Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
> On May 23, 2015, at 12:40, Steven M Jones wrote: > >> (after I sell a few more kidneys, that is) > > Careful hunting on eBay can produce LTO-4 capabilities (0.8/1.6TB) for not > too many vital organs. Just make sure you've got a fibre channel or SAS > interface to talk to it. Right. Me being the smart, forward-thinking guy I'm not, I bought a nice, sexy Mac Pro, and then a nice little mid-range QNAP NAS that has neither fibre channel nor SAS capabilities before I determined that I really could use proper tape backup and started investigating what interfaces are suitable for that. There's one very nice-looking LTO-6 drive with a Thunderbolt interface that will plug into my Mac Pro. Lots of kidneys for that one! > >> ... but I'm still a bit suspicious of their similar (identical?) tape >> feeding scheme. All of my bad experience with things like QIC, DAT, etc. had >> led me to be very suspicious of tape systems other than 1/2" open reel. > > If you take a careful look at the TK and DLT mechanisms, I think you'll see > that they're an awful lot closer to an open reel design than any of the > cartridge designs (QIC, DAT, 8mm, AIT, etc). > > I'd never say they're perfect because that would immediately render all my > backups on any media unreadable. But if I have to trust a tape mechanism, > I'll stick with the TK-DLT-LTO line. Thank you for the reassurances about the mechanism family. That will help once I stumble over another cache of unguarded kidneys. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
On 05/23/2015 10:04, Mark J. Blair wrote: I'd like to get a modern DLT drive for my modern computer backups The current hotness is LTO (Linear Tape Open), I think LTO-5 gives you 3.0TB assuming 2:1 compression - and LTO-6 is probably the current flavor. (after I sell a few more kidneys, that is) Careful hunting on eBay can produce LTO-4 capabilities (0.8/1.6TB) for not too many vital organs. Just make sure you've got a fibre channel or SAS interface to talk to it. ... but I'm still a bit suspicious of their similar (identical?) tape feeding scheme. All of my bad experience with things like QIC, DAT, etc. had led me to be very suspicious of tape systems other than 1/2" open reel. If you take a careful look at the TK and DLT mechanisms, I think you'll see that they're an awful lot closer to an open reel design than any of the cartridge designs (QIC, DAT, 8mm, AIT, etc). I'd never say they're perfect because that would immediately render all my backups on any media unreadable. But if I have to trust a tape mechanism, I'll stick with the TK-DLT-LTO line. --S.
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
On 2015-05-23 19:04, Mark J. Blair wrote: I got my TK50 drive from eBay. Boy, that tape feeding mechanism sure looks screwy! I'd like to get a modern DLT drive for my modern computer backups (after I sell a few more kidneys, that is), but I'm still a bit suspicious of their similar (identical?) tape feeding scheme. All of my bad experience with things like QIC, DAT, etc. had led me to be very suspicious of tape systems other than 1/2" open reel. It's not that bad. The TK50 sometimes get the pickup unhooked from the arm, but once you realize how it works, it's really easy to fix it when that happens. Apart from that, the tape movement works fine. When the pickup lead gets unhooked you cannot even put a cartridge in. The other problem (as I mentioned) is dirty heads. That will cause the tape to fail to actually load, since the heads will move up and down trying to find track 1 and eventually give up. At which point you see it flashing quickly red on the load button. The third issue is a general problem with just one button expected to do all functions, and just one lamp in the button indicating issues. The drive can just get confused, and you cannot tell what it is doing, and it is not possible to unload the tape. Very annoying. You can usually solve that by power cycling the thing. This all worked better in the TK70. I guess they had to figure things out by trial and error. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
I got my TK50 drive from eBay. Boy, that tape feeding mechanism sure looks screwy! I'd like to get a modern DLT drive for my modern computer backups (after I sell a few more kidneys, that is), but I'm still a bit suspicious of their similar (identical?) tape feeding scheme. All of my bad experience with things like QIC, DAT, etc. had led me to be very suspicious of tape systems other than 1/2" open reel. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
On 05/21/2015 01:19 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: Am 20.05.15 um 22:41 schrieb Jon Elson: It largely depends on storage conditions. Sorry I can not afford a climate controlled cabinet. The tapes where stored in my "machine room", i.e. a normal bedroom in my flat. The "bad" conditions I mentioned were attics and damp basements. Any normal home environment should be quite good for tape storage. Jon
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
Am 20.05.15 um 21:11 schrieb Johnny Billquist: > Hmm. There might also be other issues when using a TZ30 as compared to a > TK50 here... I don't even remember how the TZ30 looks inside. There > might be rubber parts in there. No rubber. The tapes got stuck to the read-/write head. -- tschüß, Jochen
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
Am 20.05.15 um 22:41 schrieb Jon Elson: > It largely depends on storage conditions. Sorry I can not afford a climate controlled cabinet. The tapes where stored in my "machine room", i.e. a normal bedroom in my flat. -- tschüß, Jochen
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
On 2015-05-20 21:06, Jochen Kunz wrote: And my 9-track tapes are rotten to the point of uselessness too. They still worked most of the time about 10 years ago. It largely depends on storage conditions. I recently read some of my old backup tapes from the mid 1980's with no problem. The drive did a little bit of backing up and retrying, but I got 100% data recovery. I've had some other tapes that were not stored in proper conditions where all the oxide fell off and collected on the tape heads. (I'm referring to 9 track tapes, here.) Jon
