Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
Back to the original topic, someone suggested the memory would fit a DECstation
2100. They were right! I have done a short post about it
https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/04/memory-for-a-decstation-2100/. Thanks
for the suggestion :-)
Regards
Rob
On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:04 PM +0100, "Warner Losh via cctalk"
wrote:
On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:04 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 at 18:00, Warner Losh wrote:
> >
> > Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after
> my talk...
>
> I understand. I was the same, and went to the café for a couple of beers.
> :-)
>
> > Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80 column xterms due to 24x80
> 25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored the 25x80 column
> 3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe
> their existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th
> century which automated the looms of the 18th century... :)
>
> I did know about that story (this one:
> http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/10/23/80x25/ ) but there seems to be
> a lot of controversy around it...
>
Yea, it isn't as straight a line as I paint it...
>
> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/5629/why-did-80x25-become-the-text-monitor-standard
This explanation ignores that terminals like the VT52 pre-date the PC world
and were made for some custom gear that DEC engineers made that had no
relationship to NTSC. VT-52 was 1974 and had 80x24 lines. The Apple ][ was
also designed for the TV, but wasn't 24x80 because most TVs at the time
couldn't cope, but even it had custom CRTs and even on those custom CRTs
there was no 80 column mode standard. But the VT-52 was just a reflection
of the VT-50 which was 80x12 lines which was a reflection of the
Datapoint-2200 which was introduced in 1970 which was 80x12 lines as well.
DEC copied this, I've been told in classes in school ("the early terminals"
is all I recall now), but I have no good references between the dots here.
So the connection between 029 punch cards and terminals is clear... But
beyond that back to hollerith and the census to the 029 punch cards is less
clear...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340548
>
> And I always find I need to cut a lot of material to fit the time
> slot, in any case.
>
Ah, that's true... And the whole 80 column thing is pervasive today as a
standard for any reason...
Warner
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:04 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 at 18:00, Warner Losh wrote:
> >
> > Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after
> my talk...
>
> I understand. I was the same, and went to the café for a couple of beers.
> :-)
>
> > Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80 column xterms due to 24x80
> 25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored the 25x80 column
> 3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe
> their existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th
> century which automated the looms of the 18th century... :)
>
> I did know about that story (this one:
> http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/10/23/80x25/ ) but there seems to be
> a lot of controversy around it...
>
Yea, it isn't as straight a line as I paint it...
>
> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/5629/why-did-80x25-become-the-text-monitor-standard
This explanation ignores that terminals like the VT52 pre-date the PC world
and were made for some custom gear that DEC engineers made that had no
relationship to NTSC. VT-52 was 1974 and had 80x24 lines. The Apple ][ was
also designed for the TV, but wasn't 24x80 because most TVs at the time
couldn't cope, but even it had custom CRTs and even on those custom CRTs
there was no 80 column mode standard. But the VT-52 was just a reflection
of the VT-50 which was 80x12 lines which was a reflection of the
Datapoint-2200 which was introduced in 1970 which was 80x12 lines as well.
DEC copied this, I've been told in classes in school ("the early terminals"
is all I recall now), but I have no good references between the dots here.
So the connection between 029 punch cards and terminals is clear... But
beyond that back to hollerith and the census to the 029 punch cards is less
clear...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340548
>
> And I always find I need to cut a lot of material to fit the time
> slot, in any case.
>
Ah, that's true... And the whole 80 column thing is pervasive today as a
standard for any reason...
