Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread Lourens Veen
On Mon 3 November 2003 00:06, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:
  But can a file span multiple extents? The way I read the
  comment Gary quoted, it's legal to have an image that is over
  2GB in size, as long as each file inside that image is no
  larger than 2GB.

 Careful - the comment was about mkisofs, although it was in the
 kernel source. It definitely says file*systems* 2GB are legal,
 otherwise it says mkisofs can't handle single *files* 2GB - that
 doesn't necessarily mean they're illegal. The comment may also be
 old and no longer true for current versions of standards.

Good point.

[...]
  That seems to me like
  the only logical way to explain why the comment says it's
  legal, but the code claims it's illegal to have files that are
  more than 2GB in size.

 You're mixing up file with filesystem here?

Erm, actually, what I said doesn't make sense at all. Never mind...

  so apparently at least someone looked at ISO Level 3 support.
  I'd say send a message to linux-kernel and see what they say
  about it...

 Yes, together with a raft of other iso9660 issues :(

 Perhaps mkisofs is now able to handle files 2GB, the lack of a
 suitable error when creating the filesystem does suggest so.
 However, for Linux that's a moot point as Linux doesn't handle
 2GB, but mkisofs isn't only used on Linux. Thanks Gary for the
 warning about that.

Linux in general does have large file support now doesn't it? 
Incidentally, I had a quick look at the same file in 2.6.0-test9, 
but apart from adding support for compressed iso9660 filesystems 
(zisofs?) and some stuff apparently to do with multisession 
handling nothing much seems to have changed here.

Lourens
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Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread Volker Kuhlmann
 Linux in general does have large file support now doesn't it? 

Yes, for a little while. This is filesystem-dependent though!! Looks
like iso9660 has missed out so far.

Volker

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Re: DVD media incompatibility

2003-11-03 Thread Joerg Schilling
From: Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Do I need a later version of dvdrecord to use DVD-R 4x media in a LaCie
Multi Drive DVD-R/RAM recorder?  It isn't a drive that needs a firmware
upgrade to prevent damage such as a Pioneer drive.  Dvdrecord output the
error message I am including below when I try to write to the media.  It
isn't fair when the package label says compatible with 1X-4X but the
drive won't write to it!  I wouldn't have bought it but the new DVD
writer we just got is a 4X.  So, I thought I was buying a 50disc pack to
feed both writers.  Be warned by my experience here that you have to
test before assuming it'll work.  Googling the error condition from the
output below gives just a few people asking for help with media problems
on CD and DVD media.  Most thought the media was bad.  At $2/disc, I've
tried two discs several times.  Each time the failure code is the same.

  Thanks for your help,

PS. Watch for line wrapping from the webmail interface here.  Sorry
about that.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] root]# dvdrecord -v fs=32m speed=2 dev=0,0 -dao -force
-isosize /dev/cdrom;
dvdrtools v0.1.3

This is an illegal program that violates GPL!

It is definitely not a true cdrecord. If you have any problem with this
illegal program, call the distributor...

Jörg

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Re: [Cdrecord-support] Re: [Cdrecord-developers] Re: Cdrecord bug in DAO mode (version 2.01a19)

2003-11-03 Thread Joerg Schilling
From: Udo Buedel [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Rob Bogus wrote:

[incorrect audio cd]

 It's not clear why using a  newer version might trigger a problem, 
  but the firmware might have a bug in one mode or another.

The firmware in some LiteOn writer produce incorrect subchannel data for 
audio cd. In later firmware, this bug is fixed.

If cdrecord produce the subchannel data, then you get a correct audio 
cd: see option -raw.

As he is using a Lite-ON drive, he _needs_ to use RAW recording.

I have no information that this bug has been fixed already.

Jörg

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Re: DVD media incompatibility

2003-11-03 Thread Geoffrey
Joerg Schilling wrote:

This is an illegal program that violates GPL!

