Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Liam Proven]

On 27 May 2016 at 19:29, Ali  wrote:
> So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he
> is less than impressed is understating things :).


Honestly, not wishing to be off-putting or anything, but that was a
widely-agreed crap computer in 1981 & it's about 3 orders of magnitude
worse now. It was nasty hardware with a crude clunky OS and a poor
BASIC.

Staying in the retro world, if you wanted a kid to learn BASIC -- and
that's a dubious choice, today, much as I still love it myself -- then
I'd suggest something like a Raspberry Pi Zero running RISC OS Pico.

That gives you a fast native 32-bit OS on a 32-bit CPU, the best BASIC
interpreter ever -- BBC BASIC V -- with an integrated (if weird)
editor. It's very fast, even today. They could learn about grown-up
stuff like named procedures, recursion and so on, in a BASIC that lets
you declare and manipulate a 300-400MB array and play with it. No 64kB
limits or anything, no graphical desktop, no distractions.

There are plentiful books on BBC BASIC, both for the BBC Micro and the
later RISC OS machine range. And BASIC programs in that interpreter
will run at something near the speed of compiled Pascal on an IBM PC.

Cost of hardware: GBP 5. (Assuming you can spare a mouse, keyboard,
screen, a USB wall-wart and a small MicroSD card.)

Cost of software: GBP 0. Free download.

But more seriously, something like Scratch on a Raspberry Pi 3 would
be a much more pleasant environment for a C21 kid. More colourful,
interactive, interesting and it too is free software running on a GBP
25 computer. That's about USD 35.

https://www.quora.com/If-a-10-year-old-wanted-to-start-programming-today-what-language-path-would-be-the-most-valuable-moving-forward

Honestly, I suspect that a slow, clunky, noisy old antique with
limited old-fashioned tools would turn a little kid off computers
forever. I have no kids but if I did, I wouldn't start them with a
Sinclair ZX Spectrum, even if it's what I started on!

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2016 at 05:43:44PM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 03:04:07PM -0700, Ali wrote:
> > > I was going to suggest he introduce the lad to a wide range of
> > > languages, especially non-procedural ones, and outliers such as Forth
> > > and APL.  It's much easier to grasp the concepts (and joy) of things
> > > like functional programming if you're exposed to them before
> > > confirmation bias limits your acceptance of the world.
> > 
> > Yes, of course that makes assumptions on my knowledge level as well
> > which does not quite extend to Forth or APL. 
> 
> Sorry for the late chime in, as I usually do. I am yet to read the
> whole thread, so if my suggestions have been already suggested by
> someone else, sorry for the noise too.
> 
> In case my wording makes you think otherwise, those are just humble
> suggestions.
> 
> Now, learning "older languages" bears some stigma, right? Not in my
> opinion, however. If you teach the young guy with intention to make
> him wiser, do not use cheap copout. Or at least if you must, be
> careful so he does not stick with it.
[...]
> BTW, one word: demoscene, if you can. Either classical one (there are
> new demoes written for old comps, there are sites devoted to them) or
> some kind of modern incarnation. For LOGO, Andrea diSessa' book
> (forgot English title, the Polish ed's title is "Geometria zolwia" or
> "Turtle Geometry") - extremely interesting, with stuff like drawing
> models of space-time and the like.

Ouch. I have left out Harold Abelson as the co-author. So here it is,
full size mention: "Turtle Geometry" by Hal Abelson and Andrea
diSessa. I have not meant to disrespect anybody's work.

And by demos I mean they can be either those cute audio-video
programming performances or stuff one does by oneself for
fun. Printing one's own Postscript file in which there is a program
making one of those fancy patterns of rotated squares qualifies
too. And there is instant gratification in it, well, kind of at
least... Something touchable to show off to friends - a sheet of paper
with b/w patterns (or fractals).

Fractals can be made in BASIC, too.

[...]
> 
> Ok, to sum it up:
> 
> 1. Curiosity is a key. He can learn about the world by programming
> computer the right way. (at least this is what I have heard)
> 
> 2. Language is a tool. Teach him this one thing ASAP, he can choose
> better tool.

3. As an afterthought, I wonder if you could make it somehow similar
to pair programming.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Tomasz Rola]

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 03:04:07PM -0700, Ali wrote:
> > I was going to suggest he introduce the lad to a wide range of
> > languages, especially non-procedural ones, and outliers such as Forth
> > and APL.  It's much easier to grasp the concepts (and joy) of things
> > like functional programming if you're exposed to them before
> > confirmation bias limits your acceptance of the world.
> 
> Yes, of course that makes assumptions on my knowledge level as well
> which does not quite extend to Forth or APL. 

