Re: Ultrix-11 Networking
On 8/28/2021 6:19 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: On 8/28/21 4:13 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: On 8/28/2021 1:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 8/28/21 1:03 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: Yes, I did create a new kernel and copy it to the correct place and chmod 644 the new unix file. Did yo have fun playing with the overlays? :-) I don't know what this means. The kernel creation was automatic, it seemed to check for enough room. I guess you did the bare minimum to get the network up. When I buld a new kernel I tend to add all the devices (like multiple network cards and serial cards) that I may want in the future. I have often had to manually shift things around and usually create one or two additional overlays to get it all to fit. I actually enjoy doing it. :-) I had only toyed with the idea of adding a dzv11 so real terminals could be connected to a real pdp11 Ultrix-11 system. I guess I'll find out once I get there. On my Debian system I can install ftpd and telnetd (they are still in the Debian package list) which are the unsecure ones, but I don't know how to configure them or start them. As in, # systemctl restart ftpd Probably easier to turn them on on Ultrix-11. Just modify inetd.conf. Actually, I just looked and ftp is on by default. Telnet is not. I edited inetd.conf to uncomment telnet. It helped. It turns out to not be a hot topic: "How do I make my Liinux system less secure?", but for us that noodle around with old computers with obsolete operating systems it is exactly what we need. In the past I remember using Filezilla to go from a Windows7 machine into a Vax without any problem. I suspect you will be somewhat disappointed with networking in Ultrix-11. Not that there is something wrong with it, just that the hardware is nothing like you are used to. In the early days of networking it was not unusual for systems like the PDP-11 to crash just because of the traffic passing by on their network connection. The advent of switches helped alleviate that but it is still common to crash a system by pushing data at it from a modern ftp. I expect FileZila will do it. To be honest, I always preferred Kermit for moving files. It is possible to keep packet sizes down and even slow down the transfer rate to give the PDP time to handle it. bill I brought up a Vax Alpha 3000-300 and tried interacting with the Ultrix-11 simulation: Starting in Ultrix-11 I could log into the vax via telnet. Ultrix-11 ftp was able to transfer a short ascii file from the Vax to the Ultrix-11 sim. Just another note. remember that ulimit is only 1024 on Ultrix-11 by default. That means no file larger than 10M. Unless you raise ulimit. Going the other way, Ultrix-11 would reject an ftp request from the vax, here is the error message - $ ftp 192.169.0.52 %TCPIP-E-FTP_NETERR, I/O error on network device -SYSTEM-F-UNREACHABLE, remote node is not currently reachable $ Been a long time. Could have to do with PTYs. Remember, FTP takes two open connection and the number of possible connection on Ultrix-11 is very limited. I think I noticed that I only had 2 PTY's during the install/kernel process. Glad you mentioned this, it had gone over my head. Ignore the VAX error, the error was mine. I typed the ip wrong, should have been 192.168.0.52, not 192.169.0.52. Blame it on bad eyes, old age, small font, clumsy fingers. Ultrix-11 would allow a telnet connection (after the change to inetd.conf) and I could do an ls, but when I asked for a man page it hung up. Nothing after that, had to kill it. I told you it was very unstable. :-) I got the same result whether I was telneting in from the Vax or Linux computer. Probably not news to you. I wonder if real hardware works just like this Sometimes, but I always found SIMH less reliable with my limited use of it. I always preferred real hardware. It was good to find out that you can get things in/out of the Ultrix-11 simulation. Like I said, I usually find Kermit over emulated serial lines to be more efficient at moving stuff on and off. The network may be faster but failures after 4 hours of a transfer can be very frustrating. Better to let kkermit have it over night and then get a fresh start in the morning. bill
