Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Jon Elson]

On 10/15/2016 10:48 PM, Steven M Jones wrote:

On 10/15/2016 19:39, Chuck Guzis wrote:

My point blew right past you, apparently--yet I stated it as clearly as
I could.

I got your point, Chuck, one hundred percent. It's a depressing
perspective, but I acknowledge the truth of it in my own life. Almost
every day I'm reminded that nothing is as exciting as it used to be.

Well, I'm not sure.  In 1996 I built a laser photoplotter.  
See http://pico-systems.com/photoplot.html
for some description and a picture.  It ran on a Windows 3.1 
computer with an ISA bus DMA card.
I was still using it to make PC board artwork and stencils 
for solder paste up to 2014, but was worried the old PC 
would fail to boot someday.  The program that generated the 
raster image files was written in Turbo Pascal for Windows, 
run under a virtual machine, and I was not sure I could 
recompile it, either.  I used fpc (Free Pascal Compiler) to 
recompile it and clean up a bunch of things, then wrote a 
program that used run-length compression to compress the 
raster file.  I got a Beagle Bone computer, and wrote some 
code for the PRU to uncompress the run-length encoding on 
the fly, and emulate the DMA card on the PC.  I got all this 
working in a matter of weeks, and felt REALLY good!  I 
haven't done that sort of software/hardware project in quite 
some time.


Jon

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Todd Goodman]

* Jason Howe  [161014 10:15]:
[..SNIP..]
> Okay, I'll bite.   I'm in my mid-30's.  I've always loved older gear of 
> all types: A/V, computers, photographic, automotive, you name it.
> 
> For me, its the thrill of running something discarded or obsolete, 
> learning all I can about it, fixing it and then doing something useful 
> with it.
> 
> I'm currently writing this on an ATARI 800, booted to a "VT100" terminal 
> program off a 5 1/4 disk drive, talking through an original serial 
> interface box, direct to OPA0 on my VMS box.  The only modern piece of 
> hardware between me and the world right now is the internet connection.
> 
> I don't spend much on the pieces I aquire, but I tend to stay pretty 
> focused.  Similarly, I don't sell the stuff I pass on for very much 
> either.  I try to keep it in the community -- when I cut my pile in half 
> a couple years ago, I probably could have doubled or tripled my money 
> had I sold on ebay rather than to local club members.
> 
> All that having been said, I really really want to aquire a PDP-11 and 
> build an S100 machine and find a real VT100.  Given the price of these 
> things in the world right now...  And here is where I agree with the OP, 
> it sucks, competing between the scrappers and the heavy duty collectors 
> is just something this guy can't do.
> 
> Anyway, not sure this actually contributes to the conversation, but I 
> felt compelled to chime in at some point.
> 
> Best,
> 
> -- 
> Jason
> 
> Sent from my DEC 3000 running VMS 8.4

Hi Jason,

You might want to indicate where you are geographically as someone near
you might have a PDP-11?

As for building an S-100 system.  Check out the s100computers Google
group for newly designed S-100 boards available pretty much at cost as
long as you're up to sourcing parts and doing all the soldering
yourself.  Feel free to contact me via private email if you're
interested and I can point you to the group (and I have many of the
boards available as well.)

Todd

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/15/2016 08:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> " I can read about using arsphenamine to treat syphilis, for example
> (historically important), without contracting the disease and
> treating it myself just for "the experience"."
> 
> Thanks for that, Chuck.. while it makes the point, it's still one of
> the screwiest analogies ever.

Okay, I regret that analogy, however apt or inapt.

I should have used smallpox.  :)

--Chuck

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[drlegendre .]

" I can read about using arsphenamine
to treat syphilis, for example (historically important), without
contracting the disease and treating it myself just for "the experience"."

Thanks for that, Chuck.. while it makes the point, it's still one of the
screwiest analogies ever.

Love it. Gotta pull that one out at the next appropriate social gathering.

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 9:52 PM, Ali  wrote:

>
> > Just wait until the hipsters discover syphilis, and the prices go
> > through the roof on eBay thanks to opportunistic syphilis flippers.
>
> I don't know about the price of syphilis but the price of treating syphilis
> has gone through the roof. But I digress... :)
>
>
>
>

RE: Getting out of the hobby

[Ali]

 
> Just wait until the hipsters discover syphilis, and the prices go
> through the roof on eBay thanks to opportunistic syphilis flippers.

I don't know about the price of syphilis but the price of treating syphilis
has gone through the roof. But I digress... :)

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/15/2016 05:49 PM, Steven M Jones wrote:
> On 10/15/16 12:49, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> 
>> I can read about using arsphenamine to treat syphilis, for example
>> (historically important), without contracting the disease and
>> treating it myself just for "the experience".
> 
> Well, thanks for not drawing a *direct* comparison between those of
> us still more engaged in collecting and those suffering the
> debilitating mental effects of syphilis...  ;)

My point blew right past you, apparently--yet I stated it as clearly as
I could.  So please permit me to try again:

When was the last time an audience reacted the way they first did in
1913 upon witnessing the performance of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring"?

Probably never again, as nearly as I can determine.  Now, the work
barely raises anything more than the standard mandatory standing
O--regardless of the performance quality.

My use of Ehrlich's treatment for a venereal disease as an example was
entirely on-point.  Once a treatment for the disease had been
discovered, it would never be viewed the same way--the world and its
perception had been permanently altered.  On the other hand, reading
Ehrlich's writings gives us a clue to the way  he felt about what he was
doing and the significance of his results at the time.

Collecting hardware in hopes of repeating the original experience is an
exercise in futility.  When was the last time you ooh-ed and ah-ed over
a color television broadcast?  Yet, for me, I recall seeing that NBC
peacock display at a friend's home on his RCA set was nothing short of
spectacular.  While it's no longer spectacular, I can still read
accounts of the people behind the technology to get an idea of how
significant it was.

We are all, hopefully, human and the nature of our minds and existence
has shown that we can't go home again.

--Chuck

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:33, Cameron Kaiser  wrote:
> 
> I treat syphilis, in case anyone on this list requires that.