It is definitely not a true cdrecord. If you have any problem with this
illegal program, call the distributor...
My mistake actually.  I had basically forwarded a message to the cdwrite 
list from someone else.  Didn't actually note the use of the 'other' 
software.  Thanks for bringing the issue forefront.

--
Until later, Geoffrey   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Building secure systems inspite of Microsoft

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Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread Joerg Schilling
From: Gary Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I have been using dvd+rw-tools (5.13.4.7.4) and mkisofs (cdrtools 1.11a29)
to write backups to DVD.  This generally works.  However I encountered
a problem when one of the files was 2351679431 bytes in size: the disk
was written with no errors reported, but on testing proved to be unreadable
to linux 2.4.21.  On mounting the disk a warning was reported:

Warning: defective CD-ROM.  Enabling cruft mount option.

The large file now appeared to be only 2869191 bytes and is truncated
on reading.

Examining the Linux sources shows the following comment in fs/isofs/inode.c:

   /*
* The ISO-9660 filesystem only stores 32 bits for file size.
* mkisofs handles files up to 2GB-2 = 2147483646 = 0x7FFE bytes
* in size. This is according to the large file summit paper from 1996.
* WARNING: ISO-9660 filesystems  1 GB and even  2 GB are fully
*  legal. Do not prevent to use DVD's [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*/
   if ((inode-i_size  0 || inode-i_size  0x7FFE) 
   inode-i_sb-u.isofs_sb.s_cruft == 'n') {
   printk(KERN_WARNING Warning: defective CD-ROM.  
  Enabling \cruft\ mount option.\n);
   inode-i_sb-u.isofs_sb.s_cruft = 'y';
   }

The hacky change is from me, but note:

-   As the source before did not support files  512 MB, nobody could
have tested multi extent files! 

-   If I would have removed the limitation completely, it would most 
likely not have been accepted as a patch :-(



Jörg

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Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread Joerg Schilling
From: Lourens Veen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  * The ISO-9660 filesystem only stores 32 bits for file size.

 But the ISO-9660 _standard_ stores 32 bits for the size of each
 _extent_ and there can be a virtually unlimited number of
 _extents_ in a single file at ISO-9660 Interchange Level 3.

But can a file span multiple extents? The way I read the comment 
Gary quoted, it's legal to have an image that is over 2GB in size, 
as long as each file inside that image is no larger than 2GB. I 
haven't actually read the spec though.

But then the whole comment seems odd. It looks to me like the 
WARNING was added later, and written by Jörg. That seems to me like 
the only logical way to explain why the comment says it's legal, 
but the code claims it's illegal to have files that are more than 
2GB in size.

Lastly, at the top of the file, there is

 *  1998  Eric Lammerts - ISO 9660 Level 3

so apparently at least someone looked at ISO Level 3 support. I'd 
say send a message to linux-kernel and see what they say about 
it...

You should ask him why he did not test his code

If he did test it, then the mount induced limitation would have gone
long ago.

Jörg

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Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread Joerg Schilling
From: Volker Kuhlmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 But can a file span multiple extents? The way I read the comment 
 Gary quoted, it's legal to have an image that is over 2GB in size, 
 as long as each file inside that image is no larger than 2GB.

Careful - the comment was about mkisofs, although it was in the kernel
source. It definitely says file*systems* 2GB are legal, otherwise it
says mkisofs can't handle single *files* 2GB - that doesn't
necessarily mean they're illegal. The comment may also be old and no
longer true for current versions of standards.

It is hard to implement things in mkisofs that cannot be tested.

Jörg

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Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread ljknews
At 1:50 PM +0100 11/3/03, Joerg Schilling wrote:
 From: Volker Kuhlmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 But can a file span multiple extents? The way I read the comment
 Gary quoted, it's legal to have an image that is over 2GB in size,
 as long as each file inside that image is no larger than 2GB.

Careful - the comment was about mkisofs, although it was in the kernel
source. It definitely says file*systems* 2GB are legal, otherwise it
says mkisofs can't handle single *files* 2GB - that doesn't
necessarily mean they're illegal. The comment may also be old and no
longer true for current versions of standards.

