[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2022-10-18 3:36 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

Single package, multiple die.  Same goes for F11.


And the MV1. And the MVII. And the 8200, CVAX, Rigel/etc

I think the NVAX was on a single chip





Ah, I didn't know there were so many multi-dies in the range! I wonder 
if anyone is interested in taking some high quality X-rays. If it 
logistically makes sense I could lend boards for this...


--Toby

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

I like how having the old hardware gives physical "witness" and "evidence"
that all the old stories are true - people did invent and create these
things, they didn't just appear from aliens.


Indeed. I am teaching a security class on TCP/IP and I recently got my 
AT&T 7300 PC up and running with its Ethernet card and Wollogong TCP stack.


Granted the system doesn't have resolver/DNS libraries but even though 
it is almost 40 years old it still can connect to the most modern PC 
system, transfer data, and work using the same TCP/IP protocol.


I plan to show it to my students (along with how insanely easy it is to 
hack). But still, tat's stability over time.


CZ

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Steve Lewis via cctalk]

I had a thought once that the ultimate computer museum would be in orbit.
 Actually, I think there was some Star Trek episode along those lines (not
the one where Data was captured to be put into a museum, but something
similar).

I like how having the old hardware gives physical "witness" and "evidence"
that all the old stories are true - people did invent and create these
things, they didn't just appear from aliens.


I get sentimental thinking how we're the "last generation" to know the
world before computers.   I understand computers have technically "run the
world" maybe since the 1950s (in terms of big business accounting and
logistics, air traffic control, world banking, the tech that got us to the
moon, and long distance calls -- my father says he remembers talking to a
switchboard operator and asking to be connected to his grandmother by first
name, i.e. "Hi Susan, can you connect me to Martha Bell?", and the operator
recognized his voice and made the connection).   But you know what I mean
-- a world with no smartphone, no spycams at every corner, no logins,
paying with cash, and NOT having 24/7 international news.


Not saying things were better, just that it's a transition in humanity and
we are "digital pioneers."  What if the next "country" isn't physical, but
is a whole virtual space?  I think the day is coming on that -- if we
can't  move out into space, folks might "move" into the meta-virtual space
perhaps.  And why can't CyberSpace be a new "continent" or multiple ones?
  Humans shouldn't live like chickens in a henhouse (well, in my opinion)
-- but on the other hand, maybe that's a necessary step to (eventually) get
the critical-mass of engineering/theoretical physicists-type stuff in
virtual space that does lead to more advanced techniques to get into
space?   And if ISP servers are in orbit, what jurisdiction do physical
governments now have?


Not saying any of that is a Good-Thing - however, in general, we can't stop
"progress."

I see these online quantum computers that we can rent time on now -- and
it's like the 1950s/1960s all over again, when they rented time on
mainframes.  We'll see where it leads!

"smaller" collections - those are important, we need backup and redundancy
for all the usual reasons.  Fires and weather calamity still happen.  But
as the cost of real estate and land increases, that also increases the tax
burden -- sadly, eventually we can't reserve comfortable space for old
equipment.

If computer museums become "Digital Temples" and we start the Order of Bit
Twiddlers, could we then claim a religious exemption for tax purposes?















On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:46 AM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > All you need is a the local government to declare eminent domain and
> > greater user for the public good.
>
> Those would be the "significant barriers to cross".
>
> --
> Will
>

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

 Wow, they even copied the DEC car handles of the flip-chip style!

Always interesting. You never want to clone so closely you wind up 
cloning unintended "features". Like let's say there was a floating point 
bug that could be triggered to cause a system crash if very unusual 
things happened. That would be embarrassing.



C

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 10/18/22 09:18, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 09:45:30AM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote:

There wasn't much demand to build an PDP8, 6 or 10, the 11 was much more
intersting. BTW: As far as I heard some of the russian ICBM's using
computers build from the more advanched russian "PDP11-clones".


Saratov-2 seems to be PDP-8 "clone"

Wow, they even copied the DEC car handles of the flip-chip 
style!


Jon

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Oct 18, 2022, at 7:42 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
>> Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean.
>> Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for
>> people taking your land.
> 
> And for the younger crowd it's very expensive now. Not like the old days 
> (assuming you live near a job center.)
> 
>   - Ethan

This last weekend was the “Portland Retro Gaming Expo”, it was something of an 
eye opener as to how prices have gone up.  There were some good deals, for 
example I was tempted by the two Commodore 128D’s and the Atari Stacy one 
seller had, but as a whole, the prices leaned towards crazy.  

