Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
Hey, I'm always ready to learn.. One 'trick' I was taught, was to put a quart of ATF into an auto engine that was down a quart of oil, and ready for a change. Claim was that it had superior detergent / surfactant qualities, and would clean things up for the change. You were supposed to run it for 15-20 minutes or whatever, then drain the pan. I never tried it. Also had heard similar 'tricks' that involved adding diesel fuel to the crankcase prior to oil change. Never tried that one, either. I suspect a lot of these hacks originated in the days prior to detergent oils, when it was understood that sludge would build up inside the motor without intervention. Same thing with old (30s-50s) motor bikes, where one was warned off of ever using a detergent oil - as opposed to 30W-50W oils - as it might break loose all the sludge and plug up the oil system, starving the bearing surfaces. Heck if I know. On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/19/2016 08:29 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> ATF.. ATF?!?!? Heresy, heresy!! >> >> Not. >> >> I suppose it depends what we're talking about, Type F or the various >> grades >> of Dexron. But that's what I have in my pump oiler can. Per my >> understanding, it's essentially a highly-refined 20W oil with a series of >> additives that allow it to serve double-duty as the hydraulic working >> fluid >> in torque converters and automatic transmission clutches. >> >> >> Not so sure about that, but maybe it is all in the additives. it seems > like typical ATF is a LOT thinner than 20W oil. Also, it is pretty well > known that if you put a complete fill of ATF into an engine crankcase, the > rings will last about 10 miles before the compression goes to zero. > > If you put engine oil in the transmission, then the clutches will slip. > > Jon >
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On 04/19/2016 08:29 PM, drlegendre . wrote: ATF.. ATF?!?!? Heresy, heresy!! Not. I suppose it depends what we're talking about, Type F or the various grades of Dexron. But that's what I have in my pump oiler can. Per my understanding, it's essentially a highly-refined 20W oil with a series of additives that allow it to serve double-duty as the hydraulic working fluid in torque converters and automatic transmission clutches. Not so sure about that, but maybe it is all in the additives. it seems like typical ATF is a LOT thinner than 20W oil. Also, it is pretty well known that if you put a complete fill of ATF into an engine crankcase, the rings will last about 10 miles before the compression goes to zero. If you put engine oil in the transmission, then the clutches will slip. Jon
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
ATF.. ATF?!?!? Heresy, heresy!! Not. I suppose it depends what we're talking about, Type F or the various grades of Dexron. But that's what I have in my pump oiler can. Per my understanding, it's essentially a highly-refined 20W oil with a series of additives that allow it to serve double-duty as the hydraulic working fluid in torque converters and automatic transmission clutches. There are also additives that are permitted in ATF which would be excluded from crankcase oils, as the latter have a much greater tendency to enter the environment. On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Grif wrote: > Did not read the whole thread, ill chime in with a vote for a tiny drill, > an insulin syringe and ATF. done it since the 70s on muffin fans, 10 > previous years on bronze bushed blower motors. > > Original message > From: Chuck Guzis > Date: 04/18/2016 22:22 (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) > > On 04/18/2016 09:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > "What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?" > > > > Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm > > Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? > > > > They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a > > natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the > > depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties). > > P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to > > this day, are turned out by industrial processes. > > > > Am I incorrect? > > No, just pointing out that there *are* other oils with very high price > tags--and in years past, could be purchased by the gallon. > > ISTR that the antique clock folks still hoard whale oil. > > --Chuck > > >
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
Did not read the whole thread, ill chime in with a vote for a tiny drill, an insulin syringe and ATF. done it since the 70s on muffin fans, 10 previous years on bronze bushed blower motors. Original message From: Chuck Guzis Date: 04/18/2016 22:22 (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again) On 04/18/2016 09:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > "What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?" > > Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm > Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? > > They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a > natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the > depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties). > P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to > this day, are turned out by industrial processes. > > Am I incorrect? No, just pointing out that there *are* other oils with very high price tags--and in years past, could be purchased by the gallon. ISTR that the antique clock folks still hoard whale oil. --Chuck
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil? > Quite a bit more than Braycote, I'm sure. And it would be nowhere near as good. But if I were restoring a $25,000 machine, spending $250 on 10 grams of Braycote wouldn't seem outrageous. Sure it's more expensive the going to the Texico station for a can of motor oil, but it's also not going to eat through the decaying rubber belts within a few years. > > I'm very careful with PTFE-enhanced lubricants, such as TriFlow--they > tend, for me, at least, to get gummy. Braycote isn't a PTFE-enhanced petroleum based lubricant. Those have all the disadvantages of the base lubricant (which can evaporate or change chemically), but with added PTFE. > A good petroleum oil should last > decades in this particular application. Probably. You just shouldn't get it (or its evaporation or decomposition products) on anything that that might react badly to them or get too warm.
