Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Johnny Hughes]

On 10/26/2015 12:19 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> 
>> On 10/23/2015 03:44 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
>>> What FUD? It adds *binary* logfiles, readable only with a separate
>>> program; when I restart a service, it does not *tell* me what's going
>>> on,
>>> just worked or didn't, so I don't know, if it fails, where, the messages
>>> from journalctl are extremely unhelpful, and when it boots, if I want to
>>> watch, it tends to hide much info. It's much less informative in most
>>> ways
>>> in helping me solve problems.
>>>
>>
>> Jesus Christ .. do we really have to start ANOTHER systemd thread.
> 
> Yes.
> 
>> These lists are for providing USEFUL information to CentOS users ..
> 
> Let's get some information that might be useful:
> 
> Are binary logfiles an inherent part of systemd?
> If so, equating systemd with the devil would seem appropriate.
> My expectation is that it is not.
> 
> Is the aforementioned dearth of information an inherent part of systemd?
> If so, equating systemd with the devil would seem appropriate.
> My expectation is that it is not.
> 
> 
> The evil of binary journals for people is fairly cut and dry.
> If data is only for another program,
> making it binary when it could easily be text is against
> unix philosophy and a bad design choice, but not proof of evil.
> When the data is text specifically to be read by people,
> choosing to make it binary is evil and rude.

All of that might be true, however this is not the place to discuss that.

The goal if CentOS is to exactly build RHEL's source code.  We do that.
 If that is not what you want in a Linux distribution, then CentOS is
not for you .. that is just the facts.

We are not going to change something that is designed a certain way in
RHEL source code.

So, that means that the place to have those discussions is not on a
CentOS list, but on a list where something can be done about it.  On the
list where the code is actually developed, on a Fedora List or a RHEL list.


> 
> 
>> flame threads will result in list users who are moderated.
> 
> E.g. Johhny Hughes?
> 
> What do threat posts result in?
> 

That is not a threat, it is a promise.  I set the moderation bits on the
list.  I get dozens of emails off list asking for people to moderated on
the flame fest emails.

We should all be adult and professional enough to understand that
designing of software happens somewhere else and endlessly complaining
about it here does nothing to get it fixed.  It just annoys users who
want to use centos and get help using it.






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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Greg Lindahl]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 04:42:49PM -0500, Johnny Hughes wrote:

> That is not a threat, it is a promise.  I set the moderation bits on the
> list.  I get dozens of emails off list asking for people to moderated on
> the flame fest emails.

Johnny,

Thank you for providing this service to the community! I can
understand why people are upset about systemd, but this isn't the
place to rage about it.

-- greg


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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Michael Hennebry]

From https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos :
CentOS -- CentOS mailing list


About CentOSEnglish (USA)

This is a General discussion list for all issues CentOS. Security updates are 
currently announced on this list once daily. This list is read and reply for 
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To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the CentOS Archives.


On Mon, 26 Oct 2015, Johnny Hughes wrote:


On 10/26/2015 12:19 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Johnny Hughes wrote:


On 10/23/2015 03:44 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:

What FUD? It adds *binary* logfiles, readable only with a separate
program; when I restart a service, it does not *tell* me what's going
on,
just worked or didn't, so I don't know, if it fails, where, the messages
from journalctl are extremely unhelpful, and when it boots, if I want to
watch, it tends to hide much info. It's much less informative in most
ways
in helping me solve problems.



Jesus Christ .. do we really have to start ANOTHER systemd thread.


Yes.


These lists are for providing USEFUL information to CentOS users ..


Let's get some information that might be useful:

Are binary logfiles an inherent part of systemd?
If so, equating systemd with the devil would seem appropriate.
My expectation is that it is not.

Is the aforementioned dearth of information an inherent part of systemd?
If so, equating systemd with the devil would seem appropriate.
My expectation is that it is not.


The evil of binary journals for people is fairly cut and dry.
If data is only for another program,
making it binary when it could easily be text is against
unix philosophy and a bad design choice, but not proof of evil.
When the data is text specifically to be read by people,
choosing to make it binary is evil and rude.


All of that might be true, however this is not the place to discuss that.


Of course this is the place to whine about systemd
threads when journalctl is under discussion.


The goal if CentOS is to exactly build RHEL's source code.  We do that.
If that is not what you want in a Linux distribution, then CentOS is
not for you .. that is just the facts.

We are not going to change something that is designed a certain way in
RHEL source code.


The contents of /etc/ssh/ssh_config ?

Other post-install modifications are certainly possible.
A demon that continuously makes text copies of the journalctl logs?
A replacement for journalctl?


So, that means that the place to have those discussions is not on a
CentOS list, but on a list where something can be done about it.  On the
list where the code is actually developed, on a Fedora List or a RHEL list.






flame threads will result in list users who are moderated.


E.g. Johhny Hughes?

What do threat posts result in?



That is not a threat, it is a promise.  I set the moderation bits on the
list.  I get dozens of emails off list asking for people to moderated on
the flame fest emails.


Call it a promise if you want.
Denying that it is a threat is a bit much.


We should all be adult and professional enough to understand that
designing of software happens somewhere else and endlessly complaining
about it here does nothing to get it fixed.  It just annoys users who
want to use centos and get help using it.


--
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
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a haiku, a gang sign, a heiroglyph, and the blood of a virgin."
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Johnny Hughes]

On 10/24/2015 01:59 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
> 
> On Sat, October 24, 2015 12:23 pm, Keith Keller wrote:
>> On 2015-10-24, Johnny Hughes  wrote:
>>>
>>> For the sake of everyone's sanity .. if you (any user, not mark
>>> specifically) don't want to use systemd, then please don't use CentOS-7.
>>
>> For example, you could help out with Devuan, which aims to remove
>> systemd from Debian, or you can switch to Slackware, one of the few
>> major distros not to even include systemd (so far).
> 
> Or switch away from Linux, say, to (Free|Opnen|Net|PC-|...)BSD just to
> expand options. But to take advantage of the greatness of RHEL and CentOS
> life cycle you have to live with systemd and friends no matter what you
> thinks about them (you see, I already have convinced myself ;-).
> 
> And yes, thanks for everybody's effort to keep discussion off the insanely
> polarizing us topic(s).
>

I am quite happy even for there to be a SIG to modify CentOS-7 to not
require systemd and creating a variant of that branch.  Those
discussions (if enough volunteers were found to staff the SIG) would
take place on the CentOS-Devel mailing list.

But what is of no use to anyone is another 500 mail flame thread about
systemd being the devil.

