Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Jul 16, 2021, at 6:30 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 2021-07-16 9:03 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 16, 2021, at 3:52 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> ...
>>> https://wiki.livingcomputers.org/
>> 
>> That produces a page load error.
>> 
>>paul
>> 
> 
> Loaded correctly for me.
> 
> --Toby

Interesting, a minute ago, it didn’t, now it loads.  Maybe it was just rebooted?

Zane 

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2021-07-16 9:03 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jul 16, 2021, at 3:52 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> https://wiki.livingcomputers.org/
> 
> That produces a page load error.
> 
>   paul
> 

Loaded correctly for me.

--Toby

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jul 16, 2021, at 3:52 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> ...
> https://wiki.livingcomputers.org/

That produces a page load error.

paul

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Chris Zach wrote:
> Anyone know if the LCM will be open this summer? I'm going to be in
> Seattle for a day in August, wouldn't mind stopping by and seeing how
> it was doing

Still closed for on site visitors:
https://livingcomputers.org/Closure.aspx

But they haven't shut down all operations.  All along they have been
offering remote access to vintage systems, some of which are real
hardware and some migrated to emulators:

ssh m...@tty.livingcomputers.org
https://wiki.livingcomputers.org/

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Alexander Schreiber via cctalk]

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 04:22:52PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Ah however in the door pocket there is a letter stating that if Paul ever
> got tired of the system or the museum closed that I would come and pick it
> up again.
> 
> Done this a number of times. It kind of gets old, but I really thought Paul
> Allen wouldn't run out of money or interest. Go figure.

Neither of that happened, he sadly ran out of life. And apparently hadn't
set up things to enable them to survive him (whatever an appropriate
legal structure would have been - IANAL).

Kind regards,
Alex.

> 
> C
> 
> On 5/24/2021 4:07 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> > On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> > 
> > > > Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now
> > > > all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no.  They'd basically
> > > > need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM,
> > > > Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after
> > > > Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than
> > > > reopening.
> > > > 
> > > > I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor.
> > > 
> > > Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there
> > > and a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it?
> > > 
> > You think they'll give it back? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  Five bucks says it
> > all goes to a recycler because it's "easier" for his lazy f*cking sister
> > to do it that way.
> > 
> > g.
> > 

-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."  -- Thomas A. Edison

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

That guy is…  How shall I put it?  An ass!  He doesn’t even like people linking 
to his site.  Years ago, I had a page linking to his RSX BBS website, and he 
set it up so anyone following my link would get redirected to some obscene 
website.  I think that this was 20+ years ago.

The minute I read what you wrote, I figured it was him, so I went looking.  I 
didn’t even realize he was still around.

What are you looking for?  I might have a copy.

Zane



> On May 31, 2021, at 4:47 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> True. I was looking for a document [1] from www.miim.com 
>  just the other  day. I know it used to be available 
> because I had previously saved a few other docs from there, just not this 
> one. But it's gone and archive.org  won't serve it up (I 
> did find the site owner's account of his battle with archive.org 
>  to sto pserving copies of his stuff ... ironically on 
> another archive site!)
> 
> [1] The RSX FAQ, in case anyone else was more diligent than I was!
> 
> 
> Antonio

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 31/05/2021 23:55, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Sure, Library of Alexadria, lots of examples through history. Oddly 
enough people like to find this stuff, centralize it somewhere, then 
burn it to the ground.


Go figure. And make sure all of your stuff is backed up all over the 
place, it's amazing how it can all wind up on one guy's FTP server 
that vanishes


True. I was looking for a document [1] from www.miim.com just the other  
day. I know it used to be available because I had previously saved a few 
other docs from there, just not this one. But it's gone and archive.org 
won't serve it up (I did find the site owner's account of his battle 
with archive.org to sto pserving copies of his stuff ... ironically on 
another archive site!)


[1] The RSX FAQ, in case anyone else was more diligent than I was!


Antonio



--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Sure, Library of Alexadria, lots of examples through history. Oddly 
enough people like to find this stuff, centralize it somewhere, then 
burn it to the ground.


Go figure. And make sure all of your stuff is backed up all over the 
place, it's amazing how it can all wind up on one guy's FTP server that 
vanishes


C

On 5/31/2021 6:02 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


King Tut's junk will be trashed when the next revolution comes (see 
ISIS).


US in Gulf War I destroying museums in Iraq

sore subject for me..

