RE: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
As for expectations for Bill, my son made a similar journey , by bus, from Oxford to Gatwick, so a bit of M40 then 75% of the M25 this morning. He allowed 2 hours extra and is cross because for once he arrived on schedule and had two extra hours at Gatwick to kill. Dave > -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via > cctalk > Sent: 08 July 2019 14:49 > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 14:53, Dave Wade wrote: > > > > I wouldn't like to comment on relationships, but they appeal to very > different audiences. There is now some signage at the main gate but its > minimal... > > OK, noted. > > So apart from my comment that BP depended on the revenues and draw of > TNMOC, and that actually BP is doing fine, you have no other corrections to > make? > > That's very interesting. > > BTW I won't quote you, this isn't leading up to anything anywhere or > anything like that. Purely trying to set reasonable (i.e., low) expectations > for > Bill. > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 14:53, Dave Wade wrote: > > I wouldn't like to comment on relationships, but they appeal to very > different audiences. There is now some signage at the main gate but its > minimal... OK, noted. So apart from my comment that BP depended on the revenues and draw of TNMOC, and that actually BP is doing fine, you have no other corrections to make? That's very interesting. BTW I won't quote you, this isn't leading up to anything anywhere or anything like that. Purely trying to set reasonable (i.e., low) expectations for Bill. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
RE: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
Liam, As one of the TNMOC Members (roughly equivalent to "friends" in other museums) I don't think Bletchley Park would collapse without TNMOC. It has huge income from renting out buildings other than those TNMOC use. It has many visitors who are interesting in the place and the story and the tearoom who don't care about technology. In deference to them it has removed most of the technology, (and paid to move the Bombe but not for the room re-fit) It has basically adopted the "Tea Room" strategy used by the National Trust in the UK. Keep your visitors on-site after their visit by offering a very nice expensive and profitable tea room. It also won considerable lottery funding and is pretty affluent:- https://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?subid=0®id=1012743 in contrast TNMOC has received no government money (all donations welcome), receives fewer visitors, and has to be careful with its money I wouldn't like to comment on relationships, but they appeal to very different audiences. There is now some signage at the main gate but its minimal... Dave > -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via > cctalk > Sent: 08 July 2019 12:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 at 11:40, Bill Degnan via cctech > wrote: > > > > Refined question - When would I have to depart the museum in order to > > travel by rental car (driving legal speeds) from Bletchley to Gatwick > > Airport in time for a 4PM flight on 7/11 (A Thursday)? > > To echo what others have said: > > * you will have around an hour and a half at the museum. I would say that's > about the right ballpark. > > * there are 2 _entirely separate_ museums on the Bletchley Park site: > ** Bletchley Park: https://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/ > ** The National Museum of Computing: https://www.tnmoc.org/ > > The BP Museum is just a museum and this largely devoid of anything of tech > interest. > > TNMOC has the interesting technology, such as Colossus and so on. It > happens to be situated on the site of BP and in some BP huts and buildings. > > The history in very brief and AIUI is this: > > All the wartime activity at BP was classified for ~50y after the war. > Apart from a few nerds -- i.e. us lot -- nobody knew or cared what happened. > Alan Turing was some boring dead mathematician. The park and mansion was > of no interest or significance to anyone but someone owned it so it didn't get > demolished, but most of the land was taken for a nearby housing estate. A > "project" in American English, I think? The buildings were left to rot. > > Then the Enigma project etc. got declassified, computing got old enough and > mainstream enough that cultural awareness of it seeped into the > mainstream. The handful of surviving codebreakers got recognition, awards > etc. People starting trying to reconstruct the machines used. > Much of this effort was onsite because the huts were still there, derelict and > so cheap. > > This developed into a museum of computing. That in turn developed into > TNMOC. > > Meantime, as historical awareness grew, the mansion house got bought for > the nation, preserved and turned into a museum. > > People started coming. But while they were interested in the site and the > buildings, most of them were interested in the machines and the rebuild > project and the nerd stuff. > > My impression is that the BP museum people were surprised by this, having > thought all the actual nerd stuff was of niche interest and that the _site_ > was > the interesting bit. > > But what grew into TNMOC was the big tourist attraction. > > So the 2 entities are _rivals_. My