>>
>> Johnny, thank you for your efforts in trying to keep the mailing list
>> on-topic.  :)





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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Mon, October 26, 2015 11:11 am, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> On 10/24/2015 01:59 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>> On Sat, October 24, 2015 12:23 pm, Keith Keller wrote:
>>> On 2015-10-24, Johnny Hughes  wrote:
 For the sake of everyone's sanity .. if you (any user, not mark
specifically) don't want to use systemd, then please don't use
CentOS-7.
>>> For example, you could help out with Devuan, which aims to remove
systemd from Debian, or you can switch to Slackware, one of the few
major distros not to even include systemd (so far).
>> Or switch away from Linux, say, to (Free|Opnen|Net|PC-|...)BSD just to
expand options. But to take advantage of the greatness of RHEL and
CentOS
>> life cycle you have to live with systemd and friends no matter what you
thinks about them (you see, I already have convinced myself ;-). And
yes, thanks for everybody's effort to keep discussion off the insanely
>> polarizing us topic(s).
>
> I am quite happy even for there to be a SIG to modify CentOS-7 to not
require systemd and creating a variant of that branch.  Those
> discussions (if enough volunteers were found to staff the SIG) would
take place on the CentOS-Devel mailing list.

I would be very interested in that. Not as a developer which I am not, but
as an end user (or almost end user as I am sysadmin ;-) If that happens,
will there be announcement on centos@centos.org list or I should subscribe
to CentOS-Devel mailing list?

Valeri

>
> But what is of no use to anyone is another 500 mail flame thread about
systemd being the devil.
>
>>> Johnny, thank you for your efforts in trying to keep the mailing list
on-topic.  :)
>
>
>
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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247





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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Michael Hennebry]

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Johnny Hughes wrote:


On 10/23/2015 03:44 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:

What FUD? It adds *binary* logfiles, readable only with a separate
program; when I restart a service, it does not *tell* me what's going on,
just worked or didn't, so I don't know, if it fails, where, the messages
from journalctl are extremely unhelpful, and when it boots, if I want to
watch, it tends to hide much info. It's much less informative in most ways
in helping me solve problems.



Jesus Christ .. do we really have to start ANOTHER systemd thread.


Yes.


These lists are for providing USEFUL information to CentOS users ..


Let's get some information that might be useful:

Are binary logfiles an inherent part of systemd?
If so, equating systemd with the devil would seem appropriate.
My expectation is that it is not.

Is the aforementioned dearth of information an inherent part of systemd?
If so, equating systemd with the devil would seem appropriate.
My expectation is that it is not.


The evil of binary journals for people is fairly cut and dry.
If data is only for another program,
making it binary when it could easily be text is against
unix philosophy and a bad design choice, but not proof of evil.
When the data is text specifically to be read by people,
choosing to make it binary is evil and rude.



flame threads will result in list users who are moderated.


E.g. Johhny Hughes?

What do threat posts result in?

--
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a haiku, a gang sign, a heiroglyph, and the blood of a virgin."
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Lamar Owen]

On 10/23/2015 05:45 PM, Yamaban wrote:

Well, looking back, during kernel 2.6 there was no systemd at all.
But! That was the time where udev and dbus came into the boot cycle.
...
What was the rationale to get udev into boot? -- Handling the ever
changing mess of plugable, switchable hardware. Not born and bred
for servers, but for mobiles (phones, tablets, laptops).
...
What was the rationale to let dbus near the system start at all?
 -- Again mobile development.



Was it?  Many servers are deployed as standard images, both physical and 
virtual, and having a single, standard, cloned image boot easily on 
multiple types of hardware makes lots of sense in this environment.  
Dbus is about hardware enumeration, both cold and hot plug.  And there 
are servers with hotplug PCIe, even hotplug CPU's. Dbus makes hotplug 
HDD support smoother, for instance, and hotplug isn't limited to USB or 
firewire (eSATA and external SAS, even fibre channel, can be hotplugged 
in most cases).


I still remember having to rebuild initrds when moving a clone from a 
server with one type of disk controller to another.  It should work a 
lot better with dynamic hardware detection in the initrd.  (I wont's say 
it's prefect, because I haven't personally tried every possible 
combination of hardware, but it has worked lately when I needed it to work.)


A SAN storage processor, for instance, must be able to hotplug drives, 
enclosures, front end and back end interfaces, power supplies, and 
sometimes even processors while staying up.



Systemd was just the latest development, and not the worst. Yes, it
could have gone better, and some of the devs have had more
head-in-the-clouds than feet-on-the-ground.

Looking back, systemd is the only "big" change since 2.6 that makes
sense for servers. ...


I would agree.


What was the jump forward for linux servers in this 16 years?
Better hardware support, ease of virtualization (as a guest and as a 
host), and dynamic hardware detection for rapid redeployment/hardware 
upgrade, just to mention three.


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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Keith Keller]

On 2015-10-24, Johnny Hughes  wrote:
>
> For the sake of everyone's sanity .. if you (any user, not mark
> specifically) don't want to use systemd, then please don't use CentOS-7.

For example, you could help out with Devuan, which aims to remove
systemd from Debian, or you can switch to Slackware, one of the few
major distros not to even include systemd (so far).

Johnny, thank you for your efforts in trying to keep the mailing list
on-topic.  :)

--keith

-- 
kkel...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us


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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Lamar Owen]

On 10/24/2015 10:08 AM, Lamar Owen wrote:


Was it?  Many servers are deployed as standard images, both physical 
and virtual, and having a single, standard, cloned image boot easily 
on multiple types of hardware makes lots of sense in this 
environment.  Dbus is about hardware enumeration, both cold and hot 
plug.  And there are servers with hotplug PCIe, even hotplug CPU's. 
Dbus makes hotplug HDD support smoother, for instance, and hotplug 
isn't limited to USB or firewire (eSATA and external SAS, even fibre 
channel, can be hotplugged in most cases).

s/Dbus/Udev/g

Argh. Long morning already.

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Johnny Hughes]

On 10/23/2015 03:44 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
> Jonathan Billings wrote:
>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:46 AM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
>>> James B. Byrne wrote:

 I am glad to discover that I am not losing my mind.  I too have been
 rather dismayed at the perceived increase in frequency with which I
 must reboot my servers.  I wondered whether this was simply a
 misconception on my part or an actual change in the environment.

 Apparently it is the later.
>>>
>>> So systemd moves Linux to more resemble Windows?
>>
>> No.  If anything, systemd handles upgrades better than SysV init, since it
>> handles re-execing better.  Please stop spreading FUD.
> 
> What FUD? It adds *binary* logfiles, readable only with a separate
> program; when I restart a service, it does not *tell* me what's going on,
> just worked or didn't, so I don't know, if it fails, where, the messages
> from journalctl are extremely unhelpful, and when it boots, if I want to
> watch, it tends to hide much info. It's much less informative in most ways
> in helping me solve problems.
> 

Jesus Christ .. do we really have to start ANOTHER systemd thread.

For the sake of everyone's sanity .. if you (any user, not mark
specifically) don't want to use systemd, then please don't use CentOS-7.
 CentOS-7 contains systemd and where ever Red Hat puts it, CentOS will
rebuild the source code.

If people don't like the distro, then use something else.