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 7:45 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Forgive my ignorance.. > > What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of this > Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, assuming > 1000gm/l. > First, I'm not trying to justify it outside of special circumstances. I'm sure Castrol will tell you that it's difficult to manufacture (they spend a lot of money figuring out how to make it without using CFCs). It does have special properties that the less expensive alternatives do not, primarily it will not dry or gum up unless the building burns down. > > Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich lubricants > have been readily available for decades - and while they tend to be on the > pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches $25-28/gm. > I think nothing justifies it until you're using it in a machine that is one of a kind or worth spending that kind of money. Other cheaper MoS2 and TFE-rich lubricants don't necessarily have the chemical inertness, lifetime or low vapor pressure. If it still works after 25 years in orbit, it'll work on your fan Given that much of the physical damage to my micros and minis is from incompatibility of the original (i.e. cheap) materials with each other or degradation with time, if I had the cash to do so I would set a "thou shalt use no petroleum based lubricants" rule and a "thou shalt use only fluoropolymer elastomers" rule for replacement of rubber parts.
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:52 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Speaking of orientation, though: these fans, like most PDP-11 fans, send air > downwards. I was thinking of flipping them, to send the heat upwards (its > 'natural' direction), but after pondering a bit, I'm not sure this is a good > idea: the air-flow on the intake side is diffuse, whereas on the output, it's > a concentrated, directed blast - better for cooling boards, etc. I share the sentiment. However, in many cases thermal engineers actually had something to do with the original design and they also know about heat rising. I would be careful about second-guessing the design, at least on well-engineered systems. I reversed the fan on my NeXT 040 Cube a long time ago. That way air goes out through the Optical drive port, and does not pull dust into it. Shortly thereafter, I started getting very occasional read errors on the SCSI bus. I thought through the air pathway, and sure enough the SCSI chip was now *down*stream of the power supply. I put the fan back to its original orientation, and no problems since. (The optical drive doesn’t work anyway, but I understand that is not a rare problem and in this case I don’t believe it is related to dust.) - Mark
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On 04/19/2016 08:52 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Thanks very much for taking the time to do that; my only concern is > to wonder if their experience is applicable, since these things are > turning an order of magnitude faster than old household fans. Is it really that extreme? Most US AC induction motors seem to be spec-ed in the neighborhood of 1750 or 3500 RPM. Series-wound 'universal" motors of course, are very different animals. --Chuck
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
{Multiple replies packaged together to minimize list traffic...}
> From: Jon Elson
> If you open one of these up, make sure to oil the cotton packing to
> supply oil gradually to the bearing.
I don't see any sign of a cotton packing around it (but maybe it's just
sealed away where I can't see it). There is a gasket/washer of some sort of
packing material / felting at one end, but I suspect that's for dust
interception, not as an oil resevoir, as in the fan's normal operating
orientation, it's on the bottom.
Speaking of orientation, though: these fans, like most PDP-11 fans, send air
downwards. I was thinking of flipping them, to send the heat upwards (its
'natural' direction), but after pondering a bit, I'm not sure this is a good
idea: the air-flow on the intake side is diffuse, whereas on the output, it's
a concentrated, directed blast - better for cooling boards, etc.