Just wait until the hipsters discover syphilis, and the prices go through the 
roof on eBay thanks to opportunistic syphilis flippers.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Cameron Kaiser]

> > I can read about using arsphenamine
> > to treat syphilis, for example (historically important), without
> > contracting the disease and treating it myself just for "the experience".
> 
> Well, thanks for not drawing a *direct* comparison between those of us
> still more engaged in collecting and those suffering the debilitating
> mental effects of syphilis...  ;)

I treat syphilis, in case anyone on this list requires that.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Maybe this world is another planet's hell. -- Aldous Huxley 

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Steven M Jones]

On 10/15/16 12:49, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 
> I can read about using arsphenamine
> to treat syphilis, for example (historically important), without
> contracting the disease and treating it myself just for "the experience".

Well, thanks for not drawing a *direct* comparison between those of us
still more engaged in collecting and those suffering the debilitating
mental effects of syphilis...  ;)

--S.

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/14/2016 10:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote:


> If my previous observations on the genesis of the list don't match
> reality, I'm perfectly willing to be corrected - in fact, I like what
> I've been hearing about the origins of the list. That said, the vast
> majority of list traffic seems to focus on minicomputers "and up"
> (or, and back as it were), and I assumed that it's always been this
> way.
> 
> As another member recently noted, much of what tumbles past me on
> this list is totally outside of my 'classic computer' world. Though,
> again, I'd have no trouble whatsoever geeking out - and fully - over
> some mini hardware, if that's the sort of thing I could possibly have
> room for in my home or my life.
> 
> This said, it's clear to see that most of the list traffic is well
> outside of the 8-bit / 16-bit micro era. And if the list is to
> survive over the long-term, then more of the micro kids like myself
> need to be brought deeper into the fold. Don't you think?

Well, I'll throw my own worthless opinion into the mix.

Classiccmp to me is mostly a DEC minicomputer list.  In fact, if it were
retitled as such, I don't think that many posts would be excluded.
Having spent my formative years in big iron, the DEC stuff is
minicomputer, although an exception might be made for the very high end,
such as the VAX 9000 machines--but IIRC, those aren't discussed here.

I've used (even as sysadmin) VAX systems and have even been offered one
free for the taking.  There's no nostalgia there for me, so I haven't
bothered.

Even Cray-Cyber offers only access to a Cyber 800 system, which is too
late for me.  Are there any IBM 7070s still in functioning order?  Got a
7090 to run FMS on?   How about a nice little 1620?

Pretty much all gone, mostly due to age and cost of operation.

But even if I could have a Univac 1107, complete with peripherals
running in my basement, I don't think I would.  I've moved on, but the
hardware hasn't.  Things that were wonderful to behold back then are
only mere curiosities today.  I'm not the same person I used to be back
then, thank heavens.   The Thomas Wolfe thing.

8-bit micro CPUs to me were a breakthrough in that real computer
ownership was within my means.  I recall the withering laugh when
showing my newly-assembled MITS 8800 to a co-worker:  "You paid $1000
for *that*?  It's just a toy!"  In retrospect, I probably would have had
more fun spending the kilobuck on fast women and booze.

In that sense of ownership, I don't really draw much of a distinction
between vintage 8-bit micros and modern PCs.  Yes, a modern PC can do a
lot more than a MITS box, but you'd expect that after 40-odd years.  Can
you get the same thrill that someone got in 1975 from an 8-bit system?
I doubt it.

There are still those who like to experiment with old vacuum tubes
(valves to you folks in the UK) building a one-bottle regenerative
receiver, complete with A and B batteries, but for most of us who have
been there, it's not the same.

I'm always interested in design documents and other paper that tells me
about the thought that went into the creation of a machine, but the
machine  itself, not so much.

So yes, I can see someone get out of the collecting hobby, yet still
retaining an interest in old iron.  I can read about using arsphenamine
to treat syphilis, for example (historically important), without
contracting the disease and treating it myself just for "the experience".

--Chuck

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[william degnan]

On Oct 15, 2016 1:06 AM, "drlegendre ."  wrote:
>
> >
> > There are still plenty of enthusiastic, younger folks who are most
> >> definitely into running the "genuine old hardware" - it's just that
> >>
> > this
>
> > list hasn't traditionally offered much of a draw for these users. As
> >>
> > noted,
>
> > the list was formed by and for users of the classic-era 'big iron'
> >>
> > gear,
>
> > many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in one form or another.
> >>
> >
> Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost from day 1, and my first
> > question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are
> >
> minicomputers
>
> > welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'
>
>
> If my previous observations on the genesis of the list don't match
reality,
> I'm perfectly willing to be corrected - in fact, I like what I've been
> hearing about the origins of the list. That said, the vast majority of
list
> traffic seems to focus on minicomputers "and up" (or, and back as it
were),
> and I assumed that it's always been this way.
>
> As another member recently noted, much of what tumbles past me on this
list
> is totally outside of my 'classic computer' world. Though, again, I'd have
> no trouble whatsoever geeking out - and fully - over some mini hardware,
if
> that's the sort of thing I could possibly have room for in my home or my
> life.
>
> This said, it's clear to see that most of the list traffic is well outside
> of the 8-bit / 16-bit micro era. And if the list is to survive over the
> long-term, then more of the micro kids like myself need to be brought
> deeper into the fold. Don't you think?
>

I am a member of a handful of lists related to vintage computing.  This
list has one of the broadest on- topic scopes and yes it is not centered on
8bit home computing.  There are not a lot of posts about Apples and
Commodores and such because a lot of the hardware problems that typically
come up about these systems have long ago been beaten to death. I think you
read more about minis and other types a lot on cctech because some of us
are attempting to work on "something else" other than just 8bit machines to
push into new areas and there is a lot of enthusiasm for it.  And there are
not as many sources of info, and these projects tend to be never ending :-)
.

FYI minis and workstations   overlap a longer tumespan than 8bit home
machines, there are a ton of hobbyists who collect and or support these
machines.   I was much more 8 bit focused before but at some point I
shifted to explore more vintage eras.  Both forward and backward in time.

I joined in the earlier 200x's .

I think my first post was in reply to someone who wanted to boot a GRID
laptop from an external drive and I happened to know the keystroke combo.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[drlegendre .]

>
> There are still plenty of enthusiastic, younger folks who are most
>> definitely into running the "genuine old hardware" - it's just that
>>
> this

> list hasn't traditionally offered much of a draw for these users. As
>>
> noted,

> the list was formed by and for users of the classic-era 'big iron'
>>
> gear,

> many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in one form or another.
>>
>
Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost from day 1, and my first
> question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are
>
minicomputers

> welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'


If my previous observations on the genesis of the list don't match reality,
I'm perfectly willing to be corrected - in fact, I like what I've been
hearing about the origins of the list. That said, the vast majority of list
traffic seems to focus on minicomputers "and up" (or, and back as it were),
and I assumed that it's always been this way.