These lists are for providing USEFUL information to CentOS users ..
flame threads will result in list users who are moderated.




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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Sat, October 24, 2015 12:23 pm, Keith Keller wrote:
> On 2015-10-24, Johnny Hughes  wrote:
>>
>> For the sake of everyone's sanity .. if you (any user, not mark
>> specifically) don't want to use systemd, then please don't use CentOS-7.
>
> For example, you could help out with Devuan, which aims to remove
> systemd from Debian, or you can switch to Slackware, one of the few
> major distros not to even include systemd (so far).

Or switch away from Linux, say, to (Free|Opnen|Net|PC-|...)BSD just to
expand options. But to take advantage of the greatness of RHEL and CentOS
life cycle you have to live with systemd and friends no matter what you
thinks about them (you see, I already have convinced myself ;-).

And yes, thanks for everybody's effort to keep discussion off the insanely
polarizing us topic(s).

Valeri

>
> Johnny, thank you for your efforts in trying to keep the mailing list
> on-topic.  :)
>
> --keith
>
> --
> kkel...@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
>
>
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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[m . roth]

James B. Byrne wrote:
>
> On Thu, October 22, 2015 17:25, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>> . . . Still, disregarding the part some of us dislike personally
>> (plus often reboots necessary to install some vital updates
>> - which all Linuxes are prone to beginning somewhere around
>> 2.6 kernel) . . .
>
> I am glad to discover that I am not losing my mind.  I too have been
> rather dismayed at the perceived increase in frequency with which I
> must reboot my servers.  I wondered whether this was simply a
> misconception on my part or an actual change in the environment.
>
> Apparently it is the later.

So systemd moves Linux to more resemble Windows?

  mark

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[James B. Byrne]

On Thu, October 22, 2015 17:25, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
> . . . Still, disregarding the part some of us dislike personally
> (plus often reboots necessary to install some vital updates
> - which all Linuxes are prone to beginning somewhere around
> 2.6 kernel) . . .

I am glad to discover that I am not losing my mind.  I too have been
rather dismayed at the perceived increase in frequency with which I
must reboot my servers.  I wondered whether this was simply a
misconception on my part or an actual change in the environment.

Apparently it is the later.

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[John R Pierce]

On 10/23/2015 12:51 PM, Jonathan Billings wrote:

No.  If anything, systemd handles upgrades better than SysV init, since it 
handles re-execing better.  Please stop spreading FUD.


Most likely the glibc and openssl updates are what people are talking about.  
Doesn’t require a reboot, just restarting all the services that might have 
those libraries loaded.


and of course, new kernels generally require a reboot, unless you've got 
that live kernel update thing running (which scares the heck out of me).




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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Jonathan Billings]

On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:46 AM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
> James B. Byrne wrote:
>> 
>> I am glad to discover that I am not losing my mind.  I too have been
>> rather dismayed at the perceived increase in frequency with which I
>> must reboot my servers.  I wondered whether this was simply a
>> misconception on my part or an actual change in the environment.
>> 
>> Apparently it is the later.
> 
> So systemd moves Linux to more resemble Windows?


No.  If anything, systemd handles upgrades better than SysV init, since it 
handles re-execing better.  Please stop spreading FUD.


Most likely the glibc and openssl updates are what people are talking about.  
Doesn’t require a reboot, just restarting all the services that might have 
those libraries loaded.

--
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Fri, October 23, 2015 8:46 am, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
> James B. Byrne wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, October 22, 2015 17:25, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>>> . . . Still, disregarding the part some of us dislike personally
>>> (plus often reboots necessary to install some vital updates
>>> - which all Linuxes are prone to beginning somewhere around
>>> 2.6 kernel) . . .
>>
>> I am glad to discover that I am not losing my mind.  I too have been
>> rather dismayed at the perceived increase in frequency with which I
>> must reboot my servers.  I wondered whether this was simply a
>> misconception on my part or an actual change in the environment.
>>
>> Apparently it is the later.
>
> So systemd moves Linux to more resemble Windows?
>

I regret James cut out positive part I said - about great job both RH and
CentOS teams are doing!

But coming back to negative part (which is about almost any Linux
distribution). These often reboots started in my recollection around 2.6
kernel which is long ago. Already then one of my friends started calling
Linux "Lindoze" apparently stressing you need to reboot it often, like MS
Windows. I would suggest to take his label with a grain of salt, as he is
the one who also used funny name for another well known system, after
Oracle bough out Sun Microsystems he called Sun-Oracle "snorkel" (as if
you pronounce it awfully fast).

This was what made first step to "similarity" at least in one respect of
Linux to MS Windows. Is systemd yet another step? No comment from me, as
at some point I decided to not be on any side of apparently awfully
polarized on this issue community. ;-)

Valeri


Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Fri, October 23, 2015 9:40 am, John Hodrien wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>
>> But coming back to negative part (which is about almost any Linux
>> distribution). These often reboots started in my recollection around 2.6
>> kernel which is long ago.

I always admire the "creative trimming". You can really quite shift what
one tried to say. The above is _not_ the point I tried to make! ;-)

Valeri

>
> There's no way that needing a reboot is related to 2.6.  Indeed newer
> features
> like ksplice can /reduce/ the number of reboots required.
>
> jh
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[John Hodrien]

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Valeri Galtsev wrote:


But coming back to negative part (which is about almost any Linux
distribution). These often reboots started in my recollection around 2.6
kernel which is long ago.


There's no way that needing a reboot is related to 2.6.  Indeed newer features
like ksplice can /reduce/ the number of reboots required.

jh
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[m . roth]

Jonathan Billings wrote:
> On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:46 AM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
>> James B. Byrne wrote:
>>>
>>> I am glad to discover that I am not losing my mind.  I too have been
>>> rather dismayed at the perceived increase in frequency with which I
>>> must reboot my servers.  I wondered whether this was simply a
>>> misconception on my part or an actual change in the environment.
>>>
>>> Apparently it is the later.
>>
>> So systemd moves Linux to more resemble Windows?
>
> No.  If anything, systemd handles upgrades better than SysV init, since it
> handles re-execing better.  Please stop spreading FUD.

