Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-05 Thread Ulrich Tagge via cctalk 



Output:
.SET DU CSR=17760340
?DU-W-Patch handler bootstrap, put CSR at 3264

As you may have already learned, use only 16bit addresses for this.

Hi Jerry,

Thanks, you found the failure! (it's always the same with Copy and Paste).
After I have corrected this to 160340 and afterwards all was running 
fine, and I was able to INIT the Disk.
A format was still not possible, but I think this is normal and works as 
designed?!


Last step was to set the adapter CSR to the MSCP default, to bypass 
further issues due to the non default CSR.
As there is at the moment no plan for additional MSCP adapter in this 
PDP, it will be fine.


After this change I was needed to restore the original DU.SYS, as 
booting was not possible, and a SYSGEN is by now not an option. (will 
look at it later on, to understand a bit more about)

>>
?BOOT-U-▒Conflicting SYSGEN options
>>

Now I have managed to boot from the SCSI disk, which is a great result.

>>>
Trying DU0

Starting system from DU0


RT-11SJ (S) V04.00I

.SET TT QUIET
?KMON-F-File not found SY:RTPRES.SAV
?KMON-F-File not found SY:DATE.SAV
?KMON-F-Illegal device VW:
?KMON-F-Illegal device BS:
?KMON-F-Illegal device HC:

.DIR

US.SYS 7  26-Nov-91  TT.SYS 2  26-Nov-91
DL.SYS 4  26-Nov-91  DU.SYS 4  26-Nov-91
RK.SYS 3  26-Nov-91  DY.SYS 4  26-Nov-91
DX.SYS 3  26-Nov-91  LP.SYS 2  26-Nov-91
SC.SYS 5  26-Nov-91  HC.SYS 5  26-Nov-91
BS.SYS 3  26-Nov-91  VW.SYS 2  26-Nov-91
NL.SYS 2  26-Nov-91  LS.SYS 2  26-Nov-91
SCMEV .SYS 5  26-Nov-91  SCVS11.SYS 4  26-Nov-91
SCEVA .SYS 4  26-Nov-91  LPMEV .SYS 2  26-Nov-91
LPLXY .SYS 2  26-Nov-91  LPSID .SYS 2  26-Nov-91
LPEVA .SYS 2  26-Nov-91  MS.SYS10  26-Nov-91
MM.SYS 9  26-Nov-91  HC7221.SYS 4  26-Nov-91
HC7220.SYS 5  26-Nov-91  HC722T.SYS 5  26-Nov-91
US460 .SYS 7  26-Nov-91  US410 .SYS 7  26-Nov-91
HC7580.SYS 5  26-Nov-91  HC7550.SYS 5  26-Nov-91
HC7475.SYS 5  26-Nov-91  HC722C.SYS 5  26-Nov-91
SCMPR .SYS 5  26-Nov-91  DUORG .SYS 4  26-Nov-91
STARTS.COM 1  26-Nov-91  PIP   .SAV23  26-Nov-91
DIR   .SAV17  26-Nov-91  DUP   .SAV41  26-Nov-91
RESORC.SAV15  26-Nov-91  FORMAT.SAV19  26-Nov-91
SWAP  .SYS25  26-Nov-91  RT11SJ.SYS65  26-Nov-91
CHKPNT.SYS   412  09-Aug-94
 43 Files, 763 Blocks
 58469 Free blocks
>>


So next step is to look at a newer RT11 version, and try to install all 
from scratch.


Again many thanks!
Have a nice Weekend
Ulrich

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-04 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk 

> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Jerry,
>> You’ve made pretty good progress.
> Yes with the right input and help this can happen. ;-)
> And all the help is much appreciated!

Glad to share.

>> 
>> If you haven’t already, Google for and look at the manual for the SQ739. I 
>> think you will find that most of the
>> commands for the on-board diagnostics are the same.  The unibus controller 
>> will have a
>> different layout and perhaps a physical vector switch, but you should be 
>> able to sort out the differences.
>> 
> Not done by now, but is now noted and on the plan for the weekend, I'm also 
> interested to know about the jumper settings as there are some of them

Fortunately the vendor likely used the same firmware for several models and 
across Q + Unibus.  

> .
>> 
>> What version of RT11 do you have?  The later versions would show the
>> CSR that the hander is set to.
> Its: RT-11SJ (S) V04.00I ... quite old.

