Re: PC diskette drives in a HP 9122C was WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2017-11-24 2:02 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 11/23/2017 07:02 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:

I have managed to get 2 PC type drives working in a 9122C they are two
different versions of the YE Data YD-702D.  The important thing is the
drive needs to provide a ready signal, diskette change and density.
Most drives provide the last two but do not have a ready signal.  You
also need to leave pin 1 unconnected this is a signal from the
controller to reset the diskette changed signal.  One of the drive the
YD-702D-6037 can also be altered by moving jumpers to get power from the
cable.  The other a YD-702D-6537D does not and it unfortunately seems to
be the more common drive.  I changed the drives so that ready is on Pin
34, diskette change on pin 2 and density on pin 4, the same as the Sony
drive in the 9122C.  I did encounter one problem where if I tried to CAT
a diskette it would always report that the diskette was changed or
missing and I recall encountering this previously, it may be related to
how the diskette changed signal gets reset. On most "standard" 3.5"
drives the diskette changed signal gets reset as soon as the drive is
selected and receives a step pulse. On the Sony drives used in the 9122C
reset the diskette changed signal by a pulse on pin 1 from the
controller.  What I think is happening is when media is changed, the
controller thinks it does not have to move the head so the diskette
changed never gets reset so the controller continues to think the
diskette has been changed, I will do more testing to verify.  I thought
that booting with the drive empty provoked this but that is not the
case.  I can post details of the modifications to the drives if anyone
is interested.

In cases like this, I fall back to my favorite--the Samsung SFD-321B:

http://www.techtravels.org/wp-content/uploads/pefiles/SAMSUNG-SFD321B-070103.pdf

Plenty of them in the wild and very configurable.   In most of my cases,
pin 34 is ready, pin 2 is Disk changed, DS0 is assumed and the spindle
speed is 360 RPM.

You can get them readily in black or white faceplates or even
faceplate-less.

FWIW,
Chuck

My old Compaq system has one of these drives in it so I pulled out out 
to take a look and yes it should work however the signal cable connector 
is on the left looking at the back which is the opposite of where it is 
on the Sony and YE Data drives.  The signal cable inside the 9122C is 
pretty tightly folded and it would require modification if you wanted to 
put the drive in the right bay but should be ok in the left one.


I also got a Panasonic JU-257A606P to work once I noticed the head 
stepper was unplugged.  This drive apparently has versions with switches 
on the board to change the configuration.  The drive I have does not 
have these switches but wire jumpers on the pad work just as well.  This 
drive also has the signal connector on the left.


Forgot to mention that the 9122C uses select 0 for the first drive 
normally the left one,   and select 3 for the second drive.  Most newer 
drives do not have a provision for using select 2 or 3 and indeed since 
many are aimed at the PC market they are hard wired for select 1.  I 
just remapped the select pin in my case connected pin 6 on the cable 
(select 3) to pin 12 on the drive (select 1).  Unless your drive can be 
set up for power on the signal cable like the original Sony drive, you 
will need some kind of an interposer between the cable and drive anyway, 
and it is easy to remap pins there.


Paul.

Re: PC diskette drives in a HP 9122C was WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/23/2017 07:02 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
> I have managed to get 2 PC type drives working in a 9122C they are two
> different versions of the YE Data YD-702D.  The important thing is the
> drive needs to provide a ready signal, diskette change and density. 
> Most drives provide the last two but do not have a ready signal.  You
> also need to leave pin 1 unconnected this is a signal from the
> controller to reset the diskette changed signal.  One of the drive the
> YD-702D-6037 can also be altered by moving jumpers to get power from the
> cable.  The other a YD-702D-6537D does not and it unfortunately seems to
> be the more common drive.  I changed the drives so that ready is on Pin
> 34, diskette change on pin 2 and density on pin 4, the same as the Sony
> drive in the 9122C.  I did encounter one problem where if I tried to CAT
> a diskette it would always report that the diskette was changed or
> missing and I recall encountering this previously, it may be related to
> how the diskette changed signal gets reset. On most "standard" 3.5"
> drives the diskette changed signal gets reset as soon as the drive is
> selected and receives a step pulse. On the Sony drives used in the 9122C
> reset the diskette changed signal by a pulse on pin 1 from the
> controller.  What I think is happening is when media is changed, the
> controller thinks it does not have to move the head so the diskette
> changed never gets reset so the controller continues to think the
> diskette has been changed, I will do more testing to verify.  I thought
> that booting with the drive empty provoked this but that is not the
> case.  I can post details of the modifications to the drives if anyone
> is interested.

In cases like this, I fall back to my favorite--the Samsung SFD-321B:

http://www.techtravels.org/wp-content/uploads/pefiles/SAMSUNG-SFD321B-070103.pdf

Plenty of them in the wild and very configurable.   In most of my cases,
pin 34 is ready, pin 2 is Disk changed, DS0 is assumed and the spindle
speed is 360 RPM.

You can get them readily in black or white faceplates or even
faceplate-less.

FWIW,
Chuck

PC diskette drives in a HP 9122C was WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

I have managed to get 2 PC type drives working in a 9122C they are two 
different versions of the YE Data YD-702D.  The important thing is the 
drive needs to provide a ready signal, diskette change and density.  
Most drives provide the last two but do not have a ready signal.  You 
also need to leave pin 1 unconnected this is a signal from the 
controller to reset the diskette changed signal.  One of the drive the 
YD-702D-6037 can also be altered by moving jumpers to get power from the 
cable.  The other a YD-702D-6537D does not and it unfortunately seems to 
be the more common drive.  I changed the drives so that ready is on Pin 
34, diskette change on pin 2 and density on pin 4, the same as the Sony 
drive in the 9122C.  I did encounter one problem where if I tried to CAT 
a diskette it would always report that the diskette was changed or 
missing and I recall encountering this previously, it may be related to 
how the diskette changed signal gets reset. On most "standard" 3.5" 
drives the diskette changed signal gets reset as soon as the drive is 
selected and receives a step pulse. On the Sony drives used in the 9122C 
reset the diskette changed signal by a pulse on pin 1 from the 
controller.  What I think is happening is when media is changed, the 
controller thinks it does not have to move the head so the diskette 
changed never gets reset so the controller continues to think the 
diskette has been changed, I will do more testing to verify.  I thought 
that booting with the drive empty provoked this but that is not the 
case.  I can post details of the modifications to the drives if anyone 
is interested.


