Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market
> At 07:50 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: >> > It all depends on the types of things you ask someone >> > to >> > write out >> > manually. Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or >> > CFOUTPUT is simply >> > inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise. >> >>Whereas it's okay for someone not to be intimately >>familiar with the >>attributes of a or tag if they've never >>worked in an >>environment where they're heavily used. > There is a reason why CFGRID isn't supported in Blue > Dragon. It's commonly > considered to be one of if not THE least used CF Tag. Which explains why the early CFML tests used by recruiters were chock full of questions about it. :P s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477&DE=1 [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market
> At 07:50 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: >> > It all depends on the types of things you ask someone >> > to >> > write out >> > manually. Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or >> > CFOUTPUT is simply >> > inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise. >> >>Whereas it's okay for someone not to be intimately >>familiar with the >>attributes of a or tag if they've never >>worked in an >>environment where they're heavily used. > There is a reason why CFGRID isn't supported in Blue > Dragon. It's commonly > considered to be one of if not THE least used CF Tag. Incidentally, I'd be willing to bet CFTABLE has had less usage. s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477&DE=1 [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market
or how about ? :) At 02:33 PM 8/10/2004, you wrote: >I suppose you've never heard of CFSLIDER then? > >- Original Message - >From: Glenn Saunders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:18:40 -0700 >Subject: Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market >To: CF-Jobs-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >At 07:50 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: > > > It all depends on the types of things you ask someone to > > > write out > > > manually. Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or > > > CFOUTPUT is simply > > > inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise. > > > >Whereas it's okay for someone not to be intimately familiar with the > >attributes of a or tag if they've never worked in an > >environment where they're heavily used. > >There is a reason why CFGRID isn't supported in Blue Dragon. It's commonly >considered to be one of if not THE least used CF >Tag. > >-- >[Todays Threads] >[This Message] >[Subscription] >[Fast >Unsubscribe] [User Settings] >[Donations >and Support] > >-- > >156858c.jpg > = Ray Champagne - Senior Application Developer CrystalVision Web Site Design and Internet Services 603.433.9559 www.crystalvision.org = The information contained in this transmission (including any attached files) is CONFIDENTIAL and is intended only for the person(s) named above. If you received this transmission in error, please delete it from your system and notify us immediately. If you are not an intended recipient, please note that any use or dissemination of the information contained in this transmission (including any attached files) and the copying, printing, or retransmission of that information is strictly prohibited. You can notify us by return email or by phone at 603.433.9559. Thank you. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market
I suppose you've never heard of CFSLIDER then? - Original Message - From: Glenn Saunders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:18:40 -0700 Subject: Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market To: CF-Jobs-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:50 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: > > It all depends on the types of things you ask someone to > > write out > > manually. Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or > > CFOUTPUT is simply > > inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise. > >Whereas it's okay for someone not to be intimately familiar with the >attributes of a or tag if they've never worked in an >environment where they're heavily used. There is a reason why CFGRID isn't supported in Blue Dragon. It's commonly considered to be one of if not THE least used CF Tag. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
RE: The job market
I agree with Glenn to an extent. I've worked with many CF developers that have been on opposite ends of the experience spectrum. I've known decent developers that spent a fair amount of time looking stuff up in the docs. I've known other developers that could write 95% of their code without ever looking up a single tag attribute. In the end, I preferred the guy that was adept and knowledgeable enough to not have to "look stuff up." The other developer was good as well. If I were in a hiring situation things Glenn mentioned like being able to write code on a whiteboard would _surely_ be important to me. I'm not interested in how much information someone can spout off to me in a conversation, I'm more impressed by those that can demonstrate fundamentals on a whiteboard or in notepad. Things like wearing a T-Shirt and jeans in an interview or spelling mistakes on a resume (to me) are indicators of someone that might not be suitable for a mid to senior level programming job. I know a guy who was communicating in a resume how he was _not_ uneducated. While I would prefer someone to communicate the opposite, the problem was he misspelled the word "uneducated." There's no excuse for that. Additionally, with todays merging technologies (in terms of Web development) a versatile developer is sometimes preferred over a one trick pony. It depends on the job, of course. My main focus for 3 years was ColdFusion. I served in a senior level position mentoring several other CF developers. After leaving that company, I've spent the last year and half doing both ColdFusion and Flash ActionScript development. The company I'm consulting with finds it an amazing skillset as I can write code for different end results. And sometimes, ColdFusion and Flash are joined to create a hybrid application or Web site. You could say, that "everything depends." Things like skillsets, experience, personality, DB related skills, communcation skills; the right group is different depending on the job, the company, the industry, etc. The only constant is to try and be the best you can be. But, isn't that what we _should_ be doing in most everything in life anyway? | Aaron West | aaron AT trajiklyhip.com | http://www.trajiklyhip.com | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | Certified Macromedia Flash MX Developer [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