> From: Chuck Guzis
> I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web.
Thanks very much for taking the time to do that; my only concern is to wonder
if their experience is applicable, since these things are turning an order of
magnitude faster than old household fans.
> Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order:
> ..
> 3-in-1 Electric Motor Oil (SAE 20)
That's what I've been working with so far, but I was wondering if it would
last without going gummy. If they're happy with it for the long term, that
sounds like it would be good for this too.
> From: Corey Cohen
> I like to use a product called SuperLube that I get at the gun store.
> It's synthetic and I find it doesn't like to pickup dust
Thanks for the tip; I'll see if I can find any here. Oddly enough, I had
found something called Hoppe's Lubricating Oil on my shelf - it's for
firearms and fishing reels, and explicitly claims that it "will not gum [or]
harden", which also sounds like it might similar to the above, and just
what's called for.
I had seen reference online to people using synthetic automatic transmission
fluid, but the stuff I looked at claimed to "stop leaks", which makes it
sounds like it contains some agent which hardens (or at least coagulates) when
exposed to air (although I would assume there was some exposure to air in the
transmission?), which is definitely not what is wanted!
Noel
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? Well whale oil is merely an example illustrating that there are other expensive and/or hard to come by lubricants.
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On Apr 18, 2016, at 11:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm Whale > oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? > > They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a natural, > animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the depletion of the > resources (and finally, international treaties). P/TFE and MoS2 were > formulated in industrial laboratories, and to this day, are turned out by > industrial processes. Braycote has enough nice properties that it is also (often) the lubricant of choice for a lot of space applications - which in many cases justify its (ahem) astronomical price. Its low out-gassing in vacuum and lack of mobility are huge assets there. I have not personally used it in any terrestrial applications, nor are any of my machines pricey enough to warrant it, so I can’t advocate one way or the other for its use on a classic computer. - Mark
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
> On Apr 18, 2016, at 10:11 PM, Eric Korpela wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web. >> Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order: > > And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and > need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether > (PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to > react with anything you might find a computer. But it is very pricey. $25 > a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF > (with MoS2). The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a > gram. But a gram of this stuff goes a long way. I'd go with 602EF for > fan bearings. > > But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the > "oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic. It doesn't dry out, > evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and > molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon. I wouldn't buy it to use for a > personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was > throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote. (Which hasn't been the case, > I don't have a personal stash). I have been waiting this thread out to see what options people are using. I like to use a product called SuperLube that I get at the gun store. It's synthetic and I find it doesn't like to pickup dust like other types of lube. It works great on an AR-15, marine fish tank light fan bearing, and on disk drive rails. Basically all extreme environment uses involving carbon, dirt, dust and salt water. SuperLube is available in a tube and isn't very expensive like whale sperm, I mean oil. Cheers, Corey corey cohen uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On 04/18/2016 09:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > "What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?" > > Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm > Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? > > They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a > natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the > depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties). > P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to > this day, are turned out by industrial processes. > > Am I incorrect? No, just pointing out that there *are* other oils with very high price tags--and in years past, could be purchased by the gallon. ISTR that the antique clock folks still hoard whale oil. --Chuck
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On 04/17/2016 8:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
On 2016-Apr-17, at 7:28 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Nope, the cylindrical (outer part of the) bearing is a plain cylinder. But
looking at it closely, it's probably not copper, so it might be that Oilite
stuff.
Online images do give a fair idea of the appearance of the surface texture and
colour of oilite / porous bronze bearings.
It can generally be readily distinguished from 'pure solid' metal.
e.g.:
http://www.google.ca/search?q=oilite&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjvbLXkZfMAhULxmMKHUQVDvwQ_AUIBQ
I've removed such bearing fittings often enough from equipment for random stock
but don't recall whether or not I've seen them in box/muffin fans.
I'd guess that grease may be a poor idea for oilite at least inasmuch as once
there is grease in the pores the material will probably never again function
the way it was supposed to with oil.
