Subject: Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts:

[Murray McCullough via cctalk]

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 15:22:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cameron Kaiser <spec...@floodgap.com>
To: bill.gunshan...@hotmail.com, cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts
Message-ID: <20170915.v8fmmw5r7405...@floodgap.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


>> I used to read his column for its humor value but I always thought
>> of him as an idiot as far as comuters were concerned.


Apparently this opinion is fairly widely shared:

"As far as comuters (should it not be computers) were concerned." I
guess one is entitled to their opinion. As an historian of modern
technology and a subset of it, social media, I can only conclude that
the Net allows one to say what they want and have many 'thousands'
concur/agree.

Happy computing all!

Murray  :)

RE: BitNET (Was: RE: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts)

[Peter Coghlan via cctalk]

Hi Bill and Dave,

I have fond memories of BITNET in a university environment in the early 1990s
on VM/CMS and on VAX/VMS.

Some years ago, I went searching on the web for information about it and found
almost nothing.  It was as if it had been erased from history.  I did find a
single website which contained lots of BITNET user nostalgia but it has since
disappeared.  I managed to pull some parts of it from archive.org with a view
to putting it back together eventually.  I have had no success contacting the
owner.

After a lot of digging, I managed to locate someone who once worked in EARN
(the European arm of BITNET) who had a long forgotten backup of the BITNET/EARN
network definition files which he was willing to share with me.  I haven't
quite figured out how to share these with the rest of the world yet as they
are full of email addresses, some of which may still be valid.

While the original BITNET was NJE over bisync lines, the second generation of
BITNET also allowed the use of NJE over TCP/IP while maintaining compatibility
with NJE over bisync.

The Hercules bi-sync over IP implementation is not suitable for sending over
the internet as it produces vast amounts of traffic when idle and cannot cope
with latency of more than a couple of seconds nor interruptions of any kind.
Neither is it compatible with the NJE over TCP/IP used for BITNET-II.  I have
written a patch for Hercules which allows it to present what looks like a
bisync line on the inside and to speak BITNET-II compatible NJE over TCP/IP on
the outside.  I have also patched the RSCS that comes with the publically
available VM/370 to be able to speak NJE.  Like most of my projects, these are
very close to completion but hung up on some minor snag near the end.  At the
moment, this setup is able to communicate over the internet with RSCS on
VM/ESA running on a P/390 machine and should be capable of talking to anything
else that could have connected to BITNET-II.

Software such as MAILER and MAILBOOK still exists in much updated form but will
not run on VM/370.  I have asked the current maintainers to see if they can dig
up very old versions which would be easier to press into service on VM/370 but
they have not been successful.  The chances of someone finding an old backup
are probably diminishing rapidly.

The software most commonly used for BITNET on VAX and Alpha VMS is called JNET.
A few years ago, I approached the then owner to see if they would license it
for hobbyist use in a manner similar to the VMS hobbyist license. 
Unfortunately they would not.

There is some relatively freely available software for NJE on VMS and unix
called HUJI-NJE.  It is not as capable or polished as JNET but it is workable.
I have made some tweaks to this to make it work on modern versions of VAX and
Alpha VMS but see note above on completion of projects.  HUJI-NJE also inspired
a unix-only enhanced version possibly called FUNET-NJE which was used to great
effect on EARN/BITNET in Finland.  As far as I know, this version is freely
available.  As far as I recall, there is some confusion over names and versions.

Back in the day, I remember BITNET for unix software called UREP.  I have no
direct experience of it but I recall that interaction with it from other BITNET
nodes was pretty awful.  I have not managed to find any trace of it in recent
years - I think it was probably not free software.

It is not necessary for SIMH to support synchronous connections in order to
allow NJE over TCP/IP in and out.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Hi Bill,

 That's a complex topic. Basically, a BitNet connection was an IBM RSCS
link..., 
 At the low levels  that's BiSync. Real BiSync hardware is rare(ish) but the
Hercules Mainframe emulator does support bi-sync over IP so physically its
possible.

 At the networking level, whilst the original RSCS code is available its an
early version and its missing key features needed for Bitnet.
 Also the freely available versions of VM/CMS on which RSCS runs don't have
the E-Mail software used to send messages.
 
Later versions that would work are still licenced materials of IBM. I think
the same goes for the VAX software. 
As it could possibly still be used commercially to connect to current
mainframes it does not appear to be freely available.