RE: The job market
As long as you understand you are going to be missing out on good people I suppose you can use ANY arbitrary variable to filter the group of developers you want. Personally, I think you test for what you think the person will need to do on the job. If the person needs to have that skill of memorizing syntax, then by all means test for that. If, on the other hand, the developer will never need that, why make it such an important segment of the filtering process? From: Geoffrey N Epstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 8/10/04 10:23 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: The job market I agree. Any test has to be absolutely relevant to the development. Also, with a bit of care, you could sit them down in the actual development environment, including Homesite, Dreamweaver or ColdFusion Studio and get them to do some stuff - no multiple choice ever! It's much like open book exams in school which look for real understanding of the material as opposed to rote memory. With regard to the white board stuff, I can deal with that, but a portion of folks freeze in an oral exam which are not all that commonly encountered in our educational systems anyway. Ph.D. candidates have to deal with an oral exam and give talks etc. but most folks sit at a desk and write out answers to questions. People code sitting at a machine with no-one looking over their shoulder, so an effective test would replicate that real work situation. It's a bit gentler than the oral approach and allows folks a bit of time to think and get the logic right etc. Anyway, the whole issue of interviewing could be discussed for a long time! -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:04 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: The job market While it wouldn't apply to what most of us do... One of my clients has a list of questions that they use when interviewing new help desk staff members. One of them is "describe how to tie your shoe." They have to do this w/o using their hands, since hand movements don't translate well over the phone. I think that is a great way to weed out the people who may not be good for answering the help desk. I was on one interview where myself and the interviewer sat down at the computer. He gave me a list of tasks to do and watched me do them. As long as the written test you mention is 'relevant' to your development (as opposed to a multiple choice type of thing) I think that is a great way to test applicants. I also don't see how a written or 'practical' test is much different than the "white board" test discussed earlier in this thread. I just wouldn't expect syntax to hold a high importance, although I'd probably notice if it was really off. At 09:32 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: >It is hard to believe that the following is true: > >"You know, there is a LOT to memorize at our place. We have a big network >and everything is very poorly documented. Knowledge transfer is almost all >verbal. We have to memorize which database and which db server our systems >use for one thing. We have to memorize a lot of IP addresses. We have to >memorize commonly used custom tags so we don't reinvent the wheel. We have >to memorize usernames and passwords. Someone who has such a difficult time >memorizing the core tags of their language to me is a big fat RED FLAG." > >This should be at hand on the local intranet, or in a notebook. No-one >should be memorizing this stuff. > >In my experience, the best way to tell whether someone can write code that >is reasonable, including getting the logic right which is where a lot of >folks fall down, is to give them a straight forward written test as part of >the interview. It is remarkably useful in determining whether people can >actually write code and you can be forgiving on getting all of the >attributes right etc. You can also give them simple logic problems. Such a >written test would follow an interview in which you cover general conceptual >stuff etc. > >-- >[Todays Threads] >[This Message] >[Subscription] >[Fast >Unsubscribe] [User Settings] >[ usiness=donations%40houseoffusion.com&undefined_quantity=&cmd=_xclick>Donati ons >and Support] > >-- > >8dc863.jpg > -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer -- AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Books: Recording Music: Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
RE: The job market
H, although I agree about making the effort, spare a thought for us with designer stubble, I have sensitive skin! :OD Ade -Original Message- From: Doug White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 August 2004 05:18 To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: The job market Those that appeared at an interview unshaven, unkempt hair, and sloppily dressed, did not get very many points with us. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
RE: The job market
How many people were hoping for a mistake in this?!? :OP Just messin' with you Glen :OD Ade -Original Message- From: Glenn Saunders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 August 2004 04:56 To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: The job market Having to memorize something like: dbtype="odbc"> select top 10 a, b, c from a is not going to kill you! [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market
At 07:50 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: > > It all depends on the types of things you ask someone to > > write out > > manually. Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or > > CFOUTPUT is simply > > inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise. > >Whereas it's okay for someone not to be intimately familiar with the >attributes of a or tag if they've never worked in an >environment where they're heavily used. There is a reason why CFGRID isn't supported in Blue Dragon. It's commonly considered to be one of if not THE least used CF Tag. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
OT: IDE was Re: The job market