Thankfully I bought most of my collection of classic computers in the late 
90’s.  These days if I’m buying anything, it’s usually something modern to 
extend an old system, or a part I need.  I’ll also admit a certain amount of 
bewilderment on people getting excited to collect  something like a Pentium II.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Large private collections

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Oct 17, 2022, at 7:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> . . . and there is the point where it crosses over
> from you owning the collection,
> to the collection owning you.

This is a very accurate statement.  How many of us have grown to have a 
love/hate relationship with our collections.  My wife isn’t the one saying it 
takes up to  much room, I am.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: Think millenia [was Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012]

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

I can actually advise on the formation of some sort of organization (a
foundation or ministry is the best kind, but a private trust is also a good
option) into which ownership of one's collection can go, with instructions
for continuity of the collection (or dispersal) after one's demise.

If anyone is interested, please contact me privately.  I work on a donation
basis through my law ministry.

Sellam

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 1:49 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 12:12:16PM -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> > At 09:15 AM 10/18/2022, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
> > >>Own your land.
> > >>Museum or individual.
> > >
> > >You never own your land. They can always take it.
> >
> > Far more probable than someone taking your property?  Wanting to give it
> up.
> > Needing to give it up.  Or your death, and then someone else wants and
> needs
> > to get rid of it.
> >
> > A year ago today, someone made a great offer on my office building and I
> had
> > less than 30 days to move out 30 years and 4,500 square feet of crap.
> > I managed to down-size into about 1,500 square feet.
>
> Some time ago I gave an advice to this group. Ok, it was half tongue
> in cheek, but the more I read this thread, the more it seems like the
> only viable way for classic hobbists. I.e. it looks not as stupid as
> depending on goodwill of some future people, benevolence of the rich
> etc.
>
> Basically, my advice was to make a friend for c-tech, either have a
> friend in government or a friend in some well established church.
>
> It can be taken further - make preservation of old tech into the
> constitution. Or, build a religion around it. This way, scraping
> functional item would become federal offence or even a sin. Repairing
> broken item and making it useful would become... well, I am not
> sure. Generally those long term institutions are good in castigating
> here and now, while promising good thing in a future (if you follow
> their rules), so I guess it should be something like this - those who
> get enough points (repair enough S100 cards) will be allowed
> to... dunno, you would have to fill in the gaps.
>
> Otherwise, all collections are subject to random screwups, evictions,
> vandalism, jokery (in my country, from time to time, one joker or
> another burns churches, old, wooden, centuries-old, for the reason
> known only to them - perhaps they think it is funny or are mentally
> fucked, so destruction is only going to be mitigated, postponed, but
> not stopped).
>
> If gubmints and churches smell too bad, I advice befriending scouts.
>
> You (c-tech hobby, c-computer collections) need a friend that is
> rooted for by the people. Not because it can give money, but because
> of some non-monetary achievement. A lot of people do various deeds to
> defend constitution or come to clean their parish, but AFAIK not for
> the money. Just MHO, as I am not quite a hobbist (just reading about
> old stuff from time to time).
>
> --
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
> ** **
> ** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
>

[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Hi Rich.

As an aside, are there any updates as to the fate of the LCM collection?
I'd heard sordid rumors about its dispersal but would appreciate definitive
word from a reliable source (i.e. yourself) to the extent you're able to
discuss it.

Thanks.

Sellam

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:43 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:08:23 -0500
> > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk 
>
> > I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't
> > have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane
> to
> > MOS.
>
> MITS, not MOS.
>
> Messrs. Allen, Gates, and Davidoff wrote their BASIC for the Altair 8800
> using
> a chip emulator created by Allen using the Unimplemented User Operation
> (UUO)
> facility of the PDP-10.  He originally emulated the 8008, but updated it
> when
> the 8080 came out.
>
> He recreated the boot code for us to use on our restored 8800 at LCM+L, so
> that
> he could demonstrate the Altair BASIC for Leslie Stahl when she
> interviewed him
> for "60 Minutes" (when his memoir "Idea Man" was first published).  He
> spent
> several weeks at the nascent museum debugging the BASIC interpreter prior
> to
> her visit--we did not have the final code he demo'd at MITS, but backups
> of the
> development sources, so he had to fix some known bugs.
>
> Rich
>

[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming

[Rich Alderson via cctalk]

> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:08:23 -0500
> From: Steve Lewis via cctalk 

> I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't
> have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane to
> MOS.

MITS, not MOS.

Messrs. Allen, Gates, and Davidoff wrote their BASIC for the Altair 8800 using
a chip emulator created by Allen using the Unimplemented User Operation (UUO)
facility of the PDP-10.  He originally emulated the 8008, but updated it when
the 8080 came out.