It is hard to implement things in mkisofs that cannot be tested.

Well such a resulting volume could certainly be tested, but I understand
that *IX developers may not have non-*IX systems readily available.


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Re: writeable block device for dvd+rw under 2.6 kernel

2003-11-03 Thread Csaba Halasz

 However, I am unable to write to /dev/hdx directly under 2.6.0-test8.
 With what kind of errors?

It is read-only. -EROFS, if I remember correctly.

 This works with the patched ide-scsi and sr_mod.
 Patched? With what patches?

With Andy's dvd+rw patches:
http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/linux-2.4.patch

 I have looked into ide-cd.c and I think it only supports writing for
 dvd-ram.

 Nope. It works just fine for CD-R and DVD+-R/W.

Are we talking about the same thing? I need a writeable
_block device_. I have _no problems_ using cdrecord or
growisofs (w/ poor man's access method).

Andy states on his page:
Linux 2.6 DVD+RW kernel support is planned in line with DVD+MRW 
kernel support. This [unfortunately] means that industry has to 
deliver a DVD+MRW capable unit first. Yes, the last sentence 
means that despite all the promises, there are no such units 
available on the market yet.

Regards,
Csaba


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Re: writeable block device for dvd+rw under 2.6 kernel

2003-11-03 Thread Markus Plail
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Csaba Halasz wrote:
 Are we talking about the same thing? I need a writeable
 _block device_. I have _no problems_ using cdrecord or
 growisofs (w/ poor man's access method).

Ah.. sorry. No I meant with cdrecord.

regards
Markus


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Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread Lourens Veen
On Mon 3 November 2003 00:06, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:
  But can a file span multiple extents? The way I read the
  comment Gary quoted, it's legal to have an image that is over
  2GB in size, as long as each file inside that image is no
  larger than 2GB.

 Careful - the comment was about mkisofs, although it was in the
 kernel source. It definitely says file*systems* 2GB are legal,
 otherwise it says mkisofs can't handle single *files* 2GB - that
 doesn't necessarily mean they're illegal. The comment may also be
 old and no longer true for current versions of standards.

Good point.

[...]
  That seems to me like
  the only logical way to explain why the comment says it's
  legal, but the code claims it's illegal to have files that are
  more than 2GB in size.

 You're mixing up file with filesystem here?

Erm, actually, what I said doesn't make sense at all. Never mind...

  so apparently at least someone looked at ISO Level 3 support.
  I'd say send a message to linux-kernel and see what they say
  about it...

 Yes, together with a raft of other iso9660 issues :(

 Perhaps mkisofs is now able to handle files 2GB, the lack of a
 suitable error when creating the filesystem does suggest so.
 However, for Linux that's a moot point as Linux doesn't handle
 2GB, but mkisofs isn't only used on Linux. Thanks Gary for the
 warning about that.

Linux in general does have large file support now doesn't it? 
Incidentally, I had a quick look at the same file in 2.6.0-test9, 
but apart from adding support for compressed iso9660 filesystems 
(zisofs?) and some stuff apparently to do with multisession 
handling nothing much seems to have changed here.

Lourens
-- 
GPG public key: http://home.student.utwente.nl/l.e.veen/lourens.key



Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread Volker Kuhlmann
 Linux in general does have large file support now doesn't it? 

Yes, for a little while. This is filesystem-dependent though!! Looks
like iso9660 has missed out so far.

Volker

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Re: DVD media incompatibility

2003-11-03 Thread Joerg Schilling
From: Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Do I need a later version of dvdrecord to use DVD-R 4x media in a LaCie
Multi Drive DVD-R/RAM recorder?  It isn't a drive that needs a firmware
upgrade to prevent damage such as a Pioneer drive.  Dvdrecord output the
error message I am including below when I try to write to the media.  It
isn't fair when the package label says compatible with 1X-4X but the
drive won't write to it!  I wouldn't have bought it but the new DVD
writer we just got is a 4X.  So, I thought I was buying a 50disc pack to
feed both writers.  Be warned by my experience here that you have to
test before assuming it'll work.  Googling the error condition from the
output below gives just a few people asking for help with media problems
on CD and DVD media.  Most thought the media was bad.  At $2/disc, I've
tried two discs several times.  Each time the failure code is the same.

