No food/drinks in the terminal room, was Re: Looking for Apollo Workstations for TV show
On 03/13/2017 14:09, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > ... except > some of the actors have a penchant for putting food or beverages on top > of various units which -- I don't know about you -- makes me fidgety. In other words, the same penchant -- and response -- as when these units were new... Some things never change. ;) --S.
Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
Sorry, forgot - Alphas! Two DEC 3000 model 400, one DEC 3000 model 600, one DEC 3000 model 600S, and an AlphaServer 600 IIRC. VAXserver 3300 VAX 4000 model 300 DECtalk DTC01 numerous DEC BA42 DEC "leprechaun" boxes (think VAXstation 2000) Mac 7200/90 5-10 color CRTs - VRT19, VR299, VR290 Couple smaller HP-badged Trinitrons TEK 454 Summasketch 2 w/ cursor Many cables, disks, other random bits!
Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
>> Link to some photos I took: >> https://www.flickr.com/... > > The link is 404 for me. > will look for the other post. Sigh. Looks like default permissions weren't "public", but Flickr/Yahoo is also suggesting this heretofore alien URL format: https://www.flickr.com/gp/smj_crash/4bgzj2 Seems to work, though it looks like it's just a redirect to a more common format... YMMV, --S.
Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA
On 05/24/2017 02:16, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > I'm surprised to see a swedish keyboard there :) And I thought it was important to include that keyboard, because somebody somewhere must be in a real jam if they need one... > What is a PCM-12 ? It appears to be a PDP-8 clone based on the Intersil 6100. I just now found this link to a better-preserved example: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/PCM12/ I've put photos of the unit I picked up here (more link variations from Flickr): https://flic.kr/s/aHskX3uiy4 --S.
Re: post from classiccmp.org: Dr. Dobb's Developer Library DVD 6
On 07/17/2017 14:36, John Greve via cctalk wrote: > > Did you ever find a usable source? I never did find an ISO image of DDJ DVD 6. I had found numerous torrent links too, but none that I checked were still retrievable. Haven't checked the link(s) Graham Toal offered. --S.
VCF West: 90's Workstations On Consignment for $5 each
I've loaded up the car and will be putting the following in the Consignment Room at VCF West in the morning. These were all rescued from Mesa Electronics a couple months ago. I'm asking for a $5 donation to VCFed for 24 of these items, just to support the event (one is free). There are multiple examples of most of these: - Personal DECstation 5000/25 (MIPS) - DECstation 5000/1xx (MIPS) - DECstation 5000/240 (MIPS) - DEC 3000/300 (Alpha) - DEC 3000/400 (Alpha) - DEC 3000/600 (Alpha) - HP 712/80 (PA-RISC) - HP 715/80 (PS-RISC) - IBM POWERstation 230 (RS/6000) Hope to see you there, --Steve.
Re: A Mystery
On 10/10/2017 12:17, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > The /RC was (apparently) for "Reduced Connectivity" or some such. The RC stood for Restricted Configuration. (I didn't remember it correctly either.) https://books.google.com/books?id=Sr4cRFxEX7QC&lpg=PA15&ots=5XAty8lkUd&dq=VAXstation%20II%2FRC&pg=PA15#v=onepage&q&f=false There were heated debates about whether this was blatant contempt for and cheating of the customer, or a reasonable tactic that enabled DEC to offer a useful product at a market-expanding lower price-point than it could have justified otherwise. I'm sure somebody spelunking in Google/Deja News or deep in DECUS' NOTES-11 boards could find several passionate exchanges... > The smarter customers noticed that they could save a good chunk of cash > by ordering a VS2/RC and then separately ordering a replacement backplane. > DEC noticed that one quite quickly! Indeed they did. And whatever DEC might have done to counter it, like threatening your field service contract or hiking parts prices, you had other options. One example, a Zoltech replacement backplane for $269 in 1987: https://books.google.com/books?id=M8uwmICKZwMC&lpg=PP74&ots=-WZxlHuUOt&dq=VAXstation%20II%2FRC&pg=PP74#v=onepage&q=VAXstation%20II/RC&f=false On 10/10/2017 12:51, allison via cctalk wrote: > > Memory says: it was MICROVAX/RT and the cpu had a reduced instruction > set and was used with ELN/PASCAL. IT was a reduced capability > machine. As I recollect it used the same KA630/M7606, and any peripherals were the same as other Mayflower machines. The entire gimmick was that you had three fewer Q/Q slots and an RC on the badge. Therefore no difference in the level of ISA subsetting, but I think it would have been an attractive target for VAXELN applications. ISTR there were later products that were limited to VAXELN, but can't recall any designations... --S.
Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 64, Issue 3
On 01/05/2020 07:02, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
OS/2 was to be morphed into a cross-platform o/s,
>> to wean folks from dos/x86.
>
True, but what few remember now is that as well as OS/2 1 (80286) and
OS./2 2 (80386), there was also OS/2 3 (CPU-independent). It was
initially developed for Intel i810 RISC boxes, the N-10 series, so it
was renamed OS/2 NT and later Windows NT... and here we are with it
running on a billion computers.
Just to clarify, the reference to "i810 RISC" should be the i860
("N-10"), their second general-purpose RISC design - versus the 960MX
from the BiiN project with Siemens in the mid-80s as their first (?),
which would become the i960 that was popular in embedded applications.
--S.
Re: LINC-8
On 04/26/2020 13:38, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: Wow: https://www.ebay.com/itm/353062352448 I've read manuals for these, but I've never even seen a picture of one before. They had one of these in use at the William Penn Charter School (K-12 prep school) in Philadelphia through the early 1980s. When in use, I believe it was paired with a Teletype, I would guess a 33 variant but the memories are fuzzy. I mis-remembered the name for years as a LINC-5 -- understandably confusing to folks who usually expressed polite disbelief when I would describe it... It was left in the "computer room" (e.g. large closet) and neglected after the last class using it graduated, while younger students were exclusively using the handful of Apple IIs sharing the space. I'm afraid the LINC was picked apart by bored students, who liked to pull out Flip Chips, glance at the components on them, and let the cards pile up in the bottom of the rack... Then it disappeared over break or summer vacation one year, don't recall which. --S.
Re: Ok, got the Perq tapes
On 04/26/2020 16:33, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Ok, so this evening I went back to the house to do a quick evacuation of the most critical stuff and take some better pictures. This time I brought a massive xeon flashlight which helps to get quicker pictures with less shake. Thank you for doing this and for sharing the photos! Pics 276 & 277 feature a two-enclosure Dynabyte Business Computers system. I wasn't sure of the manufacturer but you can just make out the address zooming in to one of the labels, and the BYTE, and that's enough for Google to do the rest. Oh, well 278 has a very readable DYNABYTE label, albeit with a different address. Heh, looks like that BA11-VA made it into the... Say, is that a 928? Nice, this load is traveling in style! And the sharkmouth sticker makes more sense. (I've made more than one rescue pickup in a 944S or 968 over the years.) --S.
Network gear that supported StarLAN 1 (not 10)
I was wondering if anybody remembers which networking vendors supported StarLAN 1, or 802.3e / 1Base5, back in the 1980s? Hoping to get product names and/or model numbers. I've come across some references to Western Digital, Micom-Interlan, Cross Comm Corp (Massachusetts), and Fox Research (later DCA?) possibly having offered products to bridge StarLAN to Ethernet. But in the few cases where I've seen a model (ex. Cross Comm 487 Series) I haven't been able to get past blurbs in Info World. I have one host interface, expect more to arrive shortly, and would love to track down a bridge/switch/router that might allow me to make them reachable from Ethernet. Thanks, --Steve.
Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next morning the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..."
Re: The best hard drives??
