RE: ide-scsi problem!
>From: "John L. Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >5/22/01 2:28:10 PM, Torrey Hoffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>and as a result "cdrecord --scanbus" identified the drive with >>an out-of-the box Linux Mandrake install. I can burn CD's just >>fine, all it took was a quick read of the cdrecord man page. >Just curious; Did you test the TRACK AT Once mode for an Audio >CD recording >Did you use XCDROAST ? or the command line cdrecord >I can get DAO to work for both Audio and Data on my LG (Goldstar) 8082B >BUT, not Track at once. Could you play a bit with DMA please? I have a LG 8080 and it works in any mode behind a FreeCOM Parallel Port adapter. Jörg EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) chars I am J"org Schilling URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
i am _this_ close to unsubscribing from this ridiculous discussion. :-( -j0e -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ide-scsi problem!
5/22/01 6:08:20 PM, Torrey Hoffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> John L. Turner wrote: >> 5/22/01 2:28:10 PM, Torrey Hoffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >and as a result "cdrecord --scanbus" identified the drive with >> >an out-of-the box Linux Mandrake install. I can burn CD's just >> >fine, all it took was a quick read of the cdrecord man page. >> >> Just curious; Did you test the TRACK AT Once mode for an Audio >> CD recording >> >> Did you use XCDROAST ? or the command line cdrecord > >No, I just use the command line tools mkisofs and cdrecord, and I >haven't tried to make an audio CD from Linux yet. > >I should qualify my earlier statement about Mandrake 8.0 automatically >setting things up correctly - The Mandrake 8.0 install was a few >days ago, and was an upgrade from a working 7.2 install. I haven't >actually _tried_ burning a CD with it yet, but I did see that it >set up the kernel parameters and modules correctly, so I'm sure it >will work. > >Don't most of the GUI tools just provide a front end to the command- >line mkisofs and cdrecord tools? Yes, but the devil is always in the details. Please to test the Audio, Track at Once when time allows. That is where I received all the SCSI error codes that command not correct etc. Thanks [EMAIL PROTECTED] John Turner -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ide-scsi problem!
> John L. Turner wrote: > 5/22/01 2:28:10 PM, Torrey Hoffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >and as a result "cdrecord --scanbus" identified the drive with > >an out-of-the box Linux Mandrake install. I can burn CD's just > >fine, all it took was a quick read of the cdrecord man page. > > Just curious; Did you test the TRACK AT Once mode for an Audio > CD recording > > Did you use XCDROAST ? or the command line cdrecord No, I just use the command line tools mkisofs and cdrecord, and I haven't tried to make an audio CD from Linux yet. I should qualify my earlier statement about Mandrake 8.0 automatically setting things up correctly - The Mandrake 8.0 install was a few days ago, and was an upgrade from a working 7.2 install. I haven't actually _tried_ burning a CD with it yet, but I did see that it set up the kernel parameters and modules correctly, so I'm sure it will work. Don't most of the GUI tools just provide a front end to the command- line mkisofs and cdrecord tools? Torrey Hoffman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ide-scsi problem!