Paul.


On 2017-11-17 1:26 PM, Paul Berger wrote:
I just checked my 9122C I happen to have open and the interval between 
index pulses is 199.66mS  which would be 300 RPM, which is good news 
for me I can now proceed with adapting a more common 1.44 drive to 
replace my broken one.


Paul.


On 2017-11-17 1:04 PM, Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk wrote:
Check your email. How can you tell if it uses a 600 RPM mechanism or 
not?


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Eric Smith  wrote:


Hi Eric,

It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C
ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board?

Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM 
mechanism.


Thanks!

Best regards,
Eric

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/17/2017 09:17 AM, allison via cctech wrote:

> Also the Syquest 270mb IDE/parallel port cartridge disk.  I have one
> that works
> and over a dozen carts.  Its still in use in a ITX box using the IDE
> interface.  After
> two decades of use it seems solid.

I've left out the non-floppy technologies.   I have a Squest Sparq,
unused still in its packaging, for example.  After being sent one for
evaluation, I rejected it because it was offered only in the
printer-port version, which necessarily limits transfer bandwidth.

But there were plenty of "floppy" technologies, such as the UHD144, or
LS120 or Drivetec stuff.   I treat Bernoulli and Zip as a floppy-sort-of
technology, because they are incapable of reading standard floppies, so
I don't include them either, even though they employed flexible media.

--Chuck

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[allison via cctalk]

On 11/16/2017 03:30 PM, Geoffrey Reed via cctech wrote:
>
> On 11/15/17, 9:44 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk"
>  wrote:
>> Can you name another 20 exceptions?   (Chuck and Tony probably can)
>>
>>
>> --
>> Grumpy Ol' Fred  ci...@xenosoft.com
>
>  ³Floptical² disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted
> capacity
>
>  LS-120 and LS-240 (which sadly I can¹t remember the specs of :(
>
>
>

Also the Syquest 270mb IDE/parallel port cartridge disk.  I have one
that works
and over a dozen carts.  Its still in use in a ITX box using the IDE
interface.  After
two decades of use it seems solid.

Allison

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

I just checked my 9122C I happen to have open and the interval between 
index pulses is 199.66mS  which would be 300 RPM, which is good news for 
me I can now proceed with adapting a more common 1.44 drive to replace 
my broken one.


Paul.


On 2017-11-17 1:04 PM, Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk wrote:

Check your email. How can you tell if it uses a 600 RPM mechanism or not?

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Eric Smith  wrote:


Hi Eric,

It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C
ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board?

Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM mechanism.

Thanks!

Best regards,
Eric


On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" 
wrote:


It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out
a
board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be
cheaper
for me to buy that instead.

I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use
it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:




On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk <

cctalk@classiccmp.org>

wrote:

wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85?


I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :)

I’ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement)
which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the

Extended

Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my

A

model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the

Amigo or

SS-80 protocols.

I’d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time

finding

1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don’t talk,

so

that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5” DD
media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other
3.5” HPIB floppy drives.

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk]

Check your email. How can you tell if it uses a 600 RPM mechanism or not?

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Eric Smith  wrote:

> Hi Eric,
>
> It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C
> ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board?
>
> Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM mechanism.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Best regards,
> Eric
>
>
> On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" 
> wrote:
>
>> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out
>> a
>> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be
>> cheaper
>> for me to buy that instead.
>>
>> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use
>> it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85?
>> > >
>> >
>> > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :)
>> >
>> > I’ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement)
>> > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the
>> Extended
>> > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my
>> A
>> > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the
>> Amigo or
>> > SS-80 protocols.
>> >
>> > I’d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time
>> finding
>> > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don’t talk,
>> so
>> > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5” DD
>> > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other
>> > 3.5” HPIB floppy drives.
>> >
>>
>

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive 
has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format.

;-)


"high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their 
capacity in a given format.  It is a BOGUS marketing term!


On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
Fred, you should know by now that you don't need to tell *me* the correct 
definitions and terms.


I know that, but I was addressing the entire group with my rant, and not 
everybody is as closely familiar with these details as you are.


And with "high-density", I didn't mean the media capacity but the analog 
recording aspects like coercivity, write current, frequency and so on.


Actually, when speaking about the MEDIA, it is much easier to create a 
name that is both accurate and unambiguous.
For example, with 5.25" disks, we have "5.25 inch with 300 Oersted" and 
"5.25 inch with 600 Oersted".
Of course, if somebody wants to be difficult, there are still variant 
forms, including both 10 and 16 sector hard-sectored, Amlyn 600 Oersted 
with special cutouts for the disk changer, Twiggy, no-notch disks for some 
minor tamper resistance in software distribution, etc.



Unformatted capacity would be a more correct nomenclature, although ...
Unformatted capacity doesn't tell you much without reference to the recording 
layout, i.e. no. of tracks, modulation, frequency and so on.


True.


Some specifications:
5.25" MFM "High Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about 1M 
unformatted per side)


What about 5¼" FM "High Density" at 360 RPM?


By "Some specifications", I meant specifications of SOME examples of the 
most common form of each size.  I was absolutely not intending it to be 
an exhaustive, comprehensive list of all possibilities.



The Amiga (more exactly, the "HD" Chinon FZ-357A drives used in Amigas) 
switched to 150 RPM to keep the raw bit rate at 250kbits/s.