impression is that the BP people resent > TNMOC and the nerds, but they need the rent, the income, the tourist draw. > Without TNMOC the BP museum would collapse. But that means they need > those horrible smelly nerds and their nasty machines, and the weirdoes who > want to see them, instead of decent clean-living upright folk who respect > British Military History and want to know about the noble heroic military > effort. > > The fact that the nerds know that Turing was gay, and convicted as a criminal > for it, and was hounded to death by the Establishment instead of being > lauded as a war hero -- the story the BP museum would rather tell -- is even > worse. > > Result? The publicity material, signposts etc. doesn't mention TNMOC. > The ticket doesn't cover TNMOC. When I asked about TNMOC I got the > impression that the salesperson didn't want to tell me and wanted to > pretend it didn't exist
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
> > To echo what others have said: > > * you will have around an hour and a half at the museum. I would say > that's about the right ballpark. > > * there are 2 _entirely separate_ museums on the Bletchley Park site: > ** Bletchley Park: https://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/ > ** The National Museum of Computing: https://www.tnmoc.org/ > > The BP Museum is just a museum and this largely devoid of anything of > tech interest. > > TNMOC has the interesting technology, such as Colossus and so on. It > happens to be situated on the site of BP and in some BP huts and > buildings. > I have some hand written code for the Elliot 802 and I spoke with Peter Onion who runs the Elliot 803 machine, he is going to meet me there. So all I need is time enough for that and my focus is the Elliot 802, so I can drop off my code in person. Seems like a lot but I just want to be sure to see the Elliot 803 while I am around. Bill >
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 at 11:40, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > > Refined question - When would I have to depart the museum in order to > travel by rental car (driving legal speeds) from Bletchley to Gatwick > Airport in time for a 4PM flight on 7/11 (A Thursday)? To echo what others have said: * you will have around an hour and a half at the museum. I would say that's about the right ballpark. * there are 2 _entirely separate_ museums on the Bletchley Park site: ** Bletchley Park: https://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/ ** The National Museum of Computing: https://www.tnmoc.org/ The BP Museum is just a museum and this largely devoid of anything of tech interest. TNMOC has the interesting technology, such as Colossus and so on. It happens to be situated on the site of BP and in some BP huts and buildings. The history in very brief and AIUI is this: All the wartime activity at BP was classified for ~50y after the war. Apart from a few nerds -- i.e. us lot -- nobody knew or cared what happened. Alan Turing was some boring dead mathematician. The park and mansion was of no interest or significance to anyone but someone owned it so it didn't get demolished, but most of the land was taken for a nearby housing estate. A "project" in American English, I think? The buildings were left to rot. Then the Enigma project etc. got declassified, computing got old enough and mainstream enough that cultural awareness of it seeped into the mainstream. The handful of surviving codebreakers got recognition, awards etc. People starting trying to reconstruct the machines used. Much of this effort was onsite because the huts were still there, derelict and so cheap. This developed into a museum of computing. That in turn developed into TNMOC. Meantime, as historical awareness grew, the mansion house got bought for the nation, preserved and turned into a museum. People started coming. But while they were interested in the site and the buildings, most of them were interested in the machines and the rebuild project and the nerd stuff. My impression is that the BP museum people were surprised by this, having thought all the actual nerd stuff was of niche interest and that the _site_ was the interesting bit. But what grew into TNMOC was the big tourist attraction. So the 2 entities are _rivals_. My impression is that the BP people resent TNMOC and the nerds, but they need the rent, the income, the tourist draw. Without TNMOC the BP museum would collapse. But that means they need those horrible smelly nerds and their nasty machines, and the weirdoes who want to see them, instead of decent clean-living upright folk who respect British Military History and want to know about the noble heroic military effort. The fact that the nerds know that Turing was gay, and convicted as a criminal for it, and was hounded to death by the Establishment instead of being lauded as a war hero -- the story the BP museum would rather tell -- is even worse. Result? The publicity material, signposts etc. doesn't mention TNMOC. The ticket doesn't cover TNMOC. When I asked about TNMOC I got the impression that the salesperson didn't want to tell me and wanted to pretend it didn't exist. You need 2 tickets. You need to visit 2 separate sites, located a few yards apart, and you can't move from one to the other. You could spent 30min having a very quick hustle around the park and the