What FUD? It adds *binary* logfiles, readable only with a separate
program; when I restart a service, it does not *tell* me what's going on,
just worked or didn't, so I don't know, if it fails, where, the messages
from journalctl are extremely unhelpful, and when it boots, if I want to
watch, it tends to hide much info. It's much less informative in most ways
in helping me solve problems.

mark

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Johnny Hughes]

On 10/22/2015 12:40 PM, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> On 10/22/2015 10:31 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> So, it seems that the current version of PHP in Centos 7 is PHP 5.4.16
>> however this version of PHP stopped getting security support from the PHP
>> people one month ago [1].
>>
>> Now, our developers want to use the new and shiny PHP because they want to
>> use the latest version of Zend. They are proposing using this package [2]
>> but I never heard of this repo.
>>
>> Other than building the packages ourselves is there a more acceptable way
>> to run a later version of PHP?
>>
>> Thoughts? Experiences? Ramblings?
>>
> 
> I would point out that Red Hat backports items to RHEL-7 (and we
> therefore backport those into CentOS-7 when we rebuild the source code).
> 
> I would also point out that the developers who ignore RHEL then ignore
> getting their code into enterprises that use RHEL.  Being that those
> enterprises are the people PAYING for Linux, it MIGHT be the brightest
> idea for those developers to write code that they expect to be paid for
> for non-enterprise distributions :)
> 
> That said, software collections is one way to get newer development
> tools and we should have more software collections, including a newer
> version of php, very soon in CentOS-7.
> 
> The collections will go here when ready:
> 
> http://mirror.centos.org/centos/7/sclo/
> 
> Right now only a couple of things there.  Will be more soon.

Here is a very, very early version to look at:

http://cbs.centos.org/repos/sclo7-php55-rh-candidate/x86_64/os/

That is not ready for production, but an idea of what will be available.





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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Johnny Hughes]

On 10/22/2015 10:31 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> So, it seems that the current version of PHP in Centos 7 is PHP 5.4.16
> however this version of PHP stopped getting security support from the PHP
> people one month ago [1].
> 
> Now, our developers want to use the new and shiny PHP because they want to
> use the latest version of Zend. They are proposing using this package [2]
> but I never heard of this repo.
> 
> Other than building the packages ourselves is there a more acceptable way
> to run a later version of PHP?
> 
> Thoughts? Experiences? Ramblings?
> 

I would point out that Red Hat backports items to RHEL-7 (and we
therefore backport those into CentOS-7 when we rebuild the source code).

I would also point out that the developers who ignore RHEL then ignore
getting their code into enterprises that use RHEL.  Being that those
enterprises are the people PAYING for Linux, it MIGHT be the brightest
idea for those developers to write code that they expect to be paid for
for non-enterprise distributions :)

That said, software collections is one way to get newer development
tools and we should have more software collections, including a newer
version of php, very soon in CentOS-7.

The collections will go here when ready:

http://mirror.centos.org/centos/7/sclo/

Right now only a couple of things there.  Will be more soon.






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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Jonathan Billings]

On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 01:20:02PM -0300, Juan Bernhard wrote:
> If you want to change to a log term support, you should use php 5.6, this is
> under active development now.
> centos packagers mantainers should listen the PHP developers in this topic,
> they are the ones who really knows PHP

But you don't seem to understand CentOS.

The packages in the main repo aren't maintained by 'centos package
maintainers'.  They are rebuilt from RHEL source packages.  If you've
got a complaint with the version, complain to Red Hat.  As other have
explained in this thread, you should expect considerably longer
support from Red Hat (and thus CentOS) for any release of PHP than
you'll get from upstream PHP.

Sure, if you don't care about having a product continue working after
a couple years, go ahead and build the upstream version of PHP and
manually apply security updates yourself.  Maybe you can pay the PHP
developers to support it for you, since they really seem to know PHP. 

If you want to have a stable platform to deploy your web service, use
an enterprise operating system like CentOS.

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Thu, October 22, 2015 12:49 pm, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, Juan Bernhard wrote:
>>
>> El 22/10/2015 a las 01:40 p.m., Nux! escribió:
>>> Kai,
>>>
>>> It is a reality, but when you look at the RHEL target audience, it's
>>> not exactly hip devs deploying Docker in the cloud.
>>> Big corps, banks and the like have a very slow development cycle and
>>> long term support is absolutely crucial, software needs to run for
>>> years on end without glitches, without interruptions, in a very
>>> predictable manner etc.
>>>
>>> For the aforementioned devs I think the best answer are the software
>>> collections, that or just use a different distribution. It is what it
>>> is.
>>>
>>>
>>> Lucian
>>
>> Lucian, they also include the newer versions. The case of banks, who
>> need specially PHP version 5.3, are a slim 0.01% of php users, the rest
>> of the mortals, like me, who needs a simple webmail like horde running,
>> have problems because the rest of the world is not developing any more
>> with php 5.3 compatibility in mind
>>
>> Saludos, Juan
>>
>
> Correct .. but that is not who RHEL, CentOS, Ubuntu (LTS), or SLES type
> distros are for.  That is what Fedora, OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, Debian, Linux
> Mint and any other number of "Bleeding Edge" distros are for.  If you
> want latest and greatest .. well, then use latest and greatest.  If you
> want enterprise, then use CentOS.
>

And incidentally these 0.01% (even if the number is true) of Enterprise
users pay virtually 100% of RH income (the last is what the brilliant job
of individuals at RH is paid for from). Let's not forget they as well as
us have families to support.

Valeri

>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>>>
>>> Nux!
>>> www.nux.ro
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Kai Schaetzl" <mailli...@conactive.com>
>>>> To: centos@centos.org
>>>> Sent: Thursday, 22 October, 2015 17:33:33
>>>> Subject: Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers
>>>
>>>> Nux! wrote on Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:27:26 +0100 (BST):
>>>>
>>>>> It's irrelevant in this case that PHP 5.3 is EOL. It will continue
>>>>> to be supported by Red Hat with security patches.
>>>>
>>>> Exactly.
>>>> Nevertheless, PHP 5.6 is not "bleeding edge" as someone else said.
>>>> 5.5 and
>>>> 5.6 are really state of the art and often necessary to install certain
>>>> software packages or for some functionality. The packages provided by
>>>> RH
>>>> are much too fast outdated or have other problems. It's a reality.
>>>>
>>>> Kai
>
>
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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Johnny Hughes]

On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, Juan Bernhard wrote:
> 
> El 22/10/2015 a las 01:40 p.m., Nux! escribió:
>> Kai,
>>
>> It is a reality, but when you look at the RHEL target audience, it's
>> not exactly hip devs deploying Docker in the cloud.
>> Big corps, banks and the like have a very slow development cycle and
>> long term support is absolutely crucial, software needs to run for
>> years on end without glitches, without interruptions, in a very
>> predictable manner etc.
>>
>> For the aforementioned devs I think the best answer are the software
>> collections, that or just use a different distribution. It is what it is.
>>
>>
>> Lucian
> 
> Lucian, they also include the newer versions. The case of banks, who
> need specially PHP version 5.3, are a slim 0.01% of php users, the rest
> of the mortals, like me, who needs a simple webmail like horde running,
> have problems because the rest of the world is not developing any more
> with php 5.3 compatibility in mind
> 
> Saludos, Juan
> 

Correct .. but that is not who RHEL, CentOS, Ubuntu (LTS), or SLES type
distros are for.  That is what Fedora, OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, Debian, Linux
Mint and any other number of "Bleeding Edge" distros are for.  If you
want latest and greatest .. well, then use latest and greatest.  If you
want enterprise, then use CentOS.