5/22/01 2:28:10 PM, Torrey Hoffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >and as a result "cdrecord --scanbus" identified the drive with >an out-of-the box Linux Mandrake install. I can burn CD's just >fine, all it took was a quick read of the cdrecord man page. Just curious; Did you test the TRACK AT Once mode for an Audio CD recording Did you use XCDROAST ? or the command line cdrecord I can get DAO to work for both Audio and Data on my LG (Goldstar) 8082B BUT, not Track at once. John Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
So sprach [EMAIL PROTECTED] am Tue, May 22, 2001 at 08:32:38PM +0200: > If ide-scsi was the default, then no PC-card drive would work at > all until the bug has been fixed. Okay, "fine". But this really is a drastic step which surely won't be applied until later. Dunno, but wouldn't it be more successfull to talk to the maintainer of the pc-card code and work with him to fix the bug? Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die günstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 8 days 7 hours 27 minutes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
So sprach Torrey Hoffman am Tue, May 22, 2001 at 11:28:10AM -0700: > Instead, talk to the distribution maintainers. They have the That's what I'm also beginning to think (and already have said). From your experience, we now know that Mandrake doesn't have to be 'converted' to easily allow burning of CDs. What about other popular *CURRENT* distributions, like SuSE 7.1, RedHat 7.1, Progeny, etc.pp.? Do they also do something like Mandrake does? (Please note that I did not mention Debian - anyone using Debian is surely not a novice Linux user (I suppose)) If not, than it is, by all means, the fault of the *DISTRIBUTION*, and not of the kernel maintainers! Given the 'glorious' example of Mandrake, we see now that it *IS* possible even with the current choice of default settings in the kernel to easily burn CDs. > Anyone who has the "guts" to download and compile their own > kernel can also be expected to read the documentation on how to > get or keep their CD writer working. Correct. > Perhaps the only thing that the kernel developers *need* to do > is add some documentation that helps people config their kernels > correctly if they compile their own. Send a patch that adds the > appropriate text to the kernel config.help, and perhaps an > IDE-CDWriter.txt file in the /Documentation subdirectory. That would be nice, indeed! If this 'IDE-CDWriter.txt' would mention everything needed, all might be good and well. And I also suppose that Alan would not have a problem including a 'lousy' text file even for 2.4 or 2.2, would he? I can't think of a reason why it should be of any problem whatsoever... Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die günstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 8 days 7 hours 20 minutes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ide-scsi problem!
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue May 22 20:28:52 2001 >I should mention that Linux Mandrake 7.2 and 8.0 both detected >my HP CD-Writer 8100 during installation, (as well as my IDE Zip >drive) and correctly installed the necessary modules for >ide-scsi, sg, and the rest. The kernel config was correctly >set up with: >"hdb=ide-scsi hdd=ide-floppy" >and as a result "cdrecord --scanbus" identified the drive with >an out-of-the box Linux Mandrake install. I can burn CD's just >fine, all it took was a quick read of the cdrecord man page. >So what's the problem? The only time I had to read the >documentation about ide-scsi is when I compiled my own kernel. The problem is that because of this method the developers do not find out that there are bugs in their code. Note: I cannot use my CD-writer on my Sony Vaio notebook. It is connected via PC-Card interface and something like "hdb=ide-scsi hdd=ide-floppy" will not work because of driver bugs. If ide-scsi was the default, then no PC-card drive would work at all until the bug has been fixed. Jörg EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) chars I am J"org Schilling URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
So sprach [EMAIL PROTECTED] am Tue, May 22, 2001 at 07:48:39PM +0200: > Many people have a problem when they start to use Linux. > This is because they need to finf out that there is a need to edit obscure > places like the boot configuration in order to make their CD writer work > while it works out of the box on Win32 and Solaris. Uhm, if it is that obscure (which I also think it is), isn't that much much rather the fault of the maker of the distribution? Shouldn't the distribution provide a nice 'n easy way to change this obscure boot config to allow people to easily burn cd's? > Be realistic! As the problem is important, we need a solution now - not > in three years. exactly Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die günstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 8 days 7 hours 17 minutes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
So sprach Bill Davidsen am Tue, May 22, 2001 at 01:38:36PM -0400: > CDDA capability, somehow I really doubt that I would miss SCSI. But I > don't claim that most people have old CDs, only that they don't burn > them, and that the vast majority of people using Linux don't have a > problem now. If I understand Jörg correctly, you need ide-scsi to successfully grab CD audio. If that's correct, I think more people might need ide-scsi than you think. If all that's true, not only people wanting to burn CDs are affected by the lack of ide-scsi as a standard, but also people wanting to grab music (and maybe convert it to mp3 etc.pp.). I think the 2nd group is larger than the cd-burning-fraction, and I do think that both groups will increase in numbers over the next time, seeing that cd writers become a common good and that HD's are becoming increasingly huge. > Since you admit (claim loudly) that ide-scsi doesn't work right, how > can you hope to have fewer problems making it the standard? Happily, I Uhm, doesn't Jörg claim that both, ide-cd and ide-scsi, are broken, but that ide-scsi is less broken and allows more flexibilty? Besides, why is it a 'major change' if ide-scsi became standard? I mean, this wouldn't mean that anything at all would have to be changed in code, would it? All he's asking for is to change the default to something more "current-compliant" (so to speak). OTOH I still think that this should also be done on a distribution kind of level. Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die günstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 8 days 7 hours 11 minutes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ide-scsi problem!
