Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/06/2017 07:30 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:

> You are welcome glad it is going again it is the very best programmers
> calculator ever made.  Mine is just a little newer than yours and still
> going strong.  I bought mine new when taking a 370 assembler course.

I bought mine when my TI Programmer died.  I did not like that
calculator--small LED digits that did a poor job of hex displaying.  The
thing ate batteries for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

For a time, I was involved in systems with long word length (60
(octal)/64 bit (hex)); when we started writing for the ETA 10, that
little calculator earned its keep--48-bit *bit* addresses, with indices
in bit, byte, halfword (32 bit) and 64-bit words.  Calculating addresses
by hand was "interesting" and the HP16C made it so much easier.

The little thing has stayed on my desk ever since.  I can't say that
I've used the programmable feature more than a couple of times.  I doubt
that many bit-banging programmers have, either.

It's a shame that HP discontinued it.


--Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2017-12-06 11:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 12/06/2017 07:00 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:

Well that usually means that there is contamination at the connection
point or the sandwich is not clamped tightly enough.  I have cleaned
them off with alcohol and a lint free cloth.  If I remember correctly
there is not space for you to get them out of alignment.

I went back over the LCD elastomer and the PCB area with isopropanol and
a soft cloth.  That damned glue can get everywhere with bits of the ESD
"paper"...

Bingo.

My faithful HP16C is now functional again!   Maybe we can put in a few
more years together...

Thank you all, but especially Paul.

--Chuck
You are welcome glad it is going again it is the very best programmers 
calculator ever made.  Mine is just a little newer than yours and still 
going strong.  I bought mine new when taking a 370 assembler course.


Paul.

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/06/2017 07:00 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
> Well that usually means that there is contamination at the connection
> point or the sandwich is not clamped tightly enough.  I have cleaned
> them off with alcohol and a lint free cloth.  If I remember correctly
> there is not space for you to get them out of alignment.

I went back over the LCD elastomer and the PCB area with isopropanol and
a soft cloth.  That damned glue can get everywhere with bits of the ESD
"paper"...

Bingo.

My faithful HP16C is now functional again!   Maybe we can put in a few
more years together...

Thank you all, but especially Paul.

--Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

Well that usually means that there is contamination at the connection 
point or the sandwich is not clamped tightly enough.  I have cleaned 
them off with alcohol and a lint free cloth.  If I remember correctly 
there is not space for you to get them out of alignment.


Paul.


On 2017-12-06 10:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Well, I replaced the LCD and was greeted with missing segments.  Any
suggestions before I throw in the towel?

That glue from hell necessitated picking off the black plastic shielding
bit by bit with forceps ans a magnifying glass.  Really awful stuff.

--Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Well, I replaced the LCD and was greeted with missing segments.  Any
suggestions before I throw in the towel?

That glue from hell necessitated picking off the black plastic shielding
bit by bit with forceps ans a magnifying glass.  Really awful stuff.

--Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/06/2017 02:51 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
> Ok I am guessing you have figured out how to take the back off? (screws
> under the rubber feet) with the calculator upside down and the display
> away from you there is a connector at the top right that connects the
> keyboard to the electronics on the back of the display carefully  lift
> that  flexible cable over the posts.  With the back off the display
> module is big held in by four foam blocks that fit over the plastic
> posts, gently lift the display module up and they will come with it. 
> The part you are going to change is just the glass of the display it is
> held in place by a metal frame that has tabs folded over.  You can try
> to save the thin plastic anti static wrap but it is held on with the
> glue from hell so you will probably end up cutting some of it away.  The
> glass part of the display is connected to the circuit board under it by
> elastomer block, keep them clean any debris on them will probably result
> in a segment that does not work.  Swap the refold the tabs on the metal
> frame and reassemble.  You will note that on inside of the back of the
> display there are hollow posts that fit over post at the keyboard
> connector and display to test it before putting it all back together,
> put batteries in, and hold the keyboard connector in place with your
> finger.

Okay, as a test, I swapped the display board from the 15C to my 16C, so
I have a working 15C with mislabeled keys. :)

The black plastic over the display/brains board is indeed held on with
the glue from hell.  I've slit it with an Xacto knife and gently scraped
as much of it off as I could with a small ABS scraper.   At least now, I
can see the LCD frame tabs.  I'm going to take a small flat-bladed
screwdriver and bend them away to release the LCD.

Stay tuned...

--Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

Ok I am guessing you have figured out how to take the back off? (screws 
under the rubber feet) with the calculator upside down and the display 
away from you there is a connector at the top right that connects the 
keyboard to the electronics on the back of the display carefully  lift 
that  flexible cable over the posts.  With the back off the display 
module is big held in by four foam blocks that fit over the plastic 
posts, gently lift the display module up and they will come with it.  
The part you are going to change is just the glass of the display it is 
held in place by a metal frame that has tabs folded over.  You can try 
to save the thin plastic anti static wrap but it is held on with the 
glue from hell so you will probably end up cutting some of it away.  The 
glass part of the display is connected to the circuit board under it by 
elastomer block, keep them clean any debris on them will probably result 
in a segment that does not work.  Swap the refold the tabs on the metal 
frame and reassemble.  You will note that on inside of the back of the 
display there are hollow posts that fit over post at the keyboard 
connector and display to test it before putting it all back together, 
put batteries in, and hold the keyboard connector in place with your finger.


Paul.



On 2017-12-06 6:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 12/06/2017 01:22 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:

I just looked back at the archives of the hpmuseum.org site and the
donor 12C that the display came from for the 16C I repaired for another
MoHPC member had a serial number that began with 2224A and was the
version with the innards wrapped in black plastic like your 16C.

My lovely wife remembered that she had a 12C when she was taking some
accounting classes (part of an unused Master of Public Administration
degree she has).  We found it--still in its old box, serial number
2316A...   We're in business.

Now, how does one remove the display from one board and transplant it
the other?  Is it as simple as bending back the LCD frame tabs?

Thanks,
Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/06/2017 01:22 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
> I just looked back at the archives of the hpmuseum.org site and the
> donor 12C that the display came from for the 16C I repaired for another
> MoHPC member had a serial number that began with 2224A and was the
> version with the innards wrapped in black plastic like your 16C.

My lovely wife remembered that she had a 12C when she was taking some
accounting classes (part of an unused Master of Public Administration
degree she has).  We found it--still in its old box, serial number
2316A...   We're in business.

Now, how does one remove the display from one board and transplant it
the other?  Is it as simple as bending back the LCD frame tabs?

Thanks,
Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

I just looked back at the archives of the hpmuseum.org site and the 
donor 12C that the display came from for the 16C I repaired for another 
MoHPC member had a serial number that began with 2224A and was the 
version with the innards wrapped in black plastic like your 16C.


Paul.


On 2017-12-06 4:53 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 12/06/2017 10:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote:


'Later' here might mean the modern versions of the 12C, which is very
different. I thought both types of construction of the original Voyagers
used the same display but I must admit I have never swapped them over.

Feh, the "old" HP12C that I got for $15 is only 30 years old.  My HP16C
is 35 years old.   The innards between the two are completely different.

My HP16C comes wrapped in antistatic plastic and has what looks to be a
hand-wired axial resistor and a "blob" tantalum cap hand-soldered in
near the battery holder.   The display is on a separate board connected
via a flex cable labeled "HP Sheldahl USA 1130-0504.

The 12C is all on a single PCB, with no ESD wrap.  Miles apart.
---
So it boils down to finding a REALLY old 12C and hoping that it's
compatible with my 16C in terms of parts or putting everything back
together and buying the Swiss clone, which will, after all is said and
done, set me back $200.

I don't fancy that there's much hope in finding a 35 year old 12C for
sale at a reasonable price--and the display will still be very old.

Sigh,
Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/06/2017 10:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote:

> 'Later' here might mean the modern versions of the 12C, which is very
> different. I thought both types of construction of the original Voyagers
> used the same display but I must admit I have never swapped them over.

Feh, the "old" HP12C that I got for $15 is only 30 years old.  My HP16C
is 35 years old.   The innards between the two are completely different.

My HP16C comes wrapped in antistatic plastic and has what looks to be a
hand-wired axial resistor and a "blob" tantalum cap hand-soldered in
near the battery holder.   The display is on a separate board connected
via a flex cable labeled "HP Sheldahl USA 1130-0504.

The 12C is all on a single PCB, with no ESD wrap.  Miles apart.
---
So it boils down to finding a REALLY old 12C and hoping that it's
compatible with my 16C in terms of parts or putting everything back
together and buying the Swiss clone, which will, after all is said and
done, set me back $200.

I don't fancy that there's much hope in finding a 35 year old 12C for
sale at a reasonable price--and the display will still be very old.

Sigh,
Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 12/03/2017 10:00 AM, Tony Duell wrote:
>
>> That sounds like the original version with the separate logic module.
>>
>> I think the display is the same between the 2 versions. I am also
>> pretty sure the same display is used in all the old Voyagers (there
>> are annunciators on it that are not used on some models, but they
>> are still there on the display of that model). AFAIK the difference
>> between the models is the firmware.
>
> Please forgive the delayed response--for some reason, the CCTalk server
> belched up a bunch of messages dating from 30 November onward today.
>
> I've read a bit on the HPMuseum forums that indicate that early displays
> aren't interchangeable with later ones--the later ones apparently use a
> finer-pitch connector.

'Later' here might mean the modern versions of the 12C, which is very
different. I thought both types of construction of the original Voyagers
used the same display but I must admit I have never swapped them over.

