Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
I may be able to help. I have had mixed success reading QIC tapes. I have encountered two problems reading them. 1. Band failure. There is a band inside the cartridge that keeps the tape taut when drive advances and rewinds the tape. These bands like to fail. I have found replacements that seem to work. 2. Sticky tapes. I have had a lot of problems with the tape sticking and binding as it goes around posts inside the cartridge. I have yet to find a satisfactory way around this. If your tape has the second problem, I can't read it, but may be able to if it doesn't. alan On 10/4/20 9:58 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: Hi Chen, I just tried the tape drive and sadly it too has the capacitor leakage problem like the CDROM drive. So sorry but I cannot help reading your tapes. Regards Tom Hunter On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 2:05 PM Chenshyh Tsay via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: Dear Tom, Does your Sun workstation is functional and read QIC -150 cartridge? I have some old 3M 6150 cartridges that was created by Sun Sparc workstation in 2000. One those cartridges, I have some my personal files I like to get them. If you can you read those cartridges, I can pay some money for you? Chen Tsay
Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
Hi Chen, I just tried the tape drive and sadly it too has the capacitor leakage problem like the CDROM drive. So sorry but I cannot help reading your tapes. Regards Tom Hunter On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 2:05 PM Chenshyh Tsay via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Dear Tom, > > Does your Sun workstation is functional and read QIC -150 cartridge? > I have some old 3M 6150 cartridges that was created by Sun Sparc > workstation in 2000. > One those cartridges, I have some my personal files I like to get them. > If you can you read those cartridges, I can pay some money for you? > > Chen Tsay > > > > > > >
Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
On Tue, 1 Sep 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This and the rest of what you describe sounds quite like the damaged > caused by electrolyte leaking from failed capacitors. This is probably > the most common cause of failure in electronics after they get to 2-3 > decades old. > > There was one particular time when this happened prematurely: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague There was the issue with the quaternary ammonium salt system earlier on too, e.g. with Chemi-Con SXF parts and several other ones from various reputable manufacturers in early 1990s. Maciej
Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
Hi Liam, You are probably quite correct. In another forum someone came up with the same explanation for my "rat problem". Here is what he wrote: "Were there any electrolytic capacitors in the region of the corrosion? When an electrolytic capacitor leaks (even slightly) the electrolyte often contaminates the solder joint and oxidises it as you describe. The appearance will be dull and the melting point will be significantly higher than that of normal tin-lead joints. When heated, it will emit a "unique" smell that smells like fish or urine. This is often repairable but it's quite a bit of effort. Worthwhile for high-value assemblies I suppose." and: "With regards to small electrolytic capacitor leakage, I very rarely see any "wetness". The leakage takes place very slowly over many years and is almost like a capillary effect along the pads and into the board rather than a liquid spill. One normally only sees the damage (oxidation). It usually discolours the pads of the electrolytic cap and then travels into other nearby pads too. It often eats up the solder mask very quickly, but it takes longer for it to eat up the copper tracks. If your board is multi-layered, that is a very unfortunate situation indeed! Attached is a photo of what capacitor leakage typically looks like (note in this photo the offending caps have been removed and their pads cleaned)." I cannot include the photo as this mailing list doesn't allow photos. I think both you and the guy I quoted are spot on and this explanation is much more rational. I was misled by the smell when trying to reflow some of the pads. So the "rat mystery" is resolved. All I need now is a replacement drive. :-) Thanks Tom Hunter On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:15 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 at 15:33, Tom Hunter via cctalk > wrote: > > About 70% of the PCB had solder joints that were nice and shiny like > brand > > new. The remaining section near the front of the drive was quite badly > > corroded and it also looked like there was some liquid spilled over that > > section of the PCB (component side). > > This and the rest of what you describe sounds quite like the damaged > caused by electrolyte leaking from failed capacitors. This is probably > the most common cause of failure in electronics after they get to 2-3 > decades old. > > There was one particular time when this happened prematurely: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague > > But it is a general problem with almost all capacitors. > > I could be wrong but this seems more likely than rodent pee... > > Personally, I have failed caps in 3 Apple Macs -- one PowerPC and two > MC68000. All are awaiting repair. > > -- > Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 >
Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 at 15:33, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > About 70% of the PCB had solder joints that were nice and shiny like brand > new. The remaining section near the front of the drive was quite badly > corroded and it also looked like there was some liquid spilled over that > section of the PCB (component side). This and the rest of what you describe sounds quite like the damaged caused by electrolyte leaking from failed capacitors. This is probably the most common cause of failure in electronics after they get to 2-3 decades old. There was one particular time when this happened prematurely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague But it is a general problem with almost all capacitors. I could be wrong but this seems more likely than rodent pee... Personally, I have failed caps in 3 Apple Macs -- one PowerPC and two MC68000. All are awaiting repair. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
