Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

Noel said
> I just took a quick glance at this, and noticed on major thing that's off:
> you're showing the bottom side of the stabilizer foot as at right angles to
> the vertical of the rack; it's not. See here:
>
>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/StabilizerFoot.jpg
>
> in which I have attempted to place the ruler at a right angle to the vertical
> (as available in the plate where the two horizontal bolts go through).

Hmmm. Well that changes things a bit. That's the first actual photo I've seen 
of the foot, and I
see what you mean.

> I _guess_ I could try and work out how to measure the amount of drop; maybe I
> can get one side of a T-square onto that vertical (on the front), get a
> horizontal from that, and start measuring...

When measuring it, don't just use the ruler on its own. Let's regard the inner 
vertical surface
where it mates to the rack as the normal surface. If you have a length of 
something straight
such as a piece of aluminium angle or steel bar, clamp it with a G-clamp or 
quick-release clamp to
that inner surface and then use an engineers square or setsquare off that. The 
bar thickness can
be easily subtracted later.
A sharp pencil to make marks on the foot could help (if you're ok with that, 
they should rub off).

A pencil rubbing on paper, or paper creasing slong eges then drawn over with a 
ruler can also help
to get angled surfaces. I spent some hours at a military museum some years ago 
taking creasings
and rubbings of the fittings on a vehicle there, the staff were very 
understanding :)

Another thing, CAD can make good use of non-perpendicular measurements. So if 
you're able to
measure something across a diagonal or at some odd angle, then please do so. It 
can be used to
triangulate and improve other taken measurements, like a point cloud.

> There are two different kinds of kickplates:
>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/Kickplate.jpg
>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/ExtensionFootBolt.jpg
> My vernier caliper says 1.66mm (including paint, of course); whatever that
> turns into. Both types are the same.

Thanks for that, it all helps!

Steve.

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Steven Malikoff

> Using the new bolt info, it's refined a little more:

I just took a quick glance at this, and noticed on major thing that's off:
you're showing the bottom side of the stabilizer foot as at right angles to
the vertical of the rack; it's not. See here:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/StabilizerFoot.jpg

in which I have attempted to place the ruler at a right angle to the vertical
(as available in the plate where the two horizontal bolts go through).

I _guess_ I could try and work out how to measure the amount of drop; maybe I
can get one side of a T-square onto that vertical (on the front), get a
horizontal from that, and start measuring...


> I'm assuming the plate goes on after the feet have been placed on the
> rack, and the #10 screws hold it all together.

There are two different kinds of kickplates:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/Kickplate.jpg

Both have to go on after the feet, since the bolts go through these, and then
through the feet, into the rack. The newer (I think) 'diagonal' ones don't
cover the top of the feet, so you can tighten the large vertical bolt after
the two smaller horizontal bolts. The latter are sort of necessary; there's
often some play in the stabilizer foot, even with the large vertical bolt
tightened.

(BTW: here:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/ExtensionFootBolt.jpg 

is an image of one of those, which I posted a while back.)

> I'm guessing the kickplate is 16 guage sheetmetal..?

My vernier caliper says 1.66mm (including paint, of course); whatever that
turns into. Both types are the same.

Noel

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

On 07/01/2018 07:57, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:

I can't find anything suitable on MMC 
(https://www.mcmaster.com/#countersunk-head-machine-screws/=1b0p4yz

) so Chuck's probably right, machine them up. Maybe start from a long
 5/16" shank hex-head bolt and put the countersink and 1/4-20 thread
 on.


That should work.


Thanks for the drawing for the kickplate. I'm assuming the plate goes
on after the feet have been placed on the rack, and the #10 screws
hold it all together. I'm guessing the kickplate is 16 guage 
sheetmetal..?


Near enough, my micrometer says between 1.65mm and 1.70mm, the variation 
probably being due to the paint.  For our American listeners, that's 
16SWG (not AWG!).


