Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

. . .  people are more likely to find
it, when they're looking for info on a topic, if it's part of something like
the CHWiki, than they are on individual Web sites.


. . . and, there is an amazing amount of stuff to glean from the archives 
of this mailing list (although it may not survive all disasters).


And, all that you need to do, to find this information about various 
aspects of finding things, is to be able to guess that it is 
filed under:

"Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1."

We don't seem to ever get around to adjusting subject lines, which permits 
incorrect subject line to be an impediment to searching.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Grant Taylor

> I've had plenty of things that I've found and referenced over the years
> that have disappeared from where I knew it was.

Ah, bit rot - the scourge of the Web. Thank G-d for the Internet Archive!

Although at least one major list archive had been marked to exclude robots,
or something, because even though I had 'good at one point URLs', the IA
contained... zip.

> I've taken to mirroring copies of it on my site, with proper
> accreditation. 

Yes:

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/archives.html#Personal

and of course also:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/

(need to add a link to that one on my home page...)

Noel

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Is there any thing that really needs to saved from the internet that is 
need for old computers and ancient knowledge regardless of IP rights.



That just leaves your shadow.



I'm not sure I follow what you mean.


Only the shadow knows.

I've had plenty of things that I've found and referenced over the years that 
have disappeared from where I knew it was.  As such, I've taken to mirroring 
copies of it on my site, with proper accreditation.  I usually add a comment 
to the effect that I'm hosting a local copy of it in case it disappears or 
moves.  I also provide a contact link at the bottom of my pages that anyone 
can use to comment on said page.


The internet is written in sand.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones.

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/11/2018 05:25 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:

That just leaves your shadow.


I'm not sure I follow what you mean.

Is there any thing that really needs to saved from the internet that is 
need for old computers and ancient knowledge regardless of IP rights.


I've had plenty of things that I've found and referenced over the years 
that have disappeared from where I knew it was.  As such, I've taken to 
mirroring copies of it on my site, with proper accreditation.  I usually 
add a comment to the effect that I'm hosting a local copy of it in case 
it disappears or moves.  I also provide a contact link at the bottom of 
my pages that anyone can use to comment on said page.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[ben via cctalk]

On 2/11/2018 3:10 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

Also, the page that started this ("How to enable USB drives in both 
Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1") might well be ditched from Wikipedia, 
for a variety of Wiki-bureacratic reasons I won't get into here ('no 
original research', plus to which it's not really suitable material 
for a general encyclopaedia).


Another perc with my own site.  As long as "Me", "Myself", and "I" are 
in agreement, things are good.


That just leaves your shadow.
Is there any thing that really needs to saved from the internet that is 
need for old computers and ancient knowledge regardless of IP rights.

Ben.

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

 >Sure. Neither would I. But how is this relevant to the CHWiki question?

>> If I had to go to that extent of writing it as a robust, referenced,
>> refereed, definitive technical article, I probably wouldn't bother.

If I was writing an article as a contributor for a reference wiki, I
wouldn't want to contribute anything less than that kind of article.
If the reference wiki is happy to accept blog postings then I'd prefer to
write for my own site, for the reason's outlined.

Terry (Tez)

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Terry Stewart

> If I had to go to that extent of writing it as a robust, referenced,
> refereed, definitive technical article, I probably wouldn't bother. 

Sure. Neither would I. But how is this relevant to the CHWiki question?

Noel

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Given that my article started this discussion, I should add my 2 cents
worth.


I’ll continue to do what I’m doing rather than putting this stuff on CHWiki.
Grant’s motivations and explanations for posting on his site are pretty
much the same as mine.  I document these things largely for myself as an
“activity record”, but I hope others also find them useful and can learn
from what I have done.  A personal style is used,..usually narrative… and
articles usually contain reflections etc.   Where some advice is given, it
is something that has worked for me, and the text does not always cover all
options (or their pros and cons), or contain references.



I tend to share the link around the groups I belong to once the article is
complete in case it's relevant to someone.  Not everyone will read it of
course but I figure that if there is a glaring omission, or something that
is just plain wrong, someone will comment and I'll amend the text.  All the
articles allow comments, so people can add their own
thoughts/corrections/extensions if they want to.



If I had to go to that extent of writing it as a robust, referenced,
refereed, definitive technical article, I probably wouldn’t bother.  I am
not at all diminishing the usefulness of such a document on some aspect of
vintage computing…that stuff is often gold and I applaud people for doing
it.  It’s just I don’t have the time, motivation (or often the deep
expertise in the subject matter) to do it.   For me, vintage computing is a
hobby, and these articles are a creative outlet.  I do enough technical
writing in my real job as an academic in the agricultural sciences.  Maybe
when I'm retired



 >Maybe it's silly, but I view my site as somewhat of it's own brand
>(as minimal ~> non-existent as it may be) and I use it as my own reference.