THAT is exactly what I was including as examples in my later "exceptions" 
list.  Although a different disk size, that is the same engineering kludge 
as the Weltec 5.25" 180RPM drive.


3.5" MFM "ED" (vertical recording?/barrium ferrite) were 300 RPM at 
1,000,000 bits per second.  (2M unformatted per side)  NeXT referred to 
theirs by the unformatted capacity: 4M, further confusing their users.

What about FM?


Again, just listing examples of most common, NOT intending it as a list of 
all possibilities that were theoretically possible.  I have never seen an 
ED disk recorded FM, and do not believe that there was ever a commercial 
system that used that.  If you know of one, please give us the details!




Can you name another 20 exceptions?   (Chuck and Tony probably can)


Do you want me to start with things like 100tpi drives, GCR, M²FM, 
hard-sectored and other crazy formats?


It can be a very long list.  I was trying to stick with ones that were 
very close to the main branch of our "current" evolutionary tree, but 
there isn't a clear boundary.  I estimate that there were approximately 
2500 different microcomputer floppy disk formats, with a large portion of 
those being variant forms, not just different choices of number and size 
of sectors, directory location and structure, etc. 
I implemented just over 400 formats in XenoCopy that were straight-forward 
to handle with IBM PC hardware.  Those are not all that could have been 
implemented, nor does it deny the existence of many variants, or 
completely different ones that are not feasable with PC.



Just accept that I am not as dumb as you may think.


I have NEVER thought that you were dumb.  Everything that I have seen 
of your posts has been competent and well-informed.  But, I don't think 
that you follow what I was attempting to convey.


I wanted to:
1) rant about marketing creating terminology, including "double density" 
and "high density".  And creating a new definition of Megabyte (1,024,000) 
for the "1.44M" format (1,474,560 bytes/1.40625Mebibytes)


2) state my opinion that using the specific one that comprises at least 
75%? of the use of a given configuration as the name for that 
configuration creates a name that is admittedly inaccurate, and fraught 
with exceptions, nevertheless relatively unambiguous, at least to the 
extent that purchases will usually be usable.


If I buy "360K diskette", it will usually be the 300 Oersted 5.25 inch, 
and be the closest of what is available to buy for 87.5K TRS80, 
Apple2, PET, Osborne, PC 160K/180K/320K/360K, DEC Rainbow, Canon AS100, 
Elcompco, Eagle, Otrona, etc. 
Yes, there were people who used 41 or 42 tracks of a 40 track drive, but I 
consider those to be "corner cases", to be considered as alterations, not 
as the main form.
Admittedly, there were differences in testing between SSSD, DSSD, DSSD, 
DSDD, and 48tpi v 96tpi marketing of disks with the same chmical 
formulation.  Purchasing diskettes now for something such as a DEC 
Rainbow, I would settle for the 360K 

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 16 November 2017 at 21:30, Geoffrey Reed via cctalk
 wrote:
>
>  ³Floptical² disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted
> capacity

Just FYI, your quote marks render on Linux as superscript 2s.

Using an Apple device? You might want to turn off smart quotes...

https://www.jordanmerrick.com/posts/ios-11-smart-punctuation/

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/09/26/tips-turn-off-ios-11-smart-punctuation-to-avoid-data-entry-problems

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/16/2017 12:30 PM, Geoffrey Reed via cctalk wrote:

>  ³Floptical² disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted
> capacity
> 
>  LS-120 and LS-240 (which sadly I can¹t remember the specs of :(

How about the Caleb "it" drive (UHD144):

http://www.obsoletemedia.org/caleb-uhd144/

I've still got a stack of those drives and media.

Or the DTC "TakeTen" drive (got the drive but no media), or the Qume
Hyperflex drive or the Kodak/Drivetec floppy drives or the DTC TeamMate
for Apple...

The list is very long indeed.

--Chuck

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Geoffrey Reed via cctalk]

On 11/15/17, 9:44 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk"
 wrote:
>
>Can you name another 20 exceptions?   (Chuck and Tony probably can)
>
>
>--
>Grumpy Ol' Fredci...@xenosoft.com


 ³Floptical² disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted
capacity

 LS-120 and LS-240 (which sadly I can¹t remember the specs of :(

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk]

Yep, I've been meaning to do that for a while.

On Nov 16, 2017 3:17 AM, "Eric Smith"  wrote:

> Hi Eric,
>
> It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C
> ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board?
>
> Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM mechanism.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Best regards,
> Eric
>
>
> On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" 
> wrote:
>
>> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out
>> a
>> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be
>> cheaper
>> for me to buy that instead.
>>
>> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use
>> it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85?
>> > >
>> >
>> > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :)
>> >
>> > I’ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement)
>> > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the
>> Extended
>> > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my
>> A
>> > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the
>> Amigo or
>> > SS-80 protocols.
>> >
>> > I’d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time
>> finding
>> > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don’t talk,
>> so
>> > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5” DD
>> > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other
>> > 3.5” HPIB floppy drives.
>> >
>>
>

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2017-11-16 1:45 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:

On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:27 PM, Curious Marc  wrote:


I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use 
the newer drives.

Yes it does. I have an HP 85A, the PRM 85 and a 9122, and that combo works 
beautifully. I am not sure I ever tried it with high density diskettes though. 
I could check that if you want.


Thanks for confirming that, Marc. I just picked up my PRM-85 board today, and it 
looks like I should be able to purchase a couple of different models of HPIB 
3.5" floppy drives from other collectors soonish.

Has anybody gotten around to sharing CAD models for a 3D-printable PRM-85 case 
yet, or shall I get to work on that task?

I used the combination of B model ROMs to support SS/80 with a 9122C and 
it works fine.


Paul.