>>
>> -- 
>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>>
>> Nux!
>> www.nux.ro
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kai Schaetzl" <mailli...@conactive.com>
>>> To: centos@centos.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, 22 October, 2015 17:33:33
>>> Subject: Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers
>>
>>> Nux! wrote on Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:27:26 +0100 (BST):
>>>
>>>> It's irrelevant in this case that PHP 5.3 is EOL. It will continue
>>>> to be supported by Red Hat with security patches.
>>>
>>> Exactly.
>>> Nevertheless, PHP 5.6 is not "bleeding edge" as someone else said.
>>> 5.5 and
>>> 5.6 are really state of the art and often necessary to install certain
>>> software packages or for some functionality. The packages provided by RH
>>> are much too fast outdated or have other problems. It's a reality.
>>>
>>> Kai




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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Johnny Hughes]

On 10/22/2015 03:40 PM, Juan Bernhard wrote:
> 
> El 22/10/2015 a las 03:00 p.m., Valeri Galtsev escribió:
>>
>> On Thu, October 22, 2015 12:49 pm, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>>> On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, Juan Bernhard wrote:

 El 22/10/2015 a las 01:40 p.m., Nux! escribió:
> Kai,
>
> It is a reality, but when you look at the RHEL target audience, it's
> not exactly hip devs deploying Docker in the cloud.
> Big corps, banks and the like have a very slow development cycle and
> long term support is absolutely crucial, software needs to run for
> years on end without glitches, without interruptions, in a very
> predictable manner etc.
>
> For the aforementioned devs I think the best answer are the software
> collections, that or just use a different distribution. It is what it
> is.
>
>
> Lucian

 Lucian, they also include the newer versions. The case of banks, who
 need specially PHP version 5.3, are a slim 0.01% of php users, the rest
 of the mortals, like me, who needs a simple webmail like horde running,
 have problems because the rest of the world is not developing any more
 with php 5.3 compatibility in mind

 Saludos, Juan

>>>
>>> Correct .. but that is not who RHEL, CentOS, Ubuntu (LTS), or SLES type
>>> distros are for.  That is what Fedora, OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, Debian, Linux
>>> Mint and any other number of "Bleeding Edge" distros are for.  If you
>>> want latest and greatest .. well, then use latest and greatest.  If you
>>> want enterprise, then use CentOS.
>>>
>>
>> And incidentally these 0.01% (even if the number is true) of Enterprise
>> users pay virtually 100% of RH income (the last is what the brilliant job
>> of individuals at RH is paid for from). Let's not forget they as well as
>> us have families to support.
>>
>> Valeri
> 
> Im not saying that they must remove this package, but they also should
> include the newer version. I use freebsd (and its not a toy distro like
> fedora), and you have several ports, php, php54, php55 and php56 to
> choose whatever you need.
> Please, dont think that I dont appreciate the RH job on this, some one
> should support a long term version, some applications needs this, but
> very few.
> Thats all. I needed to say this, this is the only thing that bother me
> of centos, and its a little thing. The solution is to add another repo,
> but is a petty that they dont include the newer version on the default
> one. Centos its a great distro, dont take this a complain... its just a
> suggestion.
> 
> Saludos, Juan

Like I said before .. software collections:

http://bit.ly/1GXl0L0






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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Juan Bernhard]

El 22/10/2015 a las 03:00 p.m., Valeri Galtsev escribió:


On Thu, October 22, 2015 12:49 pm, Johnny Hughes wrote:

On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, Juan Bernhard wrote:


El 22/10/2015 a las 01:40 p.m., Nux! escribió:

Kai,

It is a reality, but when you look at the RHEL target audience, it's
not exactly hip devs deploying Docker in the cloud.
Big corps, banks and the like have a very slow development cycle and
long term support is absolutely crucial, software needs to run for
years on end without glitches, without interruptions, in a very
predictable manner etc.

For the aforementioned devs I think the best answer are the software
collections, that or just use a different distribution. It is what it
is.


Lucian


Lucian, they also include the newer versions. The case of banks, who
need specially PHP version 5.3, are a slim 0.01% of php users, the rest
of the mortals, like me, who needs a simple webmail like horde running,
have problems because the rest of the world is not developing any more
with php 5.3 compatibility in mind

Saludos, Juan



Correct .. but that is not who RHEL, CentOS, Ubuntu (LTS), or SLES type
distros are for.  That is what Fedora, OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, Debian, Linux
Mint and any other number of "Bleeding Edge" distros are for.  If you
want latest and greatest .. well, then use latest and greatest.  If you
want enterprise, then use CentOS.



And incidentally these 0.01% (even if the number is true) of Enterprise
users pay virtually 100% of RH income (the last is what the brilliant job
of individuals at RH is paid for from). Let's not forget they as well as
us have families to support.

Valeri


Im not saying that they must remove this package, but they also should 
include the newer version. I use freebsd (and its not a toy distro like 
fedora), and you have several ports, php, php54, php55 and php56 to 
choose whatever you need.
Please, dont think that I dont appreciate the RH job on this, some one 
should support a long term version, some applications needs this, but 
very few.
Thats all. I needed to say this, this is the only thing that bother me 
of centos, and its a little thing. The solution is to add another repo, 
but is a petty that they dont include the newer version on the default 
one. Centos its a great distro, dont take this a complain... its just a 
suggestion.


Saludos, Juan







--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!

Nux!
www.nux.ro

- Original Message -

From: "Kai Schaetzl" <mailli...@conactive.com>
To: centos@centos.org
Sent: Thursday, 22 October, 2015 17:33:33
Subject: Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers



Nux! wrote on Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:27:26 +0100 (BST):


It's irrelevant in this case that PHP 5.3 is EOL. It will continue
to be supported by Red Hat with security patches.


Exactly.
Nevertheless, PHP 5.6 is not "bleeding edge" as someone else said.
5.5 and
5.6 are really state of the art and often necessary to install certain
software packages or for some functionality. The packages provided by
RH
are much too fast outdated or have other problems. It's a reality.

Kai



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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[John R Pierce]

On 10/22/2015 1:40 PM, Juan Bernhard wrote:


Im not saying that they must remove this package, but they also should 
include the newer version. I use freebsd (and its not a toy distro 
like fedora), and you have several ports, php, php54, php55 and php56 
to choose whatever you need.
Please, dont think that I dont appreciate the RH job on this, some one 
should support a long term version, some applications needs this, but 
very few.
Thats all. I needed to say this, this is the only thing that bother me 
of centos, and its a little thing. The solution is to add another 
repo, but is a petty that they dont include the newer version on the 
default one. Centos its a great distro, dont take this a complain... 
its just a suggestion. 


that suggestion would have to be made with RH, not CentOS, as the 
default CentOS package list *IS* the RHEL package list.