Re: Ultrix-11 Networking
On 8/28/21 4:13 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: On 8/28/2021 1:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 8/28/21 1:03 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: Yes, I did create a new kernel and copy it to the correct place and chmod 644 the new unix file. Did yo have fun playing with the overlays? :-) I don't know what this means. The kernel creation was automatic, it seemed to check for enough room. I guess you did the bare minimum to get the network up. When I buld a new kernel I tend to add all the devices (like multiple network cards and serial cards) that I may want in the future. I have often had to manually shift things around and usually create one or two additional overlays to get it all to fit. I actually enjoy doing it. :-) On my Debian system I can install ftpd and telnetd (they are still in the Debian package list) which are the unsecure ones, but I don't know how to configure them or start them. As in, # systemctl restart ftpd Probably easier to turn them on on Ultrix-11. Just modify inetd.conf. Actually, I just looked and ftp is on by default. Telnet is not. I edited inetd.conf to uncomment telnet. It helped. It turns out to not be a hot topic: "How do I make my Liinux system less secure?", but for us that noodle around with old computers with obsolete operating systems it is exactly what we need. In the past I remember using Filezilla to go from a Windows7 machine into a Vax without any problem. I suspect you will be somewhat disappointed with networking in Ultrix-11. Not that there is something wrong with it, just that the hardware is nothing like you are used to. In the early days of networking it was not unusual for systems like the PDP-11 to crash just because of the traffic passing by on their network connection. The advent of switches helped alleviate that but it is still common to crash a system by pushing data at it from a modern ftp. I expect FileZila will do it. To be honest, I always preferred Kermit for moving files. It is possible to keep packet sizes down and even slow down the transfer rate to give the PDP time to handle it. bill I brought up a Vax Alpha 3000-300 and tried interacting with the Ultrix-11 simulation: Starting in Ultrix-11 I could log into the vax via telnet. Ultrix-11 ftp was able to transfer a short ascii file from the Vax to the Ultrix-11 sim. Just another note. remember that ulimit is only 1024 on Ultrix-11 by default. That means no file larger than 10M. Unless you raise ulimit. Going the other way, Ultrix-11 would reject an ftp request from the vax, here is the error message - $ ftp 192.169.0.52 %TCPIP-E-FTP_NETERR, I/O error on network device -SYSTEM-F-UNREACHABLE, remote node is not currently reachable $ Been a long time. Could have to do with PTYs. Remember, FTP takes two open connection and the number of possible connection on Ultrix-11 is very limited. Ultrix-11 would allow a telnet connection (after the change to inetd.conf) and I could do an ls, but when I asked for a man page it hung up. Nothing after that, had to kill it. I told you it was very unstable. :-) I got the same result whether I was telneting in from the Vax or Linux computer. Probably not news to you. I wonder if real hardware works just like this Sometimes, but I always found SIMH less reliable with my limited use of it. I always preferred real hardware. It was good to find out that you can get things in/out of the Ultrix-11 simulation. Like I said, I usually find Kermit over emulated serial lines to be more efficient at moving stuff on and off. The network may be faster but failures after 4 hours of a transfer can be very frustrating. Better to let kkermit have it over night and then get a fresh start in the morning. bill
Re: Ultrix-11 Networking