I should mention that Linux Mandrake 7.2 and 8.0 both detected my HP CD-Writer 8100 during installation, (as well as my IDE Zip drive) and correctly installed the necessary modules for ide-scsi, sg, and the rest. The kernel config was correctly set up with: "hdb=ide-scsi hdd=ide-floppy" and as a result "cdrecord --scanbus" identified the drive with an out-of-the box Linux Mandrake install. I can burn CD's just fine, all it took was a quick read of the cdrecord man page. So what's the problem? The only time I had to read the documentation about ide-scsi is when I compiled my own kernel. My suggestion is to not bother the kernel developers. They are mostly volunteers and simply work on what interests them. I read the linux kernel mailing lists, they are fighting about deeper problems right now. :-) Instead, talk to the distribution maintainers. They have the power to install things correctly so they will work for the 90% of Linux users who don't compile their own kernels. Anyone who has the "guts" to download and compile their own kernel can also be expected to read the documentation on how to get or keep their CD writer working. Perhaps the only thing that the kernel developers *need* to do is add some documentation that helps people config their kernels correctly if they compile their own. Send a patch that adds the appropriate text to the kernel config.help, and perhaps an IDE-CDWriter.txt file in the /Documentation subdirectory. Finally, in the 2.5 Linux kernel development tree, the new kernel configuration language (CML 2) will start to be used, and it will have new features that help "average users" correctly configure their kernels. Probably that would be a good time to make some changes to the "default" configurations. Torrey Hoffman PS. Everyone seems so *angry* about this stuff! Relax! It's free software! It's supposed to be FUN! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Davidsen) >> WRONG: ... or must I send you a ide-cdrom driver where I removed the ability >> to send SCSI commands to the CD-ROM drive to proove that you ar wrong? >> >> Fact is you NEED SCSI commands to do it and ide-cdrom does it in a non Linux way >> so cdrecord cannot use it. > Given that my drive makes no claim to being ATAPI, and that I added >another drive because one of the ripping programs told me it also lacked >CDDA capability, somehow I really doubt that I would miss SCSI. But I >don't claim that most people have old CDs, only that they don't burn >them, and that the vast majority of people using Linux don't have a >problem now. Many people have a problem when they start to use Linux. This is because they need to finf out that there is a need to edit obscure places like the boot configuration in order to make their CD writer work while it works out of the box on Win32 and Solaris. > Since you admit (claim loudly) that ide-scsi doesn't work right, how >can you hope to have fewer problems making it the standard? Happily, I >can't think that such a major change would be made in a stable kernel >series, so the changes will wait until 2.6, and will be what the >developers want. There are only a few problems what could easily be fixed. This is why Alan should be involved with the change. > The steps are (a) first implement the new IDE and SCSI layers, then >(b) debug them until they work as well as or better than what we have, >and only then (c) decide if there is any reason to change the default. Why the hell does Linus works the opposite way? Be realistic! As the problem is important, we need a solution now - not in three years. Jörg EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) chars I am J"org Schilling URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > What more than read do you need for a CD-ROM? My drives all have a > >> >convenient button to eject media, which is handy because I use my hand > >> >to pick up the CD and my finger is right there. As I found out once, by > >> >using software eject you can stick the tray right out where someone can > >> >bang into it. > >> > >> Open/close tray, lock tray, read audio, read toc, change error recovery parameters > >> and a lot more. > > > You know, my music sounds fine, I guess I just can't hear them. In > >case you missed the point, data CDs and playing music work fine on IDE > >without all the stuff you consider important. > > WRONG: ... or must I send you a ide-cdrom driver where I removed the ability > to send SCSI commands to the CD-ROM drive to proove that you ar wrong? > > Fact is you NEED SCSI commands to do it and ide-cdrom does it in a non Linux way > so cdrecord cannot use it. Given that my drive makes no claim to being ATAPI, and that I added another drive because one of the ripping programs told me it also lacked CDDA capability, somehow I really doubt that I would miss SCSI. But I don't claim that most people have old CDs, only that they don't burn them, and that the vast majority of people using Linux don't have a problem now. Since you admit (claim loudly) that ide-scsi doesn't work right, how can you hope to have fewer problems making it the standard? Happily, I can't think that such a major change would be made in a stable kernel series, so the changes will wait until 2.6, and will be what the developers want. The steps are (a) first implement the new IDE and SCSI layers, then (b) debug them until they work as well as or better than what we have, and only then (c) decide if there is any reason to change the default. -- -bill davidsen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) "The secret to procrastination is to put things off until the last possible moment - but no longer" -me -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