-tony

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/03/2017 10:00 AM, Tony Duell wrote:

> That sounds like the original version with the separate logic module.
> 
> I think the display is the same between the 2 versions. I am also
> pretty sure the same display is used in all the old Voyagers (there
> are annunciators on it that are not used on some models, but they
> are still there on the display of that model). AFAIK the difference
> between the models is the firmware.

Please forgive the delayed response--for some reason, the CCTalk server
belched up a bunch of messages dating from 30 November onward today.

I've read a bit on the HPMuseum forums that indicate that early displays
aren't interchangeable with later ones--the later ones apparently use a
finer-pitch connector.

My own HP 16C has a serial number beginning with 2228A..., which I
believe puts its date of manufacture in 1982, so my fingers are crossed
to see if the "old" HP12C that I picked up on eBay is even close in
terms of display connections.

--Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:39 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 12/02/2017 05:18 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
>> A good source of replacement displays is from 12C of the same vintage,
>> there was lots of them produced and they can often be obtained for a
>> reasonable cost.  If you you look in the archives of the forums on
>> hpmuseum.org you will find advise on what to look for for a suitable
>> replacement.  I have done the surgery myself and it is not too difficult.
>
> That's good to know.   Yes, the ground seems to be littered with used
> 12Cs; I wasn't sure if the LCD was compatible.   I"ll do some reading.

I am pretty sure the orginal fault is the liquid crystal material leaking
out of the display. At rest the liquid crystal twists the plane of polarisation
of light through 90 degrees, when the electric field it applied then the
molecules line up and it doesn't twist the plane of polarisation. The
display has a polarising filter on each side, arranged at 90 degrees to
each other. So at rest light passes with no problems, when the
field is applied you are effectively looking through crossed polarisers
so it's dark.

Of course if the liquid crystal leaks out you are looking through
crossed polarisers with nothing between them so you get a black
display.

The other Voyagers (10C, 11C, 12C, 15C) of the same vintage
should use the same display. But more recent 12Cs do not as
far as I know. You have to get one that uses 3 button cells, not
the version using a lithium cell.

There are at least 2 versions of the construction of the old
Voyagers. Initially the electronics was assembled on a
flexible PCB fitted to a plastic frame. The LCD was clamped
onto that. There was a tail on the flexible PCB that connected
to the keyboard (normal PCB heat-staked to the top case)
with a zebrastrip connector. Later on, it was all on one
PCB heat-staked to the top case. I've seen 16Cs of both
constructions and as far as I know the display are the
same. But if yours is the later version you will have to
cut the heat stakes to get the PCB out to replace the
display and re-attach it afterwards.


-tony

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/02/2017 05:18 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
> A good source of replacement displays is from 12C of the same vintage,
> there was lots of them produced and they can often be obtained for a
> reasonable cost.  If you you look in the archives of the forums on
> hpmuseum.org you will find advise on what to look for for a suitable
> replacement.  I have done the surgery myself and it is not too difficult.

That's good to know.   Yes, the ground seems to be littered with used
12Cs; I wasn't sure if the LCD was compatible.   I"ll do some reading.

Certainly less expensive that getting the 16C clone from the guy in
Switzerland.


Thanks,
Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

A good source of replacement displays is from 12C of the same vintage, 
there was lots of them produced and they can often be obtained for a 
reasonable cost.  If you you look in the archives of the forums on 
hpmuseum.org you will find advise on what to look for for a suitable 
replacement.  I have done the surgery myself and it is not too difficult.


Paul.


On 2017-12-02 9:11 PM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote:

Chuck, probably the LCD is gone south. But would the thisplay be the same
of contemporary HP calculators (11/12)?

2017-12-02 22:31 GMT-02:00 Chuck Guzis via cctalk :


Today, I picked up my trusty HP16C that's been with me through thick and
thin and noticed a black splotch extending across about half the
display.  This is with the power off.

Is the LCD display failing?  Can it be repaired?   This thing has been a
a sidekick of my for a very long time and I'd hate to see it go.

Anyone know?

--Chuck

Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Alexandre Souza via cctalk]

Chuck, probably the LCD is gone south. But would the thisplay be the same
of contemporary HP calculators (11/12)?

2017-12-02 22:31 GMT-02:00 Chuck Guzis via cctalk :

> Today, I picked up my trusty HP16C that's been with me through thick and
> thin and noticed a black splotch extending across about half the
> display.  This is with the power off.
>
> Is the LCD display failing?  Can it be repaired?   This thing has been a
> a sidekick of my for a very long time and I'd hate to see it go.
>
> Anyone know?
>
> --Chuck
>

OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing!

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Today, I picked up my trusty HP16C that's been with me through thick and
thin and noticed a black splotch extending across about half the
display.  This is with the power off.

Is the LCD display failing?  Can it be repaired?   This thing has been a
a sidekick of my for a very long time and I'd hate to see it go.

Anyone know?

--Chuck