminal. Older models that use 5-level tape ("Baudot") may also be
> around, and those could certainly serve for 1950s era machines that may
> well have actually used those. I don't know what Whirlwind used, but I
> know some other 1950s machines that used 5 bit tape for their I/O.
> Electrologica X1 is an example.
> >
> > paul
> >
>
> This requires a REAL MACHINE SHOP ... none this 3d printer stuff. I
> would recommend a building a 35mm film punch and reader, as film stock
> is still easy to find compared to paper tape. Zuse used them for his
> computers in Germany on the 40's. Quality Mechanical stuff is lost high
> tech.
> Ben.
>
>
>
Re: Seeking paper tape punch
On 2022-02-21 3:11 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk
wrote:
[apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of the
cctalk digests]
Greetings CC-Talk,
I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce students to
history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's Whirlwind
project. The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we could use
actual paper tape.
A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder. We don't need anything
"authentic", or fast, or high performance, just something fairly reliable.
If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let me know?
Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as possible
candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match on ebay.
Thanks!
/guy fedorkow
Do you mean a punch as a computer peripheral, or a keyboard operated tape
punch? For the former, the ones you mentioned are obvious choices; BRPE is
another. Also the DEC paper tape reader/punch (PC01 or some such number).
For keyboard operated, there's Teletype, Flexowriter, Creed, Siemens, depending on where
you're located. ASR33 is a common 8-bit punching terminal. Older models that use
5-level tape ("Baudot") may also be around, and those could certainly serve for
1950s era machines that may well have actually used those. I don't know what Whirlwind
used, but I know some other 1950s machines that used 5 bit tape for their I/O.
Electrologica X1 is an example.
paul
This requires a REAL MACHINE SHOP ... none this 3d printer stuff. I
would recommend a building a 35mm film punch and reader, as film stock
is still easy to find compared to paper tape. Zuse used them for his
computers in Germany on the 40's. Quality Mechanical stuff is lost high
tech.
Ben.
Installing an operating system on an 11/83
Hi I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box. It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached, Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive attached. Diag sees drive as RA82. It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine. I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating systems. Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC. So how do I install an operating system? Suggestions please. Thanks Rod
Re: Seeking paper tape punch
> On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> [apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of the
> cctalk digests]
>
> Greetings CC-Talk,
> I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce students to
> history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's Whirlwind
> project. The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we could use
> actual paper tape.
> A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder. We don't need
> anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just something fairly
> reliable.
>If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let me know?
> Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as possible
> candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match on ebay.
>
> Thanks!
> /guy fedorkow
Do you mean a punch as a computer peripheral, or a keyboard operated tape
punch? For the former, the ones you mentioned are obvious choices; BRPE is
another. Also the DEC paper tape reader/punch (PC01 or some such number).
For keyboard operated, there's Teletype, Flexowriter, Creed, Siemens, depending
on where you're located. ASR33 is a common 8-bit punching terminal. Older
models that use 5-level tape ("Baudot") may also be around, and those could
certainly serve for 1950s era machines that may well have actually used those.
I don't know what Whirlwind used, but I know some other 1950s machines that
used 5 bit tape for their I/O. Electrologica X1 is an example.
paul
Re: Seeking paper tape punch
If you can find on a Teletype ASR33 is the perfect example of a reader/punch and a hard copy terminal all at the same time. If you find 2, please let me know :) On 2/21/2022 3:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: [apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of the cctalk digests] Greetings CC-Talk, I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's Whirlwind project. The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we could use actual paper tape. A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder. We don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just something fairly reliable. If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let me know? Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match on ebay. Thanks! /guy fedorkow
Seeking paper tape punch
[apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of the cctalk digests] Greetings CC-Talk, I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's Whirlwind project. The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we could use actual paper tape. A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder. We don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just something fairly reliable. If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let me know? Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match on ebay. Thanks! /guy fedorkow
Re: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential?
> On Feb 21, 2022, at 10:29 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > Also, in taking a look this morning at the M9302 schematic around page 70 in > the commonly available 11/34 engineering drawings set (rev B, Sep 76), there > appears to be a mistake! The output of the SACK turnaround circuit is > annotated here BUS SACK H, but I’m almost certain this should be BUS SACK L… > May be worth a look for other versions of the M9302 drawings to verify this. And indeed -- the rev D, Jul 77 M9302 drawing has this annotation corrected to BUS SACK L.
Re: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential?
>> From: Fritz Mueller >> I think you are thinking of the M9302, Noel: a far-side terminator card >> with integrated SACK turnaround? > On Feb 21, 2022, at 7:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: > No; the M8264 Sack Timeout module. What's an M8264, you say? ... Ah, quite interesting, didn’t know about that one! The KD11-E is pretty bare boned... Parity handling was also a quad “add on”. > So if i) a device requests a grant, and then drops the request at _just_ the > right time (so a grant gets sent out when there's no device waiting to grab > it), and ii) there's a break in that grant line (maybe a missing grant > continuity card) before it gets to the M9302, which can turn it around as a > SACK , then ... the KD11-E CPU will hang! One small elaboration here: grants on the UNIBUS, unlike everything else, are active high. So I believe a broken grant chain with an M9302 in place on the far side results in the grant being pulled up at the M9302, and then continuous assertion of SACK, hanging the processor straight out the gate. Also, in taking a look this morning at the M9302 schematic around page 70 in the commonly available 11/34 engineering drawings set (rev B, Sep 76), there appears to be a mistake! The output of the SACK turnaround circuit is annotated here BUS SACK H, but I’m almost certain this should be BUS SACK L… May be worth a look for other versions of the M9302 drawings to verify this. cheers, —FritzM.
Re: Is The M9312 Boot Module Essential?
>> On Feb 19, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> The -11/34 (not the /34A) has something unusual for grant timeouts, >> but I forget the details. I'll look it up. And here it is... > From: Fritz Mueller > I think you are thinking of the M9302, Noel: a far-side terminator card > with integrated SACK turnaround? No; the M8264 Sack Timeout module. What's an M8264, you say? Well, there's next to nothing in print about them, but I think I've managed to assemble enough distant clues to work out their story. Start with EK-11034-OP-PRE2 (I have a hard-copy of it); it gives a clue as to how it all started. In 3.10.2, "End-of-Bus Terminator", it says: "As a result of this [SACK turnaround] circuitry [on the M9302], the SACK timeout feature found on other processors is not required" So if i) a device requests a grant, and then drops the request at _just_ the right time (so a grant gets sent out when there's no device waiting to grab it), and ii) there's a break in that grant line (maybe a missing grant continuity card) before it gets to the M9302, which can turn it around as a SACK , then ... the KD11-E CPU will hang! The M8264 was apparently the first attempt to deal with this. Like I said, there's next to nothing in print about them. EK-11034-UG-001, in Section 1.2, "System Description", does list "M8264 SACK Timeout module (11/34 only)" in the list of components - but says nothing else _at all_ about it! There is one page of circuit diagram of it, in: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/MP00082_1134_Vol2_Sep76.pdf on pg. 149. The rest of the prints for it (e.g. the PCB layout) aren't there, but I happen to have one - it's a quad board with only a few components on it. Looking at the circuit diagram, it's mostly just a 9602 retriggerable, resettable one shot. (There's also a synchronous 4-bit up/down counter, but that's just there to count events, and display the count in some LEDs - probably just to make sure it isn't happening too often.) Since I'm not a real hardware type, I'm not absolutely certain just from looking at the circuit diagram exactly what it does, or how, but EK-KD1EA-MM-001 Section 4.7.2.4, "No-SACK Timeout Circuitry", shows a very similar circuit, and says it "asserts BUS SACK ... [if the device] does not assert SACK within 22 usec after a grant line has been enabled." Presumably the M8264 does the same thing. Interestingly, that circuit appears in the KD11-EA prints on pg. K2-10; the KD11-E prints have a blank space on that page where this circuit is in the KD11-EA prints. Since the M9302 appears in EK-11034-OP-PRE2, with SACK turnaround, I deduce that the M8264 was produced _after_ that came out, and post-dates the M9302, to fix the potential CPU hang issue I described - and was later dropped when the -11/34 switched to the KD11-EA, with that circuit built in. I'll do a page on the CHWiki about the M8264, and include an image of one. I figure I might use my M8264 on my -11/04, which also doesn't have SACK timeout (on the BG lines, for sure; it looks like it might have it on the NPG line). The M8264 doesn't tie into the CPU, it just looks at UNIBUS lines, so it can be plugged into any UNIBUS machine (near the start of the bus, since the grant lines it monitors are wired sequentially). Noel
Re: VAX9000 unearthed
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 21:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/20/22 15:31, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/20/22 10:10, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > >> I heard Butler Lampson once exclaim that ECL design was in some ways easier > >> than TTL. If you terminated every line, you get controlled impedances with > >> controlled edges. This was the design philosophy for the Dorado. > > > > Indeed--ECL WW prototype boards usually had a 3rd row for SIP > > termination resistors alongside the DIP sockets. One nice thing about > > ECL is that there are many fewer problems with power rail spikes. On > > the other hand, the constant power consumption needs beefier power supplies. > > > > I recall that Honeywell redid one of their mainframe designs in ECL, > > with somewhat disappointing performance results. I don't recall the > > details offhand. > > It's long enough ago that my mind is fuzzy, but I think Primes were > ECL. > Gould made a set of realtime and (via a board swap) unix systems - we had a few PowerNode 6040s and one 9080 at university. One of the 6040's was mostly consumed by providing NFS to the other machines. I remember at the time being impressed that the ffs had on disk padding for 64 bit timestamps. When the university stopped using them the CS department just left their 6040 running unmonitored over the summer, and came in to find the aircon had partially flooded the room then failed, and the machine was happily still running in a shallow pool of slightly steamy water (it was, shall we say, not in a purpose built room) I also heard a possibly apocryphal story that the royal navy was tendering for an onboard computer for a sub: various suppliers found that their sample machines kept crashing, and the gould was the only one able to run reliably - turned out the installation location was quite close to "power generation equipment" and had been selected as the ambient temperature was too high to put anything else there David