Each different version of RT11 has its own charms.   In V4 the device handler 
was no longer
bound directly to the OS Monitor.  No more compiling a new monitor for each new 
device.

> 
>>  
>> You mention a RC25.  Is that on another machine? If you have two MSCP
>> controllers in the same backplane (KLESI? + SU723) then that is more complex.
>> 
>> My guidance below assumes the SU723 and a bootable RX02 device are
>> the only disks.  Do not follow if you have two MSCP controllers installed.
> That's the right assumption, I have two /84 one with lesi and working RC25 
> where I have created the Floppy disks, and a playground mostly empty, but now 
> equipped with SCSI and RX211.
>> The address 160340 is not what is normally expected “standard” CSR for a 
>> MSCP.
>> Its is easy to change the handler address.
>> 
>> First make a copy of the DU.SYS handler to preserve it.
>> 
>>copy/sys du.sys duorg.sys
> Done
>> The set the CSR that you are using
>> 
>>set du csr=160340
> Output:
> .SET DU CSR=17760340
> ?DU-W-Patch handler bootstrap, put CSR at 3264

As you may have already learned, use only 16bit addresses for this.

> 
>> Try vector address 154 first, unless you know the board is configured 
>> differently.
>> It appears already set for this, but here is how you change it.
>> 
>>set du vector=154
> Output:
> .SET DU VECTOR=154
> 
> .
>> You should then be able to install and load the handler.
>> 
>> install du
> Output:
> .INSTALL DU
> .
>> load du
> Output:
> .LOAD DU
> 
>> Depending on the DU handler, it is possible to map a large MSCP image to 
>> multiple
>> partitions.  If the handler installs, try the following.  It show a basic 
>> mapping.
>> Single controller, single drive and in this case 8 partitions.   The first 
>> partition
>> should be the same as below.  An RZ22 would normally only have space
>> sufficient for 1 partition.
>> 
>> show de:du
>> 
>> DeviceStatus   CSR Vector(s)
>>-- --   ---
>> -
>>  DU Resident172150   154
>> 
>>  DU0: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  0
>>  DU1: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  1
>>  DU2: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  2
>>  DU3: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  3
>>  DU4: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  4
>>  DU5: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  5
>>  DU6: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  6
>>  DU7: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  7
> Output:
> .SHOW DE:DU
> ?KMON-F-Illegal command
> .SHOW DEV:DU
> ?KMON-F-Illegal command
> 
> (RT11 Version to old?)

Yes, bummer but not a blocking gap.

> 
> 
> .SHOW DEV
> 
> Device  Status   Vector
> ---
>  US  Not installed  410
>  DL  Not installed  160
>  RK  Not installed  220
>  DY  Resident   264
>  DX  Not installed  264
>  LP  146676 200 204
>  SC  143332 000
>  HC  Not installed  330 334
>  BS  Not installed  300 304
>  VW  Not installed  270 274
>  NL  Installed  000
>  LS  Installed  200 204
>  MS  Not installed  224
>  MM  Not installed  224
> *  DU  141440 154*
> 
> So something happens and we have a first progress.
> 
>> Since you already did a SCSI format from the controller or if the drive
>> was previously formatted, you will not need to repeat this. The RT11 FORMAT
>> command does NOT support this as an MSCP device.  Note: the handler can be
>> configured to more partitions and disk space than actually exist on the 
>> drive.
>> 
>> You can examine the contents of the drive to see if it readable.
>> 
>> dump/term du0:/end:1
> Dump is unfortunately not available on my disk by

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-04 Thread Ulrich Tagge via cctalk 

Hi Jerry,

You’ve made pretty good progress.

Yes with the right input and help this can happen. ;-)
And all the help is much appreciated!


If you haven’t already, Google for and look at the manual for the SQ739. I 
think you will find that most of the
commands for the on-board diagnostics are the same.  The unibus controller will 
have a
different layout and perhaps a physical vector switch, but you should be able 
to sort out the differences.

Not done by now, but is now noted and on the plan for the weekend, I'm 
also interested to know about the jumper settings as there are some of them.


What version of RT11 do you have?  The later versions would show the
CSR that the hander is set to.

Its: RT-11SJ (S) V04.00I ... quite old.

  


You mention a RC25.  Is that on another machine? If you have two MSCP
controllers in the same backplane (KLESI? + SU723) then that is more complex.