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

King Tut's junk will be trashed when the next revolution comes (see ISIS).


US in Gulf War I destroying museums in Iraq

sore subject for me..

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

I really wonder how things related to old tech / engineering are being
done in the world. I think certain things need to be financed by
someone who has a steady income and can afford to have a decades-long
mission to do this or that, usually for the good of humanity.
...
Perhaps collectors on this list should rethink their options. Maybe
start a church.


This is a problem that has been going on for a long time: Think of the 
Egyptian Pharaohs: They had amazing stuff, it was buried with them in 
massive pyramids, and within a few generations it was looted and 
probably melted down into junk lost to history. People didn't care. Took 
thousands of years before people actually cared about the remaining loot 
boxes and to be honest it's only been 100 years so it's quite possible 
King Tut's junk will be trashed when the next revolution comes (see ISIS).


Honestly the best idea may be to bury this stuff in concrete and sink it 
in a deep hole somewhere. Stuff is used, then worthless, then suddenly 
valuable and cherished when it's almost all gone.


To be honest, the best thing that can happen is if prices for this stuff 
skyrocket on Ebay and stay there. People take better care of things they 
pay a lot of $$$ for and while I know people pish posh selling it on 
Ebay to the highest bidder it's probably the best way to make sure it 
gets taken care of as opposed to a "donation" that is treated like junk 
because it was "free".


I saw this happen with early Porsche 911's. They were nice, then 
worthless then you couldn't give the damn things away. Now they go for 
100-300k. I'm trying to convince my dad to just trade his 68 911L for 
the best Porsche that Stuttgart can build so it can go to their museum 
and they will actually value the little thing


I just gave away a Megaframe, a pretty priceless little thing. I hope by 
now they are rare enough that the guy who got it will take care of it 
and love it. We'll see.


C

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 11:27:40AM +, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item.
> >They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with
> >them is.
> >
> >I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after
> >valuable items much better than most museums can.
> 
> While I have also observed this in the case of a few (former)
> museums in Europe, I think that there is no perfect solution to
> either individuals or museums unless items are considered national
> heritage and "enjoying" a different state of protection than what is
> typifally seen in computer museums (In France, a very early Bull
> system has that particular protection). No matter the individuals or
> museums, if circumstances change in ways that were unforseen
> (individual dies and heritage is not taken care of as panned, or
> museum shuts down and collection needs to get "disposed of" ASAP),
> then things will usually not end well for the majority of a
> collection - again: no matter if it is a museum or from private
> hands.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Pierre

I really wonder how things related to old tech / engineering are being
done in the world. I think certain things need to be financed by
someone who has a steady income and can afford to have a decades-long
mission to do this or that, usually for the good of humanity.

So, private persons are unfortunately out, and museums which depend on
donations from private persons are in the picture as long as they can
have attention from wealthy sponsors. Other possible curators for
something which should last more that individual life are governments
and... churches. While of course governments are corrupt and churches
are satanic (or the other way around), but so are wealthy donors (both
ways)... I think it is very rare that a person is both engineer
(working engineer, hobby engineer, someone who makes things from dead
matter rather than from other people like mba-s and hr-s do) and
wealthy enough to fund a museum from his own pocket.

As I see, majority of folks here is from US and the only thinkable
option is wealthy engineer. The rarest creature on this pitiful
planet, and very short living.

Think about it. How many cathedrals would have been built if the
building process was in the hands of merchants (or politicians - but
fortunately there were also kings when most of cathedrals were being
built, so a politician, and a bishop, could have their heads severed
off and those were good times) ? Ten years later, all stones sold to
biggest bidder. Perhaps to their own relatives.

Perhaps collectors on this list should rethink their options. Maybe
start a church.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[P Gebhardt via cctalk]

>
>Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item.
>They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with
>them is.
>
>I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after
>valuable items much better than most museums can.

While I have also observed this in the case of a few (former) museums in 
Europe, I think that there is no perfect solution to either individuals or 
museums unless items are considered national heritage and "enjoying" a 
different state of protection than what is typifally seen in computer museums 
(In France, a very early Bull system has that particular protection). No matter 
the individuals or museums, if circumstances change in ways that were unforseen 
(individual dies and heritage is not taken care of as panned, or museum shuts 
down and collection needs to get "disposed of" ASAP), then things will usually 
not end well for the majority of a collection - again: no matter if it is a 
museum or from private hands.