On 8/28/2021 1:15 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 8/28/21 1:03 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: Yes, I did create a new kernel and copy it to the correct place and chmod 644 the new unix file. Did yo have fun playing with the overlays? :-) I don't know what this means. The kernel creation was automatic, it seemed to check for enough room. On my Debian system I can install ftpd and telnetd (they are still in the Debian package list) which are the unsecure ones, but I don't know how to configure them or start them. As in, # systemctl restart ftpd Probably easier to turn them on on Ultrix-11. Just modify inetd.conf. Actually, I just looked and ftp is on by default. Telnet is not. I edited inetd.conf to uncomment telnet. It helped. It turns out to not be a hot topic: "How do I make my Liinux system less secure?", but for us that noodle around with old computers with obsolete operating systems it is exactly what we need. In the past I remember using Filezilla to go from a Windows7 machine into a Vax without any problem. I suspect you will be somewhat disappointed with networking in Ultrix-11. Not that there is something wrong with it, just that the hardware is nothing like you are used to. In the early days of networking it was not unusual for systems like the PDP-11 to crash just because of the traffic passing by on their network connection. The advent of switches helped alleviate that but it is still common to crash a system by pushing data at it from a modern ftp. I expect FileZila will do it. To be honest, I always preferred Kermit for moving files. It is possible to keep packet sizes down and even slow down the transfer rate to give the PDP time to handle it. bill I brought up a Vax Alpha 3000-300 and tried interacting with the Ultrix-11 simulation: Starting in Ultrix-11 I could log into the vax via telnet. Ultrix-11 ftp was able to transfer a short ascii file from the Vax to the Ultrix-11 sim. Going the other way, Ultrix-11 would reject an ftp request from the vax, here is the error message - $ ftp 192.169.0.52 %TCPIP-E-FTP_NETERR, I/O error on network device -SYSTEM-F-UNREACHABLE, remote node is not currently reachable $ Ultrix-11 would allow a telnet connection (after the change to inetd.conf) and I could do an ls, but when I asked for a man page it hung up. Nothing after that, had to kill it. I got the same result whether I was telneting in from the Vax or Linux computer. Probably not news to you. I wonder if real hardware works just like this It was good to find out that you can get things in/out of the Ultrix-11 simulation. Doug
Re: Ultrix-11 Networking
On 8/28/21 1:03 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: Yes, I did create a new kernel and copy it to the correct place and chmod 644 the new unix file. Did yo have fun playing with the overlays? :-) On my Debian system I can install ftpd and telnetd (they are still in the Debian package list) which are the unsecure ones, but I don't know how to configure them or start them. As in, # systemctl restart ftpd Probably easier to turn them on on Ultrix-11. Just modify inetd.conf. Actually, I just looked and ftp is on by default. Telnet is not. It turns out to not be a hot topic: "How do I make my Liinux system less secure?", but for us that noodle around with old computers with obsolete operating systems it is exactly what we need. In the past I remember using Filezilla to go from a Windows7 machine into a Vax without any problem. I suspect you will be somewhat disappointed with networking in Ultrix-11. Not that there is something wrong with it, just that the hardware is nothing like you are used to. In the early days of networking it was not unusual for systems like the PDP-11 to crash just because of the traffic passing by on their network connection. The advent of switches helped alleviate that but it is still common to crash a system by pushing data at it from a modern ftp. I expect FileZila will do it. To be honest, I always preferred Kermit for moving files. It is possible to keep packet sizes down and even slow down the transfer rate to give the PDP time to handle it. bill
Re: Ultrix-11 Networking
The old-school way to do this is to install inetd, ensure it gets started up, and uncomment the line in its config-file (/etc/inetd.conf ?) for telnet. Setting up an ftp chroot area is painful. If you're using cleartext passwords (telnet) anyway, I'd set up rlogin/rsh, and use rcp. Same story: /etc/inetd.conf, or whatever Debian replaced that with. Assuming Ultrix-11 has rsh/rcp, that is.
