Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS (Don North)

[Michael Thompson]

>
> From: Don North <ak...@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS (Don North)
> Message-ID: <498c12dd-437a-31ce-0a04-4602e50f6...@mindspring.com>
>
> There is a three PROM set 23-86[234]A9 for device code XM which is DDCMP
> boot
> over a DMC11/DMR11. Those PROMs are available and on my web page.
>
> I am not aware of the four PROM set you mention, but it could certainly be
> a
> custom one for that application.
>
> --
> Don North
> AK6DN
>
>
I looked in my notes. The 11/34s and KL10 talked through DMR11-ACs using
the megabit COAX interface. Maybe the three PROM version that you have is
the right one for this configuration, and there was another PROM on the
M9312.

-- 
Michael Thompson

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS (Don North)

[Michael Thompson]

>
> From: Don North <ak...@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS
>
> Actually the page listed below is a big out of date with respect to some
> M9312
> images (it is not an up to date mirror).
> The up to date page is at:  http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/
>
> --
> Don North
> AK6DN
>

RCS/RI has some PDP-11/34 systems that booted, I think using DDCMP, via a
COAX interface from a PDP-10 KL10. I think that it took four ROMs to hold
the boot loader. You might not have a copy of those ROMs.

-- 
Michael Thompson

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS (Don North)

[Don North]

On 6/10/2016 4:56 AM, Michael Thompson wrote:

From: Don North <ak...@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

Actually the page listed below is a big out of date with respect to some
M9312
images (it is not an up to date mirror).
The up to date page is at:  http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/

--
Don North
AK6DN


RCS/RI has some PDP-11/34 systems that booted, I think using DDCMP, via a
COAX interface from a PDP-10 KL10. I think that it took four ROMs to hold
the boot loader. You might not have a copy of those ROMs.

There is a three PROM set 23-86[234]A9 for device code XM which is DDCMP boot 
over a DMC11/DMR11. Those PROMs are available and on my web page.


A two PROM set 23-E3[23]A9 has been found for etherNet DELUA/DEUNA boot (device 
code XE?) but it has not been reverse engineered. Hopefully soon the device 
patterns will be read and forwarded to me for processing.


I am not aware of the four PROM set you mention, but it could certainly be a 
custom one for that application.



(XM) DECnet DDCMP DMC11/DMR11 	23-862A9 
<http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-862A9/23-862A9-0625.hex> 	0x0625 	SRC 
<http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-862A9/23-862A9.mac>

LST <http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-862A9/23-862A9.lst>  (1,2)
23-863A9 <http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-863A9/23-863A9-063F.hex> 
0x063F 	SRC <http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-863A9/23-863A9.mac>

LST <http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-863A9/23-863A9.lst>
23-864A9 <http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-864A9/23-864A9-0551.hex> 
0x0551 	SRC <http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-864A9/23-864A9.mac>

LST <http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-864A9/23-864A9.lst>


--
Don North
AK6DN

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Paul Koning]

> On Jun 9, 2016, at 12:56 AM, Don North  wrote:
> 
> On 6/8/2016 5:56 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> On Jun 8, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Jay West  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I wrote...
>>> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West  wrote:
 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81
>>> To which mike replied...
>>> 
>>> Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex
>>> UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP...
>>> 
>>> BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs?
>>> 
>>> Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not 
>>> sure, but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit 
>>> in the available rom space - self modifying code or something...
>> MSCP isn't all that hard.  The RSTS secondary loader fits in one block, and 
>> it contains not just code to speak MSCP but also enough room for a map of 
>> pointers to where the code to load lives (as opposed to the primary boot 
>> which just has to load one block from address zero).
>> 
>>  paul
> 
> In an M9312 boot PROM there are 49. words of bootstrap space that are 
> available for code and data. Getting an MSCP boot to fit in that space 
> required playing some tricks like treating some specially crafted 
> instructions as data values (and vice versa).

Oh... I didn't realize it was that small.  Yes, that does make it harder.

paul

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Jay West

> some (me) are sticklers for original code.

Is there possibly a listing of the code in a fiche, somewhere?

Noel

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Don North]

On 6/8/2016 5:56 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

On Jun 8, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Jay West  wrote:

I wrote...
On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West  wrote:

23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81

To which mike replied...

Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex
UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP...

BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs?

Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not sure, 
but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit in the 
available rom space - self modifying code or something...

MSCP isn't all that hard.  The RSTS secondary loader fits in one block, and it 
contains not just code to speak MSCP but also enough room for a map of pointers 
to where the code to load lives (as opposed to the primary boot which just has 
to load one block from address zero).

paul


In an M9312 boot PROM there are 49. words of bootstrap space that are available 
for code and data. Getting an MSCP boot to fit in that space required playing 
some tricks like treating some specially crafted instructions as data values 
(and vice versa).



--
Don North
AK6DN

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Don North]

On 6/8/2016 5:56 PM, Mike Ross wrote:

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 12:27 PM, John Robertson  wrote:


No way the M9312 can self modify, it is a burn once PROM -

I kinda assumed it was a case of copying itself to RAM and
self-modifying as it runs there - if it ever happened.

Mike


As it happens the 23-760A9 TT/PR boot PROM does this copy by building a 
bootstrap
sequence in RAM, and then jumping to it. Once it is built it is not self 
modifying, however.


Ref:  http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/23-760A9/23-760A9.lst

--
Don North
AK6DN

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Mike Ross]

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 12:27 PM, John Robertson  wrote:
> On 06/08/2016 3:46 PM, Jay West wrote:
>>
>> I wrote...
>> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West  wrote:
>>>
>>> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81
>>
>> To which mike replied...
>> 
>> Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex
>> UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP...
>>
>> BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312
>> ROMs?
>> 
>> Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not
>> sure, but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit
>> in the available rom space - self modifying code or something...
>>
>
> No way the M9312 can self modify, it is a burn once PROM -

I kinda assumed it was a case of copying itself to RAM and
self-modifying as it runs there - if it ever happened.