5/22/01 1:16:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Davidsen) wrote: >"John L. Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > You still miss the issue. The argument for not changing is that (a) few >> >people feel the need for the change, (b) the kernel developers are >> >working at other things they think are important, and (c) any major >> >change like this would require user education, changes in configuration, >> >and don't belong in a stable release. Maybe this will be in 2.6 someday. >> > >> Something Must Change so that writing to ATAPI CD's in all manner can >> be done. > > Why? Joerg doesn't support all possible drives, he posts a list of >what works. Why can't people use the hundreds of drive and bus >combinations which are supported by Linux? Well, my LG Goldstar 8042B is on the list, and it sure works in that other OS Creative Labs knows how to do it, why can't all the Smarter folks that work in Linux do it also? People load software and play music just fine, >but not everyone has the need or even desire to do all the other things >Joerg mentioned, such as lock the tray... Most everyone that I know wants to RECORD something on the CD-RW > > There is a list of supported CD devices on Joerg's web site, and no >one complains that it doesn't include every possible drive, they go to >the list and buy a working drive if they want to use the application. >There are hundreds of working combinations of drives which work >perfectly with Linux, why do people have such problems with the concept >that not all possible drives are supported in Linux? > Is LG (Goldstar) 8042 Not acceptable? If not why not? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
So sprach Denis Pelletier am Tue, May 22, 2001 at 01:22:37PM -0400: > If it is so then I don't see the need for a new IDE and SCSI > implementation. Am I missing something? If you are, than I'm also missing something. That's how I understood Jörg as well... Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die günstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 8 days 6 hours 22 minutes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
So sprach [EMAIL PROTECTED] am Tue, May 22, 2001 at 06:38:11PM +0200: > a) This is a very important isue as many people have problems and the kernel >developers don't listen to them! > > b) it is the opposite way round: the current default requires user education > while my suggestion would just do what 99.999% of all users expect. Actually, I think it's not the kernel maintainer's job to care for these. Much rather I think you should try to convince the people at Mandrake, RedHat, SuSE, Debian, Progeny, LibraNet etc.pp., that is, convince the distributions. Most (all?) of them ship with heavily modified versions of the kernel, and 'normal' users use whatever ships with a distribution. 'Mr. John Doe' does not compile his kernel himself anymore, I suppose. If it's not possible to record a CD out-of-the box, than it's the distributions fault, as they could easily setup to only use ide-scsi for everyone. Actually, at least the for profit distributions should have a keen interest in this, as this makes their distribution easier to use. And ease-of-use sells. > WRONG: ... or must I send you a ide-cdrom driver where I removed the ability > to send SCSI commands to the CD-ROM drive to proove that you ar wrong? > > Fact is you NEED SCSI commands to do it and ide-cdrom does it in a non Linux way > so cdrecord cannot use it. You need SCSI commands to play and listen to music? > IDE-CD being the default configuration for ATAPI CD-ROm drives > is causing problems for many people and it does things (send SCSI commands) > in a way that is noncompliant with the rest of the Linux kernel. Is ide-cd *REALLY* causing problems for people who only want to listen to music and read files off a CD? NOTE: I'm not talking of grabbing music off a CD here, nor am I talking about reading a CD in binary mode (eg. cat /dev/cdrom). Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die günstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 8 days 6 hours 13 minutes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
On Tue, 22 May 2001, Bill Davidsen wrote:
{ The relationship between Redhat, et al, and developers is musch like
{ the relationship between a car dealer and the factory... The
{ "distributions" are packaging of the base Linux kernel and associated
{ software. While some distributors make changes or minor corrections to
{ the kernel and software, I don't think anyone will take over writing and
{ maintaining a while new IDE and SCSI implementation, particularly as
{ Alan has indicated that this is likely to change by 2.6.