Sorry for the late chime in, as I usually do. I am yet to read the
whole thread, so if my suggestions have been already suggested by
someone else, sorry for the noise too.

In case my wording makes you think otherwise, those are just humble
suggestions.

Now, learning "older languages" bears some stigma, right? Not in my
opinion, however. If you teach the young guy with intention to make
him wiser, do not use cheap copout. Or at least if you must, be
careful so he does not stick with it.

Given what most of people here could have used as their first
programming language, BASIC is not that bad. I know, I taught myself
BASIC first. However, it soon became obvious to me there were better
ways of writing software, so I progressed to Pascal and C. By that
time I have also heard about a handful of other PLs (Forth, Prolog,
LOGO, etc) so while I never was good enough to write using them
(except some Forth loaded from tape on a borrowed AtariXE), at least I
understood some problems were better solved in them rather than
banging a full time database in BASIC.

So, the main problem for you to solve is not really what book for this
particular dialect, but how to impress the kid enough to make him
curious. This, like every hard part, is left for the reader to do in
his spare time :-).

BTW, one word: demoscene, if you can. Either classical one (there are
new demoes written for old comps, there are sites devoted to them) or
some kind of modern incarnation. For LOGO, Andrea diSessa' book
(forgot English title, the Polish ed's title is "Geometria zolwia" or
"Turtle Geometry") - extremely interesting, with stuff like drawing
models of space-time and the like. If you'd like some hardcore demos,
a Postscript interpreter will give you stack based (Forth like)
proglang with gfx routines resembling turtle, a Postscript document is
just a program which one can run in the interpreter, then print
hardcopy on a laser. Under Unix one can write stuff into the
interpreter straight from code producing program (code = PS
mumbojumbo) by the pipes mechanism. One can, again, do some nice
looking stuff by pairing such "producer" with gnuplot (another
interpreter with more civilised syntax). One can have Forth
interpreter writen in /bin/sh language. One can have emacs - one of
the most portable Lisp environment, with tons of usable code and
modes, including interactive lisp mode (ielm - nice for quick
calculations and for defining more complicated things too) or org-mode
which can do very nice stuff (youtube it for more). Oh, and a builtin
psychiatrist (Esc-x doctor) and some games inside (look for 2048).

The possibilities are virtually endless. The wholly new Universe ot
them (ok, not really new, just overlooked and neglected). Just do not
suggest to him that BASIC and Java (or Javascript) are the way to go
(just in case you would like to do so).

I understand that the whole paragraph about demoscene is only half
interesting for 8 year old. Other ideas include Smalltalk interpreter
(Squeak - modern, portable, colorful, go find).

As of teaching him Python and/or Perl. I suggest Python. I am afraid
both are showing their age (so much about "older languages",
ahem). Python has cleaner design. In case of doubt, always choose
language which does not require strange out of place characters as
parts of variables names, or strange not obvious obligatory naming
conventions (e.g. global variables start from big letter, like in
Ruby, AFAIK). If he does not program anymore, at least he will know
some good looking language and maybe use it from time to time. If he
goes on and programs more and more often, he will find a way to
braindamage all by himself, so no need to give him bad memories right
now.

Ok, to sum it up:

1. Curiosity is a key. He can learn about the world by programming
computer the right way. (at least this is what I have heard)

2. Language is a tool. Teach him this one thing ASAP, he can choose
better tool.

As of "bits and nuts" stuff, I guess I would start with PDP8
emulator. Maybe PDP11, I am not sure. And treat it as a problem
solving game. Yes, go with assembly straight away, if you want to go
there. With paper tape to load. It may look like WTF but at least a
number of parts he will have to learn to handle is thus reduced to
manageable minimum. So I guess he should learn some programming first
(LOGO, Scheme, Smalltalk, even Prolog might be more interesting than
BASIC nowadays). Something not very hard to give him a 

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[drlegendre .]

