Re: Indian code

[Glenn Saunders]

At 10:55 AM 1/28/2005, you wrote:
>Well, from my experience
>fixing other people's code is frustating, most of the time :)
>Bad variable name, bad technique, not to mention the indentation or
>comment, duh!

Unfortunately, as long as the application works, that's all that really 
matters to management.



~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2263
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Cameron Childress]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:30:03 -0500, Michael Dinowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The response? A request to tutor the outsource programmer to bring them up to 
> par.

I see this as a classic case of "you get what you pay for".  If you
want to be able to pay wages that are equivilant to a first month
programmer, you are going to have to be willing to accept sub-par
code.

Once this programmer has skill and experience the pay rate will almost
certainly go up.  Then the company will say "Wow, that guy's
overpriced now", and switch to a cheaper, lesser skilled developer who
writes code like a first month programmer.

In the end they will wonder why the program doesn't work right.

-Cameron

-- 
Cameron Childress
Sumo Consulting Inc
http://www.sumoc.com
---
cell:  678.637.5072
aim:   cameroncf
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

~|
Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support 
efficiency by 100%
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2262
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Larry C. Lyons]

That's only half of the problem. But I think you do understand the
level of garbage that was involved. By moving the site to MX and using
a lot of CFC's we ended up reducing the code by about 3/4's or more.

larry


On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:26:01 -0500, Jerry Johnson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If that is your idea of bad code (not separating presentation from logic) you 
> have been blessed, my friend.
> 
> I inherited a perl program that was 72,000 lines long. It is now 2200 lines 
> and still way too big.
> 
> Jerry Johnson
> Web Developer
> Dolan Media Company
> 
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/28/05 03:33PM >>>
> I did find a couple of wugga-wuggas though.
> 
> I'm just biased I guess, I like clean code with presentation separate
> from logic and data access. But that just be me.
> 
> 
> 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2261
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Jerry Johnson]

If that is your idea of bad code (not separating presentation from logic) you 
have been blessed, my friend.

I inherited a perl program that was 72,000 lines long. It is now 2200 lines and 
still way too big.



Jerry Johnson
Web Developer
Dolan Media Company

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/28/05 03:33PM >>>
I did find a couple of wugga-wuggas though.

I'm just biased I guess, I like clean code with presentation separate
from logic and data access. But that just be me.



~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2260
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Jeffry Houser]

  Aaron has done some subcontracting work for DotComIt (me), so just for 
the record, he can hold his own.

At 04:25 PM 1/28/2005, you wrote:
>  Not that I am a self proclaimed CF guru


--
Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer
AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773
--
My Books: 
My Recording Studio: 
My Energetic Acoustic Rock Band: 
--
When did Reality Become TV 



~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2259
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Aaron Rouse]

Yes a medical issue is not something that you can see coming. However
a lot of this code is seriously flawed and has nothing to do with that
but I am guessing more to do with someone learning the language on the
fly. Not that I am a self proclaimed CF guru or anything, but man when
I see code like this it makes me feel like a CF Gawd ;)