I use a drop of synthetic motor oil on stuck fans, and tiny motors
(P{hilips CDM series players) - works very well, no returns in ten years!
John :-#)#
--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
"What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?" Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant? They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties). P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to this day, are turned out by industrial processes. Am I incorrect? On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/18/2016 07:45 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Forgive my ignorance.. > > > > What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of > > this Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, > > assuming 1000gm/l. > > > > Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich > > lubricants have been readily available for decades - and while they > > tend to be on the pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches > > $25-28/gm. > > What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil? > > I'm very careful with PTFE-enhanced lubricants, such as TriFlow--they > tend, for me, at least, to get gummy. A good petroleum oil should last > decades in this particular application. > > --Chuck > >
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On 04/18/2016 07:45 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Forgive my ignorance.. > > What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of > this Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, > assuming 1000gm/l. > > Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich > lubricants have been readily available for decades - and while they > tend to be on the pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches > $25-28/gm. What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil? I'm very careful with PTFE-enhanced lubricants, such as TriFlow--they tend, for me, at least, to get gummy. A good petroleum oil should last decades in this particular application. --Chuck
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
Forgive my ignorance.. What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of this Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, assuming 1000gm/l. Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich lubricants have been readily available for decades - and while they tend to be on the pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches $25-28/gm. On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Eric Korpela wrote: > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web. > > Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order: > > > > And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and > need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether > (PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to > react with anything you might find a computer. But it is very pricey. $25 > a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF > (with MoS2). The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a > gram. But a gram of this stuff goes a long way. I'd go with 602EF for > fan bearings. > > But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the > "oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic. It doesn't dry out, > evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and > molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon. I wouldn't buy it to use for a > personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was > throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote. (Which hasn't been the case, > I don't have a personal stash). >
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web. > Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order: > And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether (PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to react with anything you might find a computer. But it is very pricey. $25 a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF (with MoS2). The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a gram. But a gram of this stuff goes a long way. I'd go with 602EF for fan bearings. But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the "oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic. It doesn't dry out, evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon. I wouldn't buy it to use for a personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote. (Which hasn't been the case, I don't have a personal stash).
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web. Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order: 1. SAE 20 *non-detergent* motor oil 2. Turbine oil (ISO 32 SAE 15) 3. 3-in-1 Electric Motor Oil (SAE 20) *note* Not the multipurpose "red can" stuff, but the blue can motor oil. 4. Royal Purple Synthetic INDUSTRIAL oil ISO 68 ~ SAE 25 5. Lithium grease in an aerosol spray--what I use. Be sure to shake the can before application. FWIW, Chuck
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On 04/17/2016 08:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > From: drlegendre > If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at the material.. does > it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)? It looks like copper, actually; it's quite reddish. (The central pin seems to be steel of some sort.) But I'm not familiar with Oilite, so I can't say for sure. Yes, that is a sintered bronze bushing, made by compressing powdered bronze in a press. The pores allow oil to flow from the cotton packing around it to the bushing/journal interface. If you open one of these up, make sure to oil the cotton packing to supply oil gradually to the bearing. Jon
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
At 08:22 PM 4/17/2016, drlegendre wrote: >... does it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)? If the bearing is bronze do not use ordinary motor oil, as its sulphur content may attack the bronze. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On 2016-Apr-17, at 7:28 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Nope, the cylindrical (outer part of the) bearing is a plain cylinder. But > looking at it closely, it's probably not copper, so it might be that Oilite > stuff. Online images do give a fair idea of the appearance of the surface texture and colour of oilite / porous bronze bearings. It can generally be readily distinguished from 'pure solid' metal. e.g.: http://www.google.ca/search?q=oilite&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjvbLXkZfMAhULxmMKHUQVDvwQ_AUIBQ I've removed such bearing fittings often enough from equipment for random stock but don't recall whether or not I've seen them in box/muffin fans. I'd guess that grease may be a poor idea for oilite at least inasmuch as once there is grease in the pores the material will probably never again function the way it was supposed to with oil.