>
>
> Make sure you tell him that "cloud" is just a fancy term for "somebody
> else's computer". :)
>

Or as I like to call it, "Socialized Computing". Except that unlike civic
socialism, you don't +necessarily+ run out of somebody else's compute
cycles.. ;-)

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 11:04 AM, geneb  wrote:

> On Fri, 27 May 2016, Ali wrote:
>
> I'd like him to understand why things work they way they do, that the cloud
>> is not a magical thing, and that at a certain level an
>> iPad=PC=5110=System/360.
>>
>> Make sure you tell him that "cloud" is just a fancy term for "somebody
> else's computer". :)
>
> g.
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Adam Sampson]

Cameron Kaiser  writes:

> The problem is few folks use it anymore

You might be surprised: NetLogo (Logo on top of the JVM, derived from
MIT's StarLogo) is very widely used for agent-based complex systems
simulation -- for example, I've worked on a project recently that's used
NetLogo as a modelling tool for studying granuloma formation. It's come
a long way from its FD 10 LT 90 beginnings!

https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/

-- 
Adam Sampson  

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Cameron Kaiser]

> > > Could that actually have been for the VIC? An admittedly simple (and
> > > restrictive) high-level language coded in CBM BASIC, with like 3K of
> > > RAM? =)
> >
> > I dunno about the VIC-20, but COMPUTE! had one for the Commodore 64 which
> > overlaid on BASIC. Clever idea I thought at the time.
> 
> Pilot for the C-64 does sound much more plausible, yes.. And likewise, I
> thought it was a very nice idea.
> 
> But hm.. other than formatting text, don't both the VIC-20 and C-64 share
> the same CBM BASIC version? No reason that PILOT for C-64 couldn't run on
> VIC, with enough memory expansion, I'd think?

With appropriate modification for any differences in memory layout, sure,
I'd imagine so.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Never send a human to do a machine's job. -- "The Matrix" --

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[drlegendre .]

@Cameron

Pilot for the C-64 does sound much more plausible, yes.. And likewise, I
thought it was a very nice idea.

But hm.. other than formatting text, don't both the VIC-20 and C-64 share
the same CBM BASIC version? No reason that PILOT for C-64 couldn't run on
VIC, with enough memory expansion, I'd think?

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Cameron Kaiser 
wrote:

> > Speaking of LOGO (and the Terrapin..), I assume PILOT is still around in
> > some form? Correct me here, but I believe that a +BASIC+ implementation
> of
> > PILOT was released for either the VIC-20 (??) or the C-64. I recall
> typing
> > it in, back in the early 1980s, just for kicks.
> >
> > Could that actually have been for the VIC? An admittedly simple (and
> > restrictive) high-level language coded in CBM BASIC, with like 3K of
> RAM? =)
>
> I dunno about the VIC-20, but COMPUTE! had one for the Commodore 64 which
> overlaid on BASIC. Clever idea I thought at the time.
>
> --
>  personal:
> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
> ckai...@floodgap.com
> -- Men talk of killing time, while time quietly kills them. -- Dion
> Bocicault -
>

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Cameron Kaiser]

> Speaking of LOGO (and the Terrapin..), I assume PILOT is still around in
> some form? Correct me here, but I believe that a +BASIC+ implementation of
> PILOT was released for either the VIC-20 (??) or the C-64. I recall typing
> it in, back in the early 1980s, just for kicks.
> 
> Could that actually have been for the VIC? An admittedly simple (and
> restrictive) high-level language coded in CBM BASIC, with like 3K of RAM? =)

I dunno about the VIC-20, but COMPUTE! had one for the Commodore 64 which
overlaid on BASIC. Clever idea I thought at the time.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Men talk of killing time, while time quietly kills them. -- Dion Bocicault -

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[drlegendre .]

Speaking of LOGO (and the Terrapin..), I assume PILOT is still around in
some form? Correct me here, but I believe that a +BASIC+ implementation of
PILOT was released for either the VIC-20 (??) or the C-64. I recall typing
it in, back in the early 1980s, just for kicks.

Could that actually have been for the VIC? An admittedly simple (and
restrictive) high-level language coded in CBM BASIC, with like 3K of RAM? =)



On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> On 05/27/2016 02:52 PM, Jay West wrote:
> >
> > At the risk of being flamed... I'll mention that if the kid is more
> > visually driven, you might try introducing him to an Arduino Uno or
> > similar. Something he can see the results of his code in lights and
> > dials.
>
> One of my fondest memories of my long-deceased father was when he took a
> plank of pine and built a 1-tube radio with me.  I think it was a 1G4G
> (triode).  We wound and shellacked the coils.  Earphones and A and B
> batteries.   It was wonderful--and I was hooked.
>
> I don't know if ARM or AVR BASICs are available, but you can purchase
> one-board MCUs (like the Maple mini) for next to nothing.  I think that
> getting that going with BASIC or any other language would be a great
> adventure for a young boy.
>
> After all, in a couple of years, he'll be teaching *you* how to use a PC.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Chuck Guzis]

On 05/27/2016 02:52 PM, Jay West wrote:
> 
> At the risk of being flamed... I'll mention that if the kid is more
> visually driven, you might try introducing him to an Arduino Uno or
> similar. Something he can see the results of his code in lights and
> dials.