On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:42:49 -0500, Wallach, Levi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This seems to be one of those eternal mistakes that companies make - being a 
> penny wise and a pound foolish.  Of course they probably had no clue that 
> this guy was going to have to leave.  A medical issue is not something you 
> can usually tell from an interview!  But I've heard countless stories about 
> how companies have opted for dirt-cheap vendors for creating a site or 
> application because there are simply those out there that will low-ball 
> everyone else in order to get business (and this has nothing to do with 
> off-shoring).  What many companies fail to see is that you usually get what 
> you pay for in frustration, time and money wasted.  You're just taking more 
> of a risk going with a company that doesn't have the amount of proven 
> experience but charges a lot less.  I suppose some companies are aware of 
> this risk and take it anyway.  Of course there are those that overcharge as 
> well.  Companies that aren't tech-savvy to begin with, I think can also find 
> it very difficult to discern whether a potential vender is high-quality...
> 
> Levi Wallach
> 
> Blog: twelveblackcodemonkeys.com
> DVD Review Site: dvdmon.com
> Pictures at: http://wallachexpressions.smugmug.com/Photos%20by%20Levi
> 
> From: Aaron Rouse
> Sent: Fri 1/28/05 2:23 PM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: Re: Indian code
> 
> Interesting subject, because of something that happened just recently
> here.  Not really outsourcing though, about 8 months ago I applied for
> a full time job out here where I have been doing contract work for the
> past 4 years.  After all the interviews I was made an offer, a
> ridiculously low offer for the jobs description.  I nicely tried to
> explain it was too low and even tried to compromise on just a slightly
> higher pay so that I could afford to take the job but they would not
> budge.  Now fast foward to this week, I have since taking on a
> different job in the same company and still here as a lowly
> contractor.  The group I am in gets a call from the office I applied
> to.  Turns out the developer they hired had spent all this time
> working on converting some Access/VB applications to Oracle/CF and had
> to leave for a bit, due to medical reasons.  Well none of these
> projects were working right and now they are paying this group I am in
> to fix what they had built.
> 
> I find it funny, had they been willing to spend a little bit more
> money on the position they could have gotten the very person who they
> are now paying contract rates to fix this stuff.
> 
> 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2258
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Larry C. Lyons]

I did find a couple of wugga-wuggas though.

I'm just biased I guess, I like clean code with presentation separate
from logic and data access. But that just be me.

larry


On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:30:20 -0700, Nathan Strutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You should feel free that the entire site doesn't axis on a variable
> called "Moo", or ask if "ZingoBangoBingoBongo" is defined.
> 
> I know all about it...
> 
> -nathan strutz
> http://www.dopefly.com/
> 
> 
> Larry C. Lyons wrote:
> > I'd give you some samples but the powers that be probably think that
> > its proprietary information. There's cf queries in the middle of
> > tables, etc. On  one page there are 6 or 7 database queries that are
> > exactly the same. Nothing is scoped, and variables are set anywhere.
> > Presentation, business logic and data access are completely jumbled
> > together. Its really a good example of a bad example. If there was an
> > award for what not to do in developing a site using CF this one would
> > get the life time achievement award, and they'd retire the cup after.
> >
> > larry
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:06:28 -0500, Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>  I think you probably misjudge the incompetence of many.  :-)
> >>
> >>At 02:37 PM 1/28/2005, you wrote:
> >>
> >>>That's been the main part of my current project for the last 5 months.
> >>>All I can figure is that the person who originally coded this site
> >>>wanted job security.
> >>>
> >>>larry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:24:43 -0600, Aaron Rouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
> Sadly, it is one of mine too, not one I always enjoy doing.
> 
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:18:22 -0400, Michael Dinowitz
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >It's one of my specialties. :)
> >
> >
> >>Well, from my experience
> >>fixing other people's code is frustating, most of the time :)
> >>Bad variable name, bad technique, not to mention the indentation or
> >>comment, duh!
> >
> 
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2257
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Nathan Strutz]

You should feel free that the entire site doesn't axis on a variable 
called "Moo", or ask if "ZingoBangoBingoBongo" is defined.

I know all about it...

