Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Arno Kletzander]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2016 12:29:06 -0400, Paul Koning  wrote:
> There are inkjet printers that support white ink (or pigment). Those are 
> probably professional type machines, so they are likely to cost over $1000. 
> Possibly you can find a service bureau that will do the job. I think I've 
> seem them described as machines for making labels (to put onto bottles and 
> boxes etc.). Epson makes them if I remember right, and there are likely to be 
> others.

We have a couple @work to put datecodes, tracability numbers etc. on PCB 
assemblies, but they're probably more commonly used to print e.g. freshness 
dates directly onto cans, bottles etc. Ours are made by Markem Imaje in France, 
they can also do logos, 1D and 2D codes, and I _think_ there are white inks for 
them as well. They are also intended for integration into some machine or 
process as they depend on the material moving by and sensing its speed by an 
encoder. Ink droplets are continuously produced from a single nozzle and 
electrostatically deflected in 2 axes, either into a gutter inside the print 
head or out through the aperture and onto the medium. Using such to print onto 
clear adhesive label stock might be a start, but the resolution is 
hmmm...limited.

So long,
Arno

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Rod Smallwood]

On 29/09/2016 19:02, Fred Cisin wrote:
This definitely sounds like a place where it would be good to have 
one person specialize in this, rather than everyone rolling their own.

Anyone up for becoming label-meister?


On Thu, 29 Sep 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote:
There is a process used for  decals. You peel the back off and press 
on to whatever. Then peel the front of and there you are.
Clear labels are available (I think). Printing black on clear OK. 
White is a problem. You need a special printer.

(such as P-Touch label maker)


Rod (Panelman) Smallwood


If you would be willing to add it to your endeavors, . . .
it would seem that   The Panelman  would be the obvious choice to 
coordinate, catalog, commission, and market such decals and labels!






Anybody else interested in this one?
Rod (Panelman) Smallwood

--
PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i
Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Fred Cisin]

This definitely sounds like a place where it would be good to have one 
person specialize in this, rather than everyone rolling their own.

Anyone up for becoming label-meister?


On Thu, 29 Sep 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote:
There is a process used for  decals. You peel the back off and press on to 
whatever. Then peel the front of and there you are.
Clear labels are available (I think). Printing black on clear OK. White is 
a problem. You need a special printer.

(such as P-Touch label maker)


Rod (Panelman) Smallwood


If you would be willing to add it to your endeavors, . . .
it would seem that   The Panelman  would be the obvious choice to 
coordinate, catalog, commission, and market such decals and labels!

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Fred Cisin]

SOME of the Brother P-Touch label machines have a USB port, making it
possible to print a JPG, and not be stuck with the internal fonts.
The machines are readily available that take up to 1" wide, although 3/4" is
a more common upper limit.  I don't know which machines will take wider
media.


On Thu, 29 Sep 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote:

That would be a good list to explore.
I used to have one of these - it was sent to recycling in the past
year in part because I didn't have any TZ tapes and because the
drivers for it were for Mac OS 7 and Windows 3.1... (it was not USB -
it was RS-232 - it was far older than USB)


The term they use is "connectible"|"connectable"
I'd recommend the ones with keyboard, since it is a little more convenient 
to use the internals when you don't need fonts and graphics.

Check out the PTD600 ($70)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/381136194700 (newegg)
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps=ptd600


Note: old machines will take TZ tapes AND take TZE tapes.  New machines 
will take TZE tapes, and will NOT take TZ tapes.  Difference appears to be 
a hole in the cartridge and a plastic peg in the newer machines for the 
purpose of preventing using the older (widely copied) tapes.  Once the 
"new" tapes are more widely copied, maybe they will "upgrade" to one 
with TWO pegs.  Cutting off peg in machine would void warranty.  Drilling 
hole in cartridge might be prosecutable under DMCA?   Mine is an old 
PT-2600; until it finishes dying, and I replace it with a newer (TZE), I 
haven't needed to experiment.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2016, Doug Ingraham wrote:

I noticed that the local stores don't tend to stock the white on clear
tape.  I had to order the cartridge I have.


Amazon.com lists them

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Ethan Dicks]

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:57 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Sep 2016, Doug Ingraham wrote:
>>
>> White on clear is available with the Brother P-Touch label system. Just do
>> a google search for white on clear label tape.