I am also not sure how you would connect it to a mainframe, as I don't
believe SIMH supports synchronous connections.

Dave 
 
 

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill
> Gunshannon via cctalk
> Sent: 16 September 2017 01:16
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: BitNET (Was: RE: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While all this talk of the ARPANet is cool and brings back some fine
> memories, what about BitNET?  Anyone here remember it?
> Any chance someone has a copy of the source for

RE: BitNET (Was: RE: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts)

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

Hi Bill,

 That's a complex topic. Basically, a BitNet connection was an IBM RSCS
link..., 
 At the low levels  that's BiSync. Real BiSync hardware is rare(ish) but the
Hercules Mainframe emulator does support bi-sync over IP so physically its
possible.

 At the networking level, whilst the original RSCS code is available its an
early version and its missing key features needed for Bitnet.
 Also the freely available versions of VM/CMS on which RSCS runs don't have
the E-Mail software used to send messages.
 
Later versions that would work are still licenced materials of IBM. I think
the same goes for the VAX software. 
As it could possibly still be used commercially to connect to current
mainframes it does not appear to be freely available.

I am also not sure how you would connect it to a mainframe, as I don't
believe SIMH supports synchronous connections.

Dave 
 
 

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill
> Gunshannon via cctalk
> Sent: 16 September 2017 01:16
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: BitNET (Was: RE: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While all this talk of the ARPANet is cool and brings back some fine
> memories, what about BitNET?  Anyone here remember it?
> Any chance someone has a copy of the source for a BitNET Node?
> I have seen UUCPNet and DECNet revived.  It might be fun to bring BitNET
> back up for sentimental reasons.
> 
> bill

BitNET (Was: RE: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts)

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

While all this talk of the ARPANet is cool and brings back some
fine memories, what about BitNET?  Anyone here remember it?
Any chance someone has a copy of the source for a BitNET Node?
I have seen UUCPNet and DECNet revived.  It might be fun to bring
BitNET back up for sentimental reasons.

bill

RE: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 3:40 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

On 9/15/17 12:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> I recall that he was a bit of a pompous a** on his Usenet postings, but
> you have to realize that the tenor of online conversation was very

My one interaction with him was at a Hackers. insert DRUNKEN between
pompous and a**



I never had an exchange with him on USENET but then I would have
been in the tech groups and he would never have been there.  Of
course, I probably wold have kill filed him real quick anyway. :-)

bill

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 9/15/2017 2:25 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:

  (~mid-80s, well before opening of the 'net to public access), some 
guy-off-the-street came into the uni. comp sci department wanting a connection 
to the arpa/internet
I had to finesse my way onto the internet pre Software Tool and Die.  I 
was one of their earlier customers, and still use j...@world.std.com as 
my main "reach me forever" email.  It's been around as long as I have on 
the internet.


I had access thru people letting me play before that and before that 
though it was not on the internet was happy to play with Multics @ USL 
for probably 10 years, up to shutdown of the system.  Also had dialup to 
TSO at the University of Missouri Columbia, courtesy of the materials 
research department.


Neither site was Arpanet, and I didn't have to keep quiet about it for 
any reason other than people shared accounts with me, and you didn't 
share that information.


I have not had time to read about Pournelle, will be interested.

While people are tuned into Arpanet, I noticed that UCSD had some 
Microdata 800s on Arpanet.  I'd be interested if anyone here was on, or 
knows anyone who would recall it.  I can produce diagrams, but would 
like to know who put them in and what they did.  Looked like smart 
controllers between the network and devices and a 360/65.


thanks
Jim

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

> I used to read his column for its humor value but I always thought
> of him as an idiot as far as comuters were concerned.

Apparently this opinion is fairly widely shared:

http://www.panix.com/~clp/humor/computers/general/Jerry-Pournelle-parody.html

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- "My inner geek can beat up your inner geek." ---

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2017-Sep-12, at 9:47 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
>>  wrote:
>>> He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular
>> hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)
>> 
>> Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
>> the story of that.
>> 
> 
> http://www.stormtiger.org/bob/humor/pournell/story.html


The story reminds me of an incident around the same time (~mid-80s, well before 
opening of the 'net to public access), some guy-off-the-street came into the 
uni. comp sci department wanting a connection to the arpa/internet.
I wasn't directly involved but as I heard it his attitude wasn't merely asking 
but leaning somewhere towards demanding.
He was shown the door.