Warner
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 at 18:00, Warner Losh wrote: > > Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after my > talk... I understand. I was the same, and went to the café for a couple of beers. :-) > Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80 column xterms due to 24x80 25x80 > terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored the 25x80 column 3270s from > the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe their existence > to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th century which > automated the looms of the 18th century... :) I did know about that story (this one: http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/10/23/80x25/ ) but there seems to be a lot of controversy around it... https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/5629/why-did-80x25-become-the-text-monitor-standard https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340548 And I always find I need to cut a lot of material to fit the time slot, in any case. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 3:25 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 21:26, Warner Losh wrote: > >> > > Now I'm going to have to find that talk... :) I was at FOSDEM, but too > preoccupied with my own talk to go to other talks and run the room too full > gauntlet. > > I know. Your talk was directly before mine in the same room, and I > particularly enjoyed it, as I mentioned in my blog about the > conference. :-) > > This is the blog post: > https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69210.html > > And my speaker's notes, video links etc. are here: > https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69099.html Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after my talk... Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80 column xterms due to 24x80 25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored the 25x80 column 3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe their existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th century which automated the looms of the 18th century... :) Warner
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 21:26, Warner Losh wrote: >> > Now I'm going to have to find that talk... :) I was at FOSDEM, but too > preoccupied with my own talk to go to other talks and run the room too full > gauntlet. I know. Your talk was directly before mine in the same room, and I particularly enjoyed it, as I mentioned in my blog about the conference. :-) This is the blog post: https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69210.html And my speaker's notes, video links etc. are here: https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69099.html -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:28 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 17:24, Maciej W. Rozycki > wrote: > > > > BTW, nice talk at FOSDEM 2020, I was there. :) > > Oh wow! Thank you! > Now I'm going to have to find that talk... :) I was at FOSDEM, but too preoccupied with my own talk to go to other talks and run the room too full gauntlet. Warner
RE: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
> -Original Message- > From: Jon Elson > Sent: 01 April 2020 16:32 > To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory > > On 04/01/2020 02:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC. > > It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model > > 60, but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The > > part number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it > works in. > > Can anyone tell me where to find out? > > > Is it possible the board is defective? Does it have tantalum capacitors? A VERY > well-known failure mechanism of these is that they will work fine for years, but > if left unpowered for about two years, they will fail to a shorted condition when > powered on again. > > In surface mount style, they will be little yellowish blocks with a bar engraved > or printed on one end. > Locating the one or two bad ones is an exercise in major frustration! > It is entirely possible that they are defective. I tried using a DMM to measure the resistance across each of the capacitors. None showed a short, but it could be that I am unable to establish proper contact. I noticed some suggestions that they may be for a DECstation, I will dig mine out and see if they work there. Thanks Rob > Jon
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > I did have a quick hunt on the net for IPBs for any of these systems, but with > no luck. manx shows a few service manuals but they had the MS4x numbers. The look does match MS01-AA though as shown in Figure 5-9 on page 5-16 of "DECstation 5000 Model 100 Series Maintenance Guide", EK-PM32G-MG-003 (aka pm32gmg3.pdf). OTOH a single module from an MS01-AA pair is listed as FRU 57-30735-02 there, so it may not be compatible after all. I have several of MS01-AA modules, but all in remote locations, so I won't be able to check them anytime soon (given the current situation). Maciej
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On 04/01/2020 02:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC. It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60, but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in. Can anyone tell me where to find out? Is it possible the board is defective? Does it have tantalum capacitors? A VERY well-known failure mechanism of these is that they will work fine for years, but if left unpowered for about two years, they will fail to a shorted condition when powered on again. In surface mount style, they will be little yellowish blocks with a bar engraved or printed on one end. Locating the one or two bad ones is an exercise in major frustration! Jon