--
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Thu, October 22, 2015 3:45 pm, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> On 10/22/2015 03:40 PM, Juan Bernhard wrote:
>>
>> El 22/10/2015 a las 03:00 p.m., Valeri Galtsev escribió:
>>>
>>> On Thu, October 22, 2015 12:49 pm, Johnny Hughes wrote:
 On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, Juan Bernhard wrote:
>
> El 22/10/2015 a las 01:40 p.m., Nux! escribió:
>> Kai,
>>
>> It is a reality, but when you look at the RHEL target audience, it's
>> not exactly hip devs deploying Docker in the cloud.
>> Big corps, banks and the like have a very slow development cycle and
>> long term support is absolutely crucial, software needs to run for
>> years on end without glitches, without interruptions, in a very
>> predictable manner etc.
>>
>> For the aforementioned devs I think the best answer are the software
>> collections, that or just use a different distribution. It is what
>> it
>> is.
>>
>>
>> Lucian
>
> Lucian, they also include the newer versions. The case of banks, who
> need specially PHP version 5.3, are a slim 0.01% of php users, the
> rest
> of the mortals, like me, who needs a simple webmail like horde
> running,
> have problems because the rest of the world is not developing any
> more
> with php 5.3 compatibility in mind
>
> Saludos, Juan
>

 Correct .. but that is not who RHEL, CentOS, Ubuntu (LTS), or SLES
 type
 distros are for.  That is what Fedora, OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, Debian, Linux
 Mint and any other number of "Bleeding Edge" distros are for.  If you
 want latest and greatest .. well, then use latest and greatest.  If
 you
 want enterprise, then use CentOS.

>>>
>>> And incidentally these 0.01% (even if the number is true) of Enterprise
>>> users pay virtually 100% of RH income (the last is what the brilliant
>>> job
>>> of individuals at RH is paid for from). Let's not forget they as well
>>> as
>>> us have families to support.
>>>
>>> Valeri
>>
>> Im not saying that they must remove this package, but they also should
>> include the newer version. I use freebsd (and its not a toy distro like
>> fedora), and you have several ports, php, php54, php55 and php56 to
>> choose whatever you need.
>> Please, dont think that I dont appreciate the RH job on this, some one
>> should support a long term version, some applications needs this, but
>> very few.
>> Thats all. I needed to say this, this is the only thing that bother me
>> of centos, and its a little thing. The solution is to add another repo,
>> but is a petty that they dont include the newer version on the default
>> one. Centos its a great distro, dont take this a complain... its just a
>> suggestion.
>>
>> Saludos, Juan
>
> Like I said before .. software collections:
>
> http://bit.ly/1GXl0L0
>

I would add to software collections you mention and different Linux
distributions (differing in update/upgrade lifecycle scheme) also other
*nix-es, FreeBSD was one someone mentioned already (I too "half-moved"
servers to it), but there are many other choices of systems. Still,
disregarding the part some of us dislike personally (plus often reboots
necessary to install some vital updates - which all Linuxes are prone to
beginning somewhere around 2.6 kernel) I would say I really admire the
great job RH folks are doing - and definitely tremendous job CentOS
maintainers do!

Just my 0.02

Valeri


Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Thu, October 22, 2015 10:40 am, Jim Perrin wrote:
>
>
> On 10/22/2015 10:31 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> So, it seems that the current version of PHP in Centos 7 is PHP 5.4.16
>> however this version of PHP stopped getting security support from the
>> PHP
>> people one month ago [1].
>>
>> Now, our developers want to use the new and shiny PHP because they want
>> to
>> use the latest version of Zend. They are proposing using this package
>> [2]
>> but I never heard of this repo.

For me it sound like an example of the difference between "bleeding edge"
and "enterprise" systems. The first is what developers most often like,
the second is what humble sysadmins prefer as they have to keep something
developed long ago running for as long as possible - and without crashed,
daemons dying etc (== "bleeding" which always accompanies "bleeding edge"
anything). Sorry for venting my own usual pain here...

Valeri

>>
>> Other than building the packages ourselves is there a more acceptable
>> way
>> to run a later version of PHP?
>>
>> Thoughts? Experiences? Ramblings?
>
> I'm personally not a fan of the webtatic repository. This is mostly due
> to the number of users on irc who seem to have problems with it. I would
> recommend either the upcoming software collections packages or the IUS
> repository packages. https://iuscommunity.org/pages/About.html
>
> IUS has been a very good/reliable way to get more recent versions of
> things, and the folks responsible for it are active both on irc and in
> the mailing lists.
>
>
> --
> Jim Perrin
> The CentOS Project | http://www.centos.org
> twitter: @BitIntegrity | GPG Key: FA09AD77
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Valeri Galtsev
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Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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[CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Andrew Holway]

Hi,

So, it seems that the current version of PHP in Centos 7 is PHP 5.4.16
however this version of PHP stopped getting security support from the PHP
people one month ago [1].

Now, our developers want to use the new and shiny PHP because they want to
use the latest version of Zend. They are proposing using this package [2]
but I never heard of this repo.

Other than building the packages ourselves is there a more acceptable way
to run a later version of PHP?

Thoughts? Experiences? Ramblings?

Ta,

Andrew

[1] - http://php.net/supported-versions.php
[2] - https://webtatic.com/packages/php56/
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Nux!]

Have a look at http://softwarecollections.org/
IUS could also be a good choice 
http://dl.iuscommunity.org/pub/ius/archive/CentOS/7/x86_64/

--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!

Nux!
www.nux.ro

- Original Message -
> From: "Andrew Holway" <andrew.hol...@gmail.com>
> To: "centos" <centos@centos.org>
> Sent: Thursday, 22 October, 2015 16:31:46
> Subject: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

> Hi,
> 
> So, it seems that the current version of PHP in Centos 7 is PHP 5.4.16
> however this version of PHP stopped getting security support from the PHP
> people one month ago [1].
> 
> Now, our developers want to use the new and shiny PHP because they want to
> use the latest version of Zend. They are proposing using this package [2]
> but I never heard of this repo.
> 
> Other than building the packages ourselves is there a more acceptable way
> to run a later version of PHP?
> 
> Thoughts? Experiences? Ramblings?
> 
> Ta,
> 
> Andrew
> 
> [1] - http://php.net/supported-versions.php
> [2] - https://webtatic.com/packages/php56/
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Jim Perrin]

On 10/22/2015 10:31 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> So, it seems that the current version of PHP in Centos 7 is PHP 5.4.16
> however this version of PHP stopped getting security support from the PHP
> people one month ago [1].
> 
> Now, our developers want to use the new and shiny PHP because they want to
> use the latest version of Zend. They are proposing using this package [2]
> but I never heard of this repo.
> 
> Other than building the packages ourselves is there a more acceptable way
> to run a later version of PHP?
> 
> Thoughts? Experiences? Ramblings?