I'm a bit lost now. I taught that the main request of Joerg is that the
kernel should treat all ATAPI cdrom as ide-scsi devices dy default so
Linux users would not need to give the option hdX=ide-scsi when booting
if they want to use a cd burner. If someone would want to use the ide-cd
module, they would have to use the option hdX=ide-cd.
If it is so then I don't see the need for a new IDE and SCSI
implementation. Am I missing something?
Denis
___
Denis Pelletier
Étudiant au doctorat
sciences économiques, Université de Montreal
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Re: ide-scsi problem!
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> suggested: > You are asking the wrong group of people. Kernel hackers/developers CAN'T > help you. > > You need to talk to RedHat, SuSe, Caldera, Mandrake, ... and all other > companies that distribute Linux. That's what an average user installs and > these distributors decide what kernel they ship by default. The relationship between Redhat, et al, and developers is musch like the relationship between a car dealer and the factory... The "distributions" are packaging of the base Linux kernel and associated software. While some distributors make changes or minor corrections to the kernel and software, I don't think anyone will take over writing and maintaining a while new IDE and SCSI implementation, particularly as Alan has indicated that this is likely to change by 2.6. The people maintaining IDE have their own ideas about what, if anything, is going to change, and I think they are far better qualified to make this decision than one or two people who's usage is far more sophisticated than the typical user. -- -bill davidsen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) "The secret to procrastination is to put things off until the last possible moment - but no longer" -me -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue May 22 18:10:35 2001 >> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Davidsen) >> >Joerg Schilling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> I took Bill Davidsen out of the list as the email address [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> is bad and is bounced since half a year. >> >> >What he means is that his site triggers the SPAM filters, even though it >> >works fine for others including debian.org, so he decided unilaterally >> >> So you should correct your spam filters! > There is nothing wrong with them. Of course it is wrong as we do not spam. So if your spam filter flags fokus.gmd.de than it is broken. >> Why don't you do this. Your mailer problem is present for a long time >> and I even asked you at east once for the reason. > I have asked you to stop copying me, too, but I haven't tried to >remove you from the list because you continue to do so. I usually type "Re" and let the mailer do. Note that there are people on the list of recipients who do not read cdwrite@ >> In our research institute nobody bought a PC with less that 512 MB in 2001. >> Asking perople abouth their private PC's, I know that nobod bought less than >> 128 MB for a PC that is new this year. > I assume that someone buys the PCs with 64MB, major retailers sell >them by both store and mail order. The point is that 512MB is not the >standard, and is not relevant to changing the Linux kernel. Even then it is not a problem to have 100kB of SCSI driver code loaded. > You still miss the issue. The argument for not changing is that (a) few >people feel the need for the change, (b) the kernel developers are >working at other things they think are important, and (c) any major >change like this would require user education, changes in configuration, >and don't belong in a stable release. Maybe this will be in 2.6 someday. You missed the important issue: a) This is a very important isue as many people have problems and the kernel developers don't listen to them! b) it is the opposite way round: the current default requires user education while my suggestion would just do what 99.999% of all users expect. >> People send me private mail if they have problems. One solution may be to >> commentless forward this mail to you and Alan Cox . > Since neither of us is IDE or SCSI maintainer, that would just be >spite, not trying to get anything accomplished. Well my experience with the sg driver showed me that Alan in fact decides what goes into the kernel. This is the reason why I like to discuss it with him. >> > What more than read do you need for a CD-ROM? My drives all have a >> >convenient button to eject media, which is handy because I use my hand >> >to