On 11/16/20 7:27 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability being number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what would you folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? Not an expert, but I'm as dependent on spinning rust as everybody else... HGST has gotten my vote and a considerable amount of my money over the years. I favored their 2.5" IDE and then SATA drives for ages, back to before they bought the business from IBM. BackBlaze reporting was a factor in switching to HGST/Toshiba 3.5" 3TB drives many years ago from Seagate, when Toshiba was producing the HGST design after some complicated deal splitting up HGST's product lines. More recently I upgraded my main array to HGST He8 drives, and picked up a box of NOS 600GB 2.5" SAS drives for system disks. All of these are used in ZFS raidz2 setups in HP rackmount servers/JBODs 2-3 versions behind current. --S.
Re: Keyboard storage
On 12/22/20 12:24 AM, Patrik Schindler via cctalk wrote: I’m storing keyboards openly in a shelf, vertical, standing on the small edge. I alternate them front-back so the slope of the keys array is compensating itself. Aside from some dust, the packing density is really good. And on 12/22/20 6:11 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: Unfortunately, since I live on a gravel road, dust is a huge problem here, so I need an enclosed solution. "Dishpack" boxes from movers or moving supply stores are one enclosed option, if you store the keyboards on-end as Patrik described. Or try using plastic storage bins with lids from the local Target/Walmart-equivalent. Each costs anywhere from $5-12 depending on size, sturdiness, and the occasional sale. Within the tub/bin the keyboards are arranged on the long edge, rather than flat. If the bin is tall enough, some cardboard allows for a second layer. --S.
Re: Tubbs fire consumed the collected archives of William Hewlett and David Packard
General comment to several earlier replies re: Bitsavers-type efforts. The tragedy here is not that some copies of uncommon but otherwise extant product documentation were lost. From the description, there were a large number of unique, individual documents created by significant historical figures. Fair bet that many of these didn't exist anywhere else. Certainly not if it included drafts of speeches and correspondence, as well as the final copy, etc. A better question (not that it does any good to ask it now) is why this stuff wasn't in the hands of university conservators or similar. I love bitsavers and warchive.org, but this is a level beyond what they typically focus on. (And to be sure, CHM would have at least kept such artifacts safe even if they couldn't do anything with them for a few years/decades.) Sigh. And I don't really mean to criticize anybody at Keysight, humans are generally bad at recognizing and planning for this kind of contingency - and I'm probably worst than most... --S.
Bringing up the Sprite OS (Berkeley)
I'm not sure where one might normally expect to discuss research operating systems from the 1980s and 90s, but since it ran on Sun-2 through Sun-4 and DECstations, I'll start here. I have the Sprite disk image for the DECstation 5000/200 running under GXemul (see https://github.com/OSPreservProject/sprite), but this is a minimal ~80MB image. I'm wondering if anybody has already gone through the exercise of figuring out how to create a new disk image large enough to, for example, load the source tree and see how far it is from compiling. My calendar is full until mid-December, so I won't be taking a swing at this in the next few weeks. But I had a moment and thought I'd start asking if anybody's been down this road in the past decade or two. Thanks, --S.
Re: CX laser printers (Was: Sun3 valuations?
On 01/22/2018 11:14, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: For a brief while, the LaserWriter was the fastest, most powerful computer in Apple's limeup. If you are crazy enough, You can communicate directly with it and program in Postscript (similar to Forth) Heck, it was faster than the Macs, PCs, and the VAX-11/750 we had! At least for one storage-free job at a time. A few of my fellow students (hello D Fischer) who fiddled with Postscript would download jobs to compute and print fractals that would run overnight on the printer... and much of the following day, in some cases. --S.
8" floppy drives from AMD development system?
Anybody notice this eBay auction? https://cgi.ebay.com/itm/222816138475 I'd guess it was part of a packaged AMD development system, maybe somebody recalls some specifics...? Or maybe that it was something else? Google is returning a lot about Age-related Macular Degeneration, and other misses where they helpfully turn "AMD" into "and" ... Thanks, --S.