On 8/31/2020 7:25 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: Not funny if your prized treasures fall victim to it. :-( A friend had Western Dynex 10mb drives years ago which were hard to come by. Equivalent to the RL02's. He had a test system which could run Microdata Reality as a test station for debugging hardware. As a matter of course, he'd also had a mouse which he took to feeding peanuts to and it would come out and beg. One morning he turned on the drive, it loaded, but wouldn't come ready. Eventually pulled it out and got ready to see what had failed and there were no obvious electrical faults. On looking closer if you recall on those drives they had very fine 4 wire sleeved wiring to the heads. Used some flex wire shieldng, but most of the length was in clear vinyl small tubing. All 4 of them were neatly clipped off and in the bottom of the drive. Set a rat trap that night, goodby mouse. I was sad, but that bit cost about $1,500 or so to fix. thankks jim
Fwd: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
-- Forwarded message - From: Tom Hunter Date: Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? To: Chuck Guzis Thanks Chuck, Unfortunately it is well past cleaning. The lead/tin alloy has corroded into a hard oxide with very high melting temperature. Lead oxide melts at 800+ degrees C and tin oxide at 1300+ degrees C. This is well past the 300 degrees C a soldering iron produces. Most importantly the copper pads below and some of the tracks are gone completely. About 70% of the board is pristine. Only the section which has been exposed to the liquid is corroded. I can't say for sure that it is rodent urine, but when I tried to reflow the corroded solder joints it faintly smelled like my firewood where rats nested one winter. Of course there is no chance for a rat or even the tiniest mouse to get into a fully assembled Sun/Sony CDROM with the affected PCB side facing down and somehow urinate upwards towards the PCB. As the drive was never before disassembled it could only have happened during manufacturing. 20 years ago when I put the drive and other SPARX LX gear into my display cabinet I could have easily found a replacement. Now it won't be easy. The sad thing about it is that everything was pristine when I put it in my cabinet. Cheers Tom Hunter On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 1:41 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/31/20 7:25 PM, Tom Hunter wrote: > > Not funny if your prized treasures fall victim to it. > > > > I found that oven cleaner can loosen layers of the stuff without too > much damage to the electronics underneath. Soap and water won't cut it. > > --Chuck > >
Re: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
Not fun at all - :-( Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: d...@doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net --- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 12:25 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Not funny if your prized treasures fall victim to it. > > :-( > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 10:11 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 8/31/20 6:21 PM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > >> I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the > Sony > > >> factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next > > >> morning > > >> the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. > > > > > > I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before > > > have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..." > > > > Wait'll you get one where several generations of mice have raised their > > young. It ain't just pee... > > > > --Chuck > > >
Re: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
Not funny if your prized treasures fall victim to it. :-( On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 10:11 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 8/31/20 6:21 PM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > >> I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony > >> factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next > >> morning > >> the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. > > > > I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before > > have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..." > > Wait'll you get one where several generations of mice have raised their > young. It ain't just pee... > > --Chuck >
Re: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
On 8/31/20 6:21 PM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony >> factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next >> morning >> the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. > > I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before > have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..." Wait'll you get one where several generations of mice have raised their young. It ain't just pee... --Chuck
Re: Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 9:22 PM Steven M Jones via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony > > factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next > morning > > the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. > > I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before > have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..." > > Scientific name: rattus factorus b
Factory Rodent Urine, was Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
On 8/30/20 6:32 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next morning the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. I've heard of "factory rust" and "factory oil leaks," but never before have I run across the concept of "factory rodent urine..."
Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
I removed the PCB off the CDROM drive and on closer inspection noticed a region of substantial corrosion of solder joints on the component side. About 70% of the PCB had solder joints that were nice and shiny like brand new. The remaining section near the front of the drive was quite badly corroded and it also looked like there was some liquid spilled over that section of the PCB (component side). When I tried to re-solder a few of the worst affected components they just fell off and the copper track below them was gone. When heating the solder joint the solder wouldn't melt it was just pure led & tin oxide. Interestingly as I heated the solder joint there was a faint smell like rat urine. I now wonder if 25+ years ago during production of the CDROM at the Sony factory some rodent relieved itself over one or more PCBs and next morning the PCB got assembled into a CDROM drive. It worked for a few years before I put it away in my display cabinet. Slowly over the next 20 years the uric acid corroded solder and tracks. This could not have happened after the assembly because of the small opening in the unit where the caddy is inserted and also because the component side is facing down. Anyway this is the sad end of my Sun CDROM drive. :-( Tom Hunter On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 1:23 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > I have now installed an old Adaptec AHA-2940 Ultra SCSI card with > micro-SCSI interface in a Windows XP PC. Windows successfully installed the > device driver and sees the Sony drive. If I attempt to read from the drive > I get a generic I/O error. > So it appears that the drives SCSI interface, positioning and eject > circuitry is working but there is maybe a problem in the optical circuitry > or the LASER optics. > Thanks for all the feedback. > Tom Hunter > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 9:58 AM r.stricklin via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> On Aug 28, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: >> >> > My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having >> problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) >> in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in >> 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven’t >> investigated why. >> >> 95% likelihood of faulty miniature electrolytics. >> >> ok >> bear. >> >> -- >> until further notice >> >>
Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
I have now installed an old Adaptec AHA-2940 Ultra SCSI card with micro-SCSI interface in a Windows XP PC. Windows successfully installed the device driver and sees the Sony drive. If I attempt to read from the drive I get a generic I/O error. So it appears that the drives SCSI interface, positioning and eject circuitry is working but there is maybe a problem in the optical circuitry or the LASER optics. Thanks for all the feedback. Tom Hunter On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 9:58 AM r.stricklin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Aug 28, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having > problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) > in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in > 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven’t > investigated why. > > 95% likelihood of faulty miniature electrolytics. > > ok > bear. > > -- > until further notice > >
Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
On Aug 28, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having > problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) > in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in > 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven’t > investigated why. 95% likelihood of faulty miniature electrolytics. ok bear. -- until further notice
Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
My collection is primarily sun4c and sun4m machines. I have been having problems with the CD drives that I have been acquiring (purchase or rescue) in the last year or so. 4-5 drives, none worked. It has all been drives in 411 cases or going into them, no failures with internal drives. Haven’t investigated why. > On Aug 28, 2020, at 14:22, Tom Hunter via cctech > wrote: > > About 20 years ago I rescued a fully working Sun SPARCstation LX with CDROM > and QIC-150 tape drive - all 3 in lunchbox format - plus monitor when we > moved office and management decided they no longer wanted/needed it. > > Shortly after I have installed an early version of NetBSD (1.3.3) from the > CDROM drive. I played with it for a few days and then stored the entire > system in a museum grade glass display cabinet. This is indoors with > minimal dust and benign temperatures between 18 degrees C to about 28 > degrees C (typical room temperatures here in Perth in Western Australia > unless you run the air conditioner). > > > > Now retired I took the stack of "lunch-boxes" and the CRT monitor out of > the display cabinet and powered it up. After 20 years no smoke came out but > the system didn't boot but reported trouble with the NVRAM setting. I still > could start NetBSD using a "boot disk" command. I googled the problem and > bought and installed a replacement TIMEKEEPER chip (M48T08-100). After > defaulting the settings and setting the MAC address and machine ID it was > happy and booted from disk without intervention. In NetBSD I then set the > date and time and all was good. > > > > Then I decided to upgrade to the