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Peter Corlett via cctalk]

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 09:44:24AM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> 3.5" MFM "High Density" (sometimes called "1.44M", due to the most common
> formsat being 1.41 Mebibytes, or 1.44 of a unit of 1000*1024 bytes), were
> 300 RPM at 500,000 bits per second.  (1M unformatted per side)

Another oddity for your collection: because the Amiga's floppy controller had a
500kHz maximum clock, they needed custom drives which slowed down to 150RPM
when they detected a "HD" disk.

Given the Amiga did read-modify-write of whole tracks rather than overwriting
individual sectors, the performance of those things was particularly bad.
Mercifully, nobody attemted to bodge a quarter-speed ED drive onto the Amiga.

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

Hi Eric,

It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C
ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board?

Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM mechanism.

Thanks!

Best regards,
Eric


On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" 
wrote:

> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out a
> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be cheaper
> for me to buy that instead.
>
> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use
> it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300.
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85?
> > >
> >
> > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :)
> >
> > I’ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement)
> > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the
> Extended
> > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A
> > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo
> or
> > SS-80 protocols.
> >
> > I’d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time
> finding
> > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don’t talk,
> so
> > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5” DD
> > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other
> > 3.5” HPIB floppy drives.
> >
>

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Fred Cisin wrote:

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive 
has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format.

;-)


"high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their 
capacity in a given format.  It is a BOGUS marketing term!

[...]

Fred, you should know by now that you don't need to tell *me* the 
correct definitions and terms.
And with "high-density", I didn't mean the media capacity but the analog 
recording aspects like coercivity, write current, frequency and so on.


configurations that result in the same final capacities, it is generally 
accepted as to WHICH kind of drive/controller configuration is meant by each 
of those names."400K" generally means Macintosh single sided, not DEC 
Rainbow, etc.


I disagree, that is not generally accepted, at least not any more, and 
this is good!


Unformatted capacity would be a more correct nomenclature, although not 
always precise, and relatively meaningless to the majority of users, who 
didn't CARE except for how much space was available to them.   Formatted 
capacity is generally between 40 and 60 percent of unformatted capacity.


Unformatted capacity doesn't tell you much without reference to the 
recording layout, i.e. no. of tracks, modulation, frequency and so on.



Some specifications:
8" FM "Single Density" was 360 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (about 500K 
unformatted per side)


8" MFM "Double Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second.  (about 1M 
unformatted per side)


I beg to differ. The raw bit rate is about the same. With FM, you have a
500kbits/s raw bit rate but half of the bits are clock bits. It is 
effectively the same density.


5.25" MFM "High Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about 1M 
unformatted per side)


What about 5¼" FM "High Density" at 360 RPM?

3.5" MFM "High Density" (sometimes called "1.44M", due to the most common 
formsat being 1.41 Mebibytes, or 1.44 of a unit of 1000*1024 bytes), were 300 
RPM at 500,000 bits per second.  (1M unformatted per side)


The Amiga (more exactly, the "HD" Chinon FZ-357A drives used in Amigas) 
switched to 150 RPM to keep the raw bit rate at 250kbits/s.


3.5" MFM "ED" (vertical recording?/barrium ferrite) were 300 RPM at 1,000,000 
bits per second.  (2M unformatted per side)  NeXT referred to theirs by the 
unformatted capacity: 4M, further confusing their users.


What about FM?

Your list just mixes two aspects that are not strictly correlated, 
raw recording density (bit rate) and data modulation (e.g. FM, MFM).



Can you name another 20 exceptions?   (Chuck and Tony probably can)


Do you want me to start with things like 100tpi drives, GCR, M²FM, 
hard-sectored and other crazy formats?


Just accept that I am not as dumb as you may think.

Christian

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Ed via cctalk]

PRM-85 ?  cost?
 
If  I end up getting   fascinated  with the   *%  I  may  want to  get one  
too..
First, I need to get it out and open and see what is all with it..
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/15/2017 5:45:42 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

It'd be  interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out a
board  for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be cheaper
for  me to buy that instead.

I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass  storage ROM so I can't use
it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my  9000 series 300.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via  cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
>  > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  

> wrote:
> >
> >  wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85?
> >
>
> I  think I can guess what you meant to say there... :)
>
> I’ve  ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement)
>  which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the  
Extended
> Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that  should let my A
> model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives  using either the Amigo 
or
> SS-80 protocols.
>
> I’d like to  get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time 
finding
> 1.44M  media than the older double density media. eBay and I don’t talk, 
so
>  that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5” DD
>  media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?)  other
> 3.5” HPIB floppy  drives.
>

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:27 PM, Curious Marc  wrote:
> 
>> I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it 
>> use the newer drives. 
> Yes it does. I have an HP 85A, the PRM 85 and a 9122, and that combo works 
> beautifully. I am not sure I ever tried it with high density diskettes 
> though. I could check that if you want.


Thanks for confirming that, Marc. I just picked up my PRM-85 board today, and 
it looks like I should be able to purchase a couple of different models of HPIB 
3.5" floppy drives from other collectors soonish.

Has anybody gotten around to sharing CAD models for a 3D-printable PRM-85 case 
yet, or shall I get to work on that task?

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Curious Marc via cctalk]

> I think that the upgraded B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it 
> use the newer drives. 
Yes it does. I have an HP 85A, the PRM 85 and a 9122, and that combo works 
beautifully. I am not sure I ever tried it with high density diskettes though. 
I could check that if you want.
Marc

On Nov 14, 2017, at 9:40 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk  
wrote:



> On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:33, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so 
> that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new 
> media hard to find... 

I am still new to this HP-85 stuff, but I think you are correct about the A 
model system not originally handling the 1.44M drive. I think that the upgraded 
B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. 

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Eric Schlaepfer  wrote:
> 
> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out a 
> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be cheaper 
> for me to buy that instead.
> 
> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use it 
> with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300.


I've just received my PRM-85, and it looks like I have leads on a couple of 
different floppy drives now. I'll be happy to share my experiences.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk]

It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out a
board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be cheaper
for me to buy that instead.