As another member recently noted, much of what tumbles past me on this list
is totally outside of my 'classic computer' world. Though, again, I'd have
no trouble whatsoever geeking out - and fully - over some mini hardware, if
that's the sort of thing I could possibly have room for in my home or my
life.

This said, it's clear to see that most of the list traffic is well outside
of the 8-bit / 16-bit micro era. And if the list is to survive over the
long-term, then more of the micro kids like myself need to be brought
deeper into the fold. Don't you think?



On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, jim stephens wrote:
>
>> There are a number of 1970 postings, which clearly were sent with 0 time
>> stamp values, and accepted by the mailing agent and archived with the 1970
>> time frame.  They are not all the same in each snapshot.
>> Appreciate your capture of these.
>>
>
> Sometimes you can get hints of what OS and/or software was on the
> originating machine - if you don't set the date, what does your machine
> default to?
>
> Besides the posts that had no time-stamp, or faulty/corrupted ones,. . .
> Was John Titor on this list?
>
>
> Slysoft is GONE, partially but not completely replaced, . . .
> One version of ANYDVD that I use requires any date prior to a certain one;
> that machine is set for October 14, 1988.  1988 (a leap year) is the most
> recent year that has days-of-week and dates the same as 2016. Non-leapyears
> have much easier calendar substitutions.
>

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, jim stephens wrote:
There are a number of 1970 postings, which clearly were sent with 0 time 
stamp values, and accepted by the mailing agent and archived with the 1970 
time frame.  They are not all the same in each snapshot.

Appreciate your capture of these.


Sometimes you can get hints of what OS and/or software was on the 
originating machine - if you don't set the date, what does your machine 
default to?


Besides the posts that had no time-stamp, or faulty/corrupted ones,. . .
Was John Titor on this list?


Slysoft is GONE, partially but not completely replaced, . . .
One version of ANYDVD that I use requires any date prior to a certain 
one; that machine is set for October 14, 1988.  1988 (a leap year) is the 
most recent year that has days-of-week and dates the same as 2016. 
Non-leapyears have much easier calendar substitutions.

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[jim stephens]

On 10/14/2016 10:32 AM, Richard Schauer wrote:




I'm searching the alt.folklore.computers group (on Google; my ISP no 
longer runs a NNTP server) and I can't find Bill's initial invitation 
message.  I find a later one from June 1997, cross-posted to lots of 
comp.sys.* groups, advertising the (existing) group, and a couple from 
some comp.sys.* groups from March 13th in which he says the list "just 
started."
I hate to fuss, but Google trashed the text archives some time ago after 
acquiring the effort that was archiving them.  Unless you have your own 
email archive and it has the message, there is hit and miss on what 
Google may have retained.  Don't recall, Deja-news?  or such.  I know 
that several groups i had archived suddenly looked like swiss cheese 
after they took it over.


comp.databases.pick being one of them.  I also had had an email exchange 
with Dennis Richie which was lost.  Also was in on the discussions with 
some guy name Torvalds who was writing his own system and arguing with 
Tanenbaum.


thanks
Jim

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Richard Schauer]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote:

do go back that far, so it doesn't look like we're missing much. The earliest
ones there are from 13 March 1997, so we may be missing a few, but not many;
the first posts are clearly 'hi, here's who am I' kind of things, apparently
in response to an earlier message, which does alas seem to be missing.


I'm searching the alt.folklore.computers group (on Google; my ISP no 
longer runs a NNTP server) and I can't find Bill's initial invitation 
message.  I find a later one from June 1997, cross-posted to lots of 
comp.sys.* groups, advertising the (existing) group, and a couple from 
some comp.sys.* groups from March 13th in which he says the list "just 
started."


In the March 13th messages, he gives the reasons why he required the 
little introduction message-


"I require the letter of introduction for several reasons. 1 - Only people 
who really want to be on the list will bother. 2 - If you can't follow 
directions I won't hear from you. 3 - It helps me get an idea of who's on 
the list and what they hope to get out of it. 4 - I like to respond 
personally to new members rather than run a robot list."


The first discussions started from Bill's replies to these messages, and 
when the list opened the ice was thus already broken.


Richard Schauer

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Ethan Dicks]

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> > From: Jason Howe
>
> > I really really want to aquire a PDP-11 ... Given the price of these
> > things in the world right now...
>
> If you're willing to live with a QBUS machine, and not a UNIBUS one, it
> doesn't necessarily take a mountain of money

Agreed.  I see Qbus PDP-11s offered from time to time for a few
hundred dollars down to free.  I'm helping someone restore a 42" cab
with a MicroPDP-11/73, a second BA23, RL02, RQDX3 (missing drives
because they were removed and destroyed prior to sale - a common
thing), TSV05 magtape, 10 serial ports... I think it was a recent
State Surplus auction that went for under $100.

> I've bought 11/23 CPU boards for as little as $40 recently, and memory and
> serial interface cards for console are on the same order of money. And I got
> a BA11-S box, complete with power supply and backplane, for a little over
> $100, IIRC.

No disagreement with those price points.  Those are the kinds of
numbers I see too.

> The real hangup is mass storage; the older drives, at least, are all real
> money now.

So very true.

In the case of the PDP-11 and RT-11, one modern solution to this is
use a second serial port for an emulated TU58.  Many of the Qbus
PDP-11 CPU cards have 2 serial lines, and for those that do not, the
DLV11-J 4-port card is common and inexpensive.  With a solid-state (SD
card) storage for emulated media, there's no seek time, and the
transfer time via serial really isn't all that bad.  It's not as fast
as a hard disk, but it's a solid, inexpensive way to start.

> I don't know about the later ones (from the uVAX era), those seem
> to be cheaper, but I don't know anything about them.

Many 1980s Qbus PDP-11s have an RQDX3 which will talk to RX50/RX33 and
5.25" floppies - again good for RT-11.  The RQDX3 talks to the RD31
and RD32 (ST-225 and ST-251-1, some of the most common smallish
ST506/ST412-interface drives, though nowhere near as plentiful as they
once were).  Another common storage solution for small systems was the
RL02 with an RLV12 - up to 4 drives, and still one of the more
plentiful storage devices from the era, though owing to brute-force
deinstallations and copper scavenging, it seems that cables could cost
you more than drives and controllers.  Storage over 40MB on the small
end is indeed somewhat tough to come up with.  QDA50 controllers seem
to be not difficult to acquire, but the drives to go with them are
heavy and, especially the notorious RA81, often cantankerous (all of
this is worse on the Unibus where there isn't even the option of the
RQDX3 for modest-sized systems).