I'm personally not a fan of the webtatic repository. This is mostly due
to the number of users on irc who seem to have problems with it. I would
recommend either the upcoming software collections packages or the IUS
repository packages. https://iuscommunity.org/pages/About.html

IUS has been a very good/reliable way to get more recent versions of
things, and the folks responsible for it are active both on irc and in
the mailing lists.


-- 
Jim Perrin
The CentOS Project | http://www.centos.org
twitter: @BitIntegrity | GPG Key: FA09AD77
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Kai Schaetzl]

I've been using IUS in the past. They have a good way of naming their 
rpms, so they don't interfere with the RH rpms. But they don't support 
older CentOS versions still on extended support as long as I needed them. 
And they don't provide as much php-related rpms (f.i. pecl-stuff) as remi 
does.
So, with newer PHP versions I had to go to remi's repo. Combined with EPEL 
(and rpmforge being dead, anyway) it's working quite fine here for PHP 5.5 
and 5.6. He provides files for CentOS 5, 6 and 7. The only caveat is that 
he uses the same rpm names as with the original ones. So, you have to give 
this repo the same priority as the base repo has. In consequence you have 
to be careful what it wants to install as dependencies and exclude a 
package sometimes. But all in all it works very well.

I've used the webtatic repo once for a special case. I don't know exactly 
why but I wouldn't recommend it.

If IUS provides the version you need I'd go with that.

Kai


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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Kai Schaetzl]

Nux! wrote on Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:27:26 +0100 (BST):

> It's irrelevant in this case that PHP 5.3 is EOL. It will continue
> to be supported by Red Hat with security patches.

Exactly.
Nevertheless, PHP 5.6 is not "bleeding edge" as someone else said. 5.5 and 
5.6 are really state of the art and often necessary to install certain 
software packages or for some functionality. The packages provided by RH 
are much too fast outdated or have other problems. It's a reality.

Kai


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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Nux!]

Kai,

It is a reality, but when you look at the RHEL target audience, it's not 
exactly hip devs deploying Docker in the cloud.
Big corps, banks and the like have a very slow development cycle and long term 
support is absolutely crucial, software needs to run for years on end without 
glitches, without interruptions, in a very predictable manner etc.

For the aforementioned devs I think the best answer are the software 
collections, that or just use a different distribution. It is what it is.


Lucian

--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!

Nux!
www.nux.ro

- Original Message -
> From: "Kai Schaetzl" <mailli...@conactive.com>
> To: centos@centos.org
> Sent: Thursday, 22 October, 2015 17:33:33
> Subject: Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

> Nux! wrote on Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:27:26 +0100 (BST):
> 
>> It's irrelevant in this case that PHP 5.3 is EOL. It will continue
>> to be supported by Red Hat with security patches.
> 
> Exactly.
> Nevertheless, PHP 5.6 is not "bleeding edge" as someone else said. 5.5 and
> 5.6 are really state of the art and often necessary to install certain
> software packages or for some functionality. The packages provided by RH
> are much too fast outdated or have other problems. It's a reality.
> 
> Kai
> 
> 
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[m . roth]

Valeri Galtsev wrote:
> On Thu, October 22, 2015 10:40 am, Jim Perrin wrote:
>> On 10/22/2015 10:31 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
>>>
>>> So, it seems that the current version of PHP in Centos 7 is PHP 5.4.16
>>> however this version of PHP stopped getting security support from the
>>> PHP people one month ago [1].
>>>
>>> Now, our developers want to use the new and shiny PHP because they want
>>> to use the latest version of Zend. They are proposing using this
>>> package [2] but I never heard of this repo.
>
> For me it sound like an example of the difference between "bleeding edge"
> and "enterprise" systems. The first is what developers most often like,
> the second is what humble sysadmins prefer as they have to keep something
> developed long ago running for as long as possible - and without crashed,
> daemons dying etc (== "bleeding" which always accompanies "bleeding edge"
> anything). Sorry for venting my own usual pain here...
>
Add another of that opinion. All the years that I did development, I never
needed bleeding edge, and I've done a lot. On the other hand, if the spec
said the current version would support something, it *better*, because,
sooner or later, I'd find a need to use whatever.

Bleeding edge never supports that NEWSHINY without breaking Like the
team lead, now years gone, who built a project here in ruby on rails...
and was constantly *terrified* when I wanted/needed to update the servers
that was on, and stayed on "enterprise version whatever", without current
updates Things like that are what I refer to as fragile

 mark

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Juan Bernhard]

El 22/10/2015 a las 12:48 p.m., Valeri Galtsev escribió:


On Thu, October 22, 2015 10:40 am, Jim Perrin wrote:



On 10/22/2015 10:31 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:

Hi,

So, it seems that the current version of PHP in Centos 7 is PHP 5.4.16
however this version of PHP stopped getting security support from the
PHP
people one month ago [1].

Now, our developers want to use the new and shiny PHP because they want
to
use the latest version of Zend. They are proposing using this package
[2]
but I never heard of this repo.


For me it sound like an example of the difference between "bleeding edge"
and "enterprise" systems. The first is what developers most often like,
the second is what humble sysadmins prefer as they have to keep something
developed long ago running for as long as possible - and without crashed,
daemons dying etc (== "bleeding" which always accompanies "bleeding edge"
anything). Sorry for venting my own usual pain here...

Valeri


PHP 5.4 is in EOL, it get no more security updates from PHP 
developers... its may be a security risk to use this in in long term.
centos should change the php version more ofthen. I dont uderstand 
centos 6, its still using php 5.3, who got EOL a year ago... I had to 
switch to another repo to get this (to not get the headache by compile 
by hand).
If you want to change to a log term support, you should use php 5.6, 
this is under active development now.
centos packagers mantainers should listen the PHP developers in this 
topic, they are the ones who really knows PHP

http://php.net/supported-versions.php





Other than building the packages ourselves is there a more acceptable
way
to run a later version of PHP?

Thoughts? Experiences? Ramblings?


I'm personally not a fan of the webtatic repository. This is mostly due
to the number of users on irc who seem to have problems with it. I would
recommend either the upcoming software collections packages or the IUS
repository packages. https://iuscommunity.org/pages/About.html

IUS has been a very good/reliable way to get more recent versions of
things, and the folks responsible for it are active both on irc and in
the mailing lists.


--
Jim Perrin
The CentOS Project | http://www.centos.org
twitter: @BitIntegrity | GPG Key: FA09AD77
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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Nux!]

Juan,

You need to be aware how RHEL distributes software. Please read
https://access.redhat.com/security/updates/backporting

It's irrelevant in this case that PHP 5.3 is EOL. It will continue to be 
supported by Red Hat with security patches.

--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!