I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use
it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85?
> >
>
> I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :)
>
> I’ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement)
> which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the Extended
> Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A
> model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo or
> SS-80 protocols.
>
> I’d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time finding
> 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don’t talk, so
> that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5” DD
> media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other
> 3.5” HPIB floppy drives.
>

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Tapley, Mark via cctalk]

On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
wrote:

>  "400K" generally means Macintosh single sided, not DEC Rainbow, etc

For once, the physical format disambiguates those two! 
The Rainbow disks are in flexible envelopes (and ~1.75” greater diameter).
(Got many of each, couldn’t keep them straight otherwise ;-) )

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5"

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:

No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive has 
no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format.
;-)


"high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their 
capacity in a given format.  It is a BOGUS marketing term!




On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:

Bogus as it may be, compatible media for those drives commonly has "HD" printed 
on the box and molded into the diskette's plastic jacket. It's a useful term for 
identifying the compatible media.


Yes.

Sadly, the least ambiguous ways that we can describe what we mean require 
that we use BOGUS marketing deceptive names.

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Note that there were always some exceptions.
Weltec made a 5.25" drive at 180 RPM, to do "HIGH DENSITY"/"1.2M" at 
250,000 bits per second on PC/XT.


Sony made some 3.5" drives that were 600 RPM, to use 500,000 bits per 
second.


NEC used 360 RPM 3.5" drives, to have the same format structure on their 8" 
"DOUBLE DENSITY", 5.25" "HIGH DENSITY", and 3.5" "HIGH DENSITY". Sometimes 
called "Type 3"


Epson (Geneva PX-8) used a 3.5" with 67.5 tpi, instead of the common 135tpi

Can you name another 20 exceptions?   (Chuck and Tony probably can)


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
HP used 3.5" drives made by Sony that rotated at 600 RPM twice the data rate 
but same density.


One of my favorite examples; mentioned about a dozen lines up!

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 09:44, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>>> No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5"
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
>> No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive 
>> has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format.
>> ;-)
> 
> "high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their 
> capacity in a given format.  It is a BOGUS marketing term!


Bogus as it may be, compatible media for those drives commonly has "HD" printed 
on the box and molded into the diskette's plastic jacket. It's a useful term 
for identifying the compatible media.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2017-11-15 1:44 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5"

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A 
drive has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format.

;-)


"high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by 
their capacity in a given format.  It is a BOGUS marketing term!


Referring to a drive by the capacity of most commonly used format for 
that configuration is indeed inaccurate, but less ambiguous than 
adopting the marketing terminology.  MOST people will successfully 
understand what is meant by "360K", "720K", "400K", "800K', "1.2M", 
"1.44M" (which is just plain wrong, and SHOULD be "1.4M"), "2.88M", 
even though such names are not technically accurate.  Although there 
can be, AND ARE, some different configurations that result in the same 
final capacities, it is generally accepted as to WHICH kind of 
drive/controller configuration is meant by each of those names.    
"400K" generally means Macintosh single sided, not DEC Rainbow, etc.



Unformatted capacity would be a more correct nomenclature, although 
not always precise, and relatively meaningless to the majority of 
users, who didn't CARE except for how much space was available to 
them.   Formatted capacity is generally between 40 and 60 percent of 
unformatted capacity.



The early drives in the current branch of evolution (ignoring NRZI, 
phase-modulated, etc.) were "FM" (Frequency-Modulated).


The next innovation was to leave out clock pulses that could be 
interpolated instead of explicitly included, resulting in a "less 
crowded" signal, which could handle being done at twice the data 
transfer rate. The engineers called that "MFM" (Modified Frequency 
Modulation), which was not an optimum choice, since other modulations 
were possible, including the later MMFM (Modified Modified Frequency 
Modulation).  The MARKETING people called the current recording system 
"DOUBLE DENSITY". Intertec/Superbrain called their "DOUBLE 
DENSITY"/double-sided, "QUAD DENSITY"; although twice the CAPACITY, 
the density was unchanged.   When drives became available that had 
twice the number of tracks (96tpi 5.25"), marketing called that "QUAD 
DENSITY".  Although twice the CAPACITY, the density was unchanged.   
Intertec/Superbarin had already used the name "QUAD DENSITY" for their 
DSDD disks, so THEY, and ONLY Intertec/Superbrain called the 96tpi 
DSDD, "SUPER DENSITY", which they abbreviated "SD", in order to be 
confused with "SINGLE DENSITY".



AFTER "DOUBLE DENSITY" came into being, the previous system becaame 
known as "SINGLE DENSITY".  I say that it is analogous to the way the 
"Great War" became known as "World War One" AFTER discussion of "World 
War Two" began.  Note that archival searches show that "World War Two" 
as a search term has earlier hits in archives than does "World War One".
Fortunately, Kennedy's obsession over Cuba, and Nikita's 
disappointment over being denied admission to Disneyland did not 
result in World War Three.  Yet.



When improvement in media and drives permitted doubling the data 
transfer rate, with the same recording method, MARKETING called that 
"HIGH DENSITY".  Note that "HIGH DENSITY" IS "DOUBLE DENSITY", merely 
with twice the data transfer rate.


When Barrium-Ferrite disks, and perpendicular recording were 
developed, they were capable of twice the bit density on the disk, so 
the data transfer rate was doubled again.  MARKETING called that 
"EXTENDED DENSITY".
(cf. sizes of olives: "giant", "enormous", "huge", etc.  There was a 
comedic few minute documtary about that 45? years ago)



Some specifications:
8" FM "Single Density" was 360 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (about 
500K unformatted per side)


8" MFM "Double Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about 
1M unformatted per side)


5.25" FM "Single Density" was 300 RPM at 125,000 bits per second. 
(about 125K unformatted per side)


5.25" MFM "Double Density" was 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. 
(about 250K unformatted per side with 48 tpi, about 500K unformatted 
with 96tpi)


5.25" MFM "High Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. 
(about 1M unformatted per side)


In 5.25" 360 RPM drives that were not capable of switching to 300 RPM, 
5.25" MFM "Double Density" in a 360 RPM drive was 300,000 bits per 
second.


