Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated:
> 
> I don't want to bolt 
> on anything else, just let me define the same function twice with two 
> different parameter lists and I'll be one happy dude.

  The problem with that is the function name mangling (in object files)
needs to be standardized or you'll end up with the C++ mess we have now.

  And yes, that would be nice to have in C.

> Same here. I'll do a tutorial or read a book for anything even if I dont' 
> do much with it. Hehe, this might make you laugh, but my last two were 
> AREXX (using AROS) and FORTRAN. I'm pissed at myself for not learning 
> AREXX back when the Amiga was kickin'. FORTRAN was a mind trip. I felt it 
> had some kind of relation to Pascal (just certain things). It made me want 
> to go out and do some X-Ray crystallography just so I could write me some 
> applicable FORTRAN code, hehe.

  FORTRAN always reminded me of a slightly better BASIC.  Then again, that
was FORTRAM-77 I was using (first programming language taught in college).

  -spc

Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Swift Griggs]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
> > What have they added?  I recall hearing of someone doing some language
> > that requires a runtime with garbage collection and trying to call it
> > C, which to my mind would be a huge mistake - is that C11?
> That might have been D, which seems potentially interesting.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_%28programming_language%29

He *might* also be referring to the part of C11 that folks malign 
sometimes (Annex K) for bounds checking. Checkout strcpy_s() and 
strcat_s(). However, maybe not, since it's definitely not GC, just some 
bounds checking to prevent common crashes & security issues. 

There is also some rinky-dink GC in C++11 that nobody seems to like or 
know what to do with: 
http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2008/n2670.htm

Word on the street is that this will get removed. I wouldn't trust it 
anyhow because it's weird and I'd just ignore it and use boost:shared_ptr 
with glee.

-Swift

Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 29, 2016, at 12:43 PM, Mouse  wrote:
> 
>>> I [...] have found C++11 added some nice things.
>> Both C++11 and C11 really have me excited.  It's a kick in the butt
>> to the compiler makers.
> 
> What have they added?  I recall hearing of someone doing some language
> that requires a runtime with garbage collection and trying to call it
> C, which to my mind would be a huge mistake - is that C11?

That might have been D, which seems potentially interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_%28programming_language%29

paul

Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Mouse]

>> I [...] have found C++11 added some nice things.
> Both C++11 and C11 really have me excited.  It's a kick in the butt
> to the compiler makers.

What have they added?  I recall hearing of someone doing some language
that requires a runtime with garbage collection and trying to call it
C, which to my mind would be a huge mistake - is that C11?

> I'm bucking for some polymorphism for C, next.

It'd certainly be an interesting experiment to take C and add
polymorphism and nothing else.  I've occasionally wished for it myself,
though admittedly not often - between gcc's additions and my own
addition I find it rich enough for most of my purposes.  (I really
should build my own compiler for it, someday, though.)

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Swift Griggs]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Ben Sinclair wrote:
> it and Apple's SDKs felt, but appreciate a lot of that now.

I've heard they have a lot of boilerplate code, but it sounds like there 
is some reason to it, if you got cozy with it.

> I'm doing some embedded C++ work right now too, and often wish I could 
> use Objective-C there. I haven't done any C++ in years though, and have 
> found C++11 added some nice things.

Both C++11 and C11 really have me excited. It's a kick in the butt to the 
compiler makers. Gimme that sugar! I'm bucking for some polymorphism for 
C, next. IMHO, that'd be the icing on the cake for C. I don't want to bolt 
on anything else, just let me define the same function twice with two 
different parameter lists and I'll be one happy dude.

> I'll try whatever is new and fun though,

Same here. I'll do a tutorial or read a book for anything even if I dont' 
do much with it. Hehe, this might make you laugh, but my last two were 
AREXX (using AROS) and FORTRAN. I'm pissed at myself for not learning 
AREXX back when the Amiga was kickin'. FORTRAN was a mind trip. I felt it 
had some kind of relation to Pascal (just certain things). It made me want 
to go out and do some X-Ray crystallography just so I could write me some 
applicable FORTRAN code, hehe.