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On 04/17/2016 07:28 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > No, it's not, which is exactly the problem, though - I want something > that won't coagulate if left to sit for a long period. Google "electric motor grease". You'll get lots of words. --Chuck
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
> From: drlegendre > Ok, so there's an annular groove cut mid-way along the length of the > shaft. That might well be for retention of lubricant. Yeah, that was my guess too. > I took these to be the typical 'Muffin' type fans, that run about 600 > RPM. For comparison, one of my desktops has a thing that reports the fan speeds in that machine; it says the case fan there is doing 1.5K RPM, and the CPU fan 5K. Going by that, since these are going considerably faster than that case fan, I'm going to say these are doing roughly 3K-4K or so. Since they are 120VAC fans, i.e. 60Hz AC input, if I had remembered enough EE, I should have been able to work out the speed from the number of poles on the rotor, etc, but alas that's beyond me. > This is a long-shot, but does the groove in the shaft communicate with > a passage in the bearing Nope, the cylindrical (outer part of the) bearing is a plain cylinder. But looking at it closely, it's probably not copper, so it might be that Oilite stuff. > What's the diameter of the shaft, btw? 1/4" or less? Pretty much about 1/4". > I'd stick with the suggestion to use a light-bodied grease like Phil's I'm just worried a bit about a grease, given the high speed. For comparison, a car wheel is about 2' in diameter, or about 6' in circumference, so at 60 MPH, which is 5280 FPM, it's going to be doing about 880 RPM, somewhat slower. Hence my thinking a fluid lubricant might be the way to go, although of course fluids can migrate. > But again, there's no harm in using a medium-body motor oil, like 30W > or 10W-40. It's not as if it's going to be in 24/7/365 service, eh? No, it's not, which is exactly the problem, though - I want something that won't coagulate if left to sit for a long period. Actually, now that I think of it, my son is a Mech E - I should ask _him_! :-) They probably know about all this stuff! Noel
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On 04/17/2016 05:28 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > White lithium isn't by any means ideal, it's too sticky. It's carried by a > solvent so it runs freely and can be sprayed, but once the solvent kicks > off, some of it's almost like paint. Depends on the formulation, I guess. The white lithium grease that I use appears to be carried in a light oil--eventually, you can see that the oil separates from the white lithium. So perhaps not so bad. Any tribologists on the list? --Chuck
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
Ok, so there's an annular groove cut mid-way along the length of the shaft. That might well be for retention of lubricant. You'll have to forgive my assumptions about low RPM operation - I took these to be the typical 'Muffin' type fans, that run about 600 RPM. This is a long-shot, but does the groove in the shaft communicate with a passage in the bearing, by any chance? Just wondering if there's a wicking type oiling system in the design, as seen in larger electric motors. If there's no passage for lube, then I'd stick with the suggestion to use a light-bodied grease like Phil's and make sure to pack the groove full of it. But again, there's no harm in using a medium-body motor oil, like 30W or 10W-40. It's not as if it's going to be in 24/7/365 service, eh? What's the diameter of the shaft, btw? 1/4" or less? Got any pics of the parts? On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: drlegendre > > > If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at the material.. does > > it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)? > > It looks like copper, actually; it's quite reddish. (The central pin seems > to > be steel of some sort.) But I'm not familiar with Oilite, so I can't say > for > sure. > > > Are there channels in the bearing to allow the distribution or > > retention of grease? > > There's a section of reduced diameter in the center of the pin; the ends > are > full diameter, with no grooves of any kind. The sleeve is a plain cylinder. > > > Those fans tend to run at pretty low RPM > > Not these. They are doing very high RPM indeed. > > Noel >
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
> From: drlegendre > If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at the material.. does > it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)? It looks like copper, actually; it's quite reddish. (The central pin seems to be steel of some sort.) But I'm not familiar with Oilite, so I can't say for sure. > Are there channels in the bearing to allow the distribution or > retention of grease? There's a section of reduced diameter in the center of the pin; the ends are full diameter, with no grooves of any kind. The sleeve is a plain cylinder. > Those fans tend to run at pretty low RPM Not these. They are doing very high RPM indeed. Noel