It is not silly…and actually, that is quite an honest reflection.  I like
to add articles to “Tezza’s blog” when I complete an activity.  It keeps
these articles together, people can see what I do, and the kind of things I
am interested it.


Google captures the pages, although it can take a few weeks for them to
appear in searches. I am confident most people could find them with
well-thought out search terms.  The pages are easily linked and shared with
Facebook etc.  Personally I never use wikis etc, when looking for
information.  I always use a search engine.  I usually find what I want.  I
suspect 99% of people do this.  Sometimes the search engine points me to a
wiki of course.



Posting under my own domain does allow a great deal of control, as opposed
to contributing to another site.  It means you can change the style if you
want, add advertisements (I don’t intend to) and add bits and pieces which
may facilitate social media and sharing.  A couple of years ago I revamped
the whole site so it would be mobile friendly.



Like Grant, I have no objection to anyone linking to the site or
amending/adding what I’ve done (with appropriate citation).  We all stand
on the shoulders of others.



Terry (Tez)

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/11/2018 01:41 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

It wasn't just supposition on my part; as I had mentioned:


I'm not saying (or implying) that it was supposition on anybodies part.

I understand that you do have the opinion that having something on 
CHWiki's site make make it more likely for someone to find something. 
I'd like to think that I understand why too.


I'm saying that I do not subscribe to that belief.

and I didn't cheat by using, e.g. KT11-B, I tried to use fairly generic 
things, e.g. 'RK05 disk drive' (third listing), 'PDP-11' (fifth listing), 
etc.


I didn't figure that you did.

Admittedly, that's hardly cast-iron proof, but it's a lot beter than just 
'it stands to [my] reason'


Agreed.  It's also more than many will do to defend their stance.

I myself haven't offered anything to defend my stance.  -  Rather I'm 
simply stating that it's /my/ stance, which happens to differ from yours.


Huh? If you do a Google search for 'computer history wiki', it's the 
first non-Wikipedia page in the results list.


I figured that you were referring to "Computer History Wiki", but I did 
not want to make any (likely incorrect) assumptions.


I call it the CHWiki when typing posts for here since I would get tired 
of typing out the whole long 'Computer History wiki' every time, but I 
will add that short term to some pages there to help it show up under 
that name.


That seems perfectly reasonable and like something I would do myself.

Be my guest!  I've been there, done that, and moved on, because I got 
tired of stupidity like this:


  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_the_Internet/Archive_3#Pictures


10% likely is more likely than 1% likely to post to Wikipedia.

I have no desire to get involved in politics.

I want to write things the way /I/ want to.  Hence why my site is so 
appealing to me.  -  I'm free to meet (or not) the low bar.  ;-)


Also, the page that started this ("How to enable USB drives in both 
Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1") might well be ditched from Wikipedia, 
for a variety of Wiki-bureacratic reasons I won't get into here ('no 
original research', plus to which it's not really suitable material for 
a general encyclopaedia).


Another perc with my own site.  As long as "Me", "Myself", and "I" are 
in agreement, things are good.



Err, no. The first and third _pre-date_ my joining the CHWiki.


ACK

Why I did the second one as a page on my own site, I don't really recall - 
maybe because it changed so much in the course of researching it? (It's 
very convenient - I had the HTML source on disk opened in a browser 
window, and any time I wanted to see what it currently looked like, 
I just had to hit the 'refresh' button.)


Yep.

That's what my development cycle is usually like.

10 ssh host
20 cp template newarticle
30 vim newarticle
40 view new article
50 if not happy with new article goto 30
60 logout


I have done several major things only on the CHWiki, e.g.:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/KT11-B_Technical_Manual

as well as a ton of other stuff.


Thank you for your time and effort.  I'm sure the community appreciates 
what you've done.


But clearly you aren't interested in moving off your own personal site - 
which is fine.


It's more that I'm going to publish on my own site /first/.  What 
happens /after/ that, I mostly don't care.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/11/2018 01:31 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:
Nothing but if you're OK with the CHWiki linking to your site (or even 
wholesale copying articles with an attribution) that would be a start 
(even if it's someone other than you doing it).


I would like other sites to link to my site.  I view that social link 
graph as part of the value of the web.  (I also think it's part of 
Google's secret sauce.)


I'm perfectly fine with both links to my site, or wholesale copies 
/with/ proper credit / attribution.


There are already articles that come from Wikipedia (with attribution) 
so I assume that linking to other sites (or lifting articles with 
permission) would be OK too.


*nod*

One advantage (for the rest of us, at least) might be that the CHWiki 
might outlast your site (although if you've asked archive.org to keep 
tabs on your site, that may not be the case I suppose).


