Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet
with multiple geeks in the house, I've survived for years with 8M down 1M up (I
live in southern california in the middle of a city of >100k people and it's
only in the last year I've been able to get better, which is 600/30 for $300/m).
100M is a lot (especially 100M upload)
My sister is in rural Michigan and the best she can get is 2M (until starlink),
with 3 kids doing remote learning and her teaching. Not great, but they survived
2020 with it.
yes, more is nice, but saying that 100Mb is not enough is ignoring the huge
population that isn't getting 1/10 of that today.
David Lang
On Wed, 31 Mar 2021, Karl Auerbach wrote:
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:55:45 -0700
From: Karl Auerbach
To: Dave Taht ,
William Allen Simpson
Cc: cerowrt-devel
Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet
100mbits/second is to my mind rather inadequate. It is surprising how
chatty my house is even in the wee hours in this era of IoT and massive
software updates for phones, cars, and toasters.
I have concern that policy is being made using a simple number
("bandwidth") to represent something too complex to be characterized by
any single number.
I wrote a note about that a while back, I think it dovetails with your
point about obtaining "better bandwidth" based on the way bandwidth is
going to be used:
Why You Shouldn't Believe Network Speed Tests -
https://blog.iwl.com/blog/do_not_trust_speed_tests
(In a slightly different direction, way back in time I did a quite
partial design of a protocol to evaluate hop-by-hop path characteristics
in a lightweight way and in not much more than a small multiple of
round-trip time.
https://www.cavebear.com/archive/fpcp/fpcp-sept-19-2000.html I still
think we need something like that in order to improve the way that
clients chose among replicated resources on the net.)
--karl--
On 3/31/21 5:48 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
It would be really nice if there was some string I could pull to get
the senators behind this
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/100mbps-uploads-and-downloads-should-be-us-broadband-standard-senators-say/
to help morph this:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9e3I/edit?usp=sharing
into something actionable.
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 3:39 AM William Allen Simpson
wrote:
Thanks. I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list.
If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it.
(My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.)
I am terribly sorry to hear that. I worry a lot about the rapidity of
the rollout here without regard for potential side-effects, and since
I've been so successfully self isolating on my boat,
and kind of used to it, generally have felt that it was better that
early adoptors and people that really need it get theirs first.
I also recently re-watched the stepford wives, which doesn't help.
Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach. I've had the opportunity of
Karl is a fascinating person and more people should read him and his blog.
living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years.
As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics.
We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also
involved in politics, but are very bad at it.
I am willing to re-enter it, reluctantly.
On 3/31/21 12:17 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
I note I really like the internet history mailing list.
-- Forwarded message -
From: Dave Täht
Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:50 PM
Subject: geeks, internet
To:
- Forwarded message from the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history -
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000
From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
To: Internet-history
Subject: Re: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet
-- Forwarded message -
From: Karl Auerbach
Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9
That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet.
Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are
incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as
the
trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though
ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year
money pump of monopoly-rent profit.)
Over the years I've spent a fair amount of time among both "geeks" and
"policymakers".
There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps.
However
there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social
forces. The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's
depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL
email account.
The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is
essential. But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the
blind men who each perceive the creature as on
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet
100mbits/second is to my mind rather inadequate. It is surprising how
chatty my house is even in the wee hours in this era of IoT and massive
software updates for phones, cars, and toasters.
I have concern that policy is being made using a simple number
("bandwidth") to represent something too complex to be characterized by
any single number.
I wrote a note about that a while back, I think it dovetails with your
point about obtaining "better bandwidth" based on the way bandwidth is
going to be used:
Why You Shouldn't Believe Network Speed Tests -
https://blog.iwl.com/blog/do_not_trust_speed_tests
(In a slightly different direction, way back in time I did a quite
partial design of a protocol to evaluate hop-by-hop path characteristics
in a lightweight way and in not much more than a small multiple of
round-trip time.
https://www.cavebear.com/archive/fpcp/fpcp-sept-19-2000.html I still
think we need something like that in order to improve the way that
clients chose among replicated resources on the net.)