pick up the CD and my finger is right there. As I found out once, by >> >using software eject you can stick the tray right out where someone can >> >bang into it. >> >> Open/close tray, lock tray, read audio, read toc, change error recovery parameters >> and a lot more. > You know, my music sounds fine, I guess I just can't hear them. In >case you missed the point, data CDs and playing music work fine on IDE >without all the stuff you consider important. WRONG: ... or must I send you a ide-cdrom driver where I removed the ability to send SCSI commands to the CD-ROM drive to proove that you ar wrong? Fact is you NEED SCSI commands to do it and ide-cdrom does it in a non Linux way so cdrecord cannot use it. >> >> >>You are saying the same thing as Alan Cox: >> >> >> >> >> >>Let us keep the bugs in ide-scsi & the SCSI cdrom driver on Linux >because >> >> >>I do not realize any problem for _my_ personal work. > More to the point, because there is no compelling reason to change it, >and problems described above which result from it. There is a very important reason for a change: most people have problems with the current default. >> So you are going to convince me to stop with my attempt to make Linux easier >> to use and just forward any mail to you and Alan. I hope that at least then >> you will realize that there is a problem that needs to be solved. > Would you be unhappy is a few people wrote bad things about you >several times a week saying your software was crap and broken because >your option handling is bizarre and confusing because you refuse to >adopt the conventions used in other software? Or because you don't >support some obscure feature, or can't do DOA using raw, or... whatever? >Would that piss you off after someone whined about it over and over like >a three year old who thinks he will get what he wants because he is so >obnoxious? You did not get it... The difference between me and the Linux kernel team is that I listen and tell you: Yes I will do this in the near future. I currently don't have the time because there are more important things to do. Now that more and more cheap Philips chip kit based writers are out, the importance to be not only able to write in DAO but also RAW raises. > Well
Re: ide-scsi problem!
> > You still miss the issue. The argument for not changing is that (a) few >people feel the need for the change, (b) the kernel developers are >working at other things they think are important, and (c) any major >change like this would require user education, changes in configuration, >and don't belong in a stable release. Maybe this will be in 2.6 someday. > Something Must Change so that writing to ATAPI CD's in all manner can be done. It looks like there is a real problem here, getting to the person that keeps cdrecord from working. Where is the blame to be laid? cdrecord ? ide-scsi ? kernel options ? OR Tell us dumb users how to make the packages come together > > You know, my music sounds fine, I guess I just can't hear them. In >case you missed the point, data CDs and playing music work fine on IDE >without all the stuff you consider important. The real point is that Writing to the CD-RW DOES NOT WORK for everyone Seach dejanews on ide-scsi Errors and see the hunders of posts were unknow command errors abound >> >> >> >>You are saying the same thing as Alan Cox: >> >> >> >> >> >>Let us keep the bugs in ide-scsi & the SCSI cdrom driver on Linux >because >> >> >>I do not realize any problem for _my_ personal work. > > More to the point, because there is no compelling reason to change it, >and problems described above which result from it. See above. There must be a reason somewhere why CD-R does not work with ide drives >> So you are going to convince me to stop with my attempt to make Linux easier >> to use and just forward any mail to you and Alan. I hope that at least then >> you will realize that there is a problem that needs to be solved. Is there enough votes in to make that point? That there really is a problem with the CD recording schema. I do believe there is, and the real question is who will admit that some one needs to fix it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