That is entirely possible.  Of course the opposite is also possible too. 
 That's one of the reasons I like to have copies of things on my site, 
with proper attribution to where it's copied from.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Grant Taylor

>> people are more likely to find it, when they're looking for info on a
>> topic, if it's part of something like the CHWiki, than they are on
>> individual Web sites.

> I question the validity of it.

It wasn't just supposition on my part; as I had mentioned:

>> I just tried a few samples to verify that claim

and I didn't cheat by using, e.g. KT11-B, I tried to use fairly generic
things, e.g. 'RK05 disk drive' (third listing), 'PDP-11' (fifth listing),
etc.

Admittedly, that's hardly cast-iron proof, but it's a lot beter than just 'it
stands to [my] reason'


> searching Google for CHWiki came up with things that I think were name
> collisions.

Huh? If you do a Google search for 'computer history wiki', it's the first
non-Wikipedia page in the results list.

I call it the CHWiki when typing posts for here since I would get tired of
typing out the whole long 'Computer History wiki' every time, but I will add
that short term to some pages there to help it show up under that name.


> I'd be more likely to publish things on (what I consider to be) an even
> bigger and more well known Wiki, namely Wikipedia.

Be my guest! :-) I've been there, done that, and moved on, because I got
tired of stupidity like this:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_the_Internet/Archive_3#Pictures

Also, the page that started this ("How to enable USB drives in both Windows
98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1") might well be ditched from Wikipedia, for a variety of
Wiki-bureacratic reasons I won't get into here ('no original research', plus
to which it's not really suitable material for a general encyclopaedia).


>>   http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html
>>   http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/multics/MulticsPanels.html
>>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html
>>
>> so I do understand going that way.

> it seems as if you are asking us to do something different than you
> yourself are currently doing

Err, no. The first and third _pre-date_ my joining the CHWiki.

Why I did the second one as a page on my own site, I don't really recall -
maybe because it changed so much in the course of researching it? (It's very
convenient - I had the HTML source on disk opened in a browser window, and
any time I wanted to see what it currently looked like, I just had to hit the
'refresh' button.)

I have done several major things only on the CHWiki, e.g.:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/KT11-B_Technical_Manual

as well as a ton of other stuff.


But clearly you aren't interested in moving off your own personal site -
which is fine.

Noel

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 11/02/18 19:14, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:



So what compels me to put content on someone else's site and not my site?



Nothing but if you're OK with the CHWiki linking to your site (or even 
wholesale copying articles with an attribution) that would be a start 
(even if it's someone other than you doing it).


There are already articles that come from Wikipedia (with attribution) 
so I assume that linking to other sites (or lifting articles with 
permission) would be OK too.


I guess that I can be selfish and say that my site is first and 
foremost for me.  If others happen to be able to learn from or benefit 
from it, GREAT!  But I'm going to do things for me, where I want (on 
my site) first and foremost.


One advantage (for the rest of us, at least) might be that the CHWiki 
might outlast your site (although if you've asked archive.org to keep 
tabs on your site, that may not be the case I suppose).


Antonio

--
Antonio Carlini
arcarl...@iee.org

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/11/2018 12:14 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
As you pointed out and commented about the links you provided, they are 
online somewhere other than the CHWiki.


I also see a LOT of content that could go on CHWiki, et al, that pass 
through mailing lists and newsgroups.  Both of which are mediums that do 
not intersect CHWiki or the World Wide Web.  -  I would be shocked if 
there aren't some participants to various mailing lists / newsgroups 
that are sharing their expertise of things via something they can access 
compared to not sharing with something that they can't (or won't) 
access, namely WWW.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/10/2018 07:45 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
Right, but my question is 'why are you writing them?' Is it just because 
you enjoy writing, or do you do it in an attempt to convey information 
to others?  (Or perhaps some motivation I haven't guessed?)


Because I want to?
Because I want to document something that I've done or learned.
Because I want to share said documentation.
Because I want to (hopefully) help others.
Because I want others to be able to learn from my toil.

Because if it's the latter, my point is that people are more likely 
to find it, when they're looking for info on a topic, if it's part of 
something like the CHWiki, than they are on individual Web sites.


I hear what you're saying.  However I question the validity of it.

For starters, I can't say as I've knowingly been to the CHWiki as I've 
been researching things over the years.  Maybe I have and would 
recognize it when I see it.


So, I spent some time searching the thread for the CHWiki's address. 
And I've not found what I would think to be it yet.  Further, searching 
Google for CHWiki came up with things that I think were name collisions.


As you pointed out and commented about the links you provided, they are 
online somewhere other than the CHWiki.


So what compels me to put content on someone else's site and not my site?

Maybe it's silly, but I view my site as somewhat of it's own brand (as 
minimal ~> non-existent as it may be) and I use it as my own reference.