The 3" MFM disks that I have seen were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per 
second.

(500K unformatted per side)

3.25" MFM disks were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second.
(500K unformatted per side)

3.5" MFM "Double Density" (sometimes called "720K" due to the most 
common format, or "400K"/"800K" at Apple) were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits 
per second.  (500K unformatted per side)


3.5" MFM "High Density" (sometimes called "1.44M", due to the most 
common formsat being 1.41 Mebibytes, or 1.44 of a unit of 1000*1024 
bytes), were 300 

Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5"

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive has 
no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format.

;-)


"high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their 
capacity in a given format.  It is a BOGUS marketing term!


Referring to a drive by the capacity of most commonly used format for that 
configuration is indeed inaccurate, but less ambiguous than adopting the 
marketing terminology.  MOST people will successfully understand what is 
meant by "360K", "720K", "400K", "800K', "1.2M", "1.44M" (which is just 
plain wrong, and SHOULD be "1.4M"), "2.88M", even though such names are 
not technically accurate.  Although there can be, AND ARE, some different 
configurations that result in the same final capacities, it is generally 
accepted as to WHICH kind of drive/controller configuration is meant by 
each of those names."400K" generally means Macintosh single sided, not 
DEC Rainbow, etc.



Unformatted capacity would be a more correct nomenclature, although not 
always precise, and relatively meaningless to the majority of users, who 
didn't CARE except for how much space was available to them.   Formatted 
capacity is generally between 40 and 60 percent of unformatted capacity.



The early drives in the current branch of evolution (ignoring NRZI, 
phase-modulated, etc.) were "FM" (Frequency-Modulated).


The next innovation was to leave out clock pulses that could be 
interpolated instead of explicitly included, resulting in a "less crowded" 
signal, which could handle being done at twice the data transfer rate. 
The engineers called that "MFM" (Modified Frequency Modulation), which was 
not an optimum choice, since other modulations were possible, including 
the later MMFM (Modified Modified Frequency Modulation).  The MARKETING 
people called the current recording system "DOUBLE DENSITY". 
Intertec/Superbrain called their "DOUBLE DENSITY"/double-sided, "QUAD 
DENSITY"; although twice the CAPACITY, the density was unchanged.   When 
drives became available that had twice the number of tracks (96tpi 
5.25"), marketing called that "QUAD DENSITY".  Although twice the 
CAPACITY, the density was unchanged.   Intertec/Superbarin had already 
used the name "QUAD DENSITY" for their DSDD disks, so THEY, and ONLY 
Intertec/Superbrain called the 96tpi DSDD, "SUPER DENSITY", which they 
abbreviated "SD", in order to be confused with "SINGLE DENSITY".



AFTER "DOUBLE DENSITY" came into being, the previous system becaame known 
as "SINGLE DENSITY".  I say that it is analogous to the way the "Great 
War" became known as "World War One" AFTER discussion of "World War Two" 
began.  Note that archival searches show that "World War Two" as a search 
term has earlier hits in archives than does "World War One".
Fortunately, Kennedy's obsession over Cuba, and Nikita's disappointment 
over being denied admission to Disneyland did not result in World War 
Three.  Yet.



When improvement in media and drives permitted doubling the data transfer 
rate, with the same recording method, MARKETING called that "HIGH 
DENSITY".  Note that "HIGH DENSITY" IS "DOUBLE DENSITY", merely with 
twice the data transfer rate.


When Barrium-Ferrite disks, and perpendicular recording were developed, 
they were capable of twice the bit density on the disk, so the data 
transfer rate was doubled again.  MARKETING called that "EXTENDED 
DENSITY".
(cf. sizes of olives: "giant", "enormous", "huge", etc.  There was a 
comedic few minute documtary about that 45? years ago)



Some specifications:
8" FM "Single Density" was 360 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (about 500K 
unformatted per side)


8" MFM "Double Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second.  (about 1M 
unformatted per side)


5.25" FM "Single Density" was 300 RPM at 125,000 bits per second. (about 
125K unformatted per side)


5.25" MFM "Double Density" was 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second. (about 
250K unformatted per side with 48 tpi, about 500K unformatted with 96tpi)


5.25" MFM "High Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about 1M 
unformatted per side)


In 5.25" 360 RPM drives that were not capable of switching to 300 RPM, 
5.25" MFM "Double Density" in a 360 RPM drive was 300,000 bits per second.


The 3" MFM disks that I have seen were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second.
(500K unformatted per side)

3.25" MFM disks were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per second.
(500K unformatted per side)

3.5" MFM "Double Density" (sometimes called "720K" due to the most common 
format, or "400K"/"800K" at Apple) were 300 RPM at 250,000 bits per 
second.  (500K unformatted per side)


3.5" MFM "High Density" (sometimes called "1.44M", due to the most common 
formsat being 1.41 Mebibytes, or 1.44 of a unit of 1000*1024 bytes), were 
300 RPM at 500,000 bits per second.  (1M unformatted per side)

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 09:33, Paul Berger via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 720K media is pretty easy to get as well, I bought 100 "used" disks from 
> floppydisk.com, and it is hard to tell they have ever been used and I have 
> not had any problems with them.  I also bought a lot on eBay that where 
> previously used on an Amiga that majority of them where OK and the where a 
> mix of single and double sided media.

That's good to know. I'll check them out. That should open up my options, as 
well as giving me a way to get more media for machines like my Amigas and early 
Macs.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

720K media is pretty easy to get as well, I bought 100 "used" disks from 
floppydisk.com, and it is hard to tell they have ever been used and I 
have not had any problems with them.  I also bought a lot on eBay that 
where previously used on an Amiga that majority of them where OK and the 
where a mix of single and double sided media.