Nux!
www.nux.ro

- Original Message -
> From: "Juan Bernhard" <j...@inti.gob.ar>
> To: centos@centos.org
> Sent: Thursday, 22 October, 2015 17:20:02
> Subject: Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

> El 22/10/2015 a las 12:48 p.m., Valeri Galtsev escribió:
>>
>> On Thu, October 22, 2015 10:40 am, Jim Perrin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/22/2015 10:31 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> So, it seems that the current version of PHP in Centos 7 is PHP 5.4.16
>>>> however this version of PHP stopped getting security support from the
>>>> PHP
>>>> people one month ago [1].
>>>>
>>>> Now, our developers want to use the new and shiny PHP because they want
>>>> to
>>>> use the latest version of Zend. They are proposing using this package
>>>> [2]
>>>> but I never heard of this repo.
>>
>> For me it sound like an example of the difference between "bleeding edge"
>> and "enterprise" systems. The first is what developers most often like,
>> the second is what humble sysadmins prefer as they have to keep something
>> developed long ago running for as long as possible - and without crashed,
>> daemons dying etc (== "bleeding" which always accompanies "bleeding edge"
>> anything). Sorry for venting my own usual pain here...
>>
>> Valeri
> 
> PHP 5.4 is in EOL, it get no more security updates from PHP
> developers... its may be a security risk to use this in in long term.
> centos should change the php version more ofthen. I dont uderstand
> centos 6, its still using php 5.3, who got EOL a year ago... I had to
> switch to another repo to get this (to not get the headache by compile
> by hand).
> If you want to change to a log term support, you should use php 5.6,
> this is under active development now.
> centos packagers mantainers should listen the PHP developers in this
> topic, they are the ones who really knows PHP
> http://php.net/supported-versions.php
> 
>>
>>>>
>>>> Other than building the packages ourselves is there a more acceptable
>>>> way
>>>> to run a later version of PHP?
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts? Experiences? Ramblings?
>>>
>>> I'm personally not a fan of the webtatic repository. This is mostly due
>>> to the number of users on irc who seem to have problems with it. I would
>>> recommend either the upcoming software collections packages or the IUS
>>> repository packages. https://iuscommunity.org/pages/About.html
>>>
>>> IUS has been a very good/reliable way to get more recent versions of
>>> things, and the folks responsible for it are active both on irc and in
>>> the mailing lists.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jim Perrin
>>> The CentOS Project | http://www.centos.org
>>> twitter: @BitIntegrity | GPG Key: FA09AD77
>>> ___
>>> CentOS mailing list
>>> CentOS@centos.org
>>> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> Valeri Galtsev
>> Sr System Administrator
>> Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
>> Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
>> University of Chicago
>> Phone: 773-702-4247
>> 
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>>
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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Thu, October 22, 2015 11:20 am, Juan Bernhard wrote:
>
> El 22/10/2015 a las 12:48 p.m., Valeri Galtsev escribió:
>> On Thu, October 22, 2015 10:40 am, Jim Perrin wrote:
>>> On 10/22/2015 10:31 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
 Hi,
 So, it seems that the current version of PHP in Centos 7 is PHP
5.4.16
 however this version of PHP stopped getting security support from the
PHP
 people one month ago [1].
 Now, our developers want to use the new and shiny PHP because they want
 to
 use the latest version of Zend. They are proposing using this package
[2]
 but I never heard of this repo.
>> For me it sound like an example of the difference between "bleeding edge"
>> and "enterprise" systems. The first is what developers most often like,
the second is what humble sysadmins prefer as they have to keep
something
>> developed long ago running for as long as possible - and without crashed,
>> daemons dying etc (== "bleeding" which always accompanies "bleeding edge"
>> anything). Sorry for venting my own usual pain here...
>> Valeri
>
> PHP 5.4 is in EOL, it get no more security updates from PHP
> developers... its may be a security risk to use this in in long term.
centos should change the php version more ofthen. I dont uderstand
centos 6, its still using php 5.3, who got EOL a year ago... I had to
switch to another repo to get this (to not get the headache by compile
by hand).
> If you want to change to a log term support, you should use php 5.6,
this is under active development now.
> centos packagers mantainers should listen the PHP developers in this
topic, they are the ones who really knows PHP
> http://php.net/supported-versions.php
>

This yet once more exemplifies the point I was trying to make. If I build
new system (with new components of end point software using, say PHP),
then I would pick the latest stable version of PHP. Exactly as you are
point out. And I prefer to roll new box out with all latest stable
everything. From this point on, once I have the box in production, I often
have no luxury (when time goes by) to upgrade some components other stuff
needs to run with. Like PHP that will be latest stable 3 years down the
road will be several minor versions up, and some of my end components may
not run with it as some internals may have changed. At this point it is
exactly what I am trying to stress: either I break things that I have no
newer version that works with latest version of PHP, or I can stay with
older version of PHP - if at all possible. This is basically the
difference between, say, Debian (and clones) style of updates/upgrades
(when update bring you new version of package) and RH Enterprise Linux
which keeps older version (thus preserving all internals), and [doing
tremendous job of] backporting security and bug fixes implemented in new
version to older version. At least this is what we loved about RHEL - not
quite sure to what extent it still is true recently.

The best example of really troublesome compatibility would be python and
modules for it. To my python developers and users I call python a "sneaky
snake". Whoever worked with python and modules written for it knows what I
talk about: you always beed to match versions of modules rather rigorously
the version of python itself, or things will not work. There is, however
excellent "Enterprise" piece of software written in python: mailman. I
really never had any trouble of any kind with mailman. This is what I
figure Mark meant when he said you can write software which will work with
big range of different versions of whatever it depends on - he is (was?)
developer, he knows what he is talking about.

Valeri


Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247





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Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers

[Juan Bernhard]

El 22/10/2015 a las 01:40 p.m., Nux! escribió:

Kai,

It is a reality, but when you look at the RHEL target audience, it's not 
exactly hip devs deploying Docker in the cloud.
Big corps, banks and the like have a very slow development cycle and long term 
support is absolutely crucial, software needs to run for years on end without 
glitches, without interruptions, in a very predictable manner etc.

For the aforementioned devs I think the best answer are the software 
collections, that or just use a different distribution. It is what it is.


Lucian


Lucian, they also include the newer versions. The case of banks, who 
need specially PHP version 5.3, are a slim 0.01% of php users, the rest 
of the mortals, like me, who needs a simple webmail like horde running, 
have problems because the rest of the world is not developing any more 
with php 5.3 compatibility in mind


Saludos, Juan



--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!

Nux!
www.nux.ro

- Original Message -

From: "Kai Schaetzl" <mailli...@conactive.com>
To: centos@centos.org
Sent: Thursday, 22 October, 2015 17:33:33
Subject: Re: [CentOS] PHP version not enough for developers



Nux! wrote on Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:27:26 +0100 (BST):


It's irrelevant in this case that PHP 5.3 is EOL. It will continue
to be supported by Red Hat with security patches.


Exactly.
Nevertheless, PHP 5.6 is not "bleeding edge" as someone else said. 5.5 and
5.6 are really state of the art and often necessary to install certain
software packages or for some functionality. The packages provided by RH
are much too fast outdated or have other problems. It's a reality.

Kai


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