One of my main reasons for putting things on my site (other than it 
being somewhere that I control) is that I can search my site and use it 
as my own notes.  -  Notes that just happen to be public for others to 
learn from.


Not only can it be included in an organized way (so that one can start 
with the home page, and hopefully click on a few links to get to the topic 
one's interested in), but Google et al (the _only_ way people are likely 
to find a writeup in a personal Web-site)


I'm going to have to disagree with you.

I think that I find the vast majority of interesting content via social 
networks, when people publish links to their articles on their own sites.


I've probably amassed over 200 different sites ~> authors that I keep 
periodic tabs on via RSS feeds.  Ultimately I can argue that I'm finding 
/more/ valuable content this way than I would if I were to only find 
things in a centralized location.


I also see a number of interesting links float through mailing lists and 
newsgroups.  Point in case, I'll likely be going through your website (I 
believe again) based on the links you provided below.


Since I'm playing the part of the Devils Advocate, I'd be more likely to 
publish things on (what I consider to be) an even bigger and more well 
known Wiki, namely Wikipedia.


I'm sorry, but you haven't provided any compelling reason for /me/ to 
publish things somewhere else before I publish it on my own site.


I'd like to restate that I have zero qualms with people taking what they 
learn from my site and using it to grow ideas and develop their own 
articles.  -  I simply ask that they give me credit or cite me / my site 
as a source.


To this end, I've had a few people contact me and ask for permission to 
publish derived works.  I've responded to all of such requests with 
humility that they asked, appreciation for the consideration, and my 
blessing to go forward and create something better.


I have walked on the shoulders of giants that came before me, and I'm 
happy to have others walk on my shoulders (not that I'm a giant).


I'm not sure how their display selection algorithm works (and I gather 
they are always tweaking it, both in attempt to make the results more 
useful, but also to prevent people from gaming it), but it does seem to 
like sites that have a mass of content.


I think we've had different experiences.

The number of links to a site does help, but I believe it's a ratio to 
the number of pages on the site.  At least that's my impression.


So if you're going to put all that work into writing something up, _and_ 
the goal is for people to use it...


I believe that people can find things on my site, as small as it is.

I agree it's better to have stuff online in a private site, than not at 
all. I have done this quite a bit myself, e.g.:


  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html
  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/multics/MulticsPanels.html
  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html

so I do understand going that way. (The last two could easily be moved 
to the CHWiki, if I had the time/energy...)


So, I glibly observe, that it seems as if you are asking us to do 
something different than you yourself are currently doing, for much the 
same reasoning that I outlined.


But speaking of the time to write things, that's another advantage of 
using the CHWiki - if you want to mention some technical term/concept, 
on the CHWiki you can just link to it with '[[xxx']]', and if some 

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 02/11/2018 05:47 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:

> How do you go about testing them? Do you just use a device that is known
> to require (say) 2A and check that it runs happily or have you rigged up
> something to draw 2A and then check that you don't see a voltage drop
> (and/or smell/see burning!)?

Easier than that--I just measure the resistance.

--Chuck

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 11/02/18 00:28, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Dredging up an old thread, I'd like to report that I found some decent
mini B-to-USB A cables from Monoprice.com.  They're advertised as 28/24
AWG 3 ft. long.   They ran $1.13 each and look to be fit for use.

--Chuck

How do you go about testing them? Do you just use a device that is known 
to require (say) 2A and check that it runs happily or have you rigged up 
something to draw 2A and then check that you don't see a voltage drop 
(and/or smell/see burning!)?



Antonio

--
Antonio Carlini
arcarl...@iee.org

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Dredging up an old thread, I'd like to report that I found some decent
mini B-to-USB A cables from Monoprice.com.  They're advertised as 28/24
AWG 3 ft. long.   They ran $1.13 each and look to be fit for use.

--Chuck

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Grant Taylor cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net 

> Sorry if this comes across wrong. ... I'm replying in an attempt to
> provide a counter point for a discussion of reality. So please don't
> take this as an attack on you, or your laudable appeal.

No problem!

> When I write things for my personal site, I want them first and
> foremost to be on my personal site.

Right, but my question is 'why are you writing them?' Is it just because you
enjoy writing, or do you do it in an attempt to convey information to others?
(Or perhaps some motivation I haven't guessed?)

Because if it's the latter, my point is that people are more likely to find
it, when they're looking for info on a topic, if it's part of something like
the CHWiki, than they are on individual Web sites.