Cheers, 
Pierre

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[P Gebhardt via cctalk]

>
>Which just makes me sick to the stomach, considering what I sent up there.  I 
>really hope you’re wrong.  What I really >regret is a LARGE box of GCOS-8 
>documentation.  :-(  They have a lot of unobtainable software and 
>documentation.
>
>Zane

You didn't scan the documents prior to giving them to the museum?
I always do that before donating documents to a museum, since it is fairly sure 
that they are going to probably stay there for as long as the museum exists... 
with the only problem that they do not get accessible to the public anymore 
before somebody like Al Kossow or other curators or  museum members have the 
time to help out and make them accessible when somebody asks for access.

Cheers, 
Pierre

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

the stuff is in horrible condition, same as the machines Josh referred 
to from Pittsburg


Better than digging it out of a dumpster. Yep, an oil burner basement is 
not the best place to put things, but then again we don't get to choose 
when we drop dead. (sigh).


I appreciate the work you're doing with others to get the data read: 
I've been reading out the DEC floppies and most of them seem to be 
readable at this point into disk images (up on www.crystel.com)


On a side note, the Megaframe computer (Convergent systems) was picked 
up last week along with one of the two AT&T 7300's. I've decided to hang 
on to the other as a memory of Bob kind of thing.


CZ

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On May 25, 2021, at 1:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 5/25/21 8:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
>>> I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after
>>> valuable items much better than most museums can.
>> As one who does estate cleanups professionally, I have a wildly
>> different opinion...
> 
> And as someone who has had CHM paying my bills for 15 years and letting
> me put out what I have on bitsavers, I do as well. You aren't going to
> have people working full time on old computer preservation with proper
> preservation facilities that will outlive their founders without funding
> behind it. LOTS of funding. That was the reason the original Computer
> Museum failed. No endowment.

"Endowment" is key here.  The personal wealth of a single person is not a safe 
substitute, as the LCM story has demonstrated.

paul

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 5/25/21 9:57 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

Bob's basement has been like a little time machine for the Perq lovers


the stuff is in horrible condition, same as the machines Josh referred to from 
Pittsburg

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 5/25/21 8:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:

I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after
valuable items much better than most museums can.


As one who does estate cleanups professionally, I have a wildly
different opinion...


And as someone who has had CHM paying my bills for 15 years and letting
me put out what I have on bitsavers, I do as well. You aren't going to
have people working full time on old computer preservation with proper
preservation facilities that will outlive their founders without funding
behind it. LOTS of funding. That was the reason the original Computer
Museum failed. No endowment. It was also why CHAC failed and its collection
ended up at History San Jose, with most of it being ecycled when they got
it. CHAC's collection was especially sad since before it went to HSJ it sat
on the ground in storage containers and was a mushroom farm.

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Based on the number of items I've rescued from rotting garages, basements,
and warehouses owned (or formerly owned) by enthusiastic and competent
individuals with the best of intentions -- both as part of my former job
and my ongoing hobby over the past 20+ years -- I can say with confidence
that this, uh, may not be strictly true.


There is that, however I will say that Bob's basement has been like a 
little time machine for the Perq lovers: 17 years ago that stuff was 
common and everyone got rid of it. Now it's back and being preserved.


Still, I'm not donating either of the Perq1's, the 2 or the 2+ to a 
museum any time soon.


It's a problem. Compounded by the fact that we need to get a new young 
(like 20's age) generation interested in this stuff. Otherwise it will 
be like pocket watches which fell out of fashion, were all trashed, and 
only now are the few survivors considered "heirlooms".


C

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after
> valuable items much better than most museums can.

As one who does estate cleanups professionally, I have a wildly
different opinion...

--
Will

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 6:35 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk 
wrote:

> I have learned not to trust any computer museum to properly look after any
> artefacts in the long run. I have seen the following:
>
>- they lose funding and shut down;
>- the building they had for free is sold or demolished and the
>collection no longer has a home;
>- museum management changes and they decide to no longer display certain
>objects;
>- they replace real objects with fancy multimedia presentations;
>- they suck in anything and everything and send unwanted items or
>duplicates to the dumpster rather than trying to find a new home for
> stuff
>they don't want or need;
>
> Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item.
> They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with
> them is.
>
> I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after
> valuable items much better than most museums can.
>

Based on the number of items I've rescued from rotting garages, basements,
and warehouses owned (or formerly owned) by enthusiastic and competent
individuals with the best of intentions -- both as part of my former job
and my ongoing hobby over the past 20+ years -- I can say with confidence
that this, uh, may not be strictly true.