For a "serious" Qbus system, the present solution seems to be looking
for a Qbus SCSI card at $250 or under, then using an old 3.5" SCSI
drive or a SCSI-IDE adapter and any (nearly) modernish desktop hard
drive or  a CF card or SD card.

-ethan

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Jason Howe

> I really really want to aquire a PDP-11 ... Given the price of these
> things in the world right now... 

If you're willing to live with a QBUS machine, and not a UNIBUS one, it
doesn't necessarily take a mountain of money - if you're patient and wait for
deals.

I've bought 11/23 CPU boards for as little as $40 recently, and memory and
serial interface cards for console are on the same order of money. And I got
a BA11-S box, complete with power supply and backplane, for a little over
$100, IIRC.

The real hangup is mass storage; the older drives, at least, are all real
money now. I don't know about the later ones (from the uVAX era), those seem
to be cheaper, but I don't know anything about them. If Dave B and I can
get the QSIC project to the production stage, that would probably alleviate
that side.

Noel

RE: Getting out of the hobby

[tony duell]

> > "There are plenty of people who play the 8-bit home micro games they
> > grew up playing, but many of them (at least the ones I know of) run them
> > on a PC-based emulator not the real hardware."
> 
> You don't really think that retro video gaming is the singular, or even the
> primary focus of 8-bit micro nostalgia, do you? That seems like a bit of a
> shallow view, at least from my perspective.

I certainly don't believe it's the only reason to be interested in, or collect
classic microcomputers. Or the subset that are common home computers.
I just have to look around me at the BBC micros, TRS80s, Apple ][s,
PETs, etc. I don't play games very much, I am interested in said machines for
other reasons.

BUT

Outside this list (and others like it), a major reason why people collect
said machines (or run emulators of them) is nostalgia for the old games.
I have lost count of the number of people who expect me to have all the
games for the machines I own. 

-tony

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Peter Cetinski]

Spurred by the conversation about the state of the hobby, micro vs mini and the 
relevance of this list to both classes, I thought I’d articulate what motivates 
me to those not into the micro scene.

I am a micro guy.  I was a kid in the late 70s early 80s so that is where my 
passion lies.  Being able to afford all of those incredible machines that I 
could only read about in magazines and dream about at night back then is a huge 
motivator for me.  Specifically, I mostly collect and restore TRS-80s with an 
emphasis on the Model II line of big 8” business class machines, including the 
Models II, 12, 16, 16B and 6000.  I try my best given the limited free time I 
have to encourage the growth of the community.  I write software for these 
computers that leverages my modern day programming skills such as a Wikipedia 
browser called TRSWiki and a Dropbox client called TRS-Box.  I host a monthly 
podcast affectionatley called TRS80 Trash Talk with a couple of other notable 
folks in the TRS-80 community.  I promote the rescue and preservation of the 
Model II line of software and documentation in the model2archive. 

I really enjoy the conversations on this list even though most of it is about 
hardware that I am unfamiliar with since it is before my time.  I learn a lot 
from the "old timers” (typed with utmost respect!) on this list and their 
websites, especially the 8” floppy experts.  While most of the TRS-80 specific 
traffic is either in the TRS-80 Yahoo Group or on the VCForum Tandy group, I’d 
definitely encourage more micro computer discussion on this list…otherwise I 
fear it may stagnate.  As new people join the hobby they are more likely to be 
micro focused given that collectors usually collect that which they are 
familiar with from some time in their lives.

Pete

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Richard Schauer]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote:
That's right - except it was started in 1997 and run by Bill Whitson at the 
University of Washington - and I joined a few months after it started.  Same 
experience as Tony.


I normally don't post much here; I read everything, but I don't do much 
with my collection anymore.  Bill advertised his proposed new mailing list 
on alt.folklore.computers (and, I'm sure, other places; that was where I 
read it) and you had to write a paragraph or two on why you wanted to 
join.  I don't have the message Bill wrote back to me anymore, but I 
remember him telling me I was number 6 to reply.  My message to him, which 
I did save, is dated the evening of March 12, 1997, and I seem to recall 
the list started a couple of days later.


The list's 20th anniversary is coming up very soon!

Richard Schauer

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[jim stephens]

On 10/13/2016 9:39 PM, tony duell wrote:

Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost from day 1, and my first
question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are minicomputers
welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'

Earliest I could find (I think)

From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk *Wed Apr  2 20:42:09 1997*
From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (*A.R. Duell)*
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 20:42:09 BST
Subject: How long will they last?
In-Reply-To: 
; 
from "Bill Whitson" at Mar 31, 97 6:01 pm

Message-ID: <199704021942.12...@club.eng.cam.ac.uk>

>
>
> I was talking to a friend this weekend who brought
> up this idea that before long EPROMs in our old
> computers are going to start to go bad.  This is
> something I've heard before but, to be honest, I
> don't know enough to make a judgement on it.  If
> this is the case, I suppose I should be burning
> backups.

Don't bother with burning backups (after all, the backup will only last
another 10 years), but dump the data (as a plain binary file) to a
suitable archival storage medium.

What I recomend is _before_ even powering up a machine is to dump all the
ROMs, the PALs (an amazing number of classic computers have
non-copy-protected PALS), etc to a PC-format disk. Then punch any really
rare stuff onto paper tape (You may laugh, but I've _never_ found a paper
tape that I can't read, and EPROM files are not that big in general). If
the chips ever fail in the future, then It's easy to burn a new EPROM
then.

>
> While I'm at it... What are some other concerns
> along these lines.  What should we be planning
> for as these machines grow 5, 10, 15 years  older?

Well, there's no problem with standard electronic parts (resistors,
capacitors, TTL chips, etc). I don't think you'll have any problems
finding those in 15 years time.

Other chips are more of a problem. AMD2900 bit-slice chips are getting
hard to find, and a lot of minicomputers and their peripherals depend on
them. But I'm not sure that if I buy any now they'll still be good in 10
years time.

ASICs are a big problem. Basically, there's no hope if they fail. You
can't copy them at home. The best thing to do is to figure out _exactly_
how they work, the timing of all the signals, etc, and to record that. If
the chip fails, and you can't get one, then at least you can make a clone
out of TTL or something like a Xilinx FPGA.