Not only can it be included in an organized way (so that one can start with
the home page, and hopefully click on a few links to get to the topic one's
interested in), but Google et al (the _only_ way people are likely to find a
writeup in a personal Web-site) are likely to show the CHWiki page on a topic
fairly high in their search output. (I just tried a few samples to verify
that claim, so it's not just a supposition on my part! :-)

I'm not sure how their display selection algorithm works (and I gather they
are always tweaking it, both in attempt to make the results more useful, but
also to prevent people from gaming it), but it does seem to like sites that
have a mass of content.

So if you're going to put all that work into writing something up, _and_
the goal is for people to use it...

> Since I'm going to write for my site first, and I'm having to make time
> to do so ... I think it's more important to get things recorded
> somewhere, even if it's not the ideal location, than it is to delay
> getting them recorded elsewhere, if ever.

I agree it's better to have stuff online in a private site, than not at
all. I have done this quite a bit myself, e.g.:

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html
  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/multics/MulticsPanels.html
  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html

so I do understand going that way. (The last two could easily be moved to the
CHWiki, if I had the time/energy...)

But speaking of the time to write things, that's another advantage of using
the CHWiki - if you want to mention some technical term/concept, on the
CHWiki you can just link to it with '[[xxx']]', and if some novice reading
the article needs to know more about that topic, they just click on the link;
no need to write explanatory text yourself.

E.g. my 'Bringing up V6 Unix on the Ersatz-11 PDP-11 Emulator' page would
probably have benefitted from that, and been a bit less long-winded as
a result...

Noel

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

Sorry if this comes across wrong.  I think I'm fighting a meat space 
bug.  As such my filters are a little less functional than normal.


On 02/09/2018 12:00 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
Hi, can I appeal to you (and everyone else who writes up these kinds of 
notes) to put this stuff on the Computer History wiki?


You can appeal to me.  But I don't think I'm likely to listen.

And no, I don't have time to upload all this stuff myself - I have too 
much other stuff I'm trying to work on!


This is the primary reason as to why your appeal falls short for me.  (I 
have no idea about others.)


When I write things for my personal site, I want them first and foremost 
to be on my personal site.  I don't really care if they are copied 
elsewhere.  I give people permission to copy, just with credit.


Since I'm going to write for my site first, and I'm having to make time 
to do so, I'm not likely to make additional time to put the content 
elsewhere.



So, please - let's get organized!


I believe that your goal is laudable and should be encouraged.  It's 
just that the unfriendly reality is that time and motivation is 
diametrically opposed to what you're asking.  I think it's more 
important to get things recorded somewhere, even if it's not the ideal 
location, than it is to delay getting them recorded elsewhere, if ever.


Again, your appeal is heard, understood, and sadly dismissed.  At least 
for my current situation.


I'm replying in an attempt to provide a counter point for a discussion 
of reality.  So please don't take this as an attack on you, or your 
laudable appeal.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Terry Stewart

> 
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-MS-DOS-and-Win98.htm

> Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do
> this.

Hi, can I appeal to you (and everyone else who writes up these kinds of
notes) to put this stuff on the Computer History wiki?

When things like this get placed in the CCTalk archives (for which there is
no search system other than Google), or on people's personal sites (ditto) -
and I have in the past BTDT for both of these, myself - it's probably going
to be hard to find them amidst all the other dross that a Google search
typically produces, a couple of years down the road.

With the CHWiki, we stand a chance of filtering out the useful information
and making available, and _organizing_ all this stuff so that it's possible
to find relevant information when it's needed...

And no, I don't have time to upload all this stuff myself - I have too much
other stuff I'm trying to work on! :-)

So, please - let's get organized!

Noel

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Ken Seefried via cctalk]

From: Curious Marc 
>
> On Windows 7, using regedit, set
>
> ?HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Lsa\LMCompatibilityLevel?
>  to ?1?
>You might need to create the new entry under \lsa as a REG_DWORD, set 
> to 1
>

As your friendly neighbourhood infosec type, please be aware that this
setting opens a rather nasty set of possible security issues.  Fine on
your lab network, but you probably don't want a machine configured
like that on a possibly hostile network.

KJ

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Curious Marc via cctalk]

> As to ExittoDOS.pif, this doesn't seem to exist on a Windows 98SE install.


If I remember well, the ExitToDOS file gets created automatically the first 
time you exit to DOS manually from Win98. I use it all the time to go back and 
forth from the DOS environment to the GUI (go back to GUI typing WIN). But like 
you I have it boot directly to DOS as the default. 
Marc

>> 

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/07/2018 11:27 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote:

Here you go:

Networking between Win98 and Win7

On Windows 7, using regedit, set 
“HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Lsa\LMCompatibilityLevel” 
to “1” You might need to create the new entry under \lsa as a 
REG_DWORD, set to 1


I wonder what that does to the security posture of Windows 7.  Though, 
chances are good that's not as big a concern for a hobbyist.  (Assuming 
that they are more responsible about keeping other things up to date 
than the average person.)