-nathan strutz
http://www.dopefly.com/


Larry C. Lyons wrote:
> I'd give you some samples but the powers that be probably think that
> its proprietary information. There's cf queries in the middle of
> tables, etc. On  one page there are 6 or 7 database queries that are
> exactly the same. Nothing is scoped, and variables are set anywhere.
> Presentation, business logic and data access are completely jumbled
> together. Its really a good example of a bad example. If there was an
> award for what not to do in developing a site using CF this one would
> get the life time achievement award, and they'd retire the cup after.
> 
> larry
> 
> 
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:06:28 -0500, Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>  I think you probably misjudge the incompetence of many.  :-)
>>
>>At 02:37 PM 1/28/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>>That's been the main part of my current project for the last 5 months.
>>>All I can figure is that the person who originally coded this site
>>>wanted job security.
>>>
>>>larry
>>>
>>>
>>>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:24:43 -0600, Aaron Rouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
Sadly, it is one of mine too, not one I always enjoy doing.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:18:22 -0400, Michael Dinowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>It's one of my specialties. :)
>
>
>>Well, from my experience
>>fixing other people's code is frustating, most of the time :)
>>Bad variable name, bad technique, not to mention the indentation or
>>comment, duh!
>

>>>
>>
> 
> 

~|
Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support 
efficiency by 100%
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2256
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Larry C. Lyons]

I'd give you some samples but the powers that be probably think that
its proprietary information. There's cf queries in the middle of
tables, etc. On  one page there are 6 or 7 database queries that are
exactly the same. Nothing is scoped, and variables are set anywhere.
Presentation, business logic and data access are completely jumbled
together. Its really a good example of a bad example. If there was an
award for what not to do in developing a site using CF this one would
get the life time achievement award, and they'd retire the cup after.

larry


On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:06:28 -0500, Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   I think you probably misjudge the incompetence of many.  :-)
> 
> At 02:37 PM 1/28/2005, you wrote:
> >That's been the main part of my current project for the last 5 months.
> >All I can figure is that the person who originally coded this site
> >wanted job security.
> >
> >larry
> >
> >
> >On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:24:43 -0600, Aaron Rouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Sadly, it is one of mine too, not one I always enjoy doing.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:18:22 -0400, Michael Dinowitz
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > It's one of my specialties. :)
> > > >
> > > > >Well, from my experience
> > > > >fixing other people's code is frustating, most of the time :)
> > > > >Bad variable name, bad technique, not to mention the indentation or
> > > > >comment, duh!
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 

~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2255
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Jeffry Houser]

  I think you probably misjudge the incompetence of many.  :-)

At 02:37 PM 1/28/2005, you wrote:
>That's been the main part of my current project for the last 5 months.
>All I can figure is that the person who originally coded this site
>wanted job security.
>
>larry
>
>
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:24:43 -0600, Aaron Rouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Sadly, it is one of mine too, not one I always enjoy doing.
> >
> > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:18:22 -0400, Michael Dinowitz
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > It's one of my specialties. :)
> > >
> > > >Well, from my experience
> > > >fixing other people's code is frustating, most of the time :)
> > > >Bad variable name, bad technique, not to mention the indentation or
> > > >comment, duh!
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2254
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

RE: Indian code

[Wallach, Levi]

This seems to be one of those eternal mistakes that companies make - being a 
penny wise and a pound foolish.  Of course they probably had no clue that this 
guy was going to have to leave.  A medical issue is not something you can 
usually tell from an interview!  But I've heard countless stories about how 
companies have opted for dirt-cheap vendors for creating a site or application 
because there are simply those out there that will low-ball everyone else in 
order to get business (and this has nothing to do with off-shoring).  What many 
companies fail to see is that you usually get what you pay for in frustration, 
time and money wasted.  You're just taking more of a risk going with a company 
that doesn't have the amount of proven experience but charges a lot less.  I 
suppose some companies are aware of this risk and take it anyway.  Of course 
there are those that overcharge as well.  Companies that aren't tech-savvy to 
begin with, I think can also find it very difficult to discern whether a 
potential vender is high-quality...