Re: 8" floppy drives from AMD development system?
On 02/07/2018 08:46, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: AMD made a whole Multibus product line covered in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/amd/multibus in particular AMD_Multibus_OEM_Products_May84.pdf Spot-on, thanks Al! Pictured on page 3-2 (aka 95 in xpdf). When in doubt, check Bitsavers... ;)
Re: Unix-PC
On 03/23/2018 14:32, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: I will take it if no one else does, but where is it, missed this thread Most recent reference I could find was May 2017: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2017-May/034691.html Bill appears to be located near Scranton, PA. If I were within a couple hundred miles, I'd be writing to him instead of the list... ;) Good luck, --Steve.
LISP microcode for an 11/730? Was Re: Modifying microcode
On 06/02/2018 11:08, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: I've heard a persistent rumor over the years that the WPS/8 and PDP-8 software group at DEC had modified the 730's microcode to support a PDP-8 emulation [...] I wasn't able to find a reference to back it up, but if we're sharing faintly remembered rumors -- I recall hearing that some grad students had developed alternate microcode for the 11/730 to re-purpose it as a LISP machine. I use the lowercase "M" on purpose, I don't recall that it emulated the various 36-bit machines known as LISP Machines specifically. Just that it was a native LISP execution environment of some kind. That's all I've got. Not even an institution, though I have a very tenuous notion that UMass Amherst might have been mentioned... --S.
Re: LISP microcode for an 11/730? Was Re: Modifying microcode
On 06/15/2018 08:28, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > I wasn't able to find a reference to back it up, but ... Sorry for the delay - that was stuck in my Outbox over a two week business trip...
Re: ISO: Blue (usually) Silicone? tape retainer material
On 08/07/2018 18:54, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I recall that new tapes would often come with a strip of (usually blue) silicone-ish tape ... Yes, I remember those. Don't have a source for exactly equivalent material, but you might be able to use 3-5 mil sign vinyl if you could get it without the adhesive on one side. I think I've seen it in kids' toys of the era, where various patterned pieces were cut from the stuff and assembled on something akin to a whiteboard. The brand I'm remembering from the 1970s was Colorforms. Apparently still a thing. The www.colorforms.com site is alive. --S.
Re: 70's computers
On 10/29/2018 05:28, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: Does anyone know why they didn't catch on? Was it something like 'commodity 'ordinary' processors became so cheap one could build large parallel machines out of them, and each node had a lot more computing capability', or something like that? My best recollection as a distant observer, for the neural/cognitive modeling it was conceived for, there weren't enough labs with enough grant money to support the company. And as part of the "general" supercomputer segment there were limited problems you could address with the original 1-bit CPU model, and producing code for it was a big challenge coming from more traditional systems. A lot of that may have been alleviated with the later designs built on mainstream (SPARC, Alpha) CPUs, but by then I think there were more alternatives chasing those dollars. And the company's, er, management issues were not helping. Some links for further reading: "Rise and Fall of Thinking Machines" - https://www.inc.com/magazine/19950915/2622.html MIT CSAIL "Final Report" - http://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.972/TMC%20Corp.html I wonder how many CM's are still in existence at this point? That's an interesting question. The same challenges for other big iron come into play, including critical dependence on a FEP from Symbolics, DEC, Sun, HP, etc. --S.