My guidance below assumes the SU723 and a bootable RX02 device are
the only disks.  Do not follow if you have two MSCP controllers installed.
That's the right assumption, I have two /84 one with lesi and working 
RC25 where I have created the Floppy disks, and a playground mostly 
empty, but now equipped with SCSI and RX211.

The address 160340 is not what is normally expected “standard” CSR for a MSCP.
Its is easy to change the handler address.

First make a copy of the DU.SYS handler to preserve it.

copy/sys du.sys duorg.sys

Done

The set the CSR that you are using

set du csr=160340

Output:
.SET DU CSR=17760340
?DU-W-Patch handler bootstrap, put CSR at 3264


Try vector address 154 first, unless you know the board is configured 
differently.
It appears already set for this, but here is how you change it.

set du vector=154

Output:
.SET DU VECTOR=154

.

You should then be able to install and load the handler.

 install du

Output:
.INSTALL DU
.

 load du

Output:
.LOAD DU


Depending on the DU handler, it is possible to map a large MSCP image to 
multiple
partitions.  If the handler installs, try the following.  It show a basic 
mapping.
Single controller, single drive and in this case 8 partitions.   The first 
partition
should be the same as below.  An RZ22 would normally only have space
sufficient for 1 partition.

 show de:du

 DeviceStatus   CSR Vector(s)
-- --   ----
  DU Resident172150   154

  DU0: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  0
  DU1: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  1
  DU2: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  2
  DU3: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  3
  DU4: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  4
  DU5: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  5
  DU6: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  6
  DU7: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  7

Output:
.SHOW DE:DU
?KMON-F-Illegal command
.SHOW DEV:DU
?KMON-F-Illegal command

(RT11 Version to old?)


.SHOW DEV

Device  Status   Vector
---
  US  Not installed  410
  DL  Not installed  160
  RK  Not installed  220
  DY  Resident   264
  DX  Not installed  264
  LP  146676 200 204
  SC  143332 000
  HC  Not installed  330 334
  BS  Not installed  300 304
  VW  Not installed  270 274
  NL  Installed  000
  LS  Installed  200 204
  MS  Not installed  224
  MM  Not installed  224
*  DU  141440 154*

So something happens and we have a first progress.


Since you already did a SCSI format from the controller or if the drive
was previously formatted, you will not need to repeat this. The RT11 FORMAT
command does NOT support this as an MSCP device.  Note: the handler can be
configured to more partitions and disk space than actually exist on the drive.

You can examine the contents of the drive to see if it readable.

 dump/term du0:/end:1
Dump is unfortunately not available on my disk by now, but will add 
them, when I have moved the RX02 back to the other PDP.

If the handler loads but doesn’t access the drive, check the vector address 
first.

Once you are sure the contents are not needed, you can try an initialize.


Good luck.

Jerry
j...@ieee.org


Is it maybe better to start with a newer version of RT11?
In the meantime I have managed to test RX02 Imaging with Joeg Hoppe's 
PDP11GUI. Works perfect and looks like a great tool.
If I load the MSCP driver via PDP11GUI and use address 160340 I can also 
dump the DU0 (RZ22) disk to my PC, so it seams to be working.


I have not found a newer RX02 RT11 Distribution Set by now, do you have 
some tip were I can find and download one?  Google doesn't return any 
rx02 files, only ready to use images for

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-04 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk 
> On Aug 3, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> All my 8" SSDD /SSSDdisks are non formatted, which was the reason for my 
> initial troubles.
> Nevertheless, my IBM System /23 (Type 5324) can format disks in three 
> different formats:
> 
> _1. IBM System /23 Format_
> 512 Bytes per Sector
> Possible Disk: SSSD, SSDD, DSDD
> 
> _2. Standard Format_
> 128 Bytes per Sector
> Possible Disk: SSSD, SSDD
> 
> _3. H- Format_
> 258 Bytes per Sector
> Possible Disk: DSDD
> 
> _So option 2_ was the right one, also when nothing in the docs point to the 
> IBM 3740 format.
> After booting the System/23 with the inserted maintenance Disk VOL002 the 
> formatter program can be started with the following command: link prepare
> 
> 
> By now I have 20 RX02 Disks formatted, and was also able to create a bootable 
> RT11 Disk via my running RT11 installation on my RC25.
> It is RT-11SJ (S) V04.00I ...
> >>>
> .FORMAT DY1:
> DY1:/FORMAT-Are you sure?Y
> ?FORMAT-I-Formatting complete
> <<<
> >>>
> .INIT/BAD DY1:
> DY1:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y
> ?DUP-I-No bad blocks detected DY1:
> <<<
> 
> Next step would be to install RT11 on my SCSI Disk, which is presented 
> through a Dilog SU726A as MSCP Device 0 (Address 160340 (will be 1760340 on 
> my PDP-11/84)) to the system.
> Disk is an DEC RZ22 and was also formatted and mapped, through the Dilog 
> "BIOS" (Jumper J14 in to boot Maintenance Address ... and @175000g followed 
> by FT)
> Now it looks like I need the SU726A manual, as I have no clue as which device 
> RT11 should recognize the Dilog, I assume DU0: but RT11 doesn't load the 
> Device.
> 