On the Win98 machine: You have to install the Active Directory Extension, 
part of the unofficial service pack 3 which you have to download It's 
the first option on the install. I installed just that.


It's been too long.  Is the AD Extension strictly necessary on Windows 
98?  I thought that was to allow 98 to brows DFS and as such wasn't 
strictly needed to use old classic \\server\share UNC format.


Then from there it's regular stuff: put the machines on the same workgroup 
name, enable sharing of your folders, permissions, etc...


ACK  I expect that it's standard SMB networking (woes).

From Win7, the Win98 machine appears in the Network, just click on it 
to browse the shares


*nod*

From Win98, Win7 is not accessible from the Network Neighborhood. You 
have to type directly the share address in an Explorer toolbar window 
like so \\Workshop\SharedFolder I had to shorten my share names for this 
to work, long names did not work.


I wonder if this is an issue with Windows 98 not doing something, or an 
issue with Windows 7 not sending out broadcasts.


This sounds like classic SMB browse master related issues.  (I wonder if 
WINS server might help.)


Oh God, the bad old days of SMB.

Follow up question.  -  What protocol did you use?  TCP/IP?  I assume 
that Windows 7 doesn't have NetBEUI.  (I've not looked and I know 
Microsoft was trying to deprecate it.)


Thank you for sharing Marc.  :-)



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

 >That link mentions ExittoDOS.pif, and searches for it turn up related
information about dosstart.bat.
>I'd suggest digging around for them and some web searches.

Hmm..interesting.

>From a brief search and a test it seems using these files (or at least ones
similar to those described) may have allowed use of the MS-DOS drivers in
MS-DOS 7.1 but only AFTER a reboot from the GUI.  According to this..

http://madsenworld.dk/con_auto/index-uk.htm#dosstart

..dosstart.bat seems to be used when you EXIT from Windows and reboot to
DOS, rather than the start of a boot.  .

As to ExittoDOS.pif, this doesn't seem to exist on a Windows 98SE install.
What does exist are three PIF files called Dosprmpt, MSDOS mode for games
and MSDOS modes for games with EMS and XMS support.  I found you can edit a
config.sys and autoexec.bat box as part of the program's properties.
HOWEVER, these configs only seem to take effect with exiting Windows from
"Shut Down" --> "Restart in MSDOS mode".  I can't see anywhere how you can
use these BEFORE the GUI is loaded.  Certainly going straight to the
command line doesn't load them. What IS loaded when you do that is what's
ever in the existing config.sys and autoexec.bat.

As I don't want to waste time loading the GUI first, I'll stick with what
I've done.  It works and is quite efficient...but it does seem strange
there is no built-in facility to select an alternative Config.sys and
autoexec.bat if the user is going straight for the built in CLI on boot?
You would think that would be an obvious need.  It's always possible I
might have overlooked something, although I did spend a fair amount of time
in the search, and testing various permutations.

Terry (Tez)







On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 5:58 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/07/2018 09:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>
>> According to the following link from IBM, the process we are both
>> thinking of is valid, just using different files.
>>
>> http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/c546.htm
>>
>
> That link mentions ExittoDOS.pif, and searches for it turn up related
> information about dosstart.bat.
>
> I'd suggest digging around for them and some web searches.
>
> I don't currently have a 9x (V)M to test things on.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>I recall using these drivers several years ago.

>As I recall, the problem is that they're not amenable to hot-swapping.
>That is, is you're using a USB flash drive with them, there was no code
>that allowed you to remove the drive and substitute another without
>rebooting.

>Has this situation changed?

Good question Chuck.  Certainly the Windows 98SE one allows hot swapping if
you "stop" the drive but I haven't tried swapping with the MS-DOS ones.  I
would doubt it as there is no facility in MS-DOS I know to "unmount" one
and recognise another separately from driver load on boot.

Fortunately this functionality isn't important to me as I ever only use the
USB sticks to file transfer so one per sitting is all I need.

Terry (Tez)

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Curious Marc via cctalk]

Here you go: 

Networking between Win98 and Win7

On Windows 7, using regedit, set

“HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Lsa\LMCompatibilityLevel” 
to “1”
You might need to create the new entry under \lsa as a REG_DWORD, set 
to 1

On the Win98 machine:
You have to install the Active Directory Extension, part of
the unofficial service pack 3 which you have to download
It's the first option on the install. I installed just that.

Then from there it's regular stuff: put the machines on the same workgroup 
name, enable sharing of your folders, permissions, etc...
  