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Paul Koning]

> On Jun 8, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Jay West  wrote:
> 
> I wrote...
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West  wrote:
>> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81
> 
> To which mike replied...
> 
> Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex
> UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP...
> 
> BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs?
> 
> Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not sure, 
> but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit in the 
> available rom space - self modifying code or something...

MSCP isn't all that hard.  The RSTS secondary loader fits in one block, and it 
contains not just code to speak MSCP but also enough room for a map of pointers 
to where the code to load lives (as opposed to the primary boot which just has 
to load one block from address zero).

paul

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[John Robertson]

On 06/08/2016 3:46 PM, Jay West wrote:

I wrote...
On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West  wrote:

23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81

To which mike replied...

Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex
UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP...

BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs?

Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not sure, 
but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit in the 
available rom space - self modifying code or something...

Data I/O 29B

J





No way the M9312 can self modify, it is a burn once PROM - 
82S137/Am27S32/74S573 (1024x4-TS) and can easily be read and blown on a 
Data I/O 29B.


If you have a good copy of the original code it WILL replicate on a new 
PROM just fine.


Reference page of the files:

http://www.bluefeathertech.com/technoid/promfiles.html

John :-#)#

--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
 www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"

RE: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Jay West]

I wrote...
On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West  wrote:
> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81

To which mike replied...

Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex
UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP...

BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs?

Possibly, but some (me) are sticklers for original code. Plus, I am not sure, 
but I think someone said this rom did something really bizarre to fit in the 
available rom space - self modifying code or something...

Data I/O 29B

J

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Mike Ross]

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West  wrote:
> 23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81

Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex
UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP...

BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs?

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Don North]

On 6/8/2016 3:13 PM, Mike Ross wrote:

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West  wrote:

23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81

Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex
UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP...

BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs?

I have tried to compress/adapt the TMSCP boot in the PDP11 SIMH device driver, a 
bootstrap listing in a DEC tech manual, and using the programming concepts 
(hacks) in the MSCP DU M9312 boot prom 23-767A9, and have not been able to get a 
valid code image that fits in the PROM and has all the required functionality. 
So DEC must have taken some magic shortcut to get working TU boot code in the 
23-E39A9 PROM.


As to programming parts, I use an EETools TopMax programmer that I have had for 
years. It will do just about any of the older programmable devices. There are 
other programmers around (old DataIO's for example) that can do these bipolar 
PROMs.


Also, M9312 boot PROMs are typically 82S131 (or equiv) 512x4 tristate devices, 
but only half the device is used; the other half of the device is never accessed 
on the M9312 and is just blank filled.  An 82S129 (or equiv) 256x4 tristate 
device works just as well as a boot PROM as the upper address pin becomes an 
active low chip select, and this pin is pulled low on the M9312 board.


--
Don North
AK6DN

Actually the page listed below is a big out of date with respect to some M9312 
images (it is not an up to date mirror).

The up to date page is at:  http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/

Also note the 82S137/Am27S32/74S573 (1024x4-TS) device list applies to the 
CONSOLE PROMs, not the BOOT PROMs.


On 6/8/2016 5:27 PM, John Robertson wrote:


No way the M9312 can self modify, it is a burn once PROM - 
82S137/Am27S32/74S573 (1024x4-TS) and can easily be read and blown on a Data 
I/O 29B.


If you have a good copy of the original code it WILL replicate on a new PROM 
just fine.


Reference page of the files:

http://www.bluefeathertech.com/technoid/promfiles.html

John :-#)#




--
Don North
AK6DN

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Don North]

On 6/8/2016 3:13 PM, Mike Ross wrote:

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Jay West  wrote:

23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81

Could that not be reverse-engineered from the boot code in e.g. Emulex
UC17 ROMs? They could do TMSCP...

BTW what PROM blower would folks recommend for creating/imaging M9312 ROMs?

I have tried to compress/adapt the TMSCP boot in the PDP11 SIMH device driver, a 
bootstrap listing in a DEC tech manual, and using the programming concepts 
(hacks) in the MSCP DU M9312 boot prom 23-767A9, and have not been able to get a 
valid code image that fits in the PROM and has all the required functionality. 
So DEC must have taken some magic shortcut to get working TU boot code in the 
23-E39A9 PROM.


As to programming parts, I use an EETools TopMax programmer that I have had for 
years. It will do just about any of the older programmable devices. There are 
other programmers around (old DataIO's for example) that can do these bipolar PROMs.


Also, M9312 boot PROMs are typically 82S131 (or equiv) 512x4 tristate devices, 
but only half the device is used; the other half of the device is never accessed 
on the M9312 and is just blank filled.  An 82S129 (or equiv) 256x4 tristate 
device works just as well as a boot PROM as the upper address pin becomes an 
active low chip select, and this pin is pulled low on the M9312 board.


--
Don North
AK6DN

RE: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Jay West]

23-E39A9 is still lost to time, afaik. TMSCP - TU81

J

UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[william degnan]

Posted an inventory of my M9312 ROMs

http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=638

b

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg 
Youtube: @billdeg 
Unauthorized Bio 

Re: UNIBUS M9312 ROMS

[Al Kossow]

decnet ethernet boot still MIA :-(


On 6/8/16 11:24 AM, william degnan wrote:
> Posted an inventory of my M9312 ROMs
> 
> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=638
> 
> b
>