Right.  That's one approach if bitmaps are possible.  The usual
internal fonts are not close.

> SOME of the Brother P-Touch label machines have a USB port, making it
> possible to print a JPG, and not be stuck with the internal fonts.

That would be a good list to explore.

> The machines are readily available that take up to 1" wide, although 3/4" is
> a more common upper limit.  I don't know which machines will take wider
> media.

I used to have one of these - it was sent to recycling in the past
year in part because I didn't have any TZ tapes and because the
drivers for it were for Mac OS 7 and Windows 3.1... (it was not USB -
it was RS-232 - it was far older than USB)

-ethan

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Ethan Dicks]

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Rod Smallwood
 wrote:
>>  > From: Ethan Dicks
>>
>>  > One aspect of it is that some of the labels are damaged
>>  > ...
>>  > Before embarking on spinning up a process, I thought I'd ask if
>> anyone
>>  > has already done so.
>
>  I seem to remember that at least some of the markings were not actually
> labels but  screened onto the  chassis.

Some were, but not what I'm looking at.

> White for black metalwork and black on unpainted cad and pass metalwork.

Right.  Specifically, it's white on black metalwork that I'm
addressing.  Black letters are easy - use a laser printer on clear
adhesive material.

> There is a process used for  decals. You peel the back off and press on to
> whatever. Then peel the front of and there you are.

For cut vinyl (an option), that's how it's done - the knife scores the
adhesive vinyl then you put a transfer tape on top, peel the back,
remove all the vinyl fragments you don't want, then apply the transfer
tape and desired letters to the target and remove the transfer tape.

> Clear labels are available (I think). Printing black on clear OK. White is a
> problem. You need a special printer.

Yes.  That's the entire point of asking if anyone has gone down this
road before - the answers are things like
  a) special printer
  b) silk screen masks
  c) stamps and paint
  d) send it to a professional

Each approach has conveniences, inconveniences and cost.

-ethan

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2016, Doug Ingraham wrote:
White on clear is available with the Brother P-Touch label system. 
Just do a google search for white on clear label tape.


SOME of the Brother P-Touch label machines have a USB port, making it 
possible to print a JPG, and not be stuck with the internal fonts.


The machines are readily available that take up to 1" wide, although 3/4" 
is a more common upper limit.  I don't know which machines will take wider 
media.

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Jon Elson]

On 09/29/2016 11:12 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote:




 I seem to remember that at least some of the markings 
were not actually labels but  screened onto the  chassis.


White for black metalwork and black on unpainted cad and 
pass metalwork.


There is a process used for  decals. You peel the back off 
and press on to whatever. Then peel the front of and there 
you are.


I use some expensive stuff from Vital Presentation 
Concepts.  It has 2 parts.  There is a photosensitive label 
material that has a sheet of dye and a sheet of 
photoactivated superglue.  What you expose to UV gets sticky 
and pulls the dye off the other sheet.  Then, you turn this 
sheet over and stick it down to a double-sticky base layer.  
The image is between the two plastic layers, so it is quite 
durable.  They have many dye colors, and they do have a 
clear base sheet, too.  So, it looks like they have the 
combination of colors to do white lettering on a clear 
base.  This stuff is NOT cheap, it will cost about $200 to 
get the basic stuff (5 sheets of imaging film, 5 base sheets 
and the peeling pad).  You will also need a way to make 
master images (laser printer transparencies should work) and 
a UF exposing frame.


See
https://www.vpcinc.com/Category/Quick-Mark-UV-Photographic-49.cfm

for more details.

I use this stuff for instrument panel labels.  I use blue 
imaging film on a white base.  Then, I use an Xacto knife to 
cut out for around all the switches, etc.  I make the photo 
masters on a laser photoplotter, which assures the lettering 
all comes out right where it is supposed to.  (A laser 
printer will not be as accurate, but would be fine for a 
simple label.)


Here's an example of one of my units that shows the label well :
http://pico-systems.com/switcher.html

I'm not suggesting this is what anybody should do, I'm just 
pointing out that this material does exist, and can be used 
to make some good-looking labels.