  Thanks for your help,

PS. Watch for line wrapping from the webmail interface here.  Sorry
about that.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] root]# dvdrecord -v fs=32m speed=2 dev=0,0 -dao -force
-isosize /dev/cdrom;
dvdrtools v0.1.3

This is an illegal program that violates GPL!

It is definitely not a true cdrecord. If you have any problem with this
illegal program, call the distributor...

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
   [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni)  If you don't have iso-8859-1
   [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) chars I am Jorg Schilling
 URL:  http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/usr/schilling 
ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily



Re: [Cdrecord-support] Re: [Cdrecord-developers] Re: Cdrecord bug in DAO mode (version 2.01a19)

2003-11-03 Thread Joerg Schilling
From: Udo Buedel [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Rob Bogus wrote:

[incorrect audio cd]

 It's not clear why using a  newer version might trigger a problem, 
  but the firmware might have a bug in one mode or another.

The firmware in some LiteOn writer produce incorrect subchannel data for 
audio cd. In later firmware, this bug is fixed.

If cdrecord produce the subchannel data, then you get a correct audio 
cd: see option -raw.

As he is using a Lite-ON drive, he _needs_ to use RAW recording.

I have no information that this bug has been fixed already.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
   [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni)  If you don't have iso-8859-1
   [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) chars I am Jorg Schilling
 URL:  http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/usr/schilling 
ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily



Re: DVD media incompatibility

2003-11-03 Thread Geoffrey
Joerg Schilling wrote:
This is an illegal program that violates GPL!
It is definitely not a true cdrecord. If you have any problem with this
illegal program, call the distributor...
My mistake actually.  I had basically forwarded a message to the cdwrite 
list from someone else.  Didn't actually note the use of the 'other' 
software.  Thanks for bringing the issue forefront.

--
Until later, Geoffrey   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Building secure systems inspite of Microsoft


Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread Joerg Schilling
From: Gary Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I have been using dvd+rw-tools (5.13.4.7.4) and mkisofs (cdrtools 1.11a29)
to write backups to DVD.  This generally works.  However I encountered
a problem when one of the files was 2351679431 bytes in size: the disk
was written with no errors reported, but on testing proved to be unreadable
to linux 2.4.21.  On mounting the disk a warning was reported:

Warning: defective CD-ROM.  Enabling cruft mount option.

The large file now appeared to be only 2869191 bytes and is truncated
on reading.

Examining the Linux sources shows the following comment in fs/isofs/inode.c:

   /*
* The ISO-9660 filesystem only stores 32 bits for file size.
* mkisofs handles files up to 2GB-2 = 2147483646 = 0x7FFE bytes
* in size. This is according to the large file summit paper from 1996.
* WARNING: ISO-9660 filesystems  1 GB and even  2 GB are fully
*  legal. Do not prevent to use DVD's [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*/
   if ((inode-i_size  0 || inode-i_size  0x7FFE) 
   inode-i_sb-u.isofs_sb.s_cruft == 'n') {
   printk(KERN_WARNING Warning: defective CD-ROM.  
  Enabling \cruft\ mount option.\n);
   inode-i_sb-u.isofs_sb.s_cruft = 'y';
   }

The hacky change is from me, but note:

-   As the source before did not support files  512 MB, nobody could
have tested multi extent files! 

-   If I would have removed the limitation completely, it would most 
likely not have been accepted as a patch :-(



Jörg

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 EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
   [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni)  If you don't have iso-8859-1
   [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) chars I am Jorg Schilling
 URL:  http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/usr/schilling 
ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily



Incorrect Mail set up please correct!