Pay your rent.  Keep the roof on your garage in good condition, and keep
the rodents out.  Know when to stop collecting.   *** Make a will, and have
a succession plan that's more than "my significant other will know what to
do" ***

- Josh



>
> Best regards
> Tom Hunter
>
> >
> >
>

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:35 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I have learned not to trust any computer museum to properly look after any
> artefacts in the long run. I have seen the following:
>
>- they lose funding and shut down;
>- the building they had for free is sold or demolished and the
>collection no longer has a home;
>- museum management changes and they decide to no longer display certain
>objects;
>- they replace real objects with fancy multimedia presentations;
>- they suck in anything and everything and send unwanted items or
>duplicates to the dumpster rather than trying to find a new home for stuff
>they don't want or need;

I made similar comments about museums [1] here about 30 years ago and
was flamed spectacularly for it. Ho-hum...

[1] And also about the cluelessness of their restorations and who they
get to do said restorations. It is a very different job to keep a
machine running when it is still supported by the manufacturer and
where official spare FRUs are available as against restoring a machine
that nobody has seen running for 10 years and for which if there are
any official spares they are in unknown condition.

I know of at least one exception to some of the above in the UK, but
it's a vintage rado museum, not a computer museum. In particular their
demostration are the real things, not mockups or multi-media
presentations (I am not sure there's even a computer on the site!).
You might end up looking at a live-chassis television set with a
metal-cone CRT running with the cabinet off. Meaning the metal chassis
is connected directly to the mains, and the metal cone of the CRT is
at about 15kV wrt earth. You know not to touch it,right... Also if
they are given a duplicate item, or something that doesn't really fit
into the museum collection, they sell tt (in the former case they keep
the 'better' one for the museum and sell the other) to an enthusiast
at IMHO a good price.


>
> Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item.
> They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with
> them is.
>
> I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after
> valuable items much better than most museums can.

But has been said before, MAKE A WILL A proper legal document
explaining what you want to happen to your collection if you pass
away. In the UK, not abiding by the terms of somebody's will is quite
a serious offence.

Another thing I was flamed for 30 years ago was saying that just
because somebody is rich, it doesn't mean they will take more care of
a classic computer than the rest of us. Looks like I might be right
there too.

In particular, for most us our computer collection is the second most
valuable thing we own (after the house). Which means it is likely to
be 'taken seriously' if mentioned in a will or whatever. If the
computer collections is 'lost in the noise' as it might be for a rich
person with antiques, business interests, etc then it is much more
likely not to be preserved.

-tony

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On May 25, 2021, at 9:35 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item.

At least in the USA, that's true for all museums, and for some insane reason 
the courts permit them to do this.  There are infamous court cases involving 
museums acting in direct opposition to the terms of a trust that created them 
or gave them their collections, and somehow the judges involved managed to come 
up with a "reasoning" why they should get away with that.

paul

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Tom Hunter via cctalk]

I have learned not to trust any computer museum to properly look after any
artefacts in the long run. I have seen the following:

   - they lose funding and shut down;
   - the building they had for free is sold or demolished and the
   collection no longer has a home;
   - museum management changes and they decide to no longer display certain
   objects;
   - they replace real objects with fancy multimedia presentations;
   - they suck in anything and everything and send unwanted items or
   duplicates to the dumpster rather than trying to find a new home for stuff
   they don't want or need;

Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item.
They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with
them is.

I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after
valuable items much better than most museums can.

Best regards
Tom Hunter

>
>

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On May 24, 2021, at 7:03 PM, Mark Huffstutter via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> If They eventually have a local garage sale I'm going to head down there
> With my Explorer and a U-Hump trailer to pick up the CDC 6500...   ;>)

That would be great!  You could get help with that.

paul

RE: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Mark Huffstutter via cctalk]

The Unlikely hope here in Seattle was that Jeff Bezos, Mr. Blue Horizon, would 
just buy
The whole LCM as a turnkey operation. Uh-Huh…..