One of my fondest memories of my long-deceased father was when he took a
plank of pine and built a 1-tube radio with me.  I think it was a 1G4G
(triode).  We wound and shellacked the coils.  Earphones and A and B
batteries.   It was wonderful--and I was hooked.

I don't know if ARM or AVR BASICs are available, but you can purchase
one-board MCUs (like the Maple mini) for next to nothing.  I think that
getting that going with BASIC or any other language would be a great
adventure for a young boy.

After all, in a couple of years, he'll be teaching *you* how to use a PC.

--Chuck

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[ben]

On 5/27/2016 4:12 PM, Swift Griggs wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2016, ben wrote:

But back then you could find the BARE hardware... with the latest chips
how do your get there? Ben.


hehe, Use old hardware? I dunno. Good point.

-Swift



Checks that his favorite supplier still sells 74LSXX's...
Now where have all the surplus places gone, so I can get the
switches and lights?
Ben.

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On May 27, 2016, at 4:28 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg  wrote:
> 
> And THAT is the best part of everything.

I.e. get derailed!  Lose complete track of what you set out to do.  Discover 
the unexpected, instead.

Break the kit!  Make LEDs burn out.  Then figure out why.  That's what learning 
is.

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On May 27, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Tapley, Mark  wrote:
> 
> but it has a lot of potential to get distracted from what I think you are 
> aiming for.

And THAT is the best part of everything.

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Tapley, Mark]

On May 27, 2016, at 5:15 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg  wrote:

> There are lots of Pi-based kits out there created for this very purpose. E.g.:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42=20410

Points to multiple links on the “Gertboard” accessory. That adds lots of 
input/output control and an Atmel controller to the Raspberry Pi. If you are 
going to get more (modern) hardware, I second this recommendation as well. If 
your 8-year-old wants to flash lights or control a robot or something, this may 
be pretty appealing.

The Raspberry Pi can also run (and has available, for free) an early version of 
Minecraft and a pretty recent version of Mathematica, so it has a lot of 
potential … but it has a lot of potential to get distracted from what I think 
you are aiming for. 

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On May 27, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Ali  wrote:
> 
> Yes, of course that makes assumptions on my knowledge level as well
> which does not quite extend to Forth or APL. 

So learn with him, already!

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On May 27, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Jay West  wrote:
> 
> At the risk of being flamed... I'll mention that if the kid is more visually 
> driven, you might try introducing him to an Arduino Uno or similar. Something 
> he can see the results of his code in lights and dials.

And ultimately, the whole purpose of the RPi was for this sort of education.  
There are lots of Pi-based kits out there created for this very purpose. E.g.:

  https://www.adafruit.com/products/955

  https://www.adafruit.com/products/1538

  https://www.adafruit.com/products/3058

  http://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-3-ultimate-kit.html

raspberrypi.org has tons of material aimed at that age group, both software and 
hardware hacking.

For Arduino:

  http://www.canakit.com/arduino-professional-kit.html

  
http://www.canakit.com/sparkfun-inventor-s-kit-for-arduino-with-retail-case.html

With Arduino, you need a separate host computer to write/download the code 
on/from.  But the Arduino kits are much more oriented towards physical 
interfaces, and I defy you to introduce me to an eight-year-old who doesn't 
want to build robots! :-)

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Swift Griggs]

On Fri, 27 May 2016, ben wrote:
> But back then you could find the BARE hardware... with the latest chips 
> how do your get there? Ben.

hehe, Use old hardware? I dunno. Good point. 

-Swift

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Ali]

> I learned a language called "Logo" first. It was taught by volunteer
> instructors at a local community center. I was 7, and the minimum age
> was supposed to be 10, but they let me in anyway. I enjoyed it. It came
> with a few media functions that made programming more fun since it was
> pretty easy to make music or games. Plus it was a little less
> sphghettish than BASIC. There are tons of Logo interpreters and books
> for kids. I get the feeling it's geared exactly toward teaching
> children. Everyone loved the turtle.

I believe you are right and I think Logo used to be taught in schools.
Unfortunately, I never learned Logo myself. I do have a copy of the IBM Logo
around here somewhere. I think thought Logo might be a bit too simple.
Unfortunately, time is something that is a precious commodity and as others
have pointed out there are far more useful languages for him to learn (in
fact his school has a coding class that teaches some more modern languages -
I don't think they even have a BASIC lab like we did back in the 80s/90s.)
So as cool as it would be for him to know Logo and other older languages I
want to expose him to simple programming and if he shows interest he can
move on to more useful stuff. 