I'd also recomend recording any information now that would be of use if
the machine failed. If you know what you are doing, note down the voltages
on the CRT electrodes in a monitor. The waveforms in the PLL of a disk
controller, that sort of thing. Basically, annotate the service manual
with details of _your_ machine.

>
> Bill Whitson
> ClassicCmp "owner"
> bcw at u.washington.edu   bill at booster.u.washington.edu
>


--
-tony
ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk
The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[drlegendre .]

"There are plenty of people who play the 8-bit home micro games they
grew up playing, but many of them (at least the ones I know of) run them
on a PC-based emulator not the real hardware."

You don't really think that retro video gaming is the singular, or even the
primary focus of 8-bit micro nostalgia, do you? That seems like a bit of a
shallow view, at least from my perspective.

"There are exceptions of course."

I'd offer that the membership - current and future - is largely composed of
'exceptions', and always will be. Simple truth is that +most+ folks simply
don't give a gnat's arse about any of this stupid old crap
that we've cultivated such an interest in, and built a culture around it.

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:39 PM, tony duell 
wrote:

>
> > There are still plenty of enthusiastic, younger folks who are most
> > definitely into running the "genuine old hardware" - it's just that this
> > list hasn't traditionally offered much of a draw for these users. As
> noted,
> > the list was formed by and for users of the classic-era 'big iron' gear,
> > many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in one form or another.
>
> Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost from day 1, and my first
> question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are minicomputers
> welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'
>
> > To summarize, the future of a list like this is in the 8-bit (even
> 16-bit)
> > "home computer" kids.. like myself. They are fond of CBM, Atari, Apple,
> > BBC, TI, Timex-Sinclair, Osborne, Kaypro, Wang and so on. If the hobby is
> > to remain alive, these folks need to be welcomed in..
>
> There are plenty of people who play the 8-bit home micro games they
> grew up playing, but many of them (at least the ones I know of) run them
> on a PC-based emulator not the real hardware.
>
> There are exceptions of course.
>
> -tony
>

RE: Getting out of the hobby

[tony duell]

> There are still plenty of enthusiastic, younger folks who are most
> definitely into running the "genuine old hardware" - it's just that this
> list hasn't traditionally offered much of a draw for these users. As noted,
> the list was formed by and for users of the classic-era 'big iron' gear,
> many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in one form or another.

Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost from day 1, and my first
question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are minicomputers
welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'

> To summarize, the future of a list like this is in the 8-bit (even 16-bit)
> "home computer" kids.. like myself. They are fond of CBM, Atari, Apple,
> BBC, TI, Timex-Sinclair, Osborne, Kaypro, Wang and so on. If the hobby is
> to remain alive, these folks need to be welcomed in..

There are plenty of people who play the 8-bit home micro games they
grew up playing, but many of them (at least the ones I know of) run them
on a PC-based emulator not the real hardware. 

There are exceptions of course.

-tony

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[drlegendre .]

Couple more words on this..

"I do feel the hobby has changed. I haven't, which is why I don't post
much here any more. When I started it was all people trying to restore
and run the genuine old hardware. Now it seems there are a lot of
emulators running on hardware I don't understand"

There are still plenty of enthusiastic, younger folks who are most
definitely into running the "genuine old hardware" - it's just that this
list hasn't traditionally offered much of a draw for these users. As noted,
the list was formed by and for users of the classic-era 'big iron' gear,
many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in one form or another.

To summarize, the future of a list like this is in the 8-bit (even 16-bit)
"home computer" kids.. like myself. They are fond of CBM, Atari, Apple,
BBC, TI, Timex-Sinclair, Osborne, Kaypro, Wang and so on. If the hobby is
to remain alive, these folks need to be welcomed in..

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 7:00 PM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
>
> On 10/13/2016 12:46 PM, tony duell wrote:
>
>> Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones (for once). I started being interested
>> in classic computers long before most people...
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I do feel the hobby has changed. I haven't, which is why I don't post
>> much here any more. When I started it was all people trying to restore
>> and run the genuine old hardware. Now it seems there are a lot of
>> emulators running on hardware I don't understand. And add-ons to
>> perfectly understandable and hackable machines using microcontrollers
>> and FPGAs that you can't probe with a logic analyser. That sort of thing
>> is what I got into classic computing to avoid, so I am not going to
>> put such devices into my PDPs, etc.
>>
>> -tony
>>
>
> Hear, hear!
>
> - J.
>
>
>

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 10/13/2016 12:46 PM, tony duell wrote:

Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones (for once). I started being interested
in classic computers long before most people...

...

I do feel the hobby has changed. I haven't, which is why I don't post
much here any more. When I started it was all people trying to restore
and run the genuine old hardware. Now it seems there are a lot of
emulators running on hardware I don't understand. And add-ons to
perfectly understandable and hackable machines using microcontrollers
and FPGAs that you can't probe with a logic analyser. That sort of thing
is what I got into classic computing to avoid, so I am not going to
put such devices into my PDPs, etc.

-tony


Hear, hear!

- J.

RE: Getting out of the hobby

[tony duell]

> Recent activity on the list, especially the "Ka... ching!" thread, has
> had me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there
> are two things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money,
> and the age of the stuff. I'll try to explain.

Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones (for once). I started being interested
in classic computers long before most people, Back when I could find
interesting machines that I could afford. And I have kept them. For all
people told me to 'downsize the collection' when I was moving house,
I moved the lot. 

So while I am saddened by the price rises, it doesn;t affect me too much.
I have enough projects to keep me going for the rest of my life and then
some :-) (And before somebody asks, yes I have made a will). The problem
for me (being selfish) about high prices is that if I am missing some option
that I want/need, I am probably not going to be able to afford it. 

It does sadden me, though, that many enthusiasts are not going to be 
able to get interesting machines to play with and learn from. I am very
much in favour of running these old machines, the sort of collector who
buys them as an investment and never turns them on has nothing in 
common with me. And I do not accept that people who have paid a lot
for a machine will look after it better than those who (a few years 
earlier) got it for peanuts.

The nostalgia aspect doesn't really interest me. I do not want the home
computers that friends had, I do not want to play the games I didn't
play years ago. I want interesting pieces of electronics that I probably
hadn't heard of when they were current. 

The age of the hardware doesn't bother me. Sure I have to replace 
antisocial mains filter capacitors, replace failed ICs, etc. But I was doing
that 20 years ago. So that doesn't seem to be a recent problem.