> You may never have to develop WITHOUT Cold Fusion Studio > by your side. But I still expect you to be able to show > me you can work without a net. Funny thing is, during the days of CF3 I wasn't very happy with the IDE's available at the time. I used to use a shareware (registered for $30) HTML editor that didn't even have syntax highlighting called Anansi because it was the only one I found that had what I felt to be easily manageable "projects" and decent ftp controls. Though for a short while I did a lot of ColdFusion work in notepad. s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477&DE=1 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569&DE=1 http://www.fusiontap.com [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market
> It all depends on the types of things you ask someone to > write out > manually. Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or > CFOUTPUT is simply > inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise. Whereas it's okay for someone not to be intimately familiar with the attributes of a or tag if they've never worked in an environment where they're heavily used. Makes sense to me. s. isaac dealey 954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477&DE=1 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569&DE=1 http://www.fusiontap.com [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
RE: The job market
I agree. Any test has to be absolutely relevant to the development. Also, with a bit of care, you could sit them down in the actual development environment, including Homesite, Dreamweaver or ColdFusion Studio and get them to do some stuff - no multiple choice ever! It's much like open book exams in school which look for real understanding of the material as opposed to rote memory. With regard to the white board stuff, I can deal with that, but a portion of folks freeze in an oral exam which are not all that commonly encountered in our educational systems anyway. Ph.D. candidates have to deal with an oral exam and give talks etc. but most folks sit at a desk and write out answers to questions. People code sitting at a machine with no-one looking over their shoulder, so an effective test would replicate that real work situation. It's a bit gentler than the oral approach and allows folks a bit of time to think and get the logic right etc. Anyway, the whole issue of interviewing could be discussed for a long time! -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:04 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: The job market While it wouldn't apply to what most of us do... One of my clients has a list of questions that they use when interviewing new help desk staff members. One of them is "describe how to tie your shoe." They have to do this w/o using their hands, since hand movements don't translate well over the phone. I think that is a great way to weed out the people who may not be good for answering the help desk. I was on one interview where myself and the interviewer sat down at the computer. He gave me a list of tasks to do and watched me do them. As long as the written test you mention is 'relevant' to your development (as opposed to a multiple choice type of thing) I think that is a great way to test applicants. I also don't see how a written or 'practical' test is much different than the "white board" test discussed earlier in this thread. I just wouldn't expect syntax to hold a high importance, although I'd probably notice if it was really off. At 09:32 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: >It is hard to believe that the following is true: > >"You know, there is a LOT to memorize at our place. We have a big network >and everything is very poorly documented. Knowledge transfer is almost all >verbal. We have to memorize which database and which db server our systems >use for one thing. We have to memorize a lot of IP addresses. We have to >memorize commonly used custom tags so we don't reinvent the wheel. We have >to memorize usernames and passwords. Someone who has such a difficult time >memorizing the core tags of their language to me is a big fat RED FLAG." > >This should be at hand on the local intranet, or in a notebook. No-one >should be memorizing this stuff. > >In my experience, the best way to tell whether someone can write code that >is reasonable, including getting the logic right which is where a lot of >folks fall down, is to give them a straight forward written test as part of >the interview. It is remarkably useful in determining whether people can >actually write code and you can be forgiving on getting all of the >attributes right etc. You can also give them simple logic problems. Such a >written test would follow an interview in which you cover general conceptual >stuff etc. > >-- >[Todays Threads] >[This Message] >[Subscription] >[Fast >Unsubscribe] [User Settings] >[ usiness=donations%40houseoffusion.com&undefined_quantity=&cmd=_xclick>Donati ons >and Support] > >-- > >8dc863.jpg > -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer -- AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Books: Recording Music: Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
RE: The job market
Let's put things in perspective here a little bit.we're talking about building Web applications, not embedded systems development for realtime medical devices. I consider myself to be a VERY good developer and project leader, but if I had a choice between intensively studying Cold Fusion or say, J2EE, the Java stuff is going to win out time after time. Having worked in a few jobs now where there are a mixed bag of production web applications in CFML, ASP, PHP, Perl, JSP/Servlets, and PL-SQL (.Web Toolkit . this is sound of me strangling myself ;-), I don't feel the least bit inadequate for having to pull out a quick reference or Nutshell book when I need a reminder. You should be able to talk about CFOUTPUT and CFQUERY though, as well as the intrinsic variables and common data structures (lists, arrays, structs). Having a clue when it comes to style and naming conventions would be really nice too. Yeah, we could argue all day about the "right" questions to ask during an interview, but a line can and should certainly be drawn somewhere. Hey, maybe that's what certifications are for.hmmm. DTS -Original Message- From: Glenn Saunders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 11:56 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: The job market At 05:19 AM 8/9/2004, you wrote: >I will have to disagree on this one. It is not essential to be able to >rattle off a bunch of attributes for every tag (even the most common It is essential to me. I may have said it already, but you know a lot of people throw out resumes that have typos or are particularly sloppy as a matter of policy. No, not all jobs require good grammar. But it's a signal to the screener that the person doesn't give a crap. Same with dress-code. Some