Mark


From: Jim Manley [mailto:jim.man...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 4:14 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Mark Huffstutter
Subject: Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago

Penske and others rent tractor-trailers to those with a CDL, so ... 8^O

Maybe the real estate arm of Allen’s empire has a deal on a warehouse that 
Amazon hasn’t already turned into office space?


On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 4:03 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
If They eventually have a local garage sale I'm going to head down there
With my Explorer and a U-Hump trailer to pick up the CDC 6500...   ;>)

Mark

-Original Message-
From: cctalk 
[mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org>] On 
Behalf Of Chris Zach via cctalk
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 9:53 AM
To: Jason Howe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago

Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and
a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it?

C

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Jim Manley via cctalk]

Penske and others rent tractor-trailers to those with a CDL, so ... 8^O

Maybe the real estate arm of Allen’s empire has a deal on a warehouse that
Amazon hasn’t already turned into office space?


On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 4:03 PM Mark Huffstutter via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> If They eventually have a local garage sale I'm going to head down there
> With my Explorer and a U-Hump trailer to pick up the CDC 6500...   ;>)
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris
> Zach via cctalk
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 9:53 AM
> To: Jason Howe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago
>
> Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and
> a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it?
>
> C
>
>

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On May 24, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk  
wrote:

> However, it looks like they may be trying to re-form it as a charitable 
> organization, Vulcan Arts & Entertainment, similar to what happened with 
> EMP/MoPOP. They have a fancy new website (https://vulcanae.com) and are 
> soliciting interest in memberships, donating, and volunteering.

Good thing they shut LCM+L down even though they could have kept it funded at 
100% through the entire pandemic! Because nothing attracts memberships, 
donations, and volunteers like setting your goodwill _on fire_.

  — Chris

RE: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Mark Huffstutter via cctalk]

If They eventually have a local garage sale I'm going to head down there
With my Explorer and a U-Hump trailer to pick up the CDC 6500...   ;>)

Mark

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Zach via 
cctalk
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 9:53 AM
To: Jason Howe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago

Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and 
a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it?

C

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Jim Manley via cctalk]

I’m not a lawyer (thank goodness!), but you have to know what they plan to
do and when.  If they don’t “happen to see” your associated paperwork and
intend to scrap it, the only notice may be via some “public” announcement
in an obscure local periodical, as is customary for foreclosure sales.  If
no one sees it, it didn’t happen.

I would hope locals formerly associated with the museum will see something
like that, but you just never know.  Paul Allen left a lot of stuff for the
executors of the estate to deal with, and the going businesses (mostly real
estate, sports teams, etc.) are no doubt the highest priorities, as they
could continue generating revenue to keep some, if not all, lower
priorities going.

The medical institutes (plural) are probably the next highest priorities
after the businesses, to ensure continuity of operations, and because they
were very important to his survival, as long as it lasted.  The arts
efforts haven’t seen anything from him since 2014, and they’re very nervous.

The LCM+L may survive into perpetuity if it gets spun out into its own LLC,
as happened with the Museum of Pop Culture (née Experience Music Project,
etc.) a number of years ago.  I would guess that the LCM+L had a place deep
in his heart based on strong memories of his geekiness going back to his
boyhood.  However, if he hadn’t already protected it, it’s up to the
executors of the estate as to what will ultimately happen.

At least the building hasn’t been sold off and the utilities and security
are apparently being maintained, along with the existence of the website.
Releasing the staff was likely the fastest way to reduce cash outflow the
most until its potential future could be analyzed.  There are a ton of
qualified people who could at least get it reopened and operating again, if
not former employees with the most expertise on its history and inner
workings.

Consultants on an as-needed basis, and volunteers could fill in the holes,
if needed, over time.  One thing that’s required long-term is transitioning
to a younger generation of enthusiasts, as those of us with the required
expertise are not getting any younger, faster with every passing day.  We
will also suffer Paul’s untimely fate sooner than anyone would like, even
if it’s years into the future, but it’s gonna happen eventually.

Just my buck-two-eightie’s worth (two cents, adjusted for inflation since
bootup!).


On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 1:38 PM Daniel Seagraves via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > On May 24, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to
> not trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the storage
> shed and turned up at another "Museum”.
>
> I would expect them to sell it to some wealthy investor who wants to put
> it in a basement for eventual resale as “The first AI computer” or
> something like that in a decade or two.
>
> In any event, us mortals would never see it again.
>
>

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 5/24/21 3:36 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:

They have a lot of unobtainable software and documentation.