I do feel the hobby has changed. I haven't, which is why I don't post
much here any more. When I started it was all people trying to restore
and run the genuine old hardware. Now it seems there are a lot of 
emulators running on hardware I don't understand. And add-ons to
perfectly understandable and hackable machines using microcontrollers
and FPGAs that you can't probe with a logic analyser. That sort of thing
is what I got into classic computing to avoid, so I am not going to 
put such devices into my PDPs, etc. 

-tony

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Julian Wolfe]

Funny, there's this 11/23+ (BA11-S style) I bought from Pavl Zachary many years 
ago, it's been a near-constant companion through all of my moves and most of 
the VCF Midwests.  Despite the bouncing, banging, and shuffling, it's always 
worked.  It ran 24/7 at my home for much of its life, without so much as a 
hiccup.



We found a brand new 11/23+ a few weeks ago that promptly smoked its power 
supply on power-on.


I have a second unit that I keep for spares, but the power supply gets flicked 
on regularly whenever I can remember to do so, just to keep the caps from 
drying up.  I've never needed any of its parts.



My experience is that classic computers are like anything else that isn't 
exercised regularly - it isn't just sufficient to repair them and take them out 
every few years for use.  They need love.



If it were me in your place, I'd pare down what you have and just use your 
favorites on a regular basis for minimum grief.




 On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 13:07:29 -0700Seth Morabito li...@loomcom.com 
wrote 




Hey folks, 

 

Recent activity on the list, especially the "Ka... ching!" thread, has 

had me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there 

are two things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money, 

and the age of the stuff. I'll try to explain. 

 

I've never been a real "collector", I suppose. I don't feel a burning 

need to fill every hole in a product line, or to put things on display. 

I've also never been in this for the money, far from it. No, the only 

reason I've ever collected classic computers is because I've loved 

playing with them. That's really all there is to it. I enjoy the sights, 

sounds, and smells of firing up vintage computers and seeing them work. 

 

On the money front, as I said I've never been in this for the money. 

There was a time when most of this stuff could just be had for free, and 

that was fun! Going on rescue trips was a blast. I'll never regret 

driving down to LA from the Bay Area to rescue a PDP-11/34, or the time 

that a bunch of us got togethr and picked up an 11/45 and an Imlac PDS-1 

from Bill Gosper's house. What a time that was -- I didn't even keep any 

of it, I was just there for the rescue and the camaraderie. 

 

But nowadays, there's so much less of that. 99% of what trades hands 

seems to go back and forth on eBay for real big bucks. And that's 

probably just the sign of a maturing hobby, but it's not really what I 

enjoy. 

 

And secondly, lately there's been a lot less of "firing up vintage 

computers and seeing them work", and a whole lot more "carefully 

replacing capacitors and praying that the vintage computer will still 

fire up". We've reached the point where the hardware I love is dying. 

It's been dying for years, I suppose, but now it's in hospice care. And, 

frankly, that part of it is so much less fun for me than actually using 

the systems. Am I just lazy? Maybe. And don't get me wrong, I've learned 

SO MUCH about electronics from taking care of these systems, so I don't 

consider it a loss at all. It's just not what I want to spend my time 

on. 

 

I've been ruminating on all of this pretty hard for the last couple of 

months, and I've concluded that my enjoyment just isn't there any more. 

Now that I'm surrounded by a bunch of stuff that I'm not getting 

much out of, I feel like I'm being weighed down by the hobby. I think 

it's time for me to move on and concentrate on other things. 

 

I'm not sure yet what that means for my current collection. It's already 

much smaller than it once was, as I've found homes for a lot of things 

over the years. I've moved a lot, and every time I've moved I've found 

homes for things I didn't want to take with me. It's probably time to do 

that again, only without the moving part. 

 

I think probably I'll have one last big "sale" of stuff, which I'll post 

about here. At this point most of what I have is vintage home computers, 

terminals, and QBUS PDP-11 stuff, so not everyone will be interested in 

it -- but maybe some people will. 

 

-Seth 

-- 

Seth Morabito 

w...@loomcom.com 

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Philipp Hachtmann]

On 10/11/2016 10:07 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:


I've ever collected classic computers is because I've loved
playing with them. That's really all there is to it. I enjoy the sights,
sounds, and smells of firing up vintage computers and seeing them work.

Oh, I agree so strongly!


On the money front, as I said I've never been in this for the money.
There was a time when most of this stuff could just be had for free, and
that was fun! Going on rescue trips was a blast.
I'll never regret
driving down to LA from the Bay Area to rescue a PDP-11/34, or the time
that a bunch of us got togethr and picked up an 11/45 and an Imlac PDS-1
from Bill Gosper's house. What a time that was -- I didn't even keep any
of it, I was just there for the rescue and the camaraderie.
Oh, this part of your posting remembers me to interesting times that 
have passed without me realizing the point when that happened.
I also remember the feeling when you find some stash full of interesting 
things. The dirt, cleaning, trucks and trailers full of gear. I liked 
it. But in the last years those opportunities are getting rare. My last 
real haul was in 2013 when I picked up some pdp8/e systems.

But who knows what will be...


And secondly, lately there's been a lot less of "firing up vintage
computers and seeing them work", and a whole lot more "carefully
replacing capacitors and praying that the vintage computer will still
fire up".  We've reached the point where the hardware I love is dying.
Hm, don't fully agree. Yes, capacitors can be nasty. But repair is a big 
part of the hobby.

When I fire up a machine, I always expect that it needs some repair.

Sometimes I thought of getting out of the hobby as well. It comsumes so 
much (partially rented!) space full of strange "scrap". And during the 
last years my life has moved on a bit, there's less time left.

On the other hand I always regretted badly when I let go something.
In the 1990s, I was about 17 and not yet in vintage computers, I put a 
fully working mint condition and complete Tandy 200, including power 
supply, manuals, original bag - to the trash can. I regretted that...


And the stuff you let go today, might never come back. Ok, QBus and 
newer stuff might have a higher availability.



Kind regards

Philipp




--

Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann
Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialitäten

Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover
Tel. 0511/352, Mobil 0171/2632239
Fax. 0511/3500439
phil...@hachtmann.com
www.tiegeldruck.de

UStdID DE 202668329

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[jim stephens]

On 10/11/2016 1:07 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:

Hey folks,

Recent activity on the list, especially the "Ka... ching!" thread, has
had me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there
are two things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money,
and the age of the stuff. I'll try to explain.