(I am also NOT volunteering to make DEC labels for anybody!)

Jon

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Paul Koning]

> On Sep 29, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Rod Smallwood  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> Clear labels are available (I think). Printing black on clear OK. White is a 
> problem. You need a special printer.

There are inkjet printers that support white ink (or pigment).  Those are 
probably professional type machines, so they are likely to cost over $1000.  
Possibly you can find a service bureau that will do the job.  I think I've seem 
them described as machines for making labels (to put onto bottles and boxes 
etc.).  Epson makes them if I remember right, and there are likely to be others.

paul

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Rod Smallwood]

On 29/09/2016 16:12, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Ethan Dicks

 > One aspect of it is that some of the labels are damaged
 > ...
 > Before embarking on spinning up a process, I thought I'd ask if anyone
 > has already done so.

This definitely sounds like a place where it would be good to have one person
specialize in this, rather than everyone rolling their own.

I, for instance, could use a number of these labels (starting with the one
that lists the boards in the 11/45 CPU - although that one's black on white).

Anyone up for becoming label-meister?

Noel


Hi

 I seem to remember that at least some of the markings were not 
actually labels but  screened onto the  chassis.


White for black metalwork and black on unpainted cad and pass metalwork.

There is a process used for  decals. You peel the back off and press on 
to whatever. Then peel the front of and there you are.


Clear labels are available (I think). Printing black on clear OK. White 
is a problem. You need a special printer.


Rod (Panelman) Smallwood


--
PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i
Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Ethan Dicks

> One aspect of it is that some of the labels are damaged
> ...
> Before embarking on spinning up a process, I thought I'd ask if anyone
> has already done so. 

This definitely sounds like a place where it would be good to have one person
specialize in this, rather than everyone rolling their own.

I, for instance, could use a number of these labels (starting with the one
that lists the boards in the 11/45 CPU - although that one's black on white).

Anyone up for becoming label-meister?

Noel

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[steven]

> Hi, All,
>
> I'm restoring some stuff from the mid 1970s and a recent acquisition
> was previously cleaned of mouse damage but needs to be sanded and
> repainted by me.  One aspect of it is that some of the labels are
> damaged (but some can probably be masked and painted around).  The
> level of damage I'm talking about looks a bit like this...
>
> http://fritzm.github.io/images/pdp11/h742-corrosion.jpg
>
> Most of the item intact, but rust and scale to be cleaned, sanded,
> primed and painted.  The damage to the label in that pic is
> representative.
>
> I have access to all the modern tools, so it's easy to print black on
> clear adhesive sheet, but not so much with white.  Before embarking on
> spinning up a process, I thought I'd ask if anyone has already done
> so.  In particular interest to me is the era from about 1965-1980,
> from PDP-8s through PDP-11s and VAX-11 machines, both CPUs and
> peripherals.  I would like to get close matches and I already know in
> some cases, there just aren't close matches with modern TrueType font
> files.  I can, of course, just take photos of the label areas now,
> restore the damage, and put on stickers some time in the future, but
> doing it all at once has its own appeal
>
> -ethan


A few months ago I made a test transparent waterslide decal to see how it
would turn out, in preparation for a larger piece.
Seeing the subject of this thread, it prompted me to make a note and put
up some photos at
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?643-DECals

It's not difficult at all if the colours involved are not white. In
Ethan's situation however, screenprinting or vinyl stencil cutting may
work better.

Steve.

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Doug Ingraham]

White on clear is available with the Brother P-Touch label system.  Just do
a google search for white on clear label tape.



On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 1:05 AM, Fritz Mueller  wrote:

> Hi Ethan,
>
> On my 11/45, the big power supply regulator stickers on the back of the
> CPU cabinet were also badly damaged.  As part of my restore, I went to some
> effort to make suitable replacements.  The originals were white on clear.
>
> I found that stickeryou.com did a nice job with white on clear (look
> under their “Clear Stickers” category).  It’s a little pricey at $18 for a
> single page, but the two big power supply stickers I needed were most of a
> page so I went for it, and was pleased with the results.  I’ll put a pic of
> this up on my blog soon in case others are interested in how this turned
> out.
>
> I would still like to replace the exact sticker you linked to below, but
> couldn’t justify a whole page to get just that one small sticker…. Please
> let me know if you would like to put together a full page of various
> smaller stickers and split the cost, though!
>
> A black on white vinyl process would probably also look okay for some of
> the smaller stickers, I think, if you could get a laser print with a
> suitably dense and uniform black field.  Interested in hearing if some of
> the other restorers here have different/better suggestions for this.
>
> For the smallest stickers in my restore (connector/plug labels where I was
> not particularly concerned with matching artwork/fonts) I have been using a
> Brother P-touch labeler with black-on-clear and white-on-black tape
> cartridges.
>
> cheers,
>—FritzM.
>
> > On Sep 28, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> >
> > Hi, All,
> >
> > I'm restoring some stuff from the mid 1970s and a recent acquisition
> > was previously cleaned of mouse damage but needs to be sanded and
> > repainted by me.  One aspect of it is that some of the labels are
> > damaged (but some can probably be masked and painted around).  The
> > level of damage I'm talking about looks a bit like this...
> >
> > http://fritzm.github.io/images/pdp11/h742-corrosion.jpg
> >
> > Most of the item intact, but rust and scale to be cleaned, sanded,
> > primed and painted.  The damage to the label in that pic is
> > representative.
> >
> > I have access to all the modern tools, so it's easy to print black on
> > clear adhesive sheet, but not so much with white.  Before embarking on
> > spinning up a process, I thought I'd ask if anyone has already done
> > so.  In particular interest to me is the era from about 1965-1980,
> > from PDP-8s through PDP-11s and VAX-11 machines, both CPUs and
> > peripherals.  I would like to get close matches and I already know in
> > some cases, there just aren't close matches with modern TrueType font
> > files.  I can, of course, just take photos of the label areas now,
> > restore the damage, and put on stickers some time in the future, but
> > doing it all at once has its own appeal
> >
> > -ethan
>
>


-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Doug Ingraham]

I noticed that the local stores don't tend to stock the white on clear
tape.  I had to order the cartridge I have.



On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 8:18 AM, Doug Ingraham 
wrote:

> White on clear is available with the Brother P-Touch label system.  Just
> do a google search for white on clear label tape.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 1:05 AM, Fritz Mueller  wrote:
>
>> Hi Ethan,
>>
>> On my 11/45, the big power supply regulator stickers on the back of the
>> CPU cabinet were also badly damaged.  As part of my restore, I went to some
>> effort to make suitable replacements.  The originals were white on clear.
>>
>> I found that stickeryou.com did a nice job with white on clear (look
>> under their “Clear Stickers” category).  It’s a little pricey at $18 for a
>> single page, but the two big power supply stickers I needed were most of a
>> page so I went for it, and was pleased with the results.  I’ll put a pic of
>> this up on my blog soon in case others are interested in how this turned
>> out.
>>
>> I would still like to replace the exact sticker you linked to below, but
>> couldn’t justify a whole page to get just that one small sticker…. Please
>> let me know if you would like to put together a full page of various
>> smaller stickers and split the cost, though!
>>
>> A black on white vinyl process would probably also look okay for some of
>> the smaller stickers, I think, if you could get a laser print with a
>> suitably dense and uniform black field.  Interested in hearing if some of
>> the other restorers here have different/better suggestions for this.
>>
>> For the smallest stickers in my restore (connector/plug labels where I
>> was not particularly concerned with matching artwork/fonts) I have been
>> using a Brother P-touch labeler with black-on-clear and white-on-black tape
>> cartridges.
>>
>> cheers,
>>—FritzM.
>>
>> > On Sep 28, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi, All,
>> >
>> > I'm restoring some stuff from the mid 1970s and a recent acquisition
>> > was previously cleaned of mouse damage but needs to be sanded and
>> > repainted by me.  One aspect of it is that some of the labels are
>> > damaged (but some can probably be masked and painted around).  The
>> > level of damage I'm talking about looks a bit like this...
>> >
>> > http://fritzm.github.io/images/pdp11/h742-corrosion.jpg
>> >
>> > Most of the item intact, but rust and scale to be cleaned, sanded,
>> > primed and painted.  The damage to the label in that pic is
>> > representative.
>> >
>> > I have access to all the modern tools, so it's easy to print black on
>> > clear adhesive sheet, but not so much with white.  Before embarking on
>> > spinning up a process, I thought I'd ask if anyone has already done
>> > so.  In particular interest to me is the era from about 1965-1980,
>> > from PDP-8s through PDP-11s and VAX-11 machines, both CPUs and
>> > peripherals.  I would like to get close matches and I already know in
>> > some cases, there just aren't close matches with modern TrueType font
>> > files.  I can, of course, just take photos of the label areas now,
>> > restore the damage, and put on stickers some time in the future, but
>> > doing it all at once has its own appeal
>> >
>> > -ethan
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Doug Ingraham
> PDP-8 SN 1175
>