> I learned ASM as a kid (I've never become that great at it, but I get
> by).
> As a child, I had so few people around who knew anything about
> computers, nobody was there to say "that's too hard". I had a book that
> came with a timex 1500 my mom got at a garage sale. I just picked it up
> and started doing examples.


Yeah, kids these days, as a general rule, are not that interested. There is
too much instant gratification for them to bother coding 10-20 pages worth
of code (like you used to find in magazines) to get a program to run. That
being said I would love for him to at least understand the building blocks
(binary vs. decimal, notations, etc.)

-Ali

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Ali]

> I can suggest "Instant BASIC: Freeze-dried Computer Programming: Jerald
> R.
> Brown" as a good kids entry-level text. Like numerous other 1980s era
> DIY computer books, it's probably available for free download from
> archive.org.

Thanks. I will check out archive.org and see what they have as well. Just 
Googling around did not bring anything up. However, with people suggesting 
titles I can look directly for those.

-Ali

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Ali]

> Most of the Usborne books from the 80s are available on Usborne's web
> site as PDFs -- "Simple BASIC" (for younger readers) or "Introduction
> to Computer Programming" (for slightly older readers) might fit the
> bill:
> 
> http://www.usborne.com/catalogue/feature-page/computer-and-coding-
> books.aspx


Thanks for that link. That one is getting bookmarked! I can even use some of
that info ;)

-Ali

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Ali]

> I was going to suggest he introduce the lad to a wide range of
> languages, especially non-procedural ones, and outliers such as Forth
> and APL.  It's much easier to grasp the concepts (and joy) of things
> like functional programming if you're exposed to them before
> confirmation bias limits your acceptance of the world.

Yes, of course that makes assumptions on my knowledge level as well
which does not quite extend to Forth or APL. 

At this point my concern is more getting him interested in being more than
just a consumer. He was astonished when I told him his iPad is a computer.
I'd like him to understand why things work they way they do, that the cloud
is not a magical thing, and that at a certain level an
iPad=PC=5110=System/360.

-Ali 

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Ali]

> Have you considered David Lien's book?
> One version of it came bundled with the TRS80.


Fred,

I am not familiar with his book. I will look around and see f I can find a
used copy on the usual sites.

-Ali

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Ali]

Mark,

Tell me about it. In the age of streaming and instant gratification nobody
wants to work to get anything anymore. I can't really blame him either: why
would you want to run "Hello World" when you can touch your iPad and be
playing Minecraft before the 5151 monitor has even warmed up to show you the
memory counter :)

> 1) Provide him with problems (lots of them!) in other areas that the
> PC-XT / basic combo can solve for him. Give him math homework with
> iterative solutions, ask him to calculate the value of pi or find the
> first 500 pythagorean triplets, or something like that. Then help him
> through solving those problems, and pose him more problems to solve
> himself. This will take a lot of time on your part.

I agree with giving him problems - but he is eight and has no idea what "pi"
is (outside of something you eat) much less how to calculate it. I am
thinking giving him simple problems and more importantly tools to entertain
himself. If he can write simple programs that he can show off to friends
that will keep him interested.  Of course I have a feeling I will see a lot
of:

10 print "What is your name?"
15 input N$
20 print N$ "made a stinky fart"
30 goto 20

> 
> 2) Demonstrate that *you* are interested in it - play nim or trek or
> hammrbi for a couple of hours, or write your own computer game on it,
> with him watching over your shoulder. Let him help

I agree that this is key! I want it to be an interactive experience and not
another electronic distraction ala PS3/iPad/etc. He is actually still
interested in some of the older games even though the graphics are not
fancy. So there is still hope that he can be kept from all the distracting
fancy graphics and focus on the meat of the problem. I think once he gets a
bit of success running things then he may want to pick up on it himself.
Right now the biggest hurdle is going from an iPad which is very intuitive
to DOS which his very intimidating so he is put off. 

>   My 2 cents worth, and please note I was not successful at
> following the above advice myself. My kids got "exposed" to a bunch of
> this, never really clicked on it, and only now (away in college) are
> beginning to get interested. They are sailing through their CS courses
> because they keep tripping across nuggets that they immediately "get"
> (having had me bore them to tears about it in past ages) while their
> classmates struggle - but that's not the goal you were looking for.


Well you must have done something right for the information to stick and
help them now! Kudos to you for that!