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

Pete said
> On 07/01/2018 01:44, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> On 01/06/2018 04:54 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the
>>> real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC.  I really must learn to think before
>>> putting finger to keyboard.
>>
>> If it's "quarter-twenty", that's a size shared by many refrigerators and
>> other heavy household appliances.  I think I even have a few of those
>> mushroom-headed screws salvaged from one.
>
> Except the proper screws are countersink head, not mushroom, because
> mushroom heads would prevent the kickplate being fitted (and the shank
> is 5/16" - only the end is threaded 1/4-20).

Thanks Pete and everyone, really fantastic input.
Using the new bolt info, it's refined a little more:
http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_H960_stabiliser_foot_left_A-H952-BA_revision_3_dimensioned.jpg

I can't find anything suitable on MMC 
(https://www.mcmaster.com/#countersunk-head-machine-screws/=1b0p4yz )
so Chuck's probably right, machine them up. Maybe start from a long 5/16" shank 
hex-head bolt and put the
countersink and 1/4-20 thread on.
Thanks for the drawing for the kickplate. I'm assuming the plate goes on after 
the feet have been placed
on the rack, and the #10 screws hold it all together. I'm guessing the 
kickplate is 16 guage sheetmetal..?

Steve.

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 01/06/2018 06:07 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> On 07/01/2018 01:44, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> On 01/06/2018 04:54 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the
>>> real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC.  I really must learn to think before
>>> putting finger to keyboard.
>>
>> If it's "quarter-twenty", that's a size shared by many refrigerators and
>> other heavy household appliances.  I think I even have a few of those
>> mushroom-headed screws salvaged from one.
> 
> Except the proper screws are countersink head, not mushroom, because
> mushroom heads would prevent the kickplate being fitted (and the shank
> is 5/16" - only the end is threaded 1/4-20).

Ah, okay--I'm used to HP racks, which are a bit more traditional.

Well, there's always the ol' lathe...

--Chuck

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

On 07/01/2018 01:44, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 01/06/2018 04:54 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:


No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the
real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC.  I really must learn to think before
putting finger to keyboard.


If it's "quarter-twenty", that's a size shared by many refrigerators and
other heavy household appliances.  I think I even have a few of those
mushroom-headed screws salvaged from one.


Except the proper screws are countersink head, not mushroom, because 
mushroom heads would prevent the kickplate being fitted (and the shank 
is 5/16" - only the end is threaded 1/4-20).


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 01/06/2018 04:54 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:

> No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the
> real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC.  I really must learn to think before
> putting finger to keyboard.

If it's "quarter-twenty", that's a size shared by many refrigerators and
other heavy household appliances.  I think I even have a few of those
mushroom-headed screws salvaged from one.

A visit to an appliance dealer might be in order.

--Chuck

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

Sigh.  Third time lucky.

On 06/01/2018 16:11, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:


Correction - it's 10-32.   I found one of the screws, photo at
http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1006.JPG


No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the 
real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC.  I really must learn to think before 
putting finger to keyboard.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

On 06/01/2018 15:45, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:

On 06/01/2018 12:04, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
Using the measurements provided by Vince I've rejigged the drawing a 
bit and it ought to be closer.


Looks good to me except...

I had thought the hole in the front corner of the H960 was for a front 
panel pivot, but it seems the foot does actually use it.


Yes, that's essential!  But unlike in your drawing, the large screw that 
holds the stabiliser foot into that hole is a large-head countersunk 
screw, not a pan-head screw, and only the very bottom part of it is 
threaded, 8-32 IIRC.


Correction - it's 10-32.   I found one of the screws, photo at
http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1006.JPG

The head diameter is 15.9mm (5/8")
It's a 45 degree countersink with a flattened underside
The shank diameter is 7.9mm (5/16") and 49mm long
The threaded portion is 15mm long x 10-32
The overall length is 66.7mm (2-5/8")

--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

On 06/01/2018 12:04, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:

Using the measurements provided by Vince I've rejigged the drawing a bit and it 
ought to be closer.


Looks good to me except...


I had thought the hole in the front corner of the H960 was for a front panel 
pivot, but it seems the foot
does actually use it.