Paul.


On 2017-11-15 12:26 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:



On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:

wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85?


I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :)

I’ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) which 
includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the Extended Mass 
Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A model use 
the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo or SS-80 
protocols.

I’d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time finding 
1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don’t talk, so that 
limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5” DD media, then I 
would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other 3.5” HPIB floppy 
drives.

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2017-11-15 12:40 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:

On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:33, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:

ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so 
that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new media 
hard to find...

I am still new to this HP-85 stuff, but I think you are correct about the A 
model system not originally handling the 1.44M drive. I think that the upgraded 
B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives.



With something like a PRM-85 and the 85B mass storage, E disk and 
extended mass Storage you can support SS80 devices such as the 9122C.  I 
believe that the gentleman that created the PRM-80 distributes a 
configuration for this exact purpose.  When I had an 85A I created my 
own card for these ROMs and others and made my design available.


Paul.

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[william degnan via cctalk]

FYI - I checked related to the HP 85 IEEE port I have an Microcomputer
Systems Corporation MSE 9800 and an HP 9122S
b

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > On Nov 15, 2017, at 01:31, Christian Corti via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A
> drive has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format.
> > ;-)
>
> Ah! That's technically correct, which is, of course, the best kind of
> correct.
>
> Well, if we're being pedantic, then we might also refer to the drives by
> their unformatted capacity, as HP themselves sometimes did:
>
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOr81HpVQAAn-X5.jpg
>
> That makes them 2-Mbyte drives. ;-)
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 01:31, Christian Corti via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive has 
> no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format.
> ;-)

Ah! That's technically correct, which is, of course, the best kind of correct.

Well, if we're being pedantic, then we might also refer to the drives by their 
unformatted capacity, as HP themselves sometimes did:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOr81HpVQAAn-X5.jpg

That makes them 2-Mbyte drives. ;-)

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:

No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5"


No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A drive 
has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format.

;-)

Christian

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 10:57 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> you have me real curious,as to what is in that padded hp case..


What are you referring to?


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

you have me real curious,as to what is in that padded hp case..

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk  
wrote:


> 

On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:44, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> remember too.. there were hpib 8 inch and 5 inch drives wish I had saved 
> some!!!

Those would certainly interest me if I happen upon any at a price that I like. 
Same goes for an HPIB 9 track tape drive. But since the HP Series 80 stuff lies 
more towards the fringes of my interests at this time, I have a hunch that I am 
not too likely to find one of those at a price I would like to pay any time 
soon. Naturally, I’m more prone to pay real money for things closer to my core 
interests. But if I do happen upon any of that sort of gear at the right time, 
place, and price, then that will be really cool. Sometimes I surprise myself. I 
never expected to be interested in the DG Nova until I stumbled over a chance 
to buy one along with a PDP-11/03 system that interested me more at the time. 
Now I am glad that I have that cool Nova system, even though I still haven’t 
managed to get it talking to its hard drive. 

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

yeah I need a,hpib 7970e for our hp 3000 37.. I have back up tapes of the 
killer 100 board bbs system w/ chat, email, vote and poll and nay me 
features. I found a printout if source too  but no way gonna,try to reenter 
it...  somewhere I have the earlier hp 2000 version of this bbs system but as 
in remember tapes not as well stored..

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk  
wrote:


> 

On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:44, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> remember too.. there were hpib 8 inch and 5 inch drives wish I had saved 
> some!!!

Those would certainly interest me if I happen upon any at a price that I like. 
Same goes for an HPIB 9 track tape drive. But since the HP Series 80 stuff lies 
more towards the fringes of my interests at this time, I have a hunch that I am 
not too likely to find one of those at a price I would like to pay any time 
soon. Naturally, I’m more prone to pay real money for things closer to my core 
interests. But if I do happen upon any of that sort of gear at the right time, 
place, and price, then that will be really cool. Sometimes I surprise myself. I 
never expected to be interested in the DG Nova until I stumbled over a chance 
to buy one along with a PDP-11/03 system that interested me more at the time. 
Now I am glad that I have that cool Nova system, even though I still haven’t 
managed to get it talking to its hard drive. 

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:44, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> remember too.. there were hpib 8 inch and 5 inch drives wish I had saved 
> some!!!

Those would certainly interest me if I happen upon any at a price that I like. 
Same goes for an HPIB 9 track tape drive. But since the HP Series 80 stuff lies 
more towards the fringes of my interests at this time, I have a hunch that I am 
not too likely to find one of those at a price I would like to pay any time 
soon. Naturally, I’m more prone to pay real money for things closer to my core 
interests. But if I do happen upon any of that sort of gear at the right time, 
place, and price, then that will be really cool. Sometimes I surprise myself. I 
never expected to be interested in the DG Nova until I stumbled over a chance 
to buy one along with a PDP-11/03 system that interested me more at the time. 
Now I am glad that I have that cool Nova system, even though I still haven’t 
managed to get it talking to its hard drive. 

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

our computer company in az... computer exchange inc helped gemilogical inst. of 
America dispose of  their hp 86 and 87 computers...  wish I had saved one of 
each..

we have a hp 85 in a padded tote case at smecc museum here.. we need to fire it 
up.

one thing I would like to find us a rack mount 85... always wanted one. 
back in the old days.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk  
wrote:


> 

On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:33, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so 
> that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new 
> media hard to find... 

I am still new to this HP-85 stuff, but I think you are correct about the A 
model system not originally handling the 1.44M drive. I think that the upgraded 
B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. 

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

remember too.. there were hpib 8 inch and 5 inch drives wish I had saved 
some!!!

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk  
wrote:


> 

On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:33, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so 
> that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new 
> media hard to find... 

I am still new to this HP-85 stuff, but I think you are correct about the A 
model system not originally handling the 1.44M drive. I think that the upgraded 
B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. 