He recreated the boot code for us to use on our restored 8800 at LCM+L, so that
he could demonstrate the Altair BASIC for Leslie Stahl when she interviewed him
for "60 Minutes" (when his memoir "Idea Man" was first published).  He spent
several weeks at the nascent museum debugging the BASIC interpreter prior to
her visit--we did not have the final code he demo'd at MITS, but backups of the
development sources, so he had to fix some known bugs.

Rich

[cctalk] Think millenia [was Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012]

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 12:12:16PM -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> At 09:15 AM 10/18/2022, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
> >>Own your land.
> >>Museum or individual.
> >
> >You never own your land. They can always take it.
> 
> Far more probable than someone taking your property?  Wanting to give it up.
> Needing to give it up.  Or your death, and then someone else wants and needs 
> to get rid of it.
> 
> A year ago today, someone made a great offer on my office building and I had
> less than 30 days to move out 30 years and 4,500 square feet of crap.  
> I managed to down-size into about 1,500 square feet.

Some time ago I gave an advice to this group. Ok, it was half tongue
in cheek, but the more I read this thread, the more it seems like the
only viable way for classic hobbists. I.e. it looks not as stupid as
depending on goodwill of some future people, benevolence of the rich
etc.

Basically, my advice was to make a friend for c-tech, either have a
friend in government or a friend in some well established church.

It can be taken further - make preservation of old tech into the
constitution. Or, build a religion around it. This way, scraping
functional item would become federal offence or even a sin. Repairing
broken item and making it useful would become... well, I am not
sure. Generally those long term institutions are good in castigating
here and now, while promising good thing in a future (if you follow
their rules), so I guess it should be something like this - those who
get enough points (repair enough S100 cards) will be allowed
to... dunno, you would have to fill in the gaps.

Otherwise, all collections are subject to random screwups, evictions,
vandalism, jokery (in my country, from time to time, one joker or
another burns churches, old, wooden, centuries-old, for the reason
known only to them - perhaps they think it is funny or are mentally
fucked, so destruction is only going to be mitigated, postponed, but
not stopped).

If gubmints and churches smell too bad, I advice befriending scouts.

You (c-tech hobby, c-computer collections) need a friend that is
rooted for by the people. Not because it can give money, but because
of some non-monetary achievement. A lot of people do various deeds to
defend constitution or come to clean their parish, but AFAIK not for
the money. Just MHO, as I am not quite a hobbist (just reading about
old stuff from time to time).

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Single package, multiple die.  Same goes for F11.


And the MV1. And the MVII. And the 8200, CVAX, Rigel/etc

I think the NVAX was on a single chip

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
the T11.



J11?


KDF11?

I think the point has been made. :-)

C

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

All you need is a the local government to declare eminent domain and
greater user for the public good.


Arthur Dent's home, and planet, were bulldozed to make way for bypasses.

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Teo Zenios via cctalk]

Don't pay your  taxes and it goes quick.

-Original Message- 
From: William Donzelli via cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 10:36 AM 
To: Ethan O'Toole ; William Donzelli via cctalk 
Cc: William Donzelli 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012 


Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean.

Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for
people taking your land.

--
Will

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:15 AM Ethan O'Toole  wrote:


> Own your land.
> Museum or individual.

You never own your land. They can always take it.

- Ethan



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

[cctalk] FW: [EXTERNAL]Fwd: HP 2000 hardware in Salt Lake

[Daryl Faulkner via cctalk]

Hi Everyone,
I'm Daryl and I'm with the Hewlett-Packard Company Archives. David Collins 
forwarded your email to me in the event that the archives might be interested 
in acquiring this impressive collection that is listed below.
I'm going to forward this to our archives team to have them give their input on 
which of these instruments we would be most interested in and then get back to 
you. Provided, that this inventory is still available.

I look forward to staying in touch.

Daryl

Daryl Faulkner
Account Director

Heritage Werks, Inc.
Specialists in Archival Services
503.501.9216 (cell)
daryl.faulk...@heritagewerks.com
HeritageWerks.com

Legally privileged/confidential information may be contained in this message. 
It is intended solely for the addressee(s); access to anyone else is 
unauthorized. If this message has been sent to you in error, do not review, 
disseminate, distribute or copy it. Please reply to the sender that you have 
received the message in error, and then delete it. Thank you.

From: David Collins 
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2022 10:09 PM
To: Daryl Faulkner 
Subject: [EXTERNAL]Fwd: [cctalk] HP 2000 hardware in Salt Lake

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

FYI in case you are after more HP kit!
-- Forwarded message -
From: Tim Riker via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>>
Date: Tue, 20 Sept 2022 at 11:22
Subject: [cctalk] HP 2000 hardware in Salt Lake
To: mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>>
Cc: Tim Riker mailto:t...@rikers.org>>


All,

I'm not getting around to working on this hardware. Another potential
move coming up. What's the interest level out there for HP 1000/2000
hardware?

Computers:

  * HP-2116A 8kB - the original HP computer. There is only one other
that I am aware of in existence. David Collins got theirs up and
running. Mine still blows fuses on startup.
  * 
http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=95
  * HP-2100A - untested
  * HP-2108 - working last I checked 64kB (I might keep this one)
  * HP-2112 - working last I checked 64kB

Others:

  * HP-7901A disc drive - untested (2.5mB)
  * HP-7900A disc drive - untested, with external power supply (5mB)
  * HP-7900A disc drive - untested, with external power supply
  * HP-2748B paper tape reader - spins up, does not seem to pass data
  * CCC tape punch - untested
  * HP-2761A Optical Mark Reader - punch card reader. loading wheel
turned to goo long ago. probably restorable
  * card slot expansion chassis. I forget the part number.
  * dual 3 1/2" drive in hpio chassis might someday work with these systems
  * non-hp 19" rack holding most equipment
  * lot's of peripheral cards including interfaces for disc drives,
punch, tape, card, etc.

Photos on Google Photos. My Gallery App is down at the moment.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ry648oCejfmjnuNf9

I'd guess it's about 1500 pounds of hardware. So, pickup in Salt Lake only.

[cctalk] Re: Large private collections

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 10/18/22 12:21, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:

I went to the Large Scale Systems Museum in New Kensington, PA (USA) a few
weeks ago. I've never seen such a large collection outside of the CHM in
Mountain View, CA (USA) but I've also only seen three collections haha.

The LSSM's main area was amazing (and most items are operational) but the
systems in their off-site storage area blew my mind...

Dave the curator is an endless well of knowledge, too. I highly recommend a
visit.


If you do, say Hello to some of the stuff that came from my collection
the last time I had to move.  :-)

bill

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 10/18/22 11:43, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
All you need is a the local government to declare eminent domain and 
greater user for the public good.




As the people and businesses along I-83 in Harrisburg, PA will
gladly tell you.  :-)

bill

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

All you need is a the local government to declare eminent domain and 
greater user for the public good.


On 10/18/2022 9:36 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:

Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean.

Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for
people taking your land.

--
Will

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:15 AM Ethan O'Toole  wrote:

Own your land.
Museum or individual.

You never own your land. They can always take it.

 - Ethan

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[John Foust via cctalk]

At 09:15 AM 10/18/2022, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
>>Own your land.
>>Museum or individual.
>
>You never own your land. They can always take it.

Far more probable than someone taking your property?  Wanting to give it up.
Needing to give it up.  Or your death, and then someone else wants and needs 
to get rid of it.

A year ago today, someone made a great offer on my office building and I had
less than 30 days to move out 30 years and 4,500 square feet of crap.  
I managed to down-size into about 1,500 square feet.

- John

[cctalk] Re: Large private collections

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

I have seen system source both the museum part and the warehouse in the
back.  The rhode island.museum and warehouse is probably larger.  Not that
system source is not substantial.
Bill


Ohhh yea, you might of visited System Source before the expansion. Did you 
see the Cray 1? There is the Cray room now with the raised floor. Also 
Xerox Altos systems and all that. Tons of other systems with that haul 
(800+?)


- Ethan


--
: Ethan O'Toole

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2022-10-18 10:57 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:




On Oct 18, 2022, at 10:01 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk  
wrote:

On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:

Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:




On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk  
wrote:

Hi all,

After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the 
(perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the 
Soviets.


That's definitely accurate.  I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones.

Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in
several variants. ...
The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1806VM2
etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
the T11.


J11?


Single package, multiple die.  Same goes for F11.



Oops, yes forgot about that. More coffee needed.

--T


paul

[cctalk] Re: Large private collections

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

I went to the Large Scale Systems Museum in New Kensington, PA (USA) a few
weeks ago. I've never seen such a large collection outside of the CHM in
Mountain View, CA (USA) but I've also only seen three collections haha.

The LSSM's main area was amazing (and most items are operational) but the
systems in their off-site storage area blew my mind...

Dave the curator is an endless well of knowledge, too. I highly recommend a
visit.

=]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 12:03 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk 
wrote:

> I have seen system source both the museum part and the warehouse in the
> back.  The rhode island.museum and warehouse is probably larger.  Not that
> system source is not substantial.
> Bill
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 9:26 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > > I suspect Jim Austin has one of the largest collections that's publicly
> > > documented...
> > > https://www.computermuseum.org.uk/
> > > .. but many are very private about what they own
> > > Dave
> >
> > Indeed! Looking down their list it's quite impressive but I think System
> > Source has them beat. I don't see a list of systems on the system source
> > website though so I have to go from memory and what I know.
> >
> > Not sure how big the collections are behind the scenes at Living Computer
> > Museum, CHM or that place down in Georgia. And who knows how many other
> > Computer Reset Warehouses are out there that we don't know about.
> >
> > --
> > : Ethan O'Toole
> >
> >
> >
>

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Holm Tiffe via cctalk]

Eugene? Most people that are named Eugene (or Eugen in German) are
descendands of russian people or russians...and named Jewegeny. :-)

Excellent is ...wrong, starting at the point that the eniac should be
the first electronic calculator, it wasn't.

There are more faults. The cause for the lag in computing technology in
the east is simple: the planned economy, not the decision to use one or
another memory technology.
The CMEA decided to build computer components in countries w/o any
experience in HiTec, as an example it was forbidden to produce magnet
tapes in the GDR (cars with 4 cycle engines too and more than 100HP was
forbidden too), tapes and disks should be produced in bulgaria..for
all of the CMEA countries. What do you expect then to come out?

Regards,
Holm




W2HX via cctalk wrote:

> This is an excellent video on the history of Soviet computing and the causes 
> of their lagging behind the west. I cannot comment on the accuracy since I am 
> no expert in this subject. But a very interesting and informative video. 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8 
> 
> 73 Eugene W2HX
> Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Joshua Rice via cctalk  
> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 7:52 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Cc: Joshua Rice 
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Holm Tiffe via cctalk" 
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> 
> Cc: "Holm Tiffe" 
> Sent: Tuesday, 18 Oct, 2022 At 08:45
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
> Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
> Hi all,
> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the 
> (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the 
> Soviets.
> I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor 
> documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite 
> not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
> However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18-bit or 
> 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather lacklustre 
> success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less demand for an 
> 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard to believe 
> that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and
> PDP-10 machines would have been attempted.
> Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
> Cheers,
> Josh Rice
> Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that russians 
> or the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own systems of 
> computers, that's simply wrong.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean a 
> 1-to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC clone" 
> is still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs.
> 
> I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their own 
> machines, but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more valuable 
> to copy western designs than design their own domestic architectures from 
> scratch. There was also plenty of designs that were literal "clones", down to 
> the silicon gates.
> 
> Cheers, Josh
> 

-- 
   Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
i...@tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741

[cctalk] Re: Large private collections

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

I have seen system source both the museum part and the warehouse in the
back.  The rhode island.museum and warehouse is probably larger.  Not that
system source is not substantial.
Bill

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 9:26 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > I suspect Jim Austin has one of the largest collections that's publicly
> > documented...
> > https://www.computermuseum.org.uk/
> > .. but many are very private about what they own
> > Dave
>
> Indeed! Looking down their list it's quite impressive but I think System
> Source has them beat. I don't see a list of systems on the system source
> website though so I have to go from memory and what I know.
>
> Not sure how big the collections are behind the scenes at Living Computer
> Museum, CHM or that place down in Georgia. And who knows how many other
> Computer Reset Warehouses are out there that we don't know about.
>
> --
> : Ethan O'Toole
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Holm Tiffe via cctalk]

Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean 
> a 1-to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC 
> clone" is still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs.

Ok, sounds better, but the russians rolled out ther own CPUs too, that
makes a lot of difference in my eyes.

> 
> I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their 
> own machines, but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more 
> valuable to copy western designs than design their own domestic 
> architectures from scratch. There was also plenty of designs that were 
> literal "clones", down to the silicon gates.
> 
> Cheers, Josh
> 

>From what I read in the last 20 years I would state that the PDP11's are
far more spread all over the country as they where in the US. Belive it
or not.

Most of us know that the PDP11's archtecture is an elegant design and it
was the blueprint of Z8000 and MC68000 (MSP430). It must have had favored
from russian programmers..as I already wrote above even Tetris was
programmed on a russian PDP11.
...but this hasn't happened since the CPUs got copied, they rolled out
ther own thing.

Even the "cloned" Z80 from the former GDR wasn't a clone at all. Zilog
Z80 have Bugs in the Flag handling for example, which the GDR U880 has
corrected.
One must know what he is doing to do that.
The russians "cloned" CPUs that never existet in original.

Regards,
Holm

-- 
   Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
i...@tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> All you need is a the local government to declare eminent domain and
> greater user for the public good.

Those would be the "significant barriers to cross".