--karl--
On 3/31/21 5:48 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
It would be really nice if there was some string I could pull to get
the senators behind this
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/100mbps-uploads-and-downloads-should-be-us-broadband-standard-senators-say/
to help morph this:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9e3I/edit?usp=sharing
into something actionable.
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 3:39 AM William Allen Simpson
wrote:
Thanks. I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list.
If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it.
(My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.)
I am terribly sorry to hear that. I worry a lot about the rapidity of
the rollout here without regard for potential side-effects, and since
I've been so successfully self isolating on my boat,
and kind of used to it, generally have felt that it was better that
early adoptors and people that really need it get theirs first.
I also recently re-watched the stepford wives, which doesn't help.
Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach. I've had the opportunity of
Karl is a fascinating person and more people should read him and his blog.
living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years.
As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics.
We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also
involved in politics, but are very bad at it.
I am willing to re-enter it, reluctantly.
On 3/31/21 12:17 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
I note I really like the internet history mailing list.
-- Forwarded message -
From: Dave Täht
Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:50 PM
Subject: geeks, internet
To:
- Forwarded message from the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history -
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000
From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history
To: Internet-history
Subject: Re: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet
-- Forwarded message -
From: Karl Auerbach
Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9
That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet.
Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are
incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as the
trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though
ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year
money pump of monopoly-rent profit.)
Over the years I've spent a fair amount of time among both "geeks" and
"policymakers".
There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps. However
there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social
forces. The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's
depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL
email account.
The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is
essential. But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the
blind men who each perceive the creature as only the small piece that they
can touch and do not comprehend the total. Those who are experts in one
field are often somewhat blind in other fields.
This is why we need governance by entities that strive for a synoptic view,
that operate on the basis of respect for all concerns and listen (and
consider) all voices. The organs of decision of such entities ought to be
filled with intelligent, open-minded generalists. Those generalists may
not comprehend the entire elephant, but they will know that whatever it is,
it is more than merely a tail or trunk or tree-like legs.
(This is part of the foundation of my argument that STEM education needs to
be balanced by a strong dose of liberal arts - we need to tune our
educations machinery to create those smart generalists.)
For many decades the Internet had an air gap from society. That gap no
longer exists. The Internet is now a
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet
It would be really nice if there was some string I could pull to get the senators behind this https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/100mbps-uploads-and-downloads-should-be-us-broadband-standard-senators-say/ to help morph this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9e3I/edit?usp=sharing into something actionable. On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 3:39 AM William Allen Simpson wrote: > > Thanks. I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list. > If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it. > (My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.) I am terribly sorry to hear that. I worry a lot about the rapidity of the rollout here without regard for potential side-effects, and since I've been so successfully self isolating on my boat, and kind of used to it, generally have felt that it was better that early adoptors and people that really need it get theirs first. I also recently re-watched the stepford wives, which doesn't help. > > Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach. I've had the opportunity of Karl is a fascinating person and more people should read him and his blog. > living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years. > > As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics. > We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also > involved in politics, but are very bad at it. I am willing to re-enter it, reluctantly. > > > On 3/31/21 12:17 AM, Dave Taht wrote: > > I note I really like the internet history mailing list. > > > > -- Forwarded message - > > From: Dave Täht > > Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:50 PM > > Subject: geeks, internet > > To: > > > > > > - Forwarded message from the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > > Internet-history - > > > > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000 > > From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history > > > > To: Internet-history > > Subject: Re: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet > > > > -- Forwarded message - > > From: Karl Auerbach > > Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9 > > > > That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet. > > > > Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are > > incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as the > > trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though > > ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year > > money pump of monopoly-rent profit.) > > > > Over the years I've spent a fair amount of time among both "geeks" and > > "policymakers". > > > > There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps. However > > there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social > > forces. The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's > > depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL > > email account. > > > > The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is > > essential. But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the > > blind men who each perceive the creature as only the small piece that they > > can touch and do not comprehend the total. Those who are experts in one > > field are often somewhat blind in other fields. > > > > This is why we need governance by entities that strive for a synoptic view, > > that operate on the basis of respect for all concerns and listen (and > > consider) all voices. The organs of decision of such entities ought to be > > filled with intelligent, open-minded generalists. Those generalists may > > not comprehend the entire elephant, but they will know that whatever it is, > > it is more than merely a tail or trunk or tree-like legs. > > > > (This is part of the foundation of my argument that STEM education needs to > > be balanced by a strong dose of liberal arts - we need to tune our > > educations machinery to create those smart generalists.) > > > > For many decades the Internet had an air gap from society. That gap no > > longer exists. The Internet is now a fundamental critical infrastructure. > > It is also being comprehended as a marvelous tool for control, data > > gathering, public-opinion shaping, profit making, and a force in national an > > international politics. > > > > Take the 5G push for example. At its edges it is starting to give off a > > scent of attempting to be the new ISO/OSI. There's some good stuff in 5G, > > as there was in ISO/OSI. But the decisions about deployment of 5G, it's > > frequency bands, its use in vehicle-to-X communications, etc go well beyond > > the merely technical. > > > > If we let "the geeks" run the farm we can expect a lot of new Facebooks and > > Zuckerbergs - lots of technology without comprehension of, nor care for, > > the social impact. > > > > Do we really want to resurrect a world run by trade guilds? Is one going > > to be required to go through
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet
Self-correction: Turns out that my mail archives had a previous post here 2 years ago mentioning internet-history, and the announcement on end2end-interest list back on Fri, 20 Jul 2001. But I'd never read either message. In retrospect, a sad mistake on my part. On 3/31/21 6:39 AM, William Allen Simpson wrote: Thanks. I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list. If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it. (My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.) Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach. I've had the opportunity of living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years. As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics. We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also involved in politics, but are very bad at it. On 3/31/21 12:17 AM, Dave Taht wrote: I note I really like the internet history mailing list. ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet
Thanks. I didn't know about the internet-history mailing list. If I survive my covid vaccination today, I'll join it. (My father died within 4 hours of his 1st Moderna dose.) Strongly agree with Karl Auerbach. I've had the opportunity of living with a (now former) Member of Congress for 20+ years. As I've said many times, all human interaction involves politics. We Internauts designing and implementing standards are also involved in politics, but are very bad at it. On 3/31/21 12:17 AM, Dave Taht wrote: I note I really like the internet history mailing list. -- Forwarded message - From: Dave Täht Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:50 PM Subject: geeks, internet To: - Forwarded message from the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history - Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000 From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history To: Internet-history Subject: Re: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet -- Forwarded message - From: Karl Auerbach Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9 That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet. Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as the trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year money pump of monopoly-rent profit.) Over the years I've spent a fair amount of time among both "geeks" and "policymakers". There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps. However there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social forces. The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL email account. The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is essential. But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the blind men who each perceive the creature as only the small piece that they can touch and do not comprehend the total. Those who are experts in one field are often somewhat blind in other fields. This is why we need governance by entities that strive for a synoptic view, that operate on the basis of respect for all concerns and listen (and consider) all voices. The organs of decision of such entities ought to be filled with intelligent, open-minded generalists. Those generalists may not comprehend the entire elephant, but they will know that whatever it is, it is more than merely a tail or trunk or tree-like legs. (This is part of the foundation of my argument that STEM education needs to be balanced by a strong dose of liberal arts - we need to tune our educations machinery to create those smart generalists.) For many decades the Internet had an air gap from society. That gap no longer exists. The Internet is now a fundamental critical infrastructure. It is also being comprehended as a marvelous tool for control, data gathering, public-opinion shaping, profit making, and a force in national an international politics. Take the 5G push for example. At its edges it is starting to give off a scent of