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 16:13, Rob Jarratt wrote: This is the listing: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/223624600040 My VLC has a number of memory modules but they do not have any DEC part number on them at all. The board has "PC72N-9GG" and "JAPAN MH1M36ADJ-8" printed on it. One side has 8 chips each marked M5M44400AJ 221SK1K-7. Note that unlike the photo, there is no "horizontal" chip in the middle. The other side has four chips each marked M5M41000BJ 224GE04-8. (I think it's four ... I've just put the machine back :-)) A nearby DECdirect has: MS40-BA: VLC 8MB upgrade MS44L-BA: VS4000-60 8MB upgrade MS44-DA: VS4000-60 32MB upgrade MS44L-BC: VS4000-90 16MB upgrade MS44-DC: VS4000-90 64MB upgrade So even that doesn't help (since you really want the 2-5-2 part number, as that's what you'll usually find on the module). I did have a quick hunt on the net for IPBs for any of these systems, but with no luck. manx shows a few service manuals but they had the MS4x numbers. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 17:24, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > BTW, nice talk at FOSDEM 2020, I was there. :) Oh wow! Thank you! *Blushes* :-) -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > The -12 on the chip part number implies 120ns RAM to me. That is slow > by modern standards -- before EDO came in, PCs tended to take 70ns, > 80ns was slow and 60ns was fast. 120ns would be quick enough for a > 4000/60 or 4000/90, marginal for a 4000/90a and too slow for a VLC or > 4000/96. Also the Mitsubishi 41000 is a 1-Mibit part, so the module is 1MiB (or 2MiB if double-sided). So you just need to figure out which DEC systems used such SIMMs. If 2MiB, then DECstation 2100/3100 might be a candidate and these would be MS01-AA, also working with DECstation 5000/1xx and Personal DECstation 5000/xx systems (and probably some VAX machines too). BTW, nice talk at FOSDEM 2020, I was there. :) Maciej
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 16:13, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > This is the listing: > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/223624600040 That is... not very informative. :-( I also note that the listing just says VS4000 and does not specify a model. It could be one of 5 different models, all of different speeds: a 4000/60, 90, 90A, 96 or VLC. Could you just put the DIMM onto a flatbed scanner or something? The -12 on the chip part number implies 120ns RAM to me. That is slow by modern standards -- before EDO came in, PCs tended to take 70ns, 80ns was slow and 60ns was fast. 120ns would be quick enough for a 4000/60 or 4000/90, marginal for a 4000/90a and too slow for a VLC or 4000/96. Speeds from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAXstation#VAXstation_4000_Model_VLC -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
RE: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
This is the listing: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/223624600040 Regards Rob > -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via > cctalk > Sent: 01 April 2020 14:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory > > On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:08, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC. > > It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model > > 60, but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The > > part number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it > works in. > > Can anyone tell me where to find out? > > Your posts are reminding me that I must set up and test my 3 (!) 4000VLCs. I > really regret giving away my 4000/60 now. It's lost somewhere inside Red Hat > Farnborough. :'( > > I think the 4000VLC takes 80ns FP-mode DRAM with parity. > > Something like this: > https://www.itechdevices.co.uk/ms40-ba-hp-64mb-ecc-mem-4-x-16mb- > simms.html > (N.B. I think they don't know the difference between parity RAM and ECC > RAM.) > > Can you give us as much identifying info on your DIMMs as you've got? > Pictures on IMGUR or something would be helpful so long as they are high- > enough resolution to read the text. > -- > Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:08, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC. > It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60, > but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part > number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in. > Can anyone tell me where to find out? Your posts are reminding me that I must set up and test my 3 (!) 4000VLCs. I really regret giving away my 4000/60 now. It's lost somewhere inside Red Hat Farnborough. :'( I think the 4000VLC takes 80ns FP-mode DRAM with parity. Something like this: https://www.itechdevices.co.uk/ms40-ba-hp-64mb-ecc-mem-4-x-16mb-simms.html (N.B. I think they don't know the difference between parity RAM and ECC RAM.) Can you give us as much identifying info on your DIMMs as you've got? Pictures on IMGUR or something would be helpful so long as they are high-enough resolution to read the text. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
RE: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
> -Original Message- > From: Paul Koning > Sent: 01 April 2020 14:27 > To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; Robert Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory > > Does it have an M number on the handle? Those shows up in the option- > module list, but 2-5-2 part numbers don't. > Unfortunately not. Regards Rob > paul > > > On Apr 1, 2020, at 3:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC. > > It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model > > 60, but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The > > part number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it > works in. > > Can anyone tell me where to find out? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob > >
Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
Does it have an M number on the handle? Those shows up in the option-module list, but 2-5-2 part numbers don't. paul > On Apr 1, 2020, at 3:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC. > It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60, > but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part > number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in. > Can anyone tell me where to find out? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob >