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
"I use white lithium grease for that. It may not be the proper stuff, but it's worked for years for me." White lithium isn't by any means ideal, it's too sticky. It's carried by a solvent so it runs freely and can be sprayed, but once the solvent kicks off, some of it's almost like paint. But when the shafts are so tiny, run at low RPMs - hence very low surface speeds - it more than likely works out ok, just as you have found. As in most cases, just about any form of lubrication is always better than running dry. The most important thing is to keep the bearings free of dirt, swarf and other contaminants. On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/17/2016 03:54 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > However.. what lubricant should I use on them before putting them > > back together for the long term? I assume I should use _something_? > > But the machine's going to be sitting a fair amount, so I don't want > > something that will dry out and/or gum up. What do people recommend? > > Would a 20SAE oil, as used on small electric motors, be OK, or is > > that in danger of turning into gummy stuff if left sitting for too > > long? Is there e.g. some silione-based stuff which is long-term > > capable? > > I use white lithium grease for that. It may not be the proper stuff, > but it's worked for years for me. > > --Chuck > >
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at the material.. does it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)? Are there channels in the bearing to allow the distribution or retention of grease? Those fans tend to run at pretty low RPM, so a very light bodied grease, like the Phil's Grease for bicycles, would be fine to use. Otherwise, you can just punt and use 20-30W motor oil. And yes, if you have a high-end synthetic like Royal Purple 10-40 that is great. The RP oil is the go-to for the guys on the antique fan site I visited when repairing my 1930s Emerson Junior table fan. The RP is really pricey, like $10/qt but a single quart will last several guys a lifetime of small lubing tasks. On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: drlegendre > > > There are so many types, sources & grades of lubricating oil out > there, > > it boggles the best of minds. > > Speaking of lubricating oils... I've recently been cleaning/etc some of > the ~4" boxer fans that the earlier PDP-11's use in large quantities. > Some of the IMC fans (sleeve bearing) in the machine didn't really want to > turn; on taking them apart, they were absolutely full of dirt, and when > cleaned, spun up nicely. > > However.. what lubricant should I use on them before putting them back > together for the long term? I assume I should use _something_? But the > machine's going to be sitting a fair amount, so I don't want something that > will dry out and/or gum up. What do people recommend? Would a 20SAE oil, as > used on small electric motors, be OK, or is that in danger of turning into > gummy stuff if left sitting for too long? Is there e.g. some silione-based > stuff which is long-term capable? > > Thanks in advance for any/all advice! > > Noel >
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
On 04/17/2016 03:54 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > However.. what lubricant should I use on them before putting them > back together for the long term? I assume I should use _something_? > But the machine's going to be sitting a fair amount, so I don't want > something that will dry out and/or gum up. What do people recommend? > Would a 20SAE oil, as used on small electric motors, be OK, or is > that in danger of turning into gummy stuff if left sitting for too > long? Is there e.g. some silione-based stuff which is long-term > capable? I use white lithium grease for that. It may not be the proper stuff, but it's worked for years for me. --Chuck
Re: Fan bearing lubricant was Re: WD-40 (again)
> From: drlegendre > There are so many types, sources & grades of lubricating oil out there, > it boggles the best of minds. Speaking of lubricating oils... I've recently been cleaning/etc some of the ~4" boxer fans that the earlier PDP-11's use in large quantities. Some of the IMC fans (sleeve bearing) in the machine didn't really want to turn; on taking them apart, they were absolutely full of dirt, and when cleaned, spun up nicely. However.. what lubricant should I use on them before putting them back together for the long term? I assume I should use _something_? But the machine's going to be sitting a fair amount, so I don't want something that will dry out and/or gum up. What do people recommend? Would a 20SAE oil, as used on small electric motors, be OK, or is that in danger of turning into gummy stuff if left sitting for too long? Is there e.g. some silione-based stuff which is long-term capable? Thanks in advance for any/all advice! Noel