attempting to be the new ISO/OSI. There's some good stuff in 5G, as there was in ISO/OSI. But the decisions about deployment of 5G, it's frequency bands, its use in vehicle-to-X communications, etc go well beyond the merely technical. If we let "the geeks" run the farm we can expect a lot of new Facebooks and Zuckerbergs - lots of technology without comprehension of, nor care for, the social impact. Do we really want to resurrect a world run by trade guilds? Is one going to be required to go through an new kind of apprenticeship in order to have a say, a say that must be heard even if not accepted, in how we pull and turn the levers and knobs of our networks, health systems, power grids, food distribution systems, etc etc? Democracy, whether direct or representative, is our imperfect answer. That path is hard, slow, inefficient, and frustrating. But it is necessary. We have to take care to learn from the past. We ought to take a lesson from things like ICANN, where the voice of the public interest is muted under thick layers of complicated procedures, costs of effective participation, and competition from well-funded industrial interests. --karl-- On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 1:09 AM *the keyboard of geoff goodfellow > wrote:* *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from collapsing entirely. And yet the engineer-led nonprofit organizations that oversee the stable functioning of the global Internet are again under attack.* EXCERPT: The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly transformed the internet into the most critical infrastructure on Earth. By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under lockdown,
[Cerowrt-devel] Fwd: geeks, internet
I note I really like the internet history mailing list. -- Forwarded message - From: Dave Täht Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:50 PM Subject: geeks, internet To: - Forwarded message from the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history - Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000 From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history To: Internet-history Subject: Re: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet -- Forwarded message - From: Karl Auerbach Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9 That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet. Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as the trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year money pump of monopoly-rent profit.) Over the years I've spent a fair amount of time among both "geeks" and "policymakers". There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps. However there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social forces. The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL email account. The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is essential. But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the blind men who each perceive the creature as only the small piece that they can touch and do not comprehend the total. Those who are experts in one field are often somewhat blind in other fields. This is why we need governance by entities that strive for a synoptic view, that operate on the basis of respect for all concerns and listen (and consider) all voices. The organs of decision of such entities ought to be filled with intelligent, open-minded generalists. Those generalists may not comprehend the entire elephant, but they will know that whatever it is, it is more than merely a tail or trunk or tree-like legs. (This is part of the foundation of my argument that STEM education needs to be balanced by a strong dose of liberal arts - we need to tune our educations machinery to create those smart generalists.) For many decades the Internet had an air gap from society. That gap no longer exists. The Internet is now a fundamental critical infrastructure. It is also being comprehended as a marvelous tool for control, data gathering, public-opinion shaping, profit making, and a force in national an international politics. Take the 5G push for example. At its edges it is starting to give off a scent of attempting to be the new ISO/OSI. There's some good stuff in 5G, as there was in ISO/OSI. But the decisions about deployment of 5G, it's frequency bands, its use in vehicle-to-X communications, etc go well beyond the merely technical. If we let "the geeks" run the farm we can expect a lot of new Facebooks and Zuckerbergs - lots of technology without comprehension of, nor care for, the social impact. Do we really want to resurrect a world run by trade guilds? Is one going to be required to go through an new kind of apprenticeship in order to have a say, a say that must be heard even if not accepted, in how we pull and turn the levers and knobs of our networks, health systems, power grids, food distribution systems, etc etc? Democracy, whether direct or representative, is our imperfect answer. That path is hard, slow, inefficient, and frustrating. But it is necessary. We have to take care to learn from the past. We ought to take a lesson from things like ICANN, where the voice of the public interest is muted under thick layers of complicated procedures, costs of effective participation, and competition from well-funded industrial interests. --karl-- On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 1:09 AM *the keyboard of geoff goodfellow > wrote:* > *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under > lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from > collapsing entirely. And yet the engineer-led nonprofit organizations that > oversee the stable functioning of the global Internet are again under > attack.* > EXCERPT: > > The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly transformed the internet into the > most critical infrastructure on Earth. > > By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under > lockdown, the internet has helped to prevent the global economy from > collapsing entirely. Indeed, with fear and social distancing continuing to > separate many of us, it has become the connective tissue for much human > interaction and economic activity around the world. > > But few appreciate how this critical global resource has remained stable > and resilient since its inception, even as its scope and scale have > undergone uninterrupted explosive growth. In an age of widening political, > economic,