2003-11-03 Thread Joerg Schilling

Somebody is posting from an illegal mail address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Please immediately fix this. It is extremely unfriendly to use illegal mail 
adresses
as this is the typical way spammers do their work.

Jörg

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Re: DVD media incompatibility

2003-11-03 Thread Sergio Visinoni
* Joerg Schilling ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 This is an illegal program that violates GPL!
how/why would it violate GPL?



Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread ljknews
At 1:50 PM +0100 11/3/03, Joerg Schilling wrote:
 From: Volker Kuhlmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 But can a file span multiple extents? The way I read the comment
 Gary quoted, it's legal to have an image that is over 2GB in size,
 as long as each file inside that image is no larger than 2GB.

Careful - the comment was about mkisofs, although it was in the kernel
source. It definitely says file*systems* 2GB are legal, otherwise it
says mkisofs can't handle single *files* 2GB - that doesn't
necessarily mean they're illegal. The comment may also be old and no
longer true for current versions of standards.

It is hard to implement things in mkisofs that cannot be tested.

Well such a resulting volume could certainly be tested, but I understand
that *IX developers may not have non-*IX systems readily available.



writeable block device for dvd+rw under 2.6 kernel

2003-11-03 Thread Csaba Halasz
Hi!

If I understand correctly, the use of ide-scsi under 2.6
is deprecated. However, I am unable to write to /dev/hdx
directly under 2.6.0-test8.
This works with the patched ide-scsi and sr_mod.
I have looked into ide-cd.c and I think it only
supports writing for dvd-ram. 

Am I missing something?

Greets,
Csaba



Re: writeable block device for dvd+rw under 2.6 kernel

2003-11-03 Thread Markus Plail
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Csaba Halasz wrote:
 If I understand correctly, the use of ide-scsi under 2.6
 is deprecated.

More or less, yes.

 However, I am unable to write to /dev/hdx directly under 2.6.0-test8.

With what kind of errors?

 This works with the patched ide-scsi and sr_mod.

Patched? With what patches?

 I have looked into ide-cd.c and I think it only supports writing for
 dvd-ram.

Nope. It works just fine for CD-R and DVD+-R/W.

regards
Markus



Re: writeable block device for dvd+rw under 2.6 kernel

2003-11-03 Thread Csaba Halasz

 However, I am unable to write to /dev/hdx directly under 2.6.0-test8.
 With what kind of errors?

It is read-only. -EROFS, if I remember correctly.

 This works with the patched ide-scsi and sr_mod.
 Patched? With what patches?

With Andy's dvd+rw patches:
http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/linux-2.4.patch

 I have looked into ide-cd.c and I think it only supports writing for
 dvd-ram.

 Nope. It works just fine for CD-R and DVD+-R/W.

Are we talking about the same thing? I need a writeable
_block device_. I have _no problems_ using cdrecord or
growisofs (w/ poor man's access method).

Andy states on his page:
Linux 2.6 DVD+RW kernel support is planned in line with DVD+MRW 
kernel support. This [unfortunately] means that industry has to 
deliver a DVD+MRW capable unit first. Yes, the last sentence 
means that despite all the promises, there are no such units 
available on the market yet.

Regards,
Csaba



Re: writeable block device for dvd+rw under 2.6 kernel

2003-11-03 Thread Markus Plail
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Csaba Halasz wrote:
 Are we talking about the same thing? I need a writeable
 _block device_. I have _no problems_ using cdrecord or
 growisofs (w/ poor man's access method).

Ah.. sorry. No I meant with cdrecord.

regards
Markus



Re: DVDs created with too large files

2003-11-03 Thread Gary Houston
Volker Kuhlmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 so apparently at least someone looked at ISO Level 3 support. I'd 
 say send a message to linux-kernel and see what they say about 
 it...

Yes, together with a raft of other iso9660 issues :(

Perhaps mkisofs is now able to handle files 2GB, the lack of a
suitable error when creating the filesystem does suggest so. However,
for Linux that's a moot point as Linux doesn't handle 2GB, but mkisofs
isn't only used on Linux. Thanks Gary for the warning about that.