mansion and their huts, then go get a TNMOC ticket and spend an hour having a very quick hustle around TNMOC seeing all the lovely old kit and mourning that you don't have time to read any labels, play with anything, and that if it's like it was when I was there 7-8y ago, that it's sad that so much kit isn't connected or running or restored because they don't have enough volunteers. Then you'll have to run for your car after a very hasty and unsatisfactory 90 minute visit and if there are any bad traffic problems you might still miss your plane. :-( British roads are small, narrow and congested. Our traffic is horrifyingly bad. 2½h to do 90 miles is somewhat optimistic. Saying that, I think you'll still be glad you did it and would be sad to miss it. > I will have left > the airport originally on an extended layover between flights, I assume I > on my return I will have to go through security all over again. Yes. Nowhere else has flights like American flights. Yours are like a bus service to us: walk in, pay, fly. I've only done it once and it was amazing. All flights in and out of Britain are full international flights. You need to be there and getting in the line for check-in 2 hours before scheduled departure, regardless of flight delays. You will have to do full security, passport control, immigration etc. Expect to be treated like you just got home to the USA after a decade in Moscow and you've grown a beard and acquired a strong Russian accent. So allow at least half an hour to park up, return your hire car, find the right terminal, etc. So if your flight is
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
On Sat, Jul 6, 2019, 3:57 PM Peter Corlett via cctech wrote: > On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 12:54:28PM +0300, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > > Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have > a > > 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at > > bletchley park about an hour north. [...] > > It's actually *two* hours north; three if you want to add a safety margin. > Remember the old saying: 200 years is a long time in the USA, and 200 > miles is > a long way in the UK. > > I advise against driving, especially if you're unfamiliar with British > roads. > It will be both slower and more expensive than the train for this > particular > route because London is in the way. Petrol works out at over $7/gal, and > you > get to navigate the infamous M25 motorway-cum-car-park. It's debatable > whether > it will be more convenient. > > There are railway stations at both Gatwick and Bletchley. Bletchley Park > is a 3 > minute walk from the station. > > If you do the standard tourist thing at the ticket office/machine, they'll > screw you to the tune of £42.10 for an "any permitted" return ticket, which > sends you on the Gatwick Express to the wrong side of London, the Tube back > across London, and then another train to Bletchley. More changes between > more > modes of transport mean more risk of things going wrong. > > A "via Ken[sington] Olympia" ticket is £28.80, which would be my preferred > route anyway. Gatwick to Clapham Junction, a quick change to the next > platform, > then onward to Bletchley. You do not need to stop at or change at Olympia. > > Both train routes take about two hours; the Olympia one is less frequent > and > slower by a few minutes according to the optimistic routing models which > think > the Tube pays any sort of attention to the timetable, but tends to be > faster in > practice. You might consider buying the more expensive "any permitted" > ticket > anyway as insurance to give you more flexibility if things go wrong. > > Have a play with https://traintimes.org.uk/GTW/BLY, but if you don't > change the > date, it won't show you Olympia routes because they've closed the West > London > Line this weekend, ostensibly for maintenance, but possibly just spite. > This > won't be the case on Thursday when you're travelling. > I believe getting to a hotel in the Bletchely area just before midnight on Weds from Gatwick will not be so bad due to the later time/less traffic. The issue it the return. Refined question - When would I have to depart the museum in order to travel by rental car (driving legal speeds) from Bletchley to Gatwick Airport in time for a 4PM flight on 7/11 (A Thursday)? I will have left the airport originally on an extended layover between flights, I assume I on my return I will have to go through security all over again. I greatly appreciate all of the advice given. I really don't like the idea of pushing it given the times involved but I have the enthusiasm to try if possible. Bill
RE: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