From Win7, the Win98 machine appears in the Network, just click on it to browse 
the shares

From Win98, Win7 is not accessible from the Network Neighborhood. You have to 
type
directly the share address in an Explorer toolbar window like so
\\Workshop\SharedFolder
I had to shorten my share names for this to work, long names did not 
work.
Marc

> On Feb 7, 2018, at 3:37 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Curious Marc  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Terry, I need to get my DOS7.1/Win98 Dolch to speak USB, that will
>> be helpful, particularly the DOS portion. I got my Win98 networked to Win7,
>> it's not that hard *once you know* and works really well. You have to
>> change one entry in the Win7 registry and add one package from the
>> unofficial Win98 service pack. If I find my notes I'll post them here.
>> Marc
>> 
> 
> Thanks Marc,
> 
> I probably won't attempt networking again (I did once), as I don't have a
> crossover cable and it's very convenient just to use the flash drive.  It
> would be good to know how to do it though and I'm sure other would
> appreciate that info.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Terry
> 
>> 
>> 

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Back in the W98SE days I bought USB sticks that came with drivers, so W98 has 
never been a problem.

Another approach for DOS if the system has 'boot from USB' capability is to 
just make a bootable DOS7 USB stick. 
Stick in: DOS, stick out: WIN98/XP/VISTA etc.; transfer files to heart's 
content.

Excellent writeup; thanks, Tez!

m

- Original Message - 
From: "Terry Stewart via cctalk" 
To: "Grant Taylor" ; "General Discussion: 
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.


>I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that
were used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit F8
and chose command line during boot.

Yes, the files you speak of are config.dos and autoexec.dos.  These
confused me at first because I thought just as you did. I put the driver
files in there. However, those files seem to be associated with the
PREVIOUS MS-DOS version (if one exists) prior to installation of Windows
98, NOT the CLI of Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1).  There is an option when
starting Windows 98 to boot to an earlier version of MS-DOS.  If this
earlier version is selected, then config.dos and autoexec.dos are read and
processed as config.sys and autoexec.bat for the DOS boot.  Otherwise, if
booting the Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1) CLI, these files are ignored and only
autoexec.bat and config.sys (if they exist) are processed.

Initially, I thought booting to the previous DOS install (in my case MS-DOS
6.2) would solve the USB problem, and I simply called up the older DOS
(MS-DOS 6.2) with the drivers using those *.dos files.  However, I was then
crippled by only being able to use a USB drive with FAT16 and a small
capacity.  I needed an MS-DOS 7.1 environment to give me FAT 32 hence the
config.sys "menu" system.

Terry (Tez)









On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/06/2018 12:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>
>> The title might suggest to topic is not vintage, but the reason I did
>> this myself was to facilitate classic computer disk imaging.
>>
>
> I'd think that something from ~20 years ago is indeed vintage.  (It's
> closer to the 25 year old requirement for cards to be vintage, than not.)
> Just not quite as vintage as some of the other topics on cctalk.
>
> I’ve recently given USB drive capability to the MS-DOS 7.1 environment in
>> a Windows 98SE computer I use for the purpose above. It was a bit of work
>> configuring the machine to ensure both the MS-DOS drivers and the Windows
>> 98SE drivers co-existed peacefully.
>>
>
> Intriguing.
>
> I figured that such was possible, but I've never tried.
>
> I'm no  Windows 98 guru (or MS-DOS guru for that matter) so it may not be
>> the most efficient or elegant of solutions.   However, it worked for me.
>> That being the case I thought I’d document what I did.
>>
>
> I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that were
> used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit F8 and
> chose command line during boot.
>
> Quick Google searches make me think that the MS-DOS mode files are named
> config.dos and autoexec.dos.  Then Windows will rename them when you select
> reboot into MS-DOS mode.
>
> Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do this.
>>
>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-M
>> S-DOS-and-Win98.htm
>>
>
> Thank you for sharing.
>
> I'm filing that away for future use.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Having trouble with that link; any tips?

m

- Original Message - 
From: "Grant Taylor via cctalk" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.


> On 02/07/2018 09:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>> According to the following link from IBM, the process we are both 
>> thinking of is valid, just using different files.
>> 
>> http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/c546.htm
> 
> That link mentions ExittoDOS.pif, and searches for it turn up related 
> information about dosstart.bat.
> 
> I'd suggest digging around for them and some web searches.
> 
> I don't currently have a 9x (V)M to test things on.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/07/2018 09:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
According to the following link from IBM, the process we are both 
thinking of is valid, just using different files.


http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/c546.htm


That link mentions ExittoDOS.pif, and searches for it turn up related 
information about dosstart.bat.


I'd suggest digging around for them and some web searches.