Re: Ultrix-11 Networking
Yes, I did create a new kernel and copy it to the correct place and chmod 644 the new unix file. On my Debian system I can install ftpd and telnetd (they are still in the Debian package list) which are the unsecure ones, but I don't know how to configure them or start them. As in, # systemctl restart ftpd It turns out to not be a hot topic: "How do I make my Liinux system less secure?", but for us that noodle around with old computers with obsolete operating systems it is exactly what we need. In the past I remember using Filezilla to go from a Windows7 machine into a Vax without any problem. Doug On 8/28/2021 12:54 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 8/28/21 12:43 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: Its been fun working with Ultrix-11 and have had success with the help of the list. Thanks. The tape file from Bill Gunshannon will create a working system. Yay! I'm at the point of trying to network the SIMH pdp11 Ultrix-11 system. I have a few observations: 1. The youtube video 'Ultrix-11' shows connecting to sunOS systems. OK, he did this by simply issuing a single ifconfig command. That didn't work for me. I assume you built a new kernel with the right networking interface in it? :-) 2. Instead, I used the netsetup script supplied with the system, and had to reboot to get networking up. I did seem to come up OK. 3. The SIMH FAQ suggests using a 2nd ethernet port, I was able to do this. The linux computer I am running SIMH on has 2 ports. 4. The Ultrix-11 telnet ftp are old, unsecure versions, how do you connect to a modern Linux machine? The Linux machines refuse the connections. All telnet and ftp connectionms are old and insecure. There is no such thing as secure telnet or ftp (or rsh or finger, you get the picture). If you wish to go from the Ultrix-11 system to the Linux system you will need to explicitly turn on telnetd and/or ftpd. Or, do the same on Ultrix-11 and go the other way. There is no ssh for Ultrix-11 and I seriously doubt there ever could be. 5. I also looked at the tuhs archive. The Fred build script that generates a tk50 bootable tape image didn't work for me. I substituted a file for the tape device and it caused SIMH to Halt. Don't remember what system I bult the tape on but I doubt it was an Ultrix-11 system. Probably a VAX runnning netbbsd under SIMH. bill
Ultrix-11 Networking
Its been fun working with Ultrix-11 and have had success with the help of the list. Thanks. The tape file from Bill Gunshannon will create a working system. Yay! I'm at the point of trying to network the SIMH pdp11 Ultrix-11 system. I have a few observations: 1. The youtube video 'Ultrix-11' shows connecting to sunOS systems. OK, he did this by simply issuing a single ifconfig command. That didn't work for me. 2. Instead, I used the netsetup script supplied with the system, and had to reboot to get networking up. I did seem to come up OK. 3. The SIMH FAQ suggests using a 2nd ethernet port, I was able to do this. The linux computer I am running SIMH on has 2 ports. 4. The Ultrix-11 telnet ftp are old, unsecure versions, how do you connect to a modern Linux machine? The Linux machines refuse the connections. 5. I also looked at the tuhs archive. The Fred build script that generates a tk50 bootable tape image didn't work for me. I substituted a file for the tape device and it caused SIMH to Halt. Doug
Re: Ultrix-11 Networking
On 8/28/21 12:43 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: Its been fun working with Ultrix-11 and have had success with the help of the list. Thanks. The tape file from Bill Gunshannon will create a working system. Yay! I'm at the point of trying to network the SIMH pdp11 Ultrix-11 system. I have a few observations: 1. The youtube video 'Ultrix-11' shows connecting to sunOS systems. OK, he did this by simply issuing a single ifconfig command. That didn't work for me. I assume you built a new kernel with the right networking interface in it? :-) 2. Instead, I used the netsetup script supplied with the system, and had to reboot to get networking up. I did seem to come up OK. 3. The SIMH FAQ suggests using a 2nd ethernet port, I was able to do this. The linux computer I am running SIMH on has 2 ports. 4. The Ultrix-11 telnet ftp are old, unsecure versions, how do you connect to a modern Linux machine? The Linux machines refuse the connections. All telnet and ftp connectionms are old and insecure. There is no such thing as secure telnet or ftp (or rsh or finger, you get the picture). If you wish to go from the Ultrix-11 system to the Linux system you will need to explicitly turn on telnetd and/or ftpd. Or, do the same on Ultrix-11 and go the other way. There is no ssh for Ultrix-11 and I seriously doubt there ever could be. 5. I also looked at the tuhs archive. The Fred build script that generates a tk50 bootable tape image didn't work for me. I substituted a file for the tape device and it caused SIMH to Halt. Don't remember what system I bult the tape on but I doubt it was an Ultrix-11 system. Probably a VAX runnning netbbsd under SIMH. bill