latest version of the SPARC version of > NetBSD 9.0. I downloaded and burned the ISO image to CD. Dropped it into a > CD caddy and inserted it into the CDROM drive (SUN Model 411 - really a > Sony CDU-8012 3.1e). I did a "probe-scsi-all" and it found both the hard > drive and the CDROM (target 6 unit 0). > > > > Now comes the problem - if it try to run from it via "boot cdrom" it > doesn't even access the CDROM drive - the LED doesn't turn on unlike when > you do the "probe-scsi-all". > > > > The "cdrom" alias is really: "/iommu/sbus/espdma@4,840/esp@4 > ,880/sd@6,0:d". > > > > The "disk" alias is really: > "/iommu/sbus/espdma@4,840/esp@4,880/sd@3,0" > > > > > The "@3" versus the "@6" are the SCSI IDs of the disk drive versus the > CDROM. I don't know what the trailing bits mean. I tried cdrom aliases from > "sd@6,0:0" to "sd@6,0:f" and all report: > > > > Can't read disk label > > Can't open disk label package > > Can't open boot device > > > > The LED doesn't blink even once unless I remove and re-insert the caddy > with the CDROM media or if I do a "probe-scsi" or "probe-scsi-all". > > > > I tried original Sun Solaris 2.4 installation media with the exact same > result/symptoms. > > > > I also tried to access the CDROM from NetBSD using "cat /dev/cd0a" but the > drive's LED didn't blink and I got an obscure error message. > > > > The Boot ROM revision is reported as 2.9. The system was bought about 1985 > or 1986 and has seen very little use. > > > > I searched google without success. Maybe I used the wrong search terms or > the equipment is just getting too old and FAQs have disappeared. > > > > What would cause the CDROM boot problem? > > > > There is a chance that the actual Sony drive died. I partially disassembled > it hoping to find dust stuck on the LASER optics but it was nice and clean. > The positioning and ejection mechanisms work just fine. The whole system > was working before I put it into my relatively dust proof glass display > cabinet. > > > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter
Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
On Fri, 28 Aug 2020 at 17:43, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > About 20 years ago I rescued a fully working Sun SPARCstation LX with CDROM > and QIC-150 tape drive - all 3 in lunchbox format - plus monitor when we > moved office and management decided they no longer wanted/needed it. > > Shortly after I have installed an early version of NetBSD (1.3.3) from the > CDROM drive. I played with it for a few days and then stored the entire > system in a museum grade glass display cabinet. This is indoors with > minimal dust and benign temperatures between 18 degrees C to about 28 > degrees C (typical room temperatures here in Perth in Western Australia > unless you run the air conditioner). > > Now retired I took the stack of "lunch-boxes" and the CRT monitor out of > the display cabinet and powered it up. After 20 years no smoke came out but > the system didn't boot but reported trouble with the NVRAM setting. I still > could start NetBSD using a "boot disk" command. I googled the problem and > bought and installed a replacement TIMEKEEPER chip (M48T08-100). After > defaulting the settings and setting the MAC address and machine ID it was > happy and booted from disk without intervention. In NetBSD I then set the > date and time and all was good. > > Then I decided to upgrade to the latest version of the SPARC version of > NetBSD 9.0. I downloaded and burned the ISO image to CD. Dropped it into a > CD caddy and inserted it into the CDROM drive (SUN Model 411 - really a > Sony CDU-8012 3.1e). I did a "probe-scsi-all" and it found both the hard > drive and the CDROM (target 6 unit 0). I have nothing useful to add on the CDROM, but regarding upgrading NetBSD, one option would be to setup a netboot server and upgrade that way. Once setup it also provides an easy way to boot any sparc box with a working network interface (handy for when a Quantum 105 has a sticktion day :). David
Re: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM?
On 8/28/2020 9:42 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: Now comes the problem - if it try to run from it via "boot cdrom" it doesn't even access the CDROM drive - the LED doesn't turn on unlike when you do the "probe-scsi-all". Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter There's a problem if you are using a Sun branded CD drive. I think they were initially source by Sony, but could be wrong. If you used writable CD's in the day, you would hit a problem because sun mastered their mask CDs with a difference in the default sector size. They and the Sony drive are actually in error, and the writable CD media is conformant to the standards, but Sun left it in there. For over a year people ran around like crazy trying to figure it out, and most just bought the Sun branded drive. The end result was that you wanted a Plextor or Toshiba 3401 or maybe 3501 SCSI drive. They take the order and respond so the boot code doesn't fail till the blocksize is set to I think 2k. If you can find one (unfortunately I've got two in the cabinet here for this reason), you might try that. Those with better sources / memories can correct, I'm relating a problem I recall with CDROM boot from 30 years ago, and I've not gotten my pile out yet to try it again myself. Only thing in your description that doesn't fit my memory that worries me a bit is the failure of your 2.4 media. If it's the Sun mask mastered media that doesn't fit my problem symptoms. Thanks jim