--
Will

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Holm Tiffe via cctalk]

Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:

> On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:
> > Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> > 
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk 
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the 
> >>> (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the 
> >>> Soviets.
> >>
> >> That's definitely accurate.  I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones.
> > 
> > Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in
> > several variants. ...
> > The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, 
> > N1806VM2
> > etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
> > the T11.
> > 
> 
> J11?
> 
> --Toby

Yes, K1836 series as far as I remember, but the K1801VM3 is a much more
developed CPU as the J11 is and is a single Chip CPU was the J11 is not.

Regards,
Holm

-- 
   Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
i...@tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[David Gesswein via cctalk]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 09:45:30AM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> There wasn't much demand to build an PDP8, 6 or 10, the 11 was much more
> intersting. BTW: As far as I heard some of the russian ICBM's using
> computers build from the more advanched russian "PDP11-clones".
> 

Saratov-2 seems to be PDP-8 "clone"

Has some similarity to PDP-8/L but not a physical clone. Assume was software
compatible.

https://rusue.com/cemetery-of-soviet-computers/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294204864659?hash=item447ff9f893:g:7IEAAOSwmzFhNXlC&amdata=enc%3AAQAH4POG7y32aJfTQvvfUd917XJgyMuzn3bC6ggTWUJ7kuxstYRdipmOJPc7e%2B%2BcGN8nMYqAC8QtvIxQCALYUJIBhz6Bn%2BJpTm9GDHlos2tz1WnQUz27s%2FbFXLFX0o9kU98y2S8z8zLoRCbygoCWFugy%2FMk0S2VwRVdbVAEAnwseLr0DfeEcTRgDcGE96cJHoNuHXU5TZyv2bd63EcNdVtj7g0hBKXXnoPJ0MuiFwRjQYgdRnD%2B0FS0cAfE1N%2FYuc6mOwQB1cm3pgkLDxW4sHJ9IkolGdpmpxkU4btt8XDF0n9PZ%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgLrMtv1g

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 18, 2022, at 10:01 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:
>> Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk 
  wrote:
 
 Hi all,
 
 After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the 
 (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the 
 Soviets.
>>> 
>>> That's definitely accurate.  I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones.
>> Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in
>> several variants. ...
>> The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, 
>> N1806VM2
>> etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
>> the T11.
> 
> J11?

Single package, multiple die.  Same goes for F11.

paul

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[W2HX via cctalk]

This is an excellent video on the history of Soviet computing and the causes of 
their lagging behind the west. I cannot comment on the accuracy since I am no 
expert in this subject. But a very interesting and informative video. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8 

73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos



-Original Message-
From: Joshua Rice via cctalk  
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 7:52 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Cc: Joshua Rice 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones




-- Original Message --
From: "Holm Tiffe via cctalk" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 

Cc: "Holm Tiffe" 
Sent: Tuesday, 18 Oct, 2022 At 08:45
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the 
(perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the 
Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor 
documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite not 
strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18-bit or 
36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather lacklustre 
success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less demand for an 
18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard to believe 
that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and
PDP-10 machines would have been attempted.
Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
Cheers,
Josh Rice
Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that russians or 
the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own systems of 
computers, that's simply wrong.


Hi,

I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean a 
1-to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC clone" is 
still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs.

I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their own 
machines, but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more valuable 
to copy western designs than design their own domestic architectures from 
scratch. There was also plenty of designs that were literal "clones", down to 
the silicon gates.

Cheers, Josh

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:

Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:





On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk  
wrote:

Hi all,

After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the 
(perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the 
Soviets.


That's definitely accurate.  I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones.


Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in
several variants. ...
The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1806VM2
etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
the T11.



J11?

--Toby

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean.
Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for
people taking your land.


And for the younger crowd it's very expensive now. Not like the old days 
(assuming you live near a job center.)


- Ethan

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

Don't be pedantic. You know what I mean.

Anyway, in the US, there are *significant* barriers to cross for
people taking your land.

--
Will

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:15 AM Ethan O'Toole  wrote:
>
> > Own your land.
> > Museum or individual.
>
> You never own your land. They can always take it.
>
> - Ethan
>

[cctalk] Re: Large private collections

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

I suspect Jim Austin has one of the largest collections that's publicly
documented...
https://www.computermuseum.org.uk/
.. but many are very private about what they own
Dave


Indeed! Looking down their list it's quite impressive but I think System 
Source has them beat. I don't see a list of systems on the system source 
website though so I have to go from memory and what I know.


Not sure how big the collections are behind the scenes at Living Computer 
Museum, CHM or that place down in Georgia. And who knows how many other 
Computer Reset Warehouses are out there that we don't know about.