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In case someone hasn't mentioned baking the tapes apparently an hour at 50 degc works wonders On 20 May 2015 20:48, "Johnny Billquist" wrote: > On 2015-05-20 21:36, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 5/20/15 12:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> There might be rubber parts in there. >>> >>> Nope, I like them better than TK50s, though, because you pop off the two >> C rings and the head assembly >> lifts up to clean, which is necessary after every tape you try to read. >> > > I think I have one or two TZ30 somewhere. Maybe I should look more at them. > But the TK50 is really easy to clean. You just remove the 3 screws that > holds the cover plate, and then you just clean the heads where they are. > > But yes, you do need to clean the heads a lot on those drives. I believe I > mentioned that in my original reply. :-) > > TK50 tapes stick or gum up at the ends just like QIC carts do. I haven't >> tried baking them. Thankfully >> there are almost none in the queue right now to read and hopefully it >> will stay that way. >> > > Interesting. I haven't seen that. And they construction is totally > different from QIC tapes as well, unless my memory is failing me even more. > > Johnny > >
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
On 2015-05-20 21:36, Al Kossow wrote: On 5/20/15 12:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: There might be rubber parts in there. Nope, I like them better than TK50s, though, because you pop off the two C rings and the head assembly lifts up to clean, which is necessary after every tape you try to read. I think I have one or two TZ30 somewhere. Maybe I should look more at them. But the TK50 is really easy to clean. You just remove the 3 screws that holds the cover plate, and then you just clean the heads where they are. But yes, you do need to clean the heads a lot on those drives. I believe I mentioned that in my original reply. :-) TK50 tapes stick or gum up at the ends just like QIC carts do. I haven't tried baking them. Thankfully there are almost none in the queue right now to read and hopefully it will stay that way. Interesting. I haven't seen that. And they construction is totally different from QIC tapes as well, unless my memory is failing me even more. Johnny
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
On 5/20/15 12:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: There might be rubber parts in there. Nope, I like them better than TK50s, though, because you pop off the two C rings and the head assembly lifts up to clean, which is necessary after every tape you try to read. TK50 tapes stick or gum up at the ends just like QIC carts do. I haven't tried baking them. Thankfully there are almost none in the queue right now to read and hopefully it will stay that way.
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
On 2015-05-20 21:06, Jochen Kunz wrote: Am 19.05.15 um 12:25 schrieb Johnny Billquist: Wow. That is definitely YMMV then. I've never seen that happen anywhere, and I occasionally still work with TK50s. (Even professionally.) It was a TZ30 in a DEC3000 running NetBSD, IIRC. We tried several TK50 tapes and all of them exhibited the sticky tape problem. And my 9-track tapes are rotten to the point of uselessness too. They still worked most of the time about 10 years ago. (In 2001 I installed 2.11BSD on my /73 using a TK50.) The tapes where stored under normal household conditions. I suppose the time of those tapes is long gone. The only use for them now is wall decoration. :-( Hmm. There might also be other issues when using a TZ30 as compared to a TK50 here... I don't even remember how the TZ30 looks inside. There might be rubber parts in there. Johnny
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
Am 19.05.15 um 12:25 schrieb Johnny Billquist: > > Wow. That is definitely YMMV then. I've never seen that happen anywhere, > and I occasionally still work with TK50s. (Even professionally.) It was a TZ30 in a DEC3000 running NetBSD, IIRC. We tried several TK50 tapes and all of them exhibited the sticky tape problem. And my 9-track tapes are rotten to the point of uselessness too. They still worked most of the time about 10 years ago. (In 2001 I installed 2.11BSD on my /73 using a TK50.) The tapes where stored under normal household conditions. I suppose the time of those tapes is long gone. The only use for them now is wall decoration. :-( -- tschüß, Jochen
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
On 2015-05-19 09:23, Arno Kletzander wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: The TK50 normally do not gum up. There are two problems with them, and those problems have been around since day 1. The first one is that the heads get dirty. Cleaning with isopropanol or similar with a lint-free pad solves that just fine. The second problem is that the tape pickup gets unhinged. Remove the covers and then you can fix that easily. So much for "YMMV": jkunz and I must have had some really bad tapes back then at the VCFe a couple of years ago. When we tried to read them (in a TK70, I think - does that make the difference?), they slowed down the mechanism, produced a squealing sound and stuck to the head to the point where in some cases the tape (carrier) broke in some cases. We did clean the head and tape guide parts with IPA several times only to get the same problem again. I'm sure he can elaborate a bit more about the tapes and the equipment used but I think I have it mostly correct. Wow. That is definitely YMMV then. I've never seen that happen anywhere, and I occasionally still work with TK50s. (Even professionally.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
Johnny Billquist wrote: > The TK50 normally do not gum up. There are two problems with them, and > those problems have been around since day 1. > The first one is that the heads get dirty. Cleaning with isopropanol or > similar with a lint-free pad solves that just fine. > The second problem is that the tape pickup gets unhinged. Remove the > covers and then you can fix that easily. So much for "YMMV": jkunz and I must have had some really bad tapes back then at the VCFe a couple of years ago. When we tried to read them (in a TK70, I think - does that make the difference?), they slowed down the mechanism, produced a squealing sound and stuck to the head to the point where in some cases the tape (carrier) broke in some cases. We did clean the head and tape guide parts with IPA several times only to get the same problem again. I'm sure he can elaborate a bit more about the tapes and the equipment used but I think I have it mostly correct. So Long, Arno