Jack, Note that Bletchley Park is now split into two. (don't ask) and Colossus and the Bombe re-build are now at TNMOC not at Bletchley Park. Its on the same site but two Museums. Dave > -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jack Harper via > cctalk > Sent: 06 July 2019 17:31 > To: cct...@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > > Bill, > > If I were on such a tight schedule, I would as you say rent a car, but one-way, > from Gatwick - drive that night late to a hotel in Milton Keynes about five > miles north of Bletchley. > > About 90 miles Gatwick to Milton Keyes - two hours or so late at night. > > Avis has a return site at Milton Keynes. Leave the car there at Avis. > > Thursday morning, I would take a taxi to Bletchley Park - the place opens > 0930. > > Spend 1.5 hours or some such max at Bletchley - Train back to Gatwick. > > I know that you can easily get to London Euston from Bletchley - trains run > about every twenty minutes I recall, but I do not know how to get to Gatwick > from Euston - figure that out. > > > It would all be very tight, but Bletchley Park is an amazing place to see and > only 1.5 hours there would be better than nothing. > > Here is a snap I took of the "Mansion" when there 15 years > ago: http://frobenius.com/bletchley/bl012.jpg > > If I could see only a couple of things: Hut 8 where Turing used to > do his thing and, of course, the Colossus rebuild. > > It is easy to spend two days there, which I did 2004. > > > Best, > > Jack Harper > Evergreen, Colorado USA > > > > > > > > > At 03:54 AM 7/6/2019, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > >Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I > >have a > >17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at > >bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the > >airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels > >with > >24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which > >needed for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not > >sure how efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some > >buffer for unknowns Thanks in advance > > > >Bill > > -- > Jack Harper, President > Secure Outcomes Inc > 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 > Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA > > 303.670.8375 > 303.670.3750 (fax) > > http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info.
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
Hello Bill, On 06/07/2019 10:54, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I > have a 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer > museum at bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a > car from the airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There > are a few hotels with 24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England > is 17 hours, 8 of which needed for sleep, plus travel to and from > the airport and museum. Not sure how efficient the car rental > return process is, etc. Need some buffer for unknowns It may be too difficult to confidently get there and back in the time you have. You could try the Science Museum in London instead: http://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/search/categories/computing-&-data-processing https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Gatwick+Airport,+Horley,+Gatwick+RH6+0RD/Science+Museum,+Exhibition+Rd,+South+Kensington,+London+SW7+2DD/@51.3216345,-0.3493122,11z Best wishes Lorry --- https://techtinkering.com - Vintage Computers and Programming https://youtube.com/techtinkering - Lots of CP/M Videos https://techtinkering.com/articles/mission-impossible-on-cpm/
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
Wow I’m jealous, I lost out this week, it was a choice between Bletchley and Selfriges. My kids wanted to shop on Oxford street and didn’t want to take a train for a few hours to Bletchley which would make dad happy. They wanted a something a short walk or tube ride from our hotel near Hyde park where they could drive me crazy and lighten my wallet. Cheers, Corey corey cohen uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Mark Linimon via cctech > wrote: > >> On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 02:06:12PM +0200, Peter Corlett via cctech wrote: >> they've closed the West London Line this weekend, ostensibly for >> maintenance, but possibly just spite. > > Thanks. I needed a laugh today. > > mcl
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
Bill, If I were on such a tight schedule, I would as you say rent a car, but one-way, from Gatwick - drive that night late to a hotel in Milton Keynes about five miles north of Bletchley. About 90 miles Gatwick to Milton Keyes - two hours or so late at night. Avis has a return site at Milton Keynes. Leave the car there at Avis. Thursday morning, I would take a taxi to Bletchley Park - the place opens 0930. Spend 1.5 hours or some such max at Bletchley - Train back to Gatwick. I know that you can easily get to London Euston from Bletchley - trains run about every twenty minutes I recall, but I do not know how to get to Gatwick from Euston - figure that out. It would all be very tight, but Bletchley Park is an amazing place to see and only 1.5 hours there would be better than nothing. Here is a snap I took of the "Mansion" when there 15 years ago: http://frobenius.com/bletchley/bl012.jpg If I could see only a couple of things: Hut 8 where Turing used to do his thing and, of course, the Colossus rebuild. It is easy to spend two days there, which I did 2004. Best, Jack Harper Evergreen, Colorado USA At 03:54 AM 7/6/2019, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels with 24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which needed for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not sure how efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some buffer for unknowns Thanks in advance Bill -- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info.