--
: Ethan O'Toole

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

Own your land.
Museum or individual.


You never own your land. They can always take it.

- Ethan

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 18/10/2022 14:18, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

I assume the story about the message is accurate (I heard it from a senior guy 
at DEC who should know) but that doesn't mean it was actually cloned.  It seems 
to be an engineer reaction to hearing about their earlier work being stolen.

paul


Unless someone has gone to a good deal of trouble, then the story is 
true: https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html



Given what has been done for the Z80 and 6502, it should be possible to 
recreate an exact clone of a CVAX with just a little effort (:-)). I 
wonder if anyone has considered a MiSTer core for it?



Antonio



--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 18, 2022, at 2:57 AM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> ...
>> 
>> You probably have heard of the CVAX chip, where on the mask in microscopic 
>> lettering is the message, in Russian: "CVAX -- when you want to steal the 
>> very best".
> 
> Yes, but this was nonsense, the first VAX CPU Chip from USSR was an
> Equivalent of an VAX11/750..but the VAX11/750 never hat an single CPU
> Chip! The CPU consisted of large Boards full of TTL and Sequencers.
> Sorry...no clone. They used the DEC Processor Manual and build their own
> chips.

I assume the story about the message is accurate (I heard it from a senior guy 
at DEC who should know) but that doesn't mean it was actually cloned.  It seems 
to be an engineer reaction to hearing about their earlier work being stolen.

paul

[cctalk] Re: seeking: vme chassis, in seattle

[Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk]

æstrid,
my institution is disposing of what I think is a VME chassis here in San 
Antonio. That is not particularly accessible by Seattle transit, but if you are 
willing and able to pay for shipping I think we can arrange to get it to you 
instead of our dumpster.
The unit has no power supply (room for two) and is missing most of its 
close-out panels. I think it’s mostly just a box and rack-mount rails, but it 
does have what looks to me like a VME backplane in it.
It’s heavy and oversized for just the VME cards - maybe an 8U rack mount box? 
At least 18” tall. So shipping may not be a reasonable thing, I don’t know.
Let me know if you are interested, and I think I can get photos of it tomorrow 
or today.
- Mark
210-522-6025 office

On Oct 11, 2022, at 5:24 PM, æstrid smith via cctalk 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

hi folks,

i'm looking for a vme chassis.  i have a we 321sb vme cpu card
(derivative of a 3b2) and it wants to run!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3b2-vme.jpg

not super picky about the details but if it matches aesthetically that
would be neat.  should be functional, i'd rather not start another
electronics project right now.  also interested in peripheral cards.

ideally, somewhere in seattle that's reasonably accessible by transit,
or if you're willing to ship that would work too.

thanks!

--
æstrid smith (she/her)
=<[ c y b e r ]>=
antique telephone collectors association member #4870

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Joshua Rice via cctalk]

-- Original Message --
From: "Holm Tiffe via cctalk" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 


Cc: "Holm Tiffe" 
Sent: Tuesday, 18 Oct, 2022 At 08:45
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the 
(perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by 
the Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite 
poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, 
depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 
18-bit or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the 
rather lacklustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have 
been less demand for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i 
find it quite hard to believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and 
PDP-10 machines would have been attempted.

Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
Cheers,
Josh Rice
Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that
russians or the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own
systems of computers, that's simply wrong.


Hi,

I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean 
a 1-to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC 
clone" is still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs.


I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their 
own machines, but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more 
valuable to copy western designs than design their own domestic 
architectures from scratch. There was also plenty of designs that were 
literal "clones", down to the silicon gates.


Cheers, Josh

[cctalk] Re: Large private collections

[Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: Ethan O'Toole via cctalk 
> Sent: 18 October 2022 06:45
> To: Bill Degnan via cctalk 
> Cc: Ethan O'Toole 
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Large private collections
> 
> > However you define it, who has the largest private collections?  Is
> > there anyone who claims to have the largest private collection?  I
> > hypothesize that there is a terminal size where it becomes
> > unmanageable.
> > Bill
> 
> Largest one I know of would by System Source in Maryland?
> 
> And an awesome one at that.
> 
>   - Ethan

I suspect Jim Austin has one of the largest collections that's publicly
documented...

https://www.computermuseum.org.uk/

.. but many are very private about what they own

Dave

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Holm Tiffe via cctalk]

Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:

> Hi all, 
> 
> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the 
> (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the 
> Soviets. 
> 
> I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor 
> documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite 
> not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
> 
> However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18-bit or 
> 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather lacklustre 
> success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less demand for an 
> 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard to believe 
> that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10 machines would have been 
> attempted. 
> 
> Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
> 
> Cheers, 
> 
> Josh Rice

Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that
russians or the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own
systems of computers, that's simply wrong.
The demand for "clones" are only existed since it was pretty much
ineffective to develop all the interesting software for all the own
stuff again, you know there are many man years necessary..in the east
and in the west. Software clould easily copied, harware couldn't, it
has to be build. Therefore it isn't effective to clone parts that aren't
available locally, where other parts that could do the job are.
Therefore most of the machines aren't clones.
(don't come and say that copying software is illegal, there was not
only one illegal thing that NSA/CIA/GCHQ has done to that time, so why
don't do the same? It where totally different economical systems)

The PDP11 architecture looked interesting, so they build compatible
computers, not clones, on that this software could run.
The soviet SM-1420 (~ PDP11/34) (Wikipedia stated that they where build
in the former GDR also, wich is simply wrong) used AM2901 compatible
Chips to build the CPU (not the FPU!), which wasn't done from DEC in
any of ther PDP11's as far as I know.
Things got "cloned" by reading the manuals and developing an own
hardware that fits and used available parts.

There wasn't much demand to build an PDP8, 6 or 10, the 11 was much more
intersting. BTW: As far as I heard some of the russian ICBM's using
computers build from the more advanched russian "PDP11-clones".

Regards,
Holm

-- 
   Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
i...@tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Holm Tiffe via cctalk]

Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:
[..]

For the GDR I don't know of any PDP8 clones, There was the "Kleinrechner
Systeme K4100 and K4200", don't know much about the first one, but the
2nd was compatible to the honeywell DDP516 Series, no clone in any way,
they are totally different from the in- and the outside. The Bigger
machines from the ESER Series Mainfraimes where compatible to the 3270
but no "clones" either.

For the Robotron K1630 (K1600 PDP11 systems) existed an Hardware
emulator PCB set that could emulate the K4200 on this machine..faster
then the original.

Regards,
Holm

-- 
   Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
i...@tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741

[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones

[Holm Tiffe via cctalk]

Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> 
> 
> > On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Hi all, 
> > 
> > After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the 
> > (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the 
> > Soviets. 
> 
> That's definitely accurate.  I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones.

Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in
several variants. There are the DVKs https://www.wikiwand.com/en/DVK,
the Elektronika BK Homecomputer
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK
or the school computer UKNS 
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/UKNC

(C means an S in cyrillic letters)

I own an Elektronika E60 which is an LSI11 Computer, but all Connectors
and Board dimensions are metric. The PCB's are not "clones", that are
developments from USSR with their own chips.
This was the machine on which tetris got developed!

The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1806VM2
etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
the T11.

> 
> > I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor 
> > documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite 
> > not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
> 
> You probably have heard of the CVAX chip, where on the mask in microscopic 
> lettering is the message, in Russian: "CVAX -- when you want to steal the 
> very best".

Yes, but this was nonsense, the first VAX CPU Chip from USSR was an
Equivalent of an VAX11/750..but the VAX11/750 never hat an single CPU
Chip! The CPU consisted of large Boards full of TTL and Sequencers.
Sorry...no clone. They used the DEC Processor Manual and build their own
chips.
The K1801VM3 can address 4Mbyte of Memory.

This is an Elektronika MK90  using an CMOS H1806VM2 CPU.. not really
a clone ehy?
https://elektronika.su/en/calculators/elektronika-mk-90/
MK85 is a smaller variant.

Same for the GDR, There was an PDP11 build from 8 Bit Bitslice
Processors, the Robotron K1600. They used 2708 like Eproms for the
Control store and the sequencers...this was the worlds slowest PDP11..

For a relativly short Time I was Adminstrator on a Robotron K1840
at the university of mining in Freiberg. The RVS K1840 was a direct
Clone of a DEC VAX11/780, Boards where interchangeable with the
original.
Later the ZMD Dresden produced a clone of the VAX 78032 Chip, the
U80701. This is a MV-II CPU.


> > However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18-bit 
> > or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather 
> > lacklustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less 
> > demand for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite 
> > hard to believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10 machines 
> > would have been attempted. 
> > 
> > Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
> 
> Here's something:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_Computer_Factory
> 
> That's not the only Soviet clone factory, but it's an interesting one.  I 
> have a brochure from them, which I think I got when they visited DEC in the 
> 1980s (which takes some chutzpah!).  The brochure is not all that clear, but 
> the Wikipedia article says their 32-bit machine "SM 1700" is a VAX clone.  
> Apparently a number of their other machines were not clones but original 
> designs.
> 
>   paul

Sorry, I have no idea about PDP8 or PDP10 clones.

Regards,
Holm
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