Re: Books available ACM CALGO Vols I, II, III, loosleaf+microfice
Hi Chuck, On 10/30/2018 09:15, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Anyone interested in three hardbound volumes of ACM CALGO, starting with Algorithm 1, plus a large looseleaf binder and assorted microfiche (assuming that I can still find them)? Drop me a line if so. Sure, I'm curious. When you unearth them, I'd provide a home. Be advised I'm heading to Japan for two weeks on Saturday, so I may ask that they be shipped to my office (well, I might do that anyway...). LMK, --S. -- Steven M Jones CRASH Computing e: s...@crash.com
gcc-1.34 source?, was Re: old gcc #pragma handling
On 01/29/2019 14:53, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: But I cannot find gcc 1.34. ftp.gnu.org has gcc-1.30.atari (where the sequence doesn't exist), and gcc-1.35 (where it's "#if 0"ed). Does anyone know where to find the source code of gcc 1.34? I'm not positive that this is "pure" gcc 1.34, and not altered for this "Cross compiling environment to DJGPP v1" project on SourceForge, but it's the only source I could find: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crossdjgppv1/files/GNU%20Source/gcc-1.34.tar.bz2/download Contents of the README in the tarball: This directory contains the version 1.34 test release of the GNU C compiler. All bugs reported for previous test releases have been fixed. Some bugs surely remain. See the file gcc.texinfo for installation and porting information. The file INSTALL contains a copy of the installation information. The GNU C compiler is free software. See the file COPYING for copying permission. Good luck, --S.
Re: Refillable spray can
> Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even. > How about a cheap airbrush kit? Reminds me of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as needed. I've taken a superficial look or three over the years, but haven't found another. And I've mislaid the one from years back, so I don't have a brand or product name. Anybody have a line on that sort of thing? Maybe what Fred linked will serve... --S.
Re: Nat Semi 16032 info discovered
On 04/29/2019 09:30, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: I just found a binder with about an inch of fanfold printouts of all the device drivers, low-level system routines, boot loaders, etc in c source format. So, it might be tricky to scan and OCR it without training the OCR. Not sure anybody would be interested in it, anyway. Well, I have an abiding interest in the Nat Semi 32k series. I'm not connected to it, but the website http://cpu-ns32k.net seems to indicate there are others. So I'd say the code is worth trying to preserve, as I don't know how much source code of any kind related to Genix and the systems it ran on might still be out there... --S. PS - If anybody's got ns32k hardware, I'm interested... ;)
Re: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
On 05/31/2019 08:58, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: On 5/30/19 11:57 PM, Warner Losh wrote: I had it enabled on my FreeBSD boxes and got monthly usage stats. I did it to make sure that there were no weird users with time, and that the typical usage was "what I expected". Never detected anything amiss with this, and at some point I retired all those old boxes and with them the monthly reporting email. This use case seems similar to what I did with disk quotas, or at least why. Sort of a safety measure / monitoring. Not actually using it for (internal funny money) billing purposes. I believe I've heard about a couple instances where PA was used for health checks, load distribution, etc for "web-scale" applications on thousands of servers running Linux. ISTR in one case it was only enabled when needed for tracking down an issue? But this is hearsay, I'm not involved in any of the above projects/apps. But no, not for chargeback so far as I know. I only saw that sort of use in academia similar to what others have mentioned - departmental budgeting, grant accounting, etc. --S.
Re: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR
On 06/28/2019 11:11, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 28mm, resp.). Oh, I know. I was questioned by the RCMP for spending a $2 bill that was in my leftover Canadian cash from a previous trip years before. Two weeks ago I was in London, and had brought my pound notes/coins from a visit a few years earlier. When trying to buy lunch, the cashier refused my £10 note since new £5 and £10 notes had been issued over a year before. I was advised I could change it at a bank... So the next day I stopped at a Metro Bank outlet on my way to our local office, but was told they'd only change notes for account holders -- which I can guarantee you I will now never be. But I was told I could go to the Bank of England and they'd change it. The BoE was probably only 20 minutes away by Tube, but I wasn't trying to turn this exchange into a side-quest. :^/ I still have the £10 note. In theory I might be able to exchange it by snail mail, but haven't looked into it yet... --S.
Re: VCF West?