It should be possible to retrieve the file with isoinfo -x, which
doesn't use any filesystem code.

This was interesting advice, or at least kept me busy for a while.
The man page for isoinfo says The user interface really sucks.  No
worries, I figured it out with a debugger:

isoinfo -x '/SRC.TAR;1' -i /dev/dvd  src.tar.gz

Unfortunately extract_file in isoinfo.c uses signed ints for file
sizes, so has a 2GB size limit.  Files larger than this are truncated
to 0 bytes.  For this exercise I changed int to size_t, but it would
be better to use large file I/O.

I made a new DVD with a large file (the old one has been used as a coaster
already and I wasn't going to put it back in the drive) and read it back
successfully with the modified isoinfo.

This indicates that mkisofs is working OK, or at least that mkisofs and
isoinfo are consistently with each other for large files.

I found that isoinfo from cdrtools 1.11a29 could give a listing of the
correct file sizes on the DVD, but then I upgraded to 2.00.3 and the
large file came out negative sized with this version.

To test another theory, I removed the automatic cruft check from the
kernel and mounted the disc: the file is still truncated, so it seems that
the ISO 9660 Level 3 support is not complete.  Unfortunately I don't have
access to a DVD drive on a non-Linux machine for comparison.

Gary



anyone seeing this kind of error ??

2003-11-03 Thread Uwe Simm
hi there,

anyone seeing this on:

Linux version 2.6.0-test9
GSA-4040B (attached via USB2.0)

any comments, suggestions etc.

/uwe



scsi0 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device
Unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference at virtual address 0009
 printing eip:
f88dc907
*pde = 
Oops:  [#1]
CPU:0
EIP:0060:[f88dc907]Tainted: P
EFLAGS: 00010246
EIP is at cdrom_release+0x87/0x120 [cdrom]
eax: 068b   ebx: f74872d8   ecx: f77fa9c0   edx: f798f08c
esi: 0001   edi: 0005   ebp: dc435f38   esp: dc435f24
ds: 007b   es: 007b   ss: 0068
Process growisofs (pid: 9784, threadinfo=dc434000 task=ea97ac80)
Stack: f74872d8 f798f118  f798f040 f798f040 dc435f64 c0163442 f74872d8
    f798f04c f77fa9c0 f798f08c  f51d2d40  f7ff4200
   dc435f88 c015b52d f798f040  f78a13c0 d8ac18c0 f51d2d40 
Call Trace:
 [c0163442] blkdev_put+0x1e2/0x210
 [c015b52d] __fput+0x11d/0x130
 [c0159af7] filp_close+0x57/0x80
 [c0159b82] sys_close+0x62/0xa0
 [c010a44b] syscall_call+0x7/0xb

Code: ff 57 04 8b 43 1c 85 c0 75 1f 85 f6 74 1b f6 43 18 02 74 15
 6hub 1-0:1.0: new USB device on port 3, assigned address 4
scsi3 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass Storage devices
  Vendor: HL-DT-ST  Model: DVDRAM GSA-4040B  Rev: A301
  Type:   CD-ROM ANSI SCSI revision: 02
sr0: scsi3-mmc drive: 32x/32x writer dvd-ram cd/rw xa/form2 cdda tray



Re: Incorrect Mail set up please correct!

2003-11-03 Thread Volker Kuhlmann
 Somebody is posting from an illegal mail address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Please immediately fix this. It is extremely unfriendly to use illegal mail 
 adresses
 as this is the typical way spammers do their work.

That would have been me, and it is a very effective spam protection and
therefore stays. It also minimises the total traffic between spammers
and my ISP, and my ISP and me. I *had* asked not to be cc'ed for list
postings, if you ignore that, you'll have to put up with the bounce. If
you can't work out my real email address I can't help you.

Volker

-- 
Volker Kuhlmann is possibly list0570 with the domain in header
http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.