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 9/15/17 12:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> I recall that he was a bit of a pompous a** on his Usenet postings, but
> you have to realize that the tenor of online conversation was very

My one interaction with him was at a Hackers. insert DRUNKEN between
pompous and a**

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/15/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

> Never understood why Byte kept him around, unless for his humor
> value.  And, even being a long time SciFi fan I didn't like his books
> either.

I recall that he was a bit of a pompous a** on his Usenet postings, but
you have to realize that the tenor of online conversation was very much
different back then than it is today.  Even using a relatively mild
obscenity could get your censured.

I never cared for Pournelle's SF either.

--Chuck

RE: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Geoffrey Oltmans via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 2:27 PM
To: Jim Brain; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 9/15/2017 10:49 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Wow... that really doesn't make him look good at all!
>>
>>
>>> It does not surprise me.  Not that I knew the man, but it seems in
> general, our heroes are more blemished and our villains more redeemable
> than we want to remember or admit.
>
> On a more practical note.  If I were a writer, had an audience, and
> managed to snag an account on the coolest network around, I'd probably have
> flaunted it as well, with the same end.
>
>
I didn't either. He answered a couple of questions or posts on one of the
RoundTables on GEnie for me when I was on there ages ago, but that's the
only interaction I've had with him.  He seemed fairly likable on there as I
recall.
___

I used to read his column for its humor value but I always thought
of him as an idiot as far as comuters were concerned. Never understood
why Byte kept him around, unless for his humor value.  And, even being
a long time SciFi fan I didn't like his books either.

bill

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Sep 13, 2017, at 12:47 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
>>  wrote:
>>> He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular
>> hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)
>> 
>> Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
>> the story of that.
>> 
> 
> http://www.stormtiger.org/bob/humor/pournell/story.html

Interesting, the way they commented on that line from Oath of Fealty.  I guess 
at least some of the people involved *really* disliked Jerry's politics.  Not 
clear that affected their decision, but it's certainly there to be seen.

paul

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk]

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 9/15/2017 10:49 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Wow... that really doesn't make him look good at all!
>>
>>
>>> It does not surprise me.  Not that I knew the man, but it seems in
> general, our heroes are more blemished and our villains more redeemable
> than we want to remember or admit.
>
> On a more practical note.  If I were a writer, had an audience, and
> managed to snag an account on the coolest network around, I'd probably have
> flaunted it as well, with the same end.
>
>
I didn't either. He answered a couple of questions or posts on one of the
RoundTables on GEnie for me when I was on there ages ago, but that's the
only interaction I've had with him.  He seemed fairly likable on there as I
recall.

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Jim Brain via cctalk]

On 9/15/2017 10:49 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote:

Wow... that really doesn't make him look good at all!



On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
 wrote:

He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular

hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)

Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
the story of that.


http://www.stormtiger.org/bob/humor/pournell/story.html

It does not surprise me.  Not that I knew the man, but it seems in 
general, our heroes are more blemished and our villains more redeemable 
than we want to remember or admit.


On a more practical note.  If I were a writer, had an audience, and 
managed to snag an account on the coolest network around, I'd probably 
have flaunted it as well, with the same end.


Jim

--
Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk]

Wow... that really doesn't make him look good at all!



On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
> >  wrote:
> > > He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular
> > hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)
> >
> > Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
> > the story of that.
> >
>
> http://www.stormtiger.org/bob/humor/pournell/story.html
>

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular
> hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)
>
> Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
> the story of that.
>

http://www.stormtiger.org/bob/humor/pournell/story.html

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Robert via cctalk]

 It's arguable that his daybook, Chaos Manor, was the first Blog.

Very sad news. I still find myself instinctively clicking on the
bookmark to his site, in the mornings.

-- 
Robert

On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk
 wrote:
> Charles Dickman via cctalk  writes:
>>> He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular
>>> hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off
>>> ARPANET!)
>> Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
>> the story of that.
>
> You should probably ask Leigh Klotz.
>
> http://klotz.me/

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Charles Dickman via cctalk  writes:
>> He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular
>> hobbyist-type context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off
>> ARPANET!)
> Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
> the story of that.

You should probably ask Leigh Klotz.

http://klotz.me/

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
 wrote:
> He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular hobbyist-type 
> context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)

Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
the story of that.

Much more interesting to read about than that nobody was every really
first at anything etc, etc, etc.

-chuck

RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Shoppa, Tim via cctalk]

He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular hobbyist-type 
context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)

Tim