Levi Wallach 

Blog: twelveblackcodemonkeys.com
DVD Review Site: dvdmon.com
Pictures at: http://wallachexpressions.smugmug.com/Photos%20by%20Levi



From: Aaron Rouse
Sent: Fri 1/28/05 2:23 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Indian code


Interesting subject, because of something that happened just recently
here.  Not really outsourcing though, about 8 months ago I applied for
a full time job out here where I have been doing contract work for the
past 4 years.  After all the interviews I was made an offer, a
ridiculously low offer for the jobs description.  I nicely tried to
explain it was too low and even tried to compromise on just a slightly
higher pay so that I could afford to take the job but they would not
budge.  Now fast foward to this week, I have since taking on a
different job in the same company and still here as a lowly
contractor.  The group I am in gets a call from the office I applied
to.  Turns out the developer they hired had spent all this time
working on converting some Access/VB applications to Oracle/CF and had
to leave for a bit, due to medical reasons.  Well none of these
projects were working right and now they are paying this group I am in
to fix what they had built.

I find it funny, had they been willing to spend a little bit more
money on the position they could have gotten the very person who they
are now paying contract rates to fix this stuff.


~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2253
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Larry C. Lyons]

That's been the main part of my current project for the last 5 months.
All I can figure is that the person who originally coded this site
wanted job security.

larry


On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:24:43 -0600, Aaron Rouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sadly, it is one of mine too, not one I always enjoy doing.
> 
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:18:22 -0400, Michael Dinowitz
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It's one of my specialties. :)
> >
> > >Well, from my experience
> > >fixing other people's code is frustating, most of the time :)
> > >Bad variable name, bad technique, not to mention the indentation or
> > >comment, duh!
> >
> 
> 

~|
Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support 
efficiency by 100%
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2252
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Aaron Rouse]

Sadly, it is one of mine too, not one I always enjoy doing.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:18:22 -0400, Michael Dinowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's one of my specialties. :)
> 
> >Well, from my experience
> >fixing other people's code is frustating, most of the time :)
> >Bad variable name, bad technique, not to mention the indentation or
> >comment, duh!
>

~|
Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support 
efficiency by 100%
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2251
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Aaron Rouse]

Interesting subject, because of something that happened just recently
here.  Not really outsourcing though, about 8 months ago I applied for
a full time job out here where I have been doing contract work for the
past 4 years.  After all the interviews I was made an offer, a
ridiculously low offer for the jobs description.  I nicely tried to
explain it was too low and even tried to compromise on just a slightly
higher pay so that I could afford to take the job but they would not
budge.  Now fast foward to this week, I have since taking on a
different job in the same company and still here as a lowly
contractor.  The group I am in gets a call from the office I applied
to.  Turns out the developer they hired had spent all this time
working on converting some Access/VB applications to Oracle/CF and had
to leave for a bit, due to medical reasons.  Well none of these
projects were working right and now they are paying this group I am in
to fix what they had built.

I find it funny, had they been willing to spend a little bit more
money on the position they could have gotten the very person who they
are now paying contract rates to fix this stuff.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:55:47 +0700, Rizal Firmansyah
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Instead it's how the client choose their programmers.
> And somehow i think we're responsible for guiding them to choose the best
> one, eh?
> 
> Between programmers, we can tell which one is good and one who isn't.
> But how can we really tell the client that we'll do the job better?
> Do clients have to try the bad one first, and then send it back to us to
> fix it?
> Or how can we compete the low-price service offered by many offshore-er out
> there?
>

~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2250
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Michael Dinowitz]

If I had a business manager, then maybe. As is, I charge the same as my 
standard rate. I should be charging more, but

> Not to mention the fact that you make twice as much training as
> coding. Right Mike.
> ;)
> larry
> 
> 
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:09:23 -0400, Michael Dinowitz
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Positive of course. A job is a job, a CF programmer is a CF 
> programmer and the advancement of CF is the advancement of CF.
> > 
> > >What was your response to his request?
> > 
> > 

~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2249
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Michael Dinowitz]

It's one of my specialties. :)

>Well, from my experience
>fixing other people's code is frustating, most of the time :)
>Bad variable name, bad technique, not to mention the indentation or 
>comment, duh!