Seth, as others said, sorry to hear you are losing interest, and don't 
want to suggest that you should not move on to another interest.  I had 
a friend who went from competitive shooting (45ACP) to Skeet shooting 
(3rd in the US), to racing boats (had at one time the US speed record 
for a 6 cyl outboard), to Astronomy, and then on to cameras.  So one can 
evolve in the hobbies and move on.


I find that the thing I like that will suck me in forever is both the 
thrill of the chase of finding something, and being really satisfied 
when I find some collection of parts, or just a system that works.  in 
the former, I've bought interesting gizmos and years later have found 
parts that complemented or were parts of the system, or even completed 
it.  In the latter, finding something and examining it after getting it 
is the other part.


Just my $0.02 worth.  I will probably thin the herd too, as since my 
interest lies in some amount of the thrill of the chase, once I have 
something, I hope to pass it along to someone else to enjoy.


The thing here that is unique to this list and other places is just the 
collection of knowledge.  I hope we don't lose out on what you've known 
and you keep some connection to pass on what you've learned.


Best in your collecting.  I'll be watching and be interested in your stuff.

thanks
Jim

RE: Getting out of the hobby

[Brad H]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 5:41 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Getting out of the hobby

On Oct 11, 2016 3:48 PM, "Brad H" <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
wrote:
> I always enjoyed the repair aspect of the hobby more than use, 
> although I
do
> enjoy some use.  The learning is the best part, I think.  It's almost 
> a letdown when something is already just working.

>Weird Stuff Warehouse used to put "Guaranteed Not to Work" stickers on some of 
>the items they sold. One time I >bought an Atari 800 with such a sticker, 
>intending to part it out to repair other machines. To my dismay, it worked 
>>perfectly. I went back and complained. They said I was the only person to 
>have ever complained, but that they would >honor the guarantee if I brought it 
>back, i.e., they would break it for me.

That is hilarious, and awesome. :)  It really does kind of suck the fun out of 
it.  When I got my Digital Group Z80 I couldn't even find a photo of one 
operating with something on the screen.  Mine wasn't operating at all so I 
literally had no idea what to expect.  When I finally got a (corrupted) prompt 
it was like discovering an ancient Egyptian tomb.  Sort of. :)  I can't wait to 
try getting my Phideck working with it.

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Alexandre Souza]

When I decided my collection gave more troubles than fun, I stored
everything in plastic boxes and stashed on a room at my mother's house.
Some years later...ta-daaa! :D Happiness forever! :D

2016-10-12 1:19 GMT-03:00 Paul Anderson :

> Hi Seth,
>
> I'm sorry to see anyone leave the list or the hobby for any reason, but
> especially because of comments made on the list.
>
> I strongly agree with Rob.  Hang on to some of your favorite toys. You
> never know when you might want to play with them again. I have a lot of
> regrets from letting go a lot of equipment that I might never find again.
>
> Paul
>
> On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Cameron Kaiser 
> wrote:
>
> > > > The learning is the best part, I think.  It's almost a
> > > > letdown when something is already just working.
> > >
> > > Weird Stuff Warehouse used to put "Guaranteed Not to Work" stickers on
> > some
> > > of the items they sold. One time I bought an Atari 800 with such a
> > sticker,
> > > intending to part it out to repair other machines. To my dismay, it
> > worked
> > > perfectly. I went back and complained. They said I was the only person
> to
> > > have ever complained, but that they would honor the guarantee if I
> > brought
> > > it back, i.e., they would break it for me.
> >
> > It's that attention to quality and customer satisfaction that is so
> sorely
> > lacking today.
> >
> > --
> >  personal:
> > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
> >   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
> > ckai...@floodgap.com
> > -- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. --
> > 
> >
>

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Paul Anderson]

Hi Seth,

I'm sorry to see anyone leave the list or the hobby for any reason, but
especially because of comments made on the list.

I strongly agree with Rob.  Hang on to some of your favorite toys. You
never know when you might want to play with them again. I have a lot of
regrets from letting go a lot of equipment that I might never find again.

Paul

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Cameron Kaiser 
wrote:

> > > The learning is the best part, I think.  It's almost a
> > > letdown when something is already just working.
> >
> > Weird Stuff Warehouse used to put "Guaranteed Not to Work" stickers on
> some
> > of the items they sold. One time I bought an Atari 800 with such a
> sticker,
> > intending to part it out to repair other machines. To my dismay, it
> worked
> > perfectly. I went back and complained. They said I was the only person to
> > have ever complained, but that they would honor the guarantee if I
> brought
> > it back, i.e., they would break it for me.
>
> It's that attention to quality and customer satisfaction that is so sorely
> lacking today.
>
> --
>  personal:
> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
> ckai...@floodgap.com
> -- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. --
> 
>

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Cameron Kaiser]

> > The learning is the best part, I think.  It's almost a
> > letdown when something is already just working.
> 
> Weird Stuff Warehouse used to put "Guaranteed Not to Work" stickers on some
> of the items they sold. One time I bought an Atari 800 with such a sticker,
> intending to part it out to repair other machines. To my dismay, it worked
> perfectly. I went back and complained. They said I was the only person to
> have ever complained, but that they would honor the guarantee if I brought
> it back, i.e., they would break it for me.

It's that attention to quality and customer satisfaction that is so sorely
lacking today.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. --

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Marc Howard]

Sigh.  For a second there I thought you were going to be getting rid of an
11/45.  That would be my dream machine as I used one at Ohio State in the
very early days (mid 70's) of computer graphics.  I designed one frame
buffer and part of another to run on that machine.

Marc

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 1:41 PM,  wrote:

> That is a real shame, but if you aren't enjoying it there us little point
> carrying on. I also have to agree that it is dispiriting at times when you
> are constantly dealing with new failures.
>
> I suspect though that years later you may regret getting rid of your
> collection, you hear this from many people. So I would suggest you don't
> get rid of *everything*, in case you change your mind in the future.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
> From: Seth Morabito

RE: Getting out of the hobby

[Eric Smith]

On Oct 11, 2016 3:48 PM, "Brad H" 
wrote:
> I always enjoyed the repair aspect of the hobby more than use, although I
do
> enjoy some use.  The learning is the best part, I think.  It's almost a
> letdown when something is already just working.