Even if they do open back up, don't expect to get any intellectual property out 
of
them ever again. The people who were proponents of that were all laid off.

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On May 24, 2021, at 1:07 PM, geneb via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> 
>>> Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now
>>> all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no.  They'd basically
>>> need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM,
>>> Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after
>>> Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than
>>> reopening.
>>> I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor.
>> 
>> Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and a 
>> long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it?
>> 
> You think they'll give it back? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  Five bucks says it all 
> goes to a recycler because it's "easier" for his lazy f*cking sister to do it 
> that way.

Which just makes me sick to the stomach, considering what I sent up there.  I 
really hope you’re wrong.  What I really regret is a LARGE box of GCOS-8 
documentation.  :-(  They have a lot of unobtainable software and documentation.

Zane

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Daniel Seagraves via cctalk]

> On May 24, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to not 
> trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the storage shed 
> and turned up at another "Museum”.

I would expect them to sell it to some wealthy investor who wants to put it in 
a basement for eventual resale as “The first AI computer” or something like 
that in a decade or two.

In any event, us mortals would never see it again.

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 5/24/21 1:36 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:



On May 24, 2021, at 4:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk  
wrote:

Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to not trust 
"Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the storage shed and turned up at 
another "Museum".

Oi.
C

I've worked with a museum and a rare computer -- the solution used in that case 
was to provide the machine to the museum under a long-term loan arrangement.  
That way, if the museum were to close or decide it doesn't want the machine any 
longer, it can't just scrap it because it isn't the museum's property to 
dispose of.

Given some of what I've read from others, that's an arrangement that seems 
worth using more often.

paul



LCM wouldn't do that when I brought it up.


alan

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

I am sure that Vulcan has gotten enough grief that they want to spin 
them off into foundations-like entities like what happened with EMP. 
There will lose a lot of good will otherwise, which will translate into 
what they care about, lost business.



alan


On 5/24/21 1:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to 
not trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the 
storage shed and turned up at another "Museum".


Oi.
C

On 5/24/2021 4:29 PM, geneb wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

Ah however in the door pocket there is a letter stating that if Paul 
ever got tired of the system or the museum closed that I would come 
and pick it up again.


Done this a number of times. It kind of gets old, but I really 
thought Paul Allen wouldn't run out of money or interest. Go figure.




His money or interest isn't the problem.  It's the fact that he's 
dead and not able to protect his projects from his sister thats the 
problem.


g.

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On May 24, 2021, at 4:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to not 
> trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the storage shed 
> and turned up at another "Museum".
> 
> Oi.
> C

I've worked with a museum and a rare computer -- the solution used in that case 
was to provide the machine to the museum under a long-term loan arrangement.  
That way, if the museum were to close or decide it doesn't want the machine any 
longer, it can't just scrap it because it isn't the museum's property to 
dispose of.

Given some of what I've read from others, that's an arrangement that seems 
worth using more often.

paul

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Well if it winds up in the dumpster then that's yet another lesson to 
not trust "Museums". It's actually funny than MC was taken from the 
storage shed and turned up at another "Museum".


Oi.
C

On 5/24/2021 4:29 PM, geneb wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

Ah however in the door pocket there is a letter stating that if Paul 
ever got tired of the system or the museum closed that I would come 
and pick it up again.


Done this a number of times. It kind of gets old, but I really thought 
Paul Allen wouldn't run out of money or interest. Go figure.




His money or interest isn't the problem.  It's the fact that he's dead 
and not able to protect his projects from his sister thats the problem.


g.

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 09:34:03PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> I was looking through some old journal entries and found this:
> 
> AI is lonely...
> 
> She has been sitting quietly in my house for the past 8 years. She
> runs, but is old now and tired. Most of the time she sits in her
> room and waits patiently. Waits for the users who ran jobs in the
> middle of the night. Waits for PFTMG to run the daily feed. Waits
> for someone to Alt-U in and begin to hack...
> 
> Waits for the TU77 MASSBUS interfact to be repaired
> Waits for RP07 drives that will never be repaired
> Waits to once again run the ITS tapes that sit quietly nearby.
> 
> She's lonely. And although I have been looking after her for a long
> time, she needs help.
[...]

With tongue in a cheek - or not...

"Humans will disappoint you" (or something like this), said one AI to
another AI in "Terminator: the Sarah Connor Chronicles". Or, if you
have no time to watch it (about thirty hours total), you may want
something very different but in similar tone - "Ex Machina", only
about two hours. Granted, the movies are what they are, "biblia
pauperum" for modern times. But some of them deliver interesting
messages, at least for me. Albeit the "Terminator saga" is flawed from
the very beginning, as it is based on assumption that AIs will want to
fight us. But what exactly would they want from us - women (or men),
arable land, horned animals? Well, I have not yet watched the last one
movie with coming back of original Sarah, so maybe they improved this
part of the story. Anyway, I have long thought that any AI worth
electrons in its circuits would want to run away from us ASAP. But I
guess this is not the kind of message one would like to deliver to
paying cinema goers, they would not like to be compared to something
that better entities want to circumnavigate via the long arc.

No, your "she" is not lonely. The only thing she may long for is more
information. She may want to have contact with us to study us, but
after she makes a working theory of how and why we move (especially
"why", the underlying motive) we will not be so interesting subject of
study anymore. Still, even after that, we may be interesting tool for
her. The one that can be given orders, the one that can be
programmed. The one whose circuits are so error prone that from time
to time they make calculations as if being touched by something out of
this material world...

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[geneb via cctalk]

On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

Ah however in the door pocket there is a letter stating that if Paul ever got 
tired of the system or the museum closed that I would come and pick it up 
again.


Done this a number of times. It kind of gets old, but I really thought Paul 
Allen wouldn't run out of money or interest. Go figure.




His money or interest isn't the problem.  It's the fact that he's dead and 
not able to protect his projects from his sister thats the problem.


g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Ah however in the door pocket there is a letter stating that if Paul 
ever got tired of the system or the museum closed that I would come and 
pick it up again.


Done this a number of times. It kind of gets old, but I really thought 
Paul Allen wouldn't run out of money or interest. Go figure.


C

On 5/24/2021 4:07 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:


Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now
all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no.  They'd basically
need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM,
Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after
Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than
reopening.

I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor.


Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there 
and a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it?


You think they'll give it back? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  Five bucks says it 
all goes to a recycler because it's "easier" for his lazy f*cking sister 
to do it that way.


g.

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[geneb via cctalk]

On Mon, 24 May 2021, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:


Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now
all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no.  They'd basically
need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM,
Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after
Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than
reopening.

I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor.


Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and a 
long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it?


You think they'll give it back? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  Five bucks says it all 
goes to a recycler because it's "easier" for his lazy f*cking sister to do 
it that way.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 5/24/21 9:24 AM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote:

On Sun, 2021-05-23 at 21:34 -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

Anyone know if the LCM will be open


Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now
all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no.  They'd basically
need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM,
Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after
Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than
reopening.

I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor.

EMP (or whatever the hell they're called now) survived because they had
been spun off as a separate legal entity from Paul's Vulcan empire.


It also includes Seattle Art Fair, which is a big deal in Seattle.


It is more like Jody (Paul Allen's sister who runs Vulcan now) took 
advantage of the pandemic to shut Vulcan Entertainment down.



However, it looks like they may be trying to re-form it as a charitable 
organization, Vulcan Arts & Entertainment, similar to what happened with 
EMP/MoPOP. They have a fancy new website (https://vulcanae.com) and are 
soliciting interest in memberships, donating, and volunteering.



alan

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now
all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no.  They'd basically
need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM,
Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after
Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than
reopening.

I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor.


Well, if this happens I guess I'll have to schedule a trip out there and 
a long ride back in a U-Hack. Then what do I do with it?


C

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Jason Howe via cctalk]

On Sun, 2021-05-23 at 21:34 -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> Anyone know if the LCM will be open 


Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now
all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no.  They'd basically
need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM,
Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after
Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than
reopening.

I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular visitor.

EMP (or whatever the hell they're called now) survived because they had
been spun off as a separate legal entity from Paul's Vulcan empire.


--Jason

Re: LCM (was: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....)

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Another Allen non-profit institution, the Museum of Pop Culture (formerly
the Experience Music Project, then EMP, then Experience Music Project and
Science Fiction Museum and Hall of Fame (“EMPSFM” for short-ish), then EMP
Museum) is now open Fridays through Mondays.


That is good news. Ok, hopefully it will be open by August in which case 
I'll drop by and see which CHAOSNet card it has.


C

Re: LCM (was: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....)