On 07/30/2019 23:43, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Is there a reason why there has been no mention of VCF West? (other than Apple oneS) Isn't it scheduled for this coming weekend? On Tuesday a colleague at $WORK reposted the Hackaday announcement, and he's far from the ccmp crowd. So word is getting around a little bit. Evan's blog post didn't include a link to buy tickets, though the full event page does. They are being handled through EventBrite: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/vintage-computer-festival-west-tickets-63097131218 Exhibit list looks nicely varied, though it would have been nice to see an exhibit and/or talk about Bill Godbout and the role he played. (Yeah yeah, I can already hear somebody saying, "DIY!") --S.
Re: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question
On 08/15/2019 23:21, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: I have on several occasions posted appeals to this list for people to contribute content to it, and gotten almost no response (with one notable exception), in terms of added content; that was a large part of why I merely mentioned it in an offhand way. I don't want to discourage anybody from contributing to this or any other project. However... Imagine if you will that many people, over many years, put a lot of work into pulling information together on a site with forums, and then distilling that information into a lot of wiki pages. Many discussions in the forums, with hard-won facts and interesting projects documented there. Things the manufacturer(s) never admitted you could do! So many wiki pages carefully explaining things, recording specifications, procedures, configurations, part numbers, substitutions. An incredibly useful resource and a very active community. Then imagine that a law is passed in a far away land, and the site owner decides it's is too risky to bother with, and they then take the entire site down - wiki and fora - with no warning and no access to the material... I'm not arguing against community collaborations at all - I guess I'm mostly just venting my considerable spleen. :( But I would strongly suggest that if people are going to do something of the scale you describe, they might want to consider setting up a distribution or replication mechanism at their earliest convenience. --S.
Re: PBXes at home
On 09/19/2019 19:27, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: A number of years ago I picked up a Lucent Merlin Legend system. ... Around 2000 I picked up an expanded Nortel Compact ICS (CICS) with voice mail unit - might be the last thing I bought from a NetNews post. That was 8 analog CO lines and 24 extensions as received, with a tub of cables, phones, buttons, die-cut un-printed inserts, a few manuals, etc. Overkill for a four bedroom house with attached office, but it gave me all the features I wanted as a remote worker. I had the music on hold wired up, but stopped using it after one occasion where I put a staff meeting conference call on hold... When I finally acquired an ISDN line card years later I was very excited, but then I moved cross country before I put it into service. Maybe I should have tried to order ISDN at the new place but it was late 2005, and my DSL Internet service included an analog loop with free calling nationwide... Still using the CICS, having upgraded some handsets (M7310 -> T7316e) and the system software. --S.
Re: VCF west is happening this weekend
On 8/5/21 5:57 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: It will be at the CHM. The museum is still closed but VCF will be happening. To be consistent with current Santa Clara covid conditions, bring your mask. see: https://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/ I hope to see you all there. Bought my two day ticket a few weeks ago. Digging up some goodies for the consignment room now - Tek 454 & Dumont scopes, an Altos 5, an HP Z80 emulator, who knows what else will find it's way into the car... Plan to get there tomorrow circa 5PM to unload, unless that option's been revoked. --S.
[cctalk] Tektronix XP214M X Terminal (1994) is supported by XpressWare 6.3 (1993)
I recently picked up a Tektronix XP214M - a MIPS-based, monochrome X terminal from late 1994. I thought I was going to need XPressWare 7 or later, but I haven't been able to turn up anything like that except the 8.1 patches shared on this list a couple years ago (thanks Doc!). And something about the fragments I pulled out of that wasn't working... XpressWare 6.3 is available on Bitsavers (thanks Al!), but appears to date from October 1993. I thought that would be a non-starter, since it predated the announcement of the XP214 by a year. But the v8 docs, and NC Bridge docs from after NCD bought the Tek X terminal line, indicated the binaries for the XP350 were used for the XP200 models, and the terminal was loading the v8.1 "os.350" successfully, it just died later in the boot process... So I tried booting the terminal from the 6.3 tree, and it worked the first time. It may be possible to tease out what's missing or incorrectly placed from the v8.1 patch files, but I'm more concerned with getting something running where the X networking hasn't been neutered... FYI, --Steve.