Weird Stuff Warehouse used to put "Guaranteed Not to Work" stickers on some
of the items they sold. One time I bought an Atari 800 with such a sticker,
intending to part it out to repair other machines. To my dismay, it worked
perfectly. I went back and complained. They said I was the only person to
have ever complained, but that they would honor the guarantee if I brought
it back, i.e., they would break it for me.

Re: Getting out of the hobby

[Terry Stewart]

Yes, some things I've enjoy about the hobby is..

1. Admiring the "design" aspect of machines back in those days (all unique
and all different) and experiencing them hands-on
2. Learning about the machines, their origins and purpose (from reading,
watching videos and hands on)  and thereby learning a lot about computer
history
3, Writing about them, videoing them.
4. Talking with others about them
5. Repairing them (and thereby learning a lot about digital electronics)

It's not my only hobby though, and VC doesn't dominate my life.  The
nostalgic factor with me is not great.  I was an adult before they were
popular (or in school) so I was never in my bedroom playing games with
others in my formative years.  Although I did play games as an adult (some
arcade but esp, text-based Adventure games), my interest in them at the
time was always more as productivity tools, in particular for writing and
statistical analysis. There is SOME nostalgia in the TRS-80-type
culture...I can't deny that but I'm certainly not that interested in the
retro-gamer scene.

I've got very limited room, which means I've been very disciplined with
what I've got.

Eventually I hope to run a few private, temporary exhibitions, perhaps in
our local museum...maybe when I retire.

What will happen to them when I become old and infirm?  Well, who knows.  I
do have a daughter and step-son who are IT specialists.  They may or may
not be interested.  As it is, I'm still happy to pull them out, admire
them, reflect on the period they represent and keep them going if I can.

Terry (Tez)

P.S. Chuck, please stay active in the community.  Your knowledge is on
disks and disk formats is legendary. Many (including me) appreciate the
help you've given them.

RE: Getting out of the hobby

[Brad H]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Seth
Morabito
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 1:07 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Getting out of the hobby

Hey folks,

Recent activity on the list, especially the "Ka... ching!" thread, has had
me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there are two
things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money, and the age of
the stuff. I'll try to explain.

I've never been a real "collector", I suppose. I don't feel a burning need
to fill every hole in a product line, or to put things on display.
I've also never been in this for the money, far from it. No, the only reason
I've ever collected classic computers is because I've loved playing with
them. That's really all there is to it. I enjoy the sights, sounds, and
smells of firing up vintage computers and seeing them work.

I'm not sure yet what that means for my current collection. It's already
much smaller than it once was, as I've found homes for a lot of things over
the years. I've moved a lot, and every time I've moved I've found homes for
things I didn't want to take with me. It's probably time to do that again,
only without the moving part.

I think probably I'll have one last big "sale" of stuff, which I'll post
about here. At this point most of what I have is vintage home computers,
terminals, and QBUS PDP-11 stuff, so not everyone will be interested in it
-- but maybe some people will.

-Seth
--
> Seth Morabito
>w...@loomcom.com

I hear ya, especially on the hospice stuff.  This is an issue if you're
collecting cars newer than the mid-80s.. some of the computers (ie. ABS
controller) aren't available anymore and repairs are not possible.  On older
cars you could always make what you didn't have (at great expense, yes) but
at least you could theoretically do it.  Not likely with ICs.

I always enjoyed the repair aspect of the hobby more than use, although I do
enjoy some use.  The learning is the best part, I think.  It's almost a
letdown when something is already just working.

Hunting would be really fun -- I had that experience with cars but not
computers.  Just doesn't seem to be much vintage stuff to hunt for in my
part of British Columbia.

Sorry to hear you're leaving.  Best to you regardless!

RE: Getting out of the hobby

[robert.jarratt]

That is a real shame, but if you aren't enjoying it there us little point 
carrying on. I also have to agree that it is dispiriting at times when you are 
constantly dealing with new failures.

I suspect though that years later you may regret getting rid of your 
collection, you hear this from many people. So I would suggest you don't get 
rid of *everything*, in case you change your mind in the future.

Regards

Rob

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Seth Morabito

Getting out of the hobby

[Seth Morabito]

Hey folks,

Recent activity on the list, especially the "Ka... ching!" thread, has
had me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there
are two things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money,
and the age of the stuff. I'll try to explain.

I've never been a real "collector", I suppose. I don't feel a burning
need to fill every hole in a product line, or to put things on display.
I've also never been in this for the money, far from it. No, the only
reason I've ever collected classic computers is because I've loved
playing with them. That's really all there is to it. I enjoy the sights,
sounds, and smells of firing up vintage computers and seeing them work.

On the money front, as I said I've never been in this for the money.
There was a time when most of this stuff could just be had for free, and
that was fun! Going on rescue trips was a blast. I'll never regret
driving down to LA from the Bay Area to rescue a PDP-11/34, or the time
that a bunch of us got togethr and picked up an 11/45 and an Imlac PDS-1
from Bill Gosper's house. What a time that was -- I didn't even keep any
of it, I was just there for the rescue and the camaraderie.

But nowadays, there's so much less of that. 99% of what trades hands
seems to go back and forth on eBay for real big bucks. And that's
probably just the sign of a maturing hobby, but it's not really what I
enjoy.

And secondly, lately there's been a lot less of "firing up vintage
computers and seeing them work", and a whole lot more "carefully
replacing capacitors and praying that the vintage computer will still
fire up".  We've reached the point where the hardware I love is dying.
It's been dying for years, I suppose, but now it's in hospice care. And,
frankly, that part of it is so much less fun for me than actually using
the systems. Am I just lazy? Maybe. And don't get me wrong, I've learned
SO MUCH about electronics from taking care of these systems, so I don't
consider it a loss at all. It's just not what I want to spend my time
on.

I've been ruminating on all of this pretty hard for the last couple of
months, and I've concluded that my enjoyment just isn't there any more.
Now that I'm surrounded by a bunch of stuff that I'm not getting
much out of, I feel like I'm being weighed down by the hobby. I think
it's time for me to move on and concentrate on other things.

I'm not sure yet what that means for my current collection. It's already
much smaller than it once was, as I've found homes for a lot of things
over the years. I've moved a lot, and every time I've moved I've found
homes for things I didn't want to take with me. It's probably time to do
that again, only without the moving part.

I think probably I'll have one last big "sale" of stuff, which I'll post
about here. At this point most of what I have is vintage home computers,
terminals, and QBUS PDP-11 stuff, so not everyone will be interested in
it -- but maybe some people will.

-Seth
-- 
Seth Morabito
w...@loomcom.com