-Ali

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Ali]

> At the risk of being flamed... I'll mention that if the kid is more
> visually driven, you might try introducing him to an Arduino Uno or
> similar. Something he can see the results of his code in lights and
> dials.
> 

Jay,

Baby steps - first I got to show him what a chip looks like then we can talk 
about stringing HW together! ;)

-Ali

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Jay West]

At the risk of being flamed... I'll mention that if the kid is more visually 
driven, you might try introducing him to an Arduino Uno or similar. Something 
he can see the results of his code in lights and dials.

J

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[ben]

On 5/27/2016 2:15 PM, Swift Griggs wrote:



I learned ASM as a kid (I've never become that great at it, but I get by).
As a child, I had so few people around who knew anything about computers,
nobody was there to say "that's too hard". I had a book that came with a
timex 1500 my mom got at a garage sale. I just picked it up and started
doing examples.

-Swift


But back then you could find the BARE hardware... with
the latest chips how do your get there?
Ben.

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On May 27, 2016, at 1:57 PM, Dave Wade  wrote:
> 
> Those who write APL programs ae sadists, and those who like fixing them when
> they go wrong are masochists
> ... Though I believe Iverson wanted to call it "The Programming
> Language"

I was going to suggest he introduce the lad to a wide range of languages, 
especially non-procedural ones, and outliers such as Forth and APL.  It's much 
easier to grasp the concepts (and joy) of things like functional programming if 
you're exposed to them before confirmation bias limits your acceptance of the 
world.

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Fred Cisin]

and APL is fun!

On Fri, 27 May 2016, Dave Wade wrote:

Those who write APL programs ae sadists,


IFF they make anybody else look at them.

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Cisin
> Sent: 27 May 2016 21:44
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

> Subject: RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight
> year old level
> 
> > Drlegendre wrote...
> > -
> > And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move
> > him to Perl or Python ASAP.
> > -
> 
> On Fri, 27 May 2016, Jay West wrote:
> > I suggest instead...
> > "BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to
> assembly language ASAP."
> > *grin*
> > I'm only 10% kidding lol
> 
> I agree with either.
> 
> and APL is fun!

Those who write APL programs ae sadists, and those who like fixing them when
they go wrong are masochists
... Though I believe Iverson wanted to call it "The Programming
Language"
...

> 
> 
> Have you considered David Lien's book?
> One version of it came bundled with the TRS80.
> 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred   ci...@xenosoft.com

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Fred Cisin]

Drlegendre wrote...
-
And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid 
grasps the concepts, move him to Perl or Python ASAP.

-


On Fri, 27 May 2016, Jay West wrote:

I suggest instead...
"BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to assembly 
language ASAP."
*grin*
I'm only 10% kidding lol


I agree with either.

and APL is fun!


Have you considered David Lien's book?
One version of it came bundled with the TRS80.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Swift Griggs]

On Fri, 27 May 2016, Jay West wrote:
> I suggest instead... "BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the 
> concepts, move him to assembly language ASAP."

I learned a language called "Logo" first. It was taught by volunteer 
instructors at a local community center. I was 7, and the minimum age was 
supposed to be 10, but they let me in anyway. I enjoyed it. It came with a 
few media functions that made programming more fun since it was pretty 
easy to make music or games. Plus it was a little less sphghettish than 
BASIC. There are tons of Logo interpreters and books for kids. I get the 
feeling it's geared exactly toward teaching children. Everyone loved the 
turtle.

> I'm only 10% kidding lol

I learned ASM as a kid (I've never become that great at it, but I get by). 
As a child, I had so few people around who knew anything about computers, 
nobody was there to say "that's too hard". I had a book that came with a 
timex 1500 my mom got at a garage sale. I just picked it up and started 
doing examples.

-Swift

Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[tony duell]

> Of course, rather than expose him to 8088 assembler, I’d recommend
>  you run right out and grab a used TRS-80 Color Computer - cheap,
>  and 6809 assembly is very very nice - no segment registers.

> The downside of *that* is that if he ever decides to use the “Sign Extend”
>  instruction, you’ll have to have a talk with him about the birds, the bees,
> and where little subroutines come from :-).

I suspect you'll need some 'support' when you come to unconditional
relative branches too :-)

-tony

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Tapley, Mark]

On May 27, 2016, at 2:37 PM, Jay West  wrote:

> Drlegendre wrote...
> -
> And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to 
> Perl or Python ASAP. 
> -
> 
> I suggest instead... 
> "BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to 
> assembly language ASAP."
> 
> *grin*
> I'm only 10% kidding lol

Ew - apologies, been top-posting all day to my other email correspondents, 
please stand on your head while you read my last post ;-).