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 02:06:12PM +0200, Peter Corlett via cctech wrote: > they've closed the West London Line this weekend, ostensibly for > maintenance, but possibly just spite. Thanks. I needed a laugh today. mcl
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
On Saturday, July 6, 2019, 2:10:52 PM EDT, corey cohen via cctech wrote: > Wow I’m jealous, I lost out this week, it was a choice > between Bletchley and Selfriges. My kids wanted to > shop on Oxford street and didn’t want to take a train > for a few hours to Bletchley which would make dad > happy. They wanted a something a short walk or > tube ride from our hotel near Hyde park where they > could drive me crazy and lighten my wallet. That sounds familiar. The one time I was there, we neded up not having as much time as we had planned. So one day, the wife and daughter went to see the tower while I went to see Bletchley. BLS
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 at 00:23, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > When I visited Bletchley park and TNMOC I went by train from London. Euston > I believe. From Gatwick there are trains to Victoria which are quite quick. Me too. But then, I lived in London. Still took nearly 2 hours. But I think you and Peter have missed or not registered Bill's arrival time. To get to Bletchley from Gatwick by train would definitely be my preferred way, but I doubt it's possible starting at 11PM, and to be back again within 17h... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
lördag 6 juli 2019 skrev Bill Degnan via cctech : > Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a > 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at > bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the > airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels with > 24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which > needed for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not sure > how efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some buffer for > unknowns > Thanks in advance When I visited Bletchley park and TNMOC I went by train from London. Euston I believe. From Gatwick there are trains to Victoria which are quite quick. I have never driven myself in London, but has been going with taxi a number of times from the airports in the London area. The traffic can be quite bad. Gatwick is south of London and Bletchley is north of London so expect some queues depending on time. /Mattis > Bill >
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 12:54:28PM +0300, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a > 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at > bletchley park about an hour north. [...] It's actually *two* hours north; three if you want to add a safety margin. Remember the old saying: 200 years is a long time in the USA, and 200 miles is a long way in the UK. I advise against driving, especially if you're unfamiliar with British roads. It will be both slower and more expensive than the train for this particular route because London is in the way. Petrol works out at over $7/gal, and you get to navigate the infamous M25 motorway-cum-car-park. It's debatable whether it will be more convenient. There are railway stations at both Gatwick and Bletchley. Bletchley Park is a 3 minute walk from the station. If you do the standard tourist thing at the ticket office/machine, they'll screw you to the tune of £42.10 for an "any permitted" return ticket, which sends you on the Gatwick Express to the wrong side of London, the Tube back across London, and then another train to Bletchley. More changes between more modes of transport mean more risk of things going wrong. A "via Ken[sington] Olympia" ticket is £28.80, which would be my preferred route anyway. Gatwick to Clapham Junction, a quick change to the next platform, then onward to Bletchley. You do not need to stop at or change at Olympia. Both train routes take about two hours; the Olympia one is less frequent and slower by a few minutes according to the optimistic routing models which think the Tube pays any sort of attention to the timetable, but tends to be faster in practice. You might consider buying the more expensive "any permitted" ticket anyway as insurance to give you more flexibility if things go wrong. Have a play with https://traintimes.org.uk/GTW/BLY, but if you don't change the date, it won't show you Olympia routes because they've closed the West London Line this weekend, ostensibly for maintenance, but possibly just spite. This won't be the case on Thursday when you're travelling.