Joerg Schilling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Davidsen) > >Joerg Schilling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> I took Bill Davidsen out of the list as the email address [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> is bad and is bounced since half a year. > > >What he means is that his site triggers the SPAM filters, even though it > >works fine for others including debian.org, so he decided unilaterally > > So you should correct your spam filters! There is nothing wrong with them. > Why don't you do this. Your mailer problem is present for a long time > and I even asked you at east once for the reason. I have asked you to stop copying me, too, but I haven't tried to remove you from the list because you continue to do so. > >I thought you were on another continent, it sounds as f your on a > >diferent planet. Looking at standard RAM in the USA, try 64MB normal, > >less than that on budget models. A number of Dell and Compaq models seem > >to have 512MB as the max, not the standard. > > In our research institute nobody bought a PC with less that 512 MB in 2001. > Asking perople abouth their private PC's, I know that nobod bought less than > 128 MB for a PC that is new this year. I assume that someone buys the PCs with 64MB, major retailers sell them by both store and mail order. The point is that 512MB is not the standard, and is not relevant to changing the Linux kernel. > Telling me that you like it the way it currently is on Linux is no argument. > I gave you enough arguments why Linux kernel defaults should be changed. > If you have arguments against, please explain them - you are welcome. > But please don't tell me that 'I like it the way it is' is an argument. You still miss the issue. The argument for not changing is that (a) few people feel the need for the change, (b) the kernel developers are working at other things they think are important, and (c) any major change like this would require user education, changes in configuration, and don't belong in a stable release. Maybe this will be in 2.6 someday. > People send me private mail if they have problems. One solution may be to > commentless forward this mail to you and Alan Cox . Since neither of us is IDE or SCSI maintainer, that would just be spite, not trying to get anything accomplished. > > What more than read do you need for a CD-ROM? My drives all have a > >convenient button to eject media, which is handy because I use my hand > >to pick up the CD and my finger is right there. As I found out once, by > >using software eject you can stick the tray right out where someone can > >bang into it. > > Open/close tray, lock tray, read audio, read toc, change error recovery parameters > and a lot more. You know, my music sounds fine, I guess I just can't hear them. In case you missed the point, data CDs and playing music work fine on IDE without all the stuff you consider important. > > >> >>You are saying the same thing as Alan Cox: > >> >> > >> >> Let us keep the bugs in ide-scsi & the SCSI cdrom driver on Linux because > >> >> I do not realize any problem for _my_ personal work. More to the point, because there is no compelling reason to change it, and problems described above which result from it. > > Isn't this just about exactly what you say when someone asks for a > >feature you don't need? Some version of "I have better things to do with > >my time?" So do the Linux developers, things they think are more useful, > >either to them or the vast majority of users who don't care at all if > >some obscure SCSI command is implemented. Particularly since many ATAPI > >device have broken firmware for features not used frequently, as you > >have rightly pointed out. > > So you are going to convince me to stop with my attempt to make Linux easier > to use and just forward any mail to you and Alan. I hope that at least then > you will realize that there is a problem that needs to be solved. Would you be unhappy is a few people wrote bad things about you several times a week saying your software was crap and broken because your option handling is bizarre and confusing because you refuse to adopt the conventions used in other software? Or because you don't support some obscure feature, or can't do DOA using raw, or... whatever? Would that piss you off after someone whined about it over and over like a three year old who thinks he will get what he wants because he is so obnoxious? Well it pisses us off, too. It doesn't work that way, it won't get a major change before 2.6 (except maybe in test versions), and ide-cd is likely to be the standard even if things do change, just because people are tired of hearing you whine! -- -bill davidsen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) "The secret to procrastination is to put things off until the last possible moment - but no longer" -me -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