Jay has a great point. With PC-XT class hardware, he will want to do things 
faster. If some of your tasks for him are suitable for short assebly language 
programs, and he can make them happen 100 times faster than in BASIC, that 
might grab his attention. 

Of course, rather than expose him to 8088 assembler, I’d recommend you run 
right out and grab a used TRS-80 Color Computer - cheap, and 6809 assembly is 
very very nice - no segment registers.

The downside of *that* is that if he ever decides to use the “Sign Extend” 
instruction, you’ll have to have a talk with him about the birds, the bees, and 
where little subroutines come from :-).

- Mark

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Cameron Kaiser]

> And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to
> Perl or Python ASAP. Basic -> Perl is very easy, heck you can even use line
> numbers if you want..

I don't claim to be Larry Wall himself (having had lunch with him a number of
times, he has too many dietary restrictions), but this is news to me. How do
you figure?

% cat > perl.test
print "hello\n";
% perl perl.test
hello
% cat > perl.test
10 print"hello\n";
% perl perl.test
syntax error at perl.test line 1, near "10 print"
Execution of perl.test aborted due to compilation errors.
% cat > perl.test
10: print"hello\n";
% perl perl.test
syntax error at perl.test line 1, near "10:"
Execution of perl.test aborted due to compilation errors.
% perl -v

This is perl, v5.8.8 built for aix-thread-multi
[...]

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Obscenity is the last refuge of a weak mind. -- Bonnie Fortney -

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Tapley, Mark]

Ali,
generating interest in the topic is probably the single most critical 
step you will take. That is where I’ve had the most trouble, and from your 
first paragraph, sounds like that is your first stumbling block, too. Here are 
things that might help:

1) Provide him with problems (lots of them!) in other areas that the PC-XT / 
basic combo can solve for him. Give him math homework with iterative solutions, 
ask him to calculate the value of pi or find the first 500 pythagorean 
triplets, or something like that. Then help him through solving those problems, 
and pose him more problems to solve himself. This will take a lot of time on 
your part.

2) Demonstrate that *you* are interested in it - play nim or trek or hammrbi 
for a couple of hours, or write your own computer game on it, with him watching 
over your shoulder. Let him help, 

Make sure that the interaction between you and him is the primary goal, 
and BASIC and the computer are secondary, while you do this. He is hard-wired 
to resist the idea of you foisting him off on a machine and then walking away 
while he “learns” - in relational terms, that will feel like a punishment to 
him. On the other hand, if the computer and the lessons form environments that 
establish better connection between you and him, he will like it. 


My 2 cents worth, and please note I was not successful at following the 
above advice myself. My kids got “exposed” to a bunch of this, never really 
clicked on it, and only now (away in college) are beginning to get interested. 
They are sailing through their CS courses because they keep tripping across 
nuggets that they immediately “get” (having had me bore them to tears about it 
in past ages) while their classmates struggle - but that’s not the goal you 
were looking for.

Good luck!
-  Mark


On May 27, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Ali  wrote:

> So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he
> is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am determined
> that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history (i.e.
> how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by learning
> BASIC this summer.
> 
> Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a larger
> number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a
> way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could recommend
> a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU,
> memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe
> another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader?
> It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF
> that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to buying a
> physical new (or used book) either. 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -Ali
> 
> 
> 

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Jay West]

Drlegendre wrote...
-
And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to 
Perl or Python ASAP. 
-

I suggest instead... 
"BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to 
assembly language ASAP."

*grin*
I'm only 10% kidding lol

J

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Adam Sampson]

"Ali"  writes:

> I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good book that gets the
> basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU, memory, storage,
> etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe another one
> that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader?

Most of the Usborne books from the 80s are available on Usborne's web
site as PDFs -- "Simple BASIC" (for younger readers) or "Introduction to
Computer Programming" (for slightly older readers) might fit the bill:

http://www.usborne.com/catalogue/feature-page/computer-and-coding-books.aspx

(My copy of "Write Your Own Adventure Programs" lives on my bookshelf at
work next to Knuth and K)

-- 
Adam Sampson  

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[drlegendre .]

I can suggest "Instant BASIC: Freeze-dried Computer Programming: Jerald R.
Brown" as a good kids entry-level text. Like numerous other 1980s era DIY
computer books, it's probably available for free download from archive.org.
I also have a spare copy.