Hi Ulrich,
You’ve made pretty good progress.

If you haven’t already, Google for and look at the manual for the SQ739. I 
think you will find that most of the 
commands for the on-board diagnostics are the same.  The unibus controller will 
have a 
different layout and perhaps a physical vector switch, but you should be able 
to sort out the differences. 



> *SHOW DEV*
> 
> Device  Status   Vector
> ---
>  US  Not installed  410
>  DL  Not installed  160
>  DU  Not installed  154
>  RK  Not installed  220
>  DY  Resident   264
>  DX  Not installed  264
>  LP  146676 200 204
>  SC  143332 000
>  HC  Not installed  330 334
>  BS  Not installed  300 304
>  VW  Not installed  270 274
>  NL  Installed  000
>  LS  Installed  200 204
>  MS  Not installed  224
>  MM  Not installed  224

What version of RT11 do you have?  The later versions would show the 
CSR that the hander is set to.   

You mention a RC25.  Is that on another machine? If you have two MSCP 
controllers in the same backplane (KLESI? + SU723) then that is more complex.

My guidance below assumes the SU723 and a bootable RX02 device are
the only disks.  Do not follow if you have two MSCP controllers installed.

> 
> 
> 
> Any Hint how I get RT11 load the correct device so that I can format and init 
> the SCSI Disk?
> Is maybe Someone here with an Manual of the Dilog? A SU723 could be also 
> helpful, …


The address 160340 is not what is normally expected “standard” CSR for a MSCP. 
Its is easy to change the handler address.

First make a copy of the DU.SYS handler to preserve it.

   copy/sys du.sys duorg.sys 

The set the CSR that you are using

   set du csr=160340

Try vector address 154 first, unless you know the board is configured 
differently.
It appears already set for this, but here is how you change it.

   set du vector=154

You should then be able to install and load the handler.

install du
load du

Depending on the DU handler, it is possible to map a large MSCP image to 
multiple
partitions.  If the handler installs, try the following.  It show a basic 
mapping.
Single controller, single drive and in this case 8 partitions.   The first 
partition
should be the same as below.  An RZ22 would normally only have space
sufficient for 1 partition.

show de:du

DeviceStatus   CSR Vector(s)
   -- --   ----
 DU Resident172150   154

 DU0: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  0
 DU1: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  1
 DU2: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  2
 DU3: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  3
 DU4: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  4
 DU5: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  5
 DU6: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  6
 DU7: is set PORT =  0, UNIT =  0, PART =  7

Since you already did a SCSI format from the controller or if the drive 
was previously formatted, you will not need to repeat this. The

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-03 Thread Ulrich Tagge via cctalk 

Hi All,
All my 8" SSDD /SSSDdisks are non formatted, which was the reason for my 
initial troubles.
Nevertheless, my IBM System /23 (Type 5324) can format disks in three 
different formats:


_1. IBM System /23 Format_
512 Bytes per Sector
Possible Disk: SSSD, SSDD, DSDD

_2. Standard Format_
128 Bytes per Sector
Possible Disk: SSSD, SSDD

_3. H- Format_
258 Bytes per Sector
Possible Disk: DSDD

_So option 2_ was the right one, also when nothing in the docs point to 
the IBM 3740 format.
After booting the System/23 with the inserted maintenance Disk VOL002 
the formatter program can be started with the following command: link 
prepare



By now I have 20 RX02 Disks formatted, and was also able to create a 
bootable RT11 Disk via my running RT11 installation on my RC25.

It is RT-11SJ (S) V04.00I ...
>>>
.FORMAT DY1:
DY1:/FORMAT-Are you sure?Y
?FORMAT-I-Formatting complete
<<<
>>>
.INIT/BAD DY1:
DY1:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y
?DUP-I-No bad blocks detected DY1:
<<<

Next step would be to install RT11 on my SCSI Disk, which is presented 
through a Dilog SU726A as MSCP Device 0 (Address 160340 (will be 1760340 
on my PDP-11/84)) to the system.
Disk is an DEC RZ22 and was also formatted and mapped, through the Dilog 
"BIOS" (Jumper J14 in to boot Maintenance Address ... and @175000g 
followed by FT)
Now it looks like I need the SU726A manual, as I have no clue as which 
device RT11 should recognize the Dilog, I assume DU0: but RT11 doesn't 
load the Device.



*SHOW DEV*

Device  Status   Vector
---
  US  Not installed  410
  DL  Not installed  160
  DU  Not installed  154
  RK  Not installed  220
  DY  Resident   264
  DX  Not installed  264
  LP  146676 200 204
  SC  143332 000
  HC  Not installed  330 334
  BS  Not installed  300 304
  VW  Not installed  270 274
  NL  Installed  000
  LS  Installed  200 204
  MS  Not installed  224
  MM  Not installed  224
*
**.DIR*

SWAP  .SYS25  26-Nov-91  RT11SJ.SYS65  26-Nov-91
US.SYS 7  26-Nov-91  TT.SYS 2  26-Nov-91
DL.SYS 4  26-Nov-91  DU.SYS 4  26-Nov-91
RK.SYS 3  26-Nov-91  DY.SYS 4  26-Nov-91
DX.SYS 3  26-Nov-91  LP.SYS 2  26-Nov-91
SC.SYS 5  26-Nov-91  HC.SYS 5  26-Nov-91
BS.SYS 3  26-Nov-91  VW.SYS 2  26-Nov-91
NL.SYS 2  26-Nov-91  LS.SYS 2  26-Nov-91
SCMEV .SYS 5  26-Nov-91  SCVS11.SYS 4  26-Nov-91
SCEVA .SYS 4  26-Nov-91  LPMEV .SYS 2  26-Nov-91
LPLXY .SYS 2  26-Nov-91  LPSID .SYS 2  26-Nov-91
LPEVA .SYS 2  26-Nov-91  MS.SYS10  26-Nov-91
MM.SYS 9  26-Nov-91  HC7221.SYS 4  26-Nov-91
HC7220.SYS 5  26-Nov-91  HC722T.SYS 5  26-Nov-91
US460 .SYS 7  26-Nov-91  US410 .SYS 7  26-Nov-91
HC7580.SYS 5  26-Nov-91  HC7550.SYS 5  26-Nov-91
HC7475.SYS 5  26-Nov-91  HC722C.SYS 5  26-Nov-91
SCMPR .SYS 5  26-Nov-91  CHKPNT.SYS   412  09-Aug-94
STARTS.COM 1  26-Nov-91  PIP   .SAV23  26-Nov-91
DIR   .SAV17  26-Nov-91  DUP   .SAV41  26-Nov-91
RESORC.SAV15  26-Nov-91  FORMAT.SAV19  26-Nov-91
 42 Files, 759 Blocks
 215 Free blocks


Any Hint how I get RT11 load the correct device so that I can format and 
init the SCSI Disk?
Is maybe Someone here with an Manual of the Dilog? A SU723 could be also 
helpful, ... .


Many Greetings
Ulrich

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-02 Thread allison via cctalk 



On 8/2/17 8:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


On 8/1/17 10:36 PM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk wrote:


Looks like I was wrongly under the impression, that there is no way to 
reformat, disks to work in an RX02.

There is no way to low-level format disks on a DEC RX01 or RX02. The hardware 
doesn't support it in the controller
inside the DEC disk drive. DEC expected you to buy media from them.

You can do it with third-party controllers like Qbus Sigma, DSD, or MTI using 
standard Shugart interface disk drives.
Some also support "RX03" double-sided drives.

You could also clone a formatted double-density disks with a flux-level 
reader/writer board.





RX02 drives can "reformat" RX01 media to RX02.  So if you need RX02 
media any soft sector
single sided single density (26 by 128 byte sectored) will do.  I use my 
S100 CP/M system
to format media to that then the RX01 can be used to init (initialize 
directory) or reformat (to DD).

Least the PDP11 can.

Allison

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-02 Thread Ulrich Tagge via cctalk 

Hi All,

Have managed to find and pick a bunch of SSSD 8" Disks in my basement, 
and have formatted them now via the IBM /23.
Over the weekend I try the next step,and will "format" them under RT11. 
So fingers crossed, that my only running RT11 system, installed on an 
DEC RC25, will still boot.


Many Greetings
Ulrich

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-02 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk 
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Jay West via cctalk
 wrote:
> Assuming DEC hardware. ISTR that if you have one of the fairly common DSD 
> drives (ex DSD440/880) then you can in fact format the RX02 disks.
>

Also the SMS 1000 can low level format blank disks in RX01, RX02, and
RX03 format with its built-in controller and Tandon TM-848-2E drive. I
have one of those that I have used for that purpose.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sms/qbus/3001076A_SMS1000oem_Feb87.pdf

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-02 Thread Al Kossow via cctalk 
correct

that was how I've always low-level formatted RX02s, using 3rd party controllers.



On 8/2/17 9:46 AM, Jay West wrote:
> Eric (via AEK) wrote
> --
> "RX02 format uses single-density address fields even for double density. The 
> RX02 can "reformat" standard single-density into RX02 modified MFM format 
> just by rewriting all of the data fields.
> 
> It still can't low-level format a blank or MFM disk."
> 
> So you have to have a single-density IBM formatted disk which the RX02 can 
> convert
> --
> Assuming DEC hardware. ISTR that if you have one of the fairly common DSD 
> drives (ex DSD440/880) then you can in fact format the RX02 disks.
> 
> J
>

RE: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-02 Thread Jay West via cctalk 
Eric (via AEK) wrote
--
"RX02 format uses single-density address fields even for double density. The 
RX02 can "reformat" standard single-density into RX02 modified MFM format just 
by rewriting all of the data fields.

It still can't low-level format a blank or MFM disk."

So you have to have a single-density IBM formatted disk which the RX02 can 
convert
--
Assuming DEC hardware. ISTR that if you have one of the fairly common DSD 
drives (ex DSD440/880) then you can in fact format the RX02 disks.

J

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-02 Thread Al Kossow via cctalk 
ok, got this clarification from Eric Smith

"RX02 format uses single-density address fields even for double density. The 
RX02 can "reformat" standard single-density
into RX02 modified MFM format just by rewriting all of the data fields.

It still can't low-level format a blank or MFM disk."

So you have to have a single-density IBM formatted disk which the RX02 can 
convert


On 8/2/17 7:05 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Aug 2017, Al Kossow wrote:
>> There is no way to low-level format disks on a DEC RX01 or RX02. The 
>> hardware doesn't support it in the controller
>> inside the DEC disk drive. DEC expected you to buy media from them.
> 
> Not really. You can use any standard 3740 formatted disk (i.e. 26 
> sectors/track, 128 bytes/sector, 77 tracks, FM) and
> change it to RX02 formatting in an RX02 drive with
> .FORMAT DY0:
> or change it back to RX01 with
> .FORMAT/SINGLEDENSITY DY0:
> 
> In both cases you need to
> .INIT/BAD DY0:
> to create the directory.
> 
>> You could also clone a formatted double-density disks with a flux-level 
>> reader/writer board.
> 
> Only a /slight/ overkill...
> 
> Christian

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-02 Thread Christian Corti via cctalk 

On Wed, 2 Aug 2017, Al Kossow wrote:
There is no way to low-level format disks on a DEC RX01 or RX02. The 
hardware doesn't support it in the controller inside the DEC disk drive. 
DEC expected you to buy media from them.


Not really. You can use any standard 3740 formatted disk (i.e. 26 
sectors/track, 128 bytes/sector, 77 tracks, FM) and change it to RX02 
formatting in an RX02 drive with

.FORMAT DY0:
or change it back to RX01 with
.FORMAT/SINGLEDENSITY DY0:

In both cases you need to
.INIT/BAD DY0:
to create the directory.

You could also clone a formatted double-density disks with a flux-level 
reader/writer board.


Only a /slight/ overkill...

Christian

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-02 Thread Al Kossow via cctalk 


On 8/1/17 10:36 PM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk wrote:

> Looks like I was wrongly under the impression, that there is no way to 
> reformat, disks to work in an RX02.

There is no way to low-level format disks on a DEC RX01 or RX02. The hardware 
doesn't support it in the controller
inside the DEC disk drive. DEC expected you to buy media from them.

You can do it with third-party controllers like Qbus Sigma, DSD, or MTI using 
standard Shugart interface disk drives.
Some also support "RX03" double-sided drives.

You could also clone a formatted double-density disks with a flux-level 
reader/writer board.

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-02 Thread Ulrich Tagge via cctalk 

Hi All,

Looks like I was wrongly under the impression, that there is no way to 
reformat, disks to work in an RX02.
I have two working IBM System /23 with 8" Floppy drives, which can 
format also in IBM3740.
So when I have understood it correct, it could be worth to simply format 
an 8" SSSD Disk in 3740 format, followed by:

".FORMAT DY0:"

".INITIALIZE/BADBLOCKS DY0:"

under RT11 which will end up in an RX02 formatted disk - Correct?

Many Greetings
Ulrich

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-01 Thread Eric Smith via cctalk 
On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Are RX02 disks actually special or will any SSDD 8in floppy work?


TL;DR: No. As standard 8-inch floppy disks go, only SSSD are useful in an
RX02 drive, even for double-density use (DEC RX02 modified MFM format).


Any standard single-sided single-density (SSSD) 8-inch floppy (IBM 3740
format) will work in an RX02 drive, and can can be used for either single
or double density.  In principle media sold as single-density could be
marginal for DEC RX02 modified MFM format, but I've only ever seen that on
*really* awful quality disks.

A standard single-sided double-density (SSDD) 8-inch floppy will not work
in an RX02 drive, unless some other system is used to reformat it to
single-density. Arguably if one doesn't have true RX02 media, this is the
preferred way to make some, since media certified for standard MFM
double-density should be perfectly satisfactory for DEC RX02 modified MFM
format.

Standard double-sided 8-inch floppies (either DSSD or DSDD) will NOT work
in an RX02 drive, because double-sided 8-inch floppies have the index hole
in the jacket in a different place.  They could be used if one punches an
extra index hole in the jacket, and if double-density, another system is
used to reformat to single-density.

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-01 Thread william degnan via cctalk 
I have many RX02 disks, but shipping to Germany may be too expensive.  Let
me know if there is no local source.  I am located in Landenberg, PA USA
b

On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > I'm interested on RX02 Disks, and would be happy to get some of them, to
> > create RT11 installation and diagnostic disks.
> > I know there are RX01/02 emulators available, but I would like to use the
> > original way and equipment.
>
> Are RX02 disks actually special or will any SSDD 8in floppy work? I
> know the drives can't low level format a blank floppy, but since RX01
> is IBM 3740 and the RX02 can convert between RX01 and RX02 formats,
> isn't any IBM 3740 format disk sufficient for Ulrich needs?
>
> I've studied the RX01 and RX02 drives, but have never seen a real one.
>
> -chuck
>

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-01 Thread Charles Dickman via cctalk 
On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk
 wrote:
> I'm interested on RX02 Disks, and would be happy to get some of them, to
> create RT11 installation and diagnostic disks.
> I know there are RX01/02 emulators available, but I would like to use the
> original way and equipment.

Are RX02 disks actually special or will any SSDD 8in floppy work? I
know the drives can't low level format a blank floppy, but since RX01
is IBM 3740 and the RX02 can convert between RX01 and RX02 formats,
isn't any IBM 3740 format disk sufficient for Ulrich needs?

I've studied the RX01 and RX02 drives, but have never seen a real one.

-chuck

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-01 Thread william degnan via cctalk 
oops, Germany.


On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:08 PM, william degnan  wrote:

> where are you located?
>
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm interested on RX02 Disks, and would be happy to get some of them, to
>> create RT11 installation and diagnostic disks.
>> I know there are RX01/02 emulators available, but I would like to use the
>> original way and equipment.
>> Destination would be Germany.
>>
>> Many Greetings
>> Ulrich
>>
>
>

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-01 Thread william degnan via cctalk 
where are you located?

On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm interested on RX02 Disks, and would be happy to get some of them, to
> create RT11 installation and diagnostic disks.
> I know there are RX01/02 emulators available, but I would like to use the
> original way and equipment.
> Destination would be Germany.
>
> Many Greetings
> Ulrich
>

WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

2017-08-01 Thread Ulrich Tagge via cctalk 

Hi all,

I'm interested on RX02 Disks, and would be happy to get some of them, to 
create RT11 installation and diagnostic disks.
I know there are RX01/02 emulators available, but I would like to use 
the original way and equipment.

Destination would be Germany.

Many Greetings
Ulrich