-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

Re: Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Fritz Mueller]

Hi Ethan,

On my 11/45, the big power supply regulator stickers on the back of the CPU 
cabinet were also badly damaged.  As part of my restore, I went to some effort 
to make suitable replacements.  The originals were white on clear.

I found that stickeryou.com did a nice job with white on clear (look under 
their “Clear Stickers” category).  It’s a little pricey at $18 for a single 
page, but the two big power supply stickers I needed were most of a page so I 
went for it, and was pleased with the results.  I’ll put a pic of this up on my 
blog soon in case others are interested in how this turned out.

I would still like to replace the exact sticker you linked to below, but 
couldn’t justify a whole page to get just that one small sticker…. Please let 
me know if you would like to put together a full page of various smaller 
stickers and split the cost, though!

A black on white vinyl process would probably also look okay for some of the 
smaller stickers, I think, if you could get a laser print with a suitably dense 
and uniform black field.  Interested in hearing if some of the other restorers 
here have different/better suggestions for this.

For the smallest stickers in my restore (connector/plug labels where I was not 
particularly concerned with matching artwork/fonts) I have been using a Brother 
P-touch labeler with black-on-clear and white-on-black tape cartridges.

cheers,
   —FritzM.

> On Sep 28, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> 
> Hi, All,
> 
> I'm restoring some stuff from the mid 1970s and a recent acquisition
> was previously cleaned of mouse damage but needs to be sanded and
> repainted by me.  One aspect of it is that some of the labels are
> damaged (but some can probably be masked and painted around).  The
> level of damage I'm talking about looks a bit like this...
> 
> http://fritzm.github.io/images/pdp11/h742-corrosion.jpg
> 
> Most of the item intact, but rust and scale to be cleaned, sanded,
> primed and painted.  The damage to the label in that pic is
> representative.
> 
> I have access to all the modern tools, so it's easy to print black on
> clear adhesive sheet, but not so much with white.  Before embarking on
> spinning up a process, I thought I'd ask if anyone has already done
> so.  In particular interest to me is the era from about 1965-1980,
> from PDP-8s through PDP-11s and VAX-11 machines, both CPUs and
> peripherals.  I would like to get close matches and I already know in
> some cases, there just aren't close matches with modern TrueType font
> files.  I can, of course, just take photos of the label areas now,
> restore the damage, and put on stickers some time in the future, but
> doing it all at once has its own appeal
> 
> -ethan

Is anyone making replacement clear labels for DEC gear?

[Ethan Dicks]

Hi, All,

I'm restoring some stuff from the mid 1970s and a recent acquisition
was previously cleaned of mouse damage but needs to be sanded and
repainted by me.  One aspect of it is that some of the labels are
damaged (but some can probably be masked and painted around).  The
level of damage I'm talking about looks a bit like this...

http://fritzm.github.io/images/pdp11/h742-corrosion.jpg

Most of the item intact, but rust and scale to be cleaned, sanded,
primed and painted.  The damage to the label in that pic is
representative.

I have access to all the modern tools, so it's easy to print black on
clear adhesive sheet, but not so much with white.  Before embarking on
spinning up a process, I thought I'd ask if anyone has already done
so.  In particular interest to me is the era from about 1965-1980,
from PDP-8s through PDP-11s and VAX-11 machines, both CPUs and
peripherals.  I would like to get close matches and I already know in
some cases, there just aren't close matches with modern TrueType font
files.  I can, of course, just take photos of the label areas now,
restore the damage, and put on stickers some time in the future, but
doing it all at once has its own appeal

-ethan