guy coming in to an interview looking like a bum is telegraphing that he doesn't give a crap. After he gets hired he can dress down. But there is an etiquette in the interviewing process involved in making the best first impression. Not being able to rattle off the common tags from memory to me indicates that the guy is either incompetent or he doesn't give enough of a crap to come prepared. You may never have to develop WITHOUT Cold Fusion Studio by your side. But I still expect you to be able to show me you can work without a net. >ones). Having a good memory would allow someone who is not a good cf >programmer to do what you ask but not neccissarily be able to build a >good application framework. And it's not easy to tell the difference between someone who couldn't write CFML to save his life and an otherwise "good developer" as you say who is completely dependent on CF Studio. We don't have all day to separate the two. I'd rather take the easy way out and reject both types in favor of those who CAN write out a few basic tags on the whiteboard. A lot of good CF developers CAN write tags on a whiteboard, you know. Memorization like this simply shouldn't be that rare. If that means we miss out on some otherwise good developers by being so picky, so be it. They belong somewhere else. You know, there is a LOT to memorize at our place. We have a big network and everything is very poorly documented. Knowledge transfer is almost all verbal. We have to memorize which database and which db server our systems use for one thing. We have to memorize a lot of IP addresses. We have to memorize commonly used custom tags so we don't reinvent the wheel. We have to memorize usernames and passwords. Someone who has such a difficult time memorizing the core tags of their language to me is a big fat RED FLAG. >Making a mistake in writing a tag and it's attributes out on a >blackboard is not an uncommon nor unexpected occurance IMHO. I have been >in a college class and on more than one occasion had a professor write >out equations incorrectly. I doubt this means he was not proficient in >the course he was teaching. It's not the interviewer's job to give candidates the benefit of the doubt. They have their big chance to make an impact and they should come prepared. I dunno about this thread. I'm hearing so much defensiveness about memorization that I'm wondering how much of it is because you guys feel a little inadequate with your immediate command of the language. Having to memorize something like: cachedwithin="#createtimespan(1,0,0,0)#" dbtype="odbc"> select top 10 a, b, c from a is not going to kill you! Having to memorize the equivalent series of statements in ASP is considerably more of a pain! _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
RE: The job market
While it wouldn't apply to what most of us do... One of my clients has a list of questions that they use when interviewing new help desk staff members. One of them is "describe how to tie your shoe." They have to do this w/o using their hands, since hand movements don't translate well over the phone. I think that is a great way to weed out the people who may not be good for answering the help desk. I was on one interview where myself and the interviewer sat down at the computer. He gave me a list of tasks to do and watched me do them. As long as the written test you mention is 'relevant' to your development (as opposed to a multiple choice type of thing) I think that is a great way to test applicants. I also don't see how a written or 'practical' test is much different than the "white board" test discussed earlier in this thread. I just wouldn't expect syntax to hold a high importance, although I'd probably notice if it was really off. At 09:32 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: >It is hard to believe that the following is true: > >"You know, there is a LOT to memorize at our place. We have a big network >and everything is very poorly documented. Knowledge transfer is almost all >verbal. We have to memorize which database and which db server our systems >use for one thing. We have to memorize a lot of IP addresses. We have to >memorize commonly used custom tags so we don't reinvent the wheel. We have >to memorize usernames and passwords. Someone who has such a difficult time >memorizing the core tags of their language to me is a big fat RED FLAG." > >This should be at hand on the local intranet, or in a notebook. No-one >should be memorizing this stuff. > >In my experience, the best way to tell whether someone can write code that >is reasonable, including getting the logic right which is where a lot of >folks fall down, is to give them a straight forward written test as part of >the interview. It is remarkably useful in determining whether people can >actually write code and you can be forgiving on getting all of the >attributes right etc. You can also give them simple logic problems. Such a >written test would follow an interview in which you cover general conceptual >stuff etc. > >-- >[Todays Threads] >[This Message] >[Subscription] >[Fast >Unsubscribe] [User Settings] >[Donations >and Support] > >-- > >8dc863.jpg > -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer -- AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Books: Recording Music: Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
RE: The job market
It is hard to believe that the following is true: "You know, there is a LOT to memorize at our place. We have a big network and everything is very poorly documented. Knowledge transfer is almost all verbal. We have to memorize which database and which db server our systems use for one thing. We have to memorize a lot of IP addresses. We have to memorize commonly used custom tags so we don't reinvent the wheel. We have to memorize usernames and passwords. Someone who has such a difficult time memorizing the core tags of their language to me is a big fat RED FLAG." This should be at hand on the local intranet, or in a notebook. No-one should be memorizing this stuff. In my experience, the best way to tell whether someone can write code that is reasonable, including getting the logic right which is where a lot of folks fall down, is to give them a straight forward written test as part of the interview. It is remarkably useful in determining whether people can actually write code and you can be forgiving on getting all of the attributes right etc. You can also give them simple logic problems. Such a written test would follow an interview in which you cover general conceptual stuff etc. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