On Tue, 22 May 2001, Joerg Schilling wrote: > > > > Absolutely wrong! Forward this mail to Redhat, Caldera, SuSe, etc... > > > > > I think you are absolutely wrong. If you download a kernel from ftp.kernel.org > then there are default settings. Maybe you should try out to compile > a kernel yourself instead of using ready made kernels from distributors. Oh, of course there are some defaults. But those defaults from the plain kernel source are pretty unusable anyway. Besides, anyone compiling kernels should be aware of what he's doing and should know why he's doing it and certainly isn't an average user. Regards, D. ___ |Danilo Godec| Agenda d.o.o.| ISP for business | | jr. Syst. Admin |Gosposvetska 84 | WAN networks| | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |si-2000 Maribor | Internet/Intranet | | tel:+386.2.2340860 | Slovenija | Application servers | | fax:+386.2.2340854 | http://www.agenda.si | Caldera OpenLinux | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue May 22 12:57:32 2001 >Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:57:27 +0200 (MET DST) >X-Envelope-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:40:09 +0200 >From: Joerg Schilling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: ide-scsi problem! >Resent-Message-ID: >Resent-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >X-Mailing-List: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> archive/latest/4508 >X-Loop: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Resent-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> You are asking the wrong group of people. Kernel hackers/developers CAN'T >> help you. >> >> You need to talk to RedHat, SuSe, Caldera, Mandrake, ... and all other >> companies that distribute Linux. That's what an average user installs and >> these distributors decide what kernel they ship by default. >> >> Absolutely wrong! Forward this mail to Redhat, Caldera, SuSe, etc... >> >> >I think you are absolutely wrong. If you download a kernel from ftp.kernel.org >then there are default settings. Maybe you should try out to compile >a kernel yourself instead of using ready made kernels from distributors. >Sven Please don't fake mail addresses! This mail is not from ME! Jörg EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) chars I am J"org Schilling URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
> You are asking the wrong group of people. Kernel hackers/developers CAN'T > help you. > > You need to talk to RedHat, SuSe, Caldera, Mandrake, ... and all other > companies that distribute Linux. That's what an average user installs and > these distributors decide what kernel they ship by default. > > Absolutely wrong! Forward this mail to Redhat, Caldera, SuSe, etc... > > I think you are absolutely wrong. If you download a kernel from ftp.kernel.org then there are default settings. Maybe you should try out to compile a kernel yourself instead of using ready made kernels from distributors. Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ide-scsi problem!
On Tue, 22 May 2001, Joerg Schilling wrote: > In our research institute nobody bought a PC with less that 512 MB in 2001. > Asking perople abouth their private PC's, I know that nobod bought less than > 128 MB for a PC that is new this year. A research institute is NOT populated by average users. Although I agree that memory is not really an issue anymore. > The fact that you know how to reconfigure Linux to make a ATAPI CD-writer > work does not mean that the average Linux user knows how to do this. > I am simply asking that Linux should dafault to a configuration that > is easy to use for most of it's current (new) users. You are asking the wrong group of people. Kernel hackers/developers CAN'T help you. You need to talk to RedHat, SuSe, Caldera, Mandrake, ... and all other companies that distribute Linux. That's what an average user installs and these distributors decide what kernel they ship by default. This debate is totally pointless. You're talking to kernel developers/hackers, who can't change what kind of kernel RedHat or Caldera or SuSe or whatever company ships by 'default'. > People send me private mail if they have problems. One solution may be to > commentless forward this mail to you and Alan Cox . Absolutely wrong! Forward this mail to Redhat, Caldera, SuSe, etc... Regards, ___ |Danilo Godec| Agenda d.o.o.| ISP for business | | jr. Syst. Admin |Gosposvetska 84 | WAN networks| | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |si-2000 Maribor | Internet/Intranet | | tel:+386.2.2340860 | Slovenija | Application servers | | fax:+386.2.2340854 | http://www.agenda.si | Caldera OpenLinux | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