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:33, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so 
> that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new 
> media hard to find... 

I am still new to this HP-85 stuff, but I think you are correct about the A 
model system not originally handling the 1.44M drive. I think that the upgraded 
B model ROMs in the PRM-85 are supposed to let it use the newer drives. 

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

ok back in my day.. I do not think 85 adressed modern drive of 1.44 meg..? so 
that was what I was going on.. yes if you can use 1.44 do so.. older new media 
hard to find... 

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk  
wrote:


> 

On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85?
> 

I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :)

I’ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) which 
includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the Extended Mass 
Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A model use 
the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo or SS-80 
protocols.

I’d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time finding 
1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don’t talk, so that 
limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5” DD media, then I 
would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other 3.5” HPIB floppy 
drives. 

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85?
> 

I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :)

I’ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) which 
includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the Extended Mass 
Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A model use 
the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo or SS-80 
protocols.

I’d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time finding 
1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don’t talk, so that 
limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5” DD media, then I 
would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other 3.5” HPIB floppy 
drives. 

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85?

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk  
wrote:

> 

On Nov 14, 2017, at 7:24 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> try 9121 drives!!!. ed!

No, thanks. I'd like a 9122C drive.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

there was also a hard drive with the local density floppy in it too 

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Ed Sharpe via cctalk  
wrote:
try 9121 drives!!!. ed!

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk  
wrote:

> 

On Nov 14, 2017, at 5:24 PM, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> Those drives are 720 each 3.5".

No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" drive 
units with either 360k or 720k drive capacities.

I don't have a compatible IEEE-488 card for use with the HPDrive software. I'm 
curious about the open source hp85disk project, and might build hardware to 
work with it sometime. In any case, I'm interested in getting a 9122C drive.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 7:24 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> try 9121 drives!!!. ed!

No, thanks. I'd like a 9122C drive.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

try 9121 drives!!!. ed!

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 Mark J. Blair via cctalk  
wrote:

> 

On Nov 14, 2017, at 5:24 PM, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> Those drives are 720 each 3.5".

No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" drive 
units with either 360k or 720k drive capacities.

I don't have a compatible IEEE-488 card for use with the HPDrive software. I'm 
curious about the open source hp85disk project, and might build hardware to 
work with it sometime. In any case, I'm interested in getting a 9122C drive.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 6:35 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Well I do have a surplus 9122C however only one drive works and I am on the 
> other side of the continent.

Hmm, I'll consider yours if a more workinger one doesn't appear. That 
locational thing can be solved if you're willing to pack and ship. Do you have 
any idea what might be wrong with the second drive?


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

Well I do have a surplus 9122C however only one drive works and I am on 
the other side of the continent.


Paul.


On 2017-11-14 10:16 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:

On Nov 14, 2017, at 5:24 PM, william degnan  wrote:

Those drives are 720 each 3.5".

No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" drive 
units with either 360k or 720k drive capacities.

I don't have a compatible IEEE-488 card for use with the HPDrive software. I'm 
curious about the open source hp85disk project, and might build hardware to 
work with it sometime. In any case, I'm interested in getting a 9122C drive.

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 5:24 PM, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> Those drives are 720 each 3.5".

No, the 9122C model has two 1.44M drives. HP made several earlier 3.5" drive 
units with either 360k or 720k drive capacities.

I don't have a compatible IEEE-488 card for use with the HPDrive software. I'm 
curious about the open source hp85disk project, and might build hardware to 
work with it sometime. In any case, I'm interested in getting a 9122C drive.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

If your old IBM PC IEEE 488 card is one that is compatible with HPDrive 
http://hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ you can use it to emulate a 
wide variety of HPIB storage several of which are compatible with the 80 
series machines.  I am using the Linux version on a Pentium II based 
industrial computer with ISA National Instruments cards and it out 
performs a real 9135C by quite a bit.


Paul.

On 2017-11-14 9:24 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote:

Can you use one of those with the old IBM PC IEEE interface card?.  Has
this been covered here? I did not check but I guess the answer would be
maybe.  Those drives are 720 each 3.5".
Bill

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


I just got my HP-85 working for the first time over the weekend (except
for its tape drive, which is still a work in progress). I'd like to acquire
some accessories for it:

1) HP 82903A 16k RAM module

2) HP 9122C dual 1.44M 3.2" floppy diskette drive

Do any of y'all have either of those items available for swap or sale? I'm
located in southern California.

Those two items are at the top of my HP-85 want list, but I might also be
interested in other related bits such as the 82940A GPIO Interface, other
compatible HPIB mass storage, etc.

--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[william degnan via cctalk]

Can you use one of those with the old IBM PC IEEE interface card?.  Has
this been covered here? I did not check but I guess the answer would be
maybe.  Those drives are 720 each 3.5".
Bill

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I just got my HP-85 working for the first time over the weekend (except
> for its tape drive, which is still a work in progress). I'd like to acquire
> some accessories for it:
>
> 1) HP 82903A 16k RAM module
>
> 2) HP 9122C dual 1.44M 3.2" floppy diskette drive
>
> Do any of y'all have either of those items available for swap or sale? I'm
> located in southern California.
>
> Those two items are at the top of my HP-85 want list, but I might also be
> interested in other related bits such as the 82940A GPIO Interface, other
> compatible HPIB mass storage, etc.
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

I just got my HP-85 working for the first time over the weekend (except for its 
tape drive, which is still a work in progress). I'd like to acquire some 
accessories for it:

1) HP 82903A 16k RAM module

2) HP 9122C dual 1.44M 3.2" floppy diskette drive

Do any of y'all have either of those items available for swap or sale? I'm 
located in southern California.

Those two items are at the top of my HP-85 want list, but I might also be 
interested in other related bits such as the 82940A GPIO Interface, other 
compatible HPIB mass storage, etc.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/