> and I've been enjoying Swift (the language!) quite a bit.

har har! Well, this is a not the first time my name has got me into 
trouble. You should hear when I went to a local meetup where folks were 
talking about the object store in openstack (called "Swift" also). Someone 
was cussin' it and saying that they made one mistake and blew up their 
object store. I was confused and I heard my name all around me. It was 
like an episode of the Twilight Zone. 

FYI, since everyone asks, Swift is my real name. My grandfather, Swift 
Lindley was born during the 30's when my great grandparents were so poor 
they couldn't pay attention. They had some sick scrawny cattle to sell and 
nobody would buy them. My great grandfather took them to a rail station 
near Pampa, Texas where they'd load up cattle to send on to Colorado and 
Wyoming to butcher and so forth. Still, nobody wanted to buy his sub-par 
stock. Meanwhile, unknown to him, my great grandmother had gone into labor 
and was giving birth about two weeks early. So, my great gramps runs into 
this cat named "Theodore Swift" and his crew (he was rich). He said he'd 
buy the cows since another deal had fallen threw and he wanted the train 
completely full. So, after this stroke of luck, my forefather came home 
victorious to find my great grandmother had given birth to a son. The 
first thing she asked him when he came home was "What will you name your 
son?" The story goes that he stood for a minute, smiled, and said "Swift" 

 then of course I just got it as a hand-me-down from my moms' side. 
:-)

-Swift

Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Ben Sinclair]

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Swift Griggs 
wrote:

>
> It's had at least a mediocre run. I mean, they used it for NeXTStep apps
> too. It's been around for quite a while with a pretty solid core of
> adherents. A C++ god that I used to work with called it "C++ without the
> suck". I don't particularly think C++ sucks, though (or I guess I got used
> to it). I never could read Obj-C, due to lack of practice in the lang, and
> too much at-colon-dash-at going on. However, again it was probably just
> lack of familiarity, on paper at least, it has some nice features.
>

I do a lot of iOS development and it took me years to get used to, or at
least feel comfortable with, Objective-C. At first I hated how verbose it
and Apple's SDKs felt, but appreciate a lot of that now. I'm doing some
embedded C++ work right now too, and often wish I could use Objective-C
there. I haven't done any C++ in years though, and have found C++11 added
some nice things.

I'll try whatever is new and fun though, and I've been enjoying Swift (the
language!) quite a bit. Apple is pushing it pretty hard, so I'll probably
use it for my next big iOS project.

--
Ben Sinclair
b...@bensinclair.com

Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Swift Griggs]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
> Did it really?  It is used in the Mac, much as Bliss was in VMS, but 
> apart from that, would anyone use it?

It's had at least a mediocre run. I mean, they used it for NeXTStep apps 
too. It's been around for quite a while with a pretty solid core of 
adherents. A C++ god that I used to work with called it "C++ without the 
suck". I don't particularly think C++ sucks, though (or I guess I got used 
to it). I never could read Obj-C, due to lack of practice in the lang, and 
too much at-colon-dash-at going on. However, again it was probably just 
lack of familiarity, on paper at least, it has some nice features.

-Swift

PS: If you folks who care about C are interested and haven't done any 
coding a while, check out the features in C11. I'm loving things like 
quick_exit() and the static assertions. I also am hoping for a cogent 
Annex K bound checking interface once it hits gcc, though I have my own 
cheesy cheap-az solutions for that kind of stuff (a little thing I call a 
reflective reference counter).

Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Norman Jaffe]

It is also the basis for iOS - you know, the system that runs on iPhones. 
I'd say that would be considered a significant impact - over 1.5 million 
applications. 
- Original Message -

From: "Paul Koning" <paulkon...@comcast.net> 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 7:58:43 AM 
Subject: Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) 


> On Apr 27, 2016, at 11:28 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. <je...@merlintec.com> 
> wrote: 
> ... 
> Objective-C was the only other C derivative to have a significant 
> impact. 

Did it really? It is used in the Mac, much as Bliss was in VMS, but apart from 
that, would anyone use it? 

paul 

Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 27, 2016, at 11:28 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr.  wrote:
> ...
> Objective-C was the only other C derivative to have a significant
> impact. 

Did it really?  It is used in the Mac, much as Bliss was in VMS, but apart from 
that, would anyone use it?

paul