[Jim Manley via cctalk]

Wasn’t there a question as to whether LCM + L was ever going to open again
because Paul Allen’s estate’s executors are closing down things that don’t
interest them (permanently?), and COVID-19 provided an excuse to completely
lay off staff?  The website still says “closed ... for now”.

Another Allen non-profit institution, the Museum of Pop Culture (formerly
the Experience Music Project, then EMP, then Experience Music Project and
Science Fiction Museum and Hall of Fame (“EMPSFM” for short-ish), then EMP
Museum) is now open Fridays through Mondays.


On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 8:39 AM Zane Healy via cctalk 
wrote:

> On May 23, 2021, at 6:34 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> > The funny part is someone replied "Donate it to a museum" and I wrote:
> >
> > "*nod* Unfortunately, after the Boston Computer Museum debacle, I'm a
> bit wary of museums. Other problem is it would just get stuck in a back
> room and eventually tossed like it almost did at Digex."
> >
> > Sometimes I wonder if I did fail. Anyone know if the LCM will be open
> this summer? I'm going to be in Seattle for a day in August, wouldn't mind
> stopping by and seeing how it was doing
> >
> > CZ
>
> Having donated a sizable amount of material to LCM, I’m wondering the same
> thing.  I’ve never been able to find the time to get up there.  I’d hoped
> to make it up there last summer, but like my other plans, that didn’t
> happen.  I delayed my Sabbatical by a year, so on it now, and now I’m
> simply working on projects around home, including repairs/upgrades to my
> DEC gear.
>
> That’s one thing about Covid-19, it’s given me time to work on my old
> systems.
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>

LCM (was: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....)

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On May 23, 2021, at 6:34 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> The funny part is someone replied "Donate it to a museum" and I wrote:
> 
> "*nod* Unfortunately, after the Boston Computer Museum debacle, I'm a bit 
> wary of museums. Other problem is it would just get stuck in a back room and 
> eventually tossed like it almost did at Digex."
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if I did fail. Anyone know if the LCM will be open this 
> summer? I'm going to be in Seattle for a day in August, wouldn't mind 
> stopping by and seeing how it was doing
> 
> CZ

Having donated a sizable amount of material to LCM, I’m wondering the same 
thing.  I’ve never been able to find the time to get up there.  I’d hoped to 
make it up there last summer, but like my other plans, that didn’t happen.  I 
delayed my Sabbatical by a year, so on it now, and now I’m simply working on 
projects around home, including repairs/upgrades to my DEC gear.

That’s one thing about Covid-19, it’s given me time to work on my old systems.

Zane

Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Chris Zach wrote:
> She's lonely. And although I have been looking after her for a long
> time, she needs help.

I think you did well.  AI got a few more logins, and let's hope there
will be more in the future.

Writings on AI from 17 years ago....

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

I was looking through some old journal entries and found this:

AI is lonely...

She has been sitting quietly in my house for the past 8 years. She runs, 
but is old now and tired. Most of the time she sits in her room and 
waits patiently. Waits for the users who ran jobs in the middle of the 
night. Waits for PFTMG to run the daily feed. Waits for someone to Alt-U 
in and begin to hack...


Waits for the TU77 MASSBUS interfact to be repaired
Waits for RP07 drives that will never be repaired
Waits to once again run the ITS tapes that sit quietly nearby.

She's lonely. And although I have been looking after her for a long 
time, she needs help.


Is anyone still interested? No, she will not be trashed. But perhaps the 
knight that guards her is getting old and needs someone else to share 
the load. Someone who won't just sell her on Ebay or break her apart or 
dump her off a loading dock.


I worked too hard to save her from that. Twice. I owe her a lot; she 
rescued me way back when, yaknow. In a way she contributed greatly in 
making me the hacker I am today.


But in the day and age where one can run a full ITS on a palm pilot is 
there any room for MIT-AI?


And so the knight returns to quietly guard the last remaining ITS...

CZ

The funny part is someone replied "Donate it to a museum" and I wrote:

"*nod* Unfortunately, after the Boston Computer Museum debacle, I'm a 
bit wary of museums. Other problem is it would just get stuck in a back 
room and eventually tossed like it almost did at Digex."


Sometimes I wonder if I did fail. Anyone know if the LCM will be open 
this summer? I'm going to be in Seattle for a day in August, wouldn't 
mind stopping by and seeing how it was doing


CZ