Yes, that's essential!  But unlike in your drawing, the large screw that 
holds the stabiliser foot into that hole is a large-head countersunk 
screw, not a pan-head screw, and only the very bottom part of it is 
threaded, 8-32 IIRC.  The main part is a plain shank to fit the holes 
for the front panel pivot and also the holes in the stabiliser; only the 
part protruding below the stabiliser is threaded.  It's fitted with a 
shakeproof ("star") washer along with the nut, under the stabiliser.  I 
took all the stabilisers off my racks because they're superfluous in my 
setup, and I can't remember where I put them, so I can't double-check.



I don't have the kickplate nor access to measuring one, so that probably 
changes it a bit too.


That I do have, so I took it off one of the racks and you'll find some 
(poor quality, from a phone that doesn't do close focus very well) 
pictures at


http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_0999.JPG
http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1000.JPG
http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1001.JPG
http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1002.JPG
http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1003.JPG

and a hastily drawn sketch of the dimensions at
http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/kickplate.pdf
(NB This is a sketch, not a technical drawing, and is only approximately 
to scale).


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

Using the measurements provided by Vince I've rejigged the drawing a bit and it 
ought to be closer.
I hope this shows what was meant by the angled corner part, seems logical to 
have it like that.
The radii 'too small to measure' without a gauge was entered as 1/16" and it 
looks acceptable.

Basic layout, no measurements just a cm/inch scale:

http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_H960_stabiliser_foot_left_A-H952-BA_revision_2.jpg

Measurements (my CAD program converts everything to metric, when I entered in 
Vince's measurements):

http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_H960_stabiliser_foot_left_A-H952-BA_revision_2_dimensioned.jpg

How it might look, so far, attached to the H960 (no kickplate):

http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_H960_stabiliser_foot_left_A-H952-BA_revision_2_placed.jpg

I had thought the hole in the front corner of the H960 was for a front panel 
pivot, but it seems the foot
does actually use it.

I don't have the kickplate nor access to measuring one, so that probably 
changes it a bit too.

Steve.

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk]

From: Steve Malikoff via cctalk: Wednesday, January 03, 2018 3:26 PM
Vince - thanks for the measurements, I will redraw a better 3-view using 
those. Not sure about how the extra bolt goes though.


You're welcome, and thanks for your work on the drawing.

One thing I forgot to mention -- on mine, the path from edge "D"
to edge "G" is a diagonal, not a right angle.  That is, "K" starts at
zero, and grows to 1.0 inches at the tip where "G" is measured.
The thickness there looks similar to the thickness at "G".  (The
metal stiffens the flanges in both directions, preventing bending
or breakage.)

The extra bolt has a slotted flat screw head with a maximum
diameter of about 0.6" at the top edge, centered in the "D"
direction, and about 0.6" forward in the "K" direction.  I'd
have to get out some tools and take one apart to measure
it's length and thread, but it looks like a standard DECish
thread to my eye (#10-something?), and protrudes just a
few threads past the nut on the bottom.

   Vince 

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

Excellent, that's a great start.
Vince - thanks for the measurements, I will redraw a better 3-view using those. 
Not sure about how the extra bolt goes though.
Ethan - thanks for confirming the different leg pad to frame pad.
Noel  - that is extremely useful info on the pads, I've now found them at 
http://www.vlier.com/product_index/leveling/sel_05_lstar.html#
Paul  - yes I noticed some systems had different legs, for instance this one 
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2435/3878202215_372c46fccb_b.jpg
and any p/n info you have from better sources would be welcome.

The part number I found for the legs (H-952-BA) came from the Fall 1978 Digital 
Sales Catalog, page 129 which has the same p/n for both
Standard and Short cabinets.

I'll cogitate over a revised drawing and get back to the list.
Thanks again,

Steve.

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Paul Anderson via cctalk]

I would be interested in a few dozen of the cabinet feet and maybe 18 for
the stabilizer feet.

I seem to recall looking at a few of the stabilizer feet a few months ago
and noticing there were a few different versions. I will try to find my
cabinet handbook and see what it says, and supply DEC part numbers if
anyone is interested.

Paul



On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > From: Ethan Dicks
>
> > The rod is also smaller by quite a bit, but I don't have one in front
> > of me to measure.
>
> The two feet are quite different. The smaller one on the extender is
> 5/16"-18
> (i.e. UNC Coarse thread); the larger one under the cabinet is 1/2"-13.
>
> Replacements can easily be had from Vlier: Vlier part numbers are FSE302S
> (for the extender feet), and FSE306S (for the main feet).
>
>
> We really ought to do a group bulk build of the extension castings; if we
> get
> a reasonable size order together, they shouldn't be that expensive. Ditto
> for the special bolt needed to hold them to the H960.
>
> Noel
>

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Ethan Dicks

> The rod is also smaller by quite a bit, but I don't have one in front
> of me to measure.

The two feet are quite different. The smaller one on the extender is 5/16"-18
(i.e. UNC Coarse thread); the larger one under the cabinet is 1/2"-13.

Replacements can easily be had from Vlier: Vlier part numbers are FSE302S
(for the extender feet), and FSE306S (for the main feet).


We really ought to do a group bulk build of the extension castings; if we get
a reasonable size order together, they shouldn't be that expensive. Ditto
for the special bolt needed to hold them to the H960.

Noel

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk
 wrote:
> From: Steve Malikoff via cctalk: Tuesday, January 02, 2018 6:24 PM
>>
>> I'm in need of some feet for my H960s and am intending to make a few
>> pairs, so I thought I might as well try and make them look close to the 
>> originals.
>
>> Is the foot pad thread in the centre of the front of the leg, and is it
>> the same thread and pad as the H960?
>
> Yes.  The foot pad is smaller, but without removing the one on the
> rack it is hard to compare the threaded rods.

The rod is also smaller by quite a bit, but I don't have one in front
of me to measure.

-ethan

Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.

[Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk]

From: Steve Malikoff via cctalk: Tuesday, January 02, 2018 6:24 PM
I'm in need of some feet for my H960s and am intending to make a few pairs, so 
I thought I might

as well try and make them look close to the originals.



I have some questions-
Does the (optional?) sheetmetal kickplate play any role in securing these legs 
to the frame?


I assume by kickplate you mean that piece of square channel that is
bolted to the bottom front of the rack.  My feet seem to be bolted
to it and through it.

Are the two front screws are only there to hold them on and there is some 
internal box section that goes

into the front of the channel on the rack to take the weight?


There's a large fastener (machine screw with a large flat head) running
through the channel with a nut at the bottom, as well as two screws to
keep it from pivoting to the side.  Some of my kickplates have both
front screws and holes, and some only the upper hole.


Is the outer side tapered? It looks straight.


Straight.


If the foot a one piece casting (presumably) or fabricated in some way?


It looks like a one piece casting.

Is the foot pad thread in the centre of the front of the leg, and is it the 
same thread and pad as the H960?


Yes.  The foot pad is smaller, but without removing the one on the
rack it is hard to compare the threaded rods.

Finally I would really appreciate if someone could run a digital caliper over 
one, and fill in my required
measurements A through Q in the above drawing. And if you have a radius guage 
that would really be great.


A is about 9 1/8 inches.
B is 2 3/8 inches.
C is about 2.1 inches.
D is 1.45 inches.
E is 1.3 inches.
F is 1.25 inches.
G is approximately 0.2 inches.
H is 0.9 inches.
The threaded rod for I has a diameter of 0.305 inches.
If J is meant to be the foot pad, the radius is 0.6 inches.
K is 1.0 inches.
Radius L is approximately 1/4 inch.
If M is meant to be the corner bevel, those are a tight corner
that I can't measure accurately.
N is likewise a tight corner that I don't have a tool to measure.
I didn't find an "O".
P is also too tightly rounded for me to measure.
Q has a 1/8 inch radius.

Hope that helps!

   Vince