And BASIC is great, but as soon as the kid grasps the concepts, move him to
Perl or Python ASAP. Basic -> Perl is very easy, heck you can even use line
numbers if you want.. and it's a far more useful language in the modern
environment.

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 12:49 PM, william degnan 
wrote:

> Trombetta wrote a book
> "BASIC for students using the IBM PC"
>
>
> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Ali  wrote:
>
> > So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say
> he
> > is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am
> determined
> > that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history
> (i.e.
> > how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by
> learning
> > BASIC this summer.
> >
> > Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a
> > larger
> > number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a
> > way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could
> recommend
> > a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU,
> > memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and
> maybe
> > another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young
> reader?
> > It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF
> > that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to
> buying a
> > physical new (or used book) either.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > -Ali
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> @ BillDeg:
> Web: vintagecomputer.net
> Twitter: @billdeg 
> Youtube: @billdeg 
> Unauthorized Bio 
>

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Camiel Vanderhoeven]

I learned BASIC around that age. I used the Usborne book, which has been
made available as a PDF file by the publisher:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxv0SsvibDMTUXdYTnRaTy1LLVE/view
Op 27 mei 2016 8:12 p.m. schreef "Electronics Plus" :

http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Handbook-Encyclopedia-Computer-Language/dp/09327
60333/ for the basics of BASIC
http://www.amazon.com/BASIC-Computer-Games-Microcomputer-David/dp/0894800523
/ for games he can program in BASIC
from there go to
http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Adventure-Games-Your-Computer/dp/0345318838/
and http://www.amazon.com/More-Basic-Computer-Games-David/dp/0894801376/

One designed for elementary school kids that does not use BASIC is
https://www.amazon.com/Coding-Kids-Dummies-Camille-McCue-ebook/dp/B00MFPZASK
which works on a Mac or PC.


There is nothing like making your first program work to make a youngster
feel like a god!

Cindy

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ali
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 12:29 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year
old level

So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he
is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am determined
that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history (i.e.
how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by learning
BASIC this summer.

Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a larger
number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a
way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could recommend
a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU,
memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe
another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader?
It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF
that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to buying a
physical new (or used book) either.

Thanks.

-Ali

RE: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Electronics Plus]

http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Handbook-Encyclopedia-Computer-Language/dp/09327
60333/ for the basics of BASIC
http://www.amazon.com/BASIC-Computer-Games-Microcomputer-David/dp/0894800523
/ for games he can program in BASIC
from there go to
http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Adventure-Games-Your-Computer/dp/0345318838/
and http://www.amazon.com/More-Basic-Computer-Games-David/dp/0894801376/

One designed for elementary school kids that does not use BASIC is
https://www.amazon.com/Coding-Kids-Dummies-Camille-McCue-ebook/dp/B00MFPZASK
which works on a Mac or PC.


There is nothing like making your first program work to make a youngster
feel like a god!

Cindy

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ali
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 12:29 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year
old level

So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he
is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am determined
that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history (i.e.
how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by learning
BASIC this summer.

Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a larger
number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a
way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could recommend
a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU,
memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe
another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader?
It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF
that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to buying a
physical new (or used book) either. 

Thanks.

-Ali

Re: Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[william degnan]

Trombetta wrote a book
"BASIC for students using the IBM PC"


On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Ali  wrote:

> So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he
> is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am determined
> that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history (i.e.
> how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by learning
> BASIC this summer.
>
> Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a
> larger
> number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a
> way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could recommend
> a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU,
> memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe
> another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader?
> It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF
> that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to buying a
> physical new (or used book) either.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Ali
>
>
>
>


-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg 
Youtube: @billdeg 
Unauthorized Bio 

Need Rec: Book to teach about computers and BASIC at an eight year old level

[Ali]

So somewhat OT - I've setup an 8 year old w/ an IBM PC XT w/ CGA. To say he
is less than impressed is understating things :). However, I am determined
that he will learn basic computer terminology, architecture, history (i.e.
how we got here) and at least get his feet wet with programming by learning
BASIC this summer.

Apparently teaching is not my strong suite - while I can talk about a larger
number of the above topics, especially at his level, organizing them in a
way to make sense is the problem. I was wondering if anyone could recommend
a good book that gets the basic stuff out of the way (what is the CPU,
memory, storage, etc. what are different the parts called, etc.) and maybe
another one that teaches an intro to BASIC written for a very young reader?
It would be nice if the book is in the PD or at least available as a PDF
that way he can read it on his Kindle. However, I am not averse to buying a
physical new (or used book) either. 

Thanks.

-Ali