I don't currently have a 9x (V)M to test things on.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/07/2018 09:14 PM, Terry Stewart wrote:
Yes, the files you speak of are config.dos and autoexec.dos.  These 
confused me at first because I thought just as you did. I put the driver 
files in there. However, those files seem to be associated with the 
PREVIOUS MS-DOS version (if one exists) prior to installation of Windows 
98, NOT the CLI of Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1).  There is an option when 
starting Windows 98 to boot to an earlier version of MS-DOS.  If this 
earlier version is selected, then config.dos and autoexec.dos are read 
and processed as config.sys and autoexec.bat for the DOS boot.  
Otherwise, if booting the Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1) CLI, these files are 
ignored and only autoexec.bat and config.sys (if they exist) are processed.


According to the following link from IBM, the process we are both 
thinking of is valid, just using different files.


http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/c546.htm

Initially, I thought booting to the previous DOS install (in my case 
MS-DOS 6.2) would solve the USB problem, and I simply called up the 
older DOS (MS-DOS 6.2) with the drivers using those *.dos files.  
However, I was then crippled by only being able to use a USB drive with 
FAT16 and a small capacity.  I needed an MS-DOS 7.1 environment to give 
me FAT 32 hence the config.sys "menu" system.


Ya.  MS-DOS < 7.x doesn't understand FAT-32 drives.  -  I think there 
are drivers that you can load to add support for it.  Or you can just 
use MSDOS.SYS, IO.SYS, and COMMAND.COM from Windows 9x.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I recall using these drivers several years ago.

As I recall, the problem is that they're not amenable to hot-swapping.
That is, is you're using a USB flash drive with them, there was no code
that allowed you to remove the drive and substitute another without
rebooting.

Has this situation changed?

On a related note, I have several Ralink RT5370 USB Wifi dongles that I
find to be quite useful.

Has anyone gotten one to work with Windows 98SE (I won't even bring up
MS-DOS)?

I wondered if I could find a Windows 2000 miniport driver for it, that
it might work in Windows 98.

--Chuck

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

 >I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that
were used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit F8
and chose command line during boot.

Yes, the files you speak of are config.dos and autoexec.dos.  These
confused me at first because I thought just as you did. I put the driver
files in there. However, those files seem to be associated with the
PREVIOUS MS-DOS version (if one exists) prior to installation of Windows
98, NOT the CLI of Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1).  There is an option when
starting Windows 98 to boot to an earlier version of MS-DOS.  If this
earlier version is selected, then config.dos and autoexec.dos are read and
processed as config.sys and autoexec.bat for the DOS boot.  Otherwise, if
booting the Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1) CLI, these files are ignored and only
autoexec.bat and config.sys (if they exist) are processed.

Initially, I thought booting to the previous DOS install (in my case MS-DOS
6.2) would solve the USB problem, and I simply called up the older DOS
(MS-DOS 6.2) with the drivers using those *.dos files.  However, I was then
crippled by only being able to use a USB drive with FAT16 and a small
capacity.  I needed an MS-DOS 7.1 environment to give me FAT 32 hence the
config.sys "menu" system.

Terry (Tez)









On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/06/2018 12:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>
>> The title might suggest to topic is not vintage, but the reason I did
>> this myself was to facilitate classic computer disk imaging.
>>
>
> I'd think that something from ~20 years ago is indeed vintage.  (It's
> closer to the 25 year old requirement for cards to be vintage, than not.)
> Just not quite as vintage as some of the other topics on cctalk.
>
> I’ve recently given USB drive capability to the MS-DOS 7.1 environment in
>> a Windows 98SE computer I use for the purpose above. It was a bit of work
>> configuring the machine to ensure both the MS-DOS drivers and the Windows
>> 98SE drivers co-existed peacefully.
>>
>
> Intriguing.
>
> I figured that such was possible, but I've never tried.
>
> I'm no  Windows 98 guru (or MS-DOS guru for that matter) so it may not be
>> the most efficient or elegant of solutions.   However, it worked for me.
>> That being the case I thought I’d document what I did.
>>
>
> I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that were
> used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit F8 and
> chose command line during boot.
>
> Quick Google searches make me think that the MS-DOS mode files are named
> config.dos and autoexec.dos.  Then Windows will rename them when you select
> reboot into MS-DOS mode.
>
> Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do this.
>>
>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-M
>> S-DOS-and-Win98.htm
>>
>
> Thank you for sharing.
>
> I'm filing that away for future use.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Curious Marc  wrote:

> Thanks Terry, I need to get my DOS7.1/Win98 Dolch to speak USB, that will
> be helpful, particularly the DOS portion. I got my Win98 networked to Win7,
> it's not that hard *once you know* and works really well. You have to
> change one entry in the Win7 registry and add one package from the
> unofficial Win98 service pack. If I find my notes I'll post them here.
> Marc
>

 Thanks Marc,

I probably won't attempt networking again (I did once), as I don't have a
crossover cable and it's very convenient just to use the flash drive.  It
would be good to know how to do it though and I'm sure other would
appreciate that info.

Cheers

Terry

>
>