~|
Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support 
efficiency by 100%
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2248
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Larry C. Lyons]

Not to mention the fact that you make twice as much training as
coding. Right Mike.
;)
larry


On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:09:23 -0400, Michael Dinowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Positive of course. A job is a job, a CF programmer is a CF programmer and 
> the advancement of CF is the advancement of CF.
> 
> >What was your response to his request?
> 
> 

~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2247
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Michael Dinowitz]

Positive of course. A job is a job, a CF programmer is a CF programmer and the 
advancement of CF is the advancement of CF.

>What was your response to his request? 

~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2246
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Michael Dinowitz]

Actually, I am a trainer and I've trained my competition all the time. As for 
my response on outsourced code, you can hear it here:
http://houseoffusion.com/articles/raw/
These are my raw, pre-article thoughts and if you like them, please transcribe 
one for me. :)

>I hope you told him that you're not a trainer.  Ugh.  Why don't you
>train your competition so that we need you even less!  Does this make
>any sense??

~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2245
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

RE: Indian code

[Wallach, Levi]

Rizal, this isn't' a response to you, but your message just made me think of 
something related.  I'm just wondering whether the price doing business outside 
the U.S. is going up for those paying dollars, since the dollar has been 
falling.  I wonder if this will effect the move towards off-shoring negatively 
or if there will always be a much cheaper place to do business and so people 
will just switch from India to some place a little less developed that's 
starting to produce a critical mass of programmers (or at least entrepreneurs 
willing to train-up programmers in short order)?

Levi Wallach 

Blog: twelveblackcodemonkeys.com
DVD Review Site: dvdmon.com
Pictures at: http://wallachexpressions.smugmug.com/Photos%20by%20Levi



From: Rizal Firmansyah
Sent: Fri 1/28/05 1:55 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Indian code


Well, from my experience
fixing other people's code is frustating, most of the time :)
Bad variable name, bad technique, not to mention the indentation or 
comment, duh!

I'm running an offshore development service too (I'm Indonesian, not 
Indian), and 100% of my clients are happy (hopefully).
Some of them have been outsourcing their development projects for almost 6 
years now.
Of course, my rate is comparable to US rate though, not Indian :(

Anyway, I think It's not the outsource or the 'Indian code' as stated in 
the subject that matters :)
Instead it's how the client choose their programmers.
And somehow i think we're responsible for guiding them to choose the best 
one, eh?

Between programmers, we can tell which one is good and one who isn't.
But how can we really tell the client that we'll do the job better?
Do clients have to try the bad one first, and then send it back to us to 
fix it?
Or how can we compete the low-price service offered by many offshore-er out 
there?

Being a Macromedia Certified XX or Microsoft Certified XX isn't really 
helpful eh?
Esp. in 3rd world country, which i live now, those certification can be 
earned easily...

Just a thought at 2am...
Dying here to compete with those low-priced developers, argh :(

Rizal


~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2244
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Rizal Firmansyah]

Well, from my experience
fixing other people's code is frustating, most of the time :)
Bad variable name, bad technique, not to mention the indentation or 
comment, duh!

I'm running an offshore development service too (I'm Indonesian, not 
Indian), and 100% of my clients are happy (hopefully).
Some of them have been outsourcing their development projects for almost 6 
years now.
Of course, my rate is comparable to US rate though, not Indian :(

Anyway, I think It's not the outsource or the 'Indian code' as stated in 
the subject that matters :)
Instead it's how the client choose their programmers.
And somehow i think we're responsible for guiding them to choose the best 
one, eh?

Between programmers, we can tell which one is good and one who isn't.
But how can we really tell the client that we'll do the job better?
Do clients have to try the bad one first, and then send it back to us to 
fix it?
Or how can we compete the low-price service offered by many offshore-er out 
there?

Being a Macromedia Certified XX or Microsoft Certified XX isn't really 
helpful eh?
Esp. in 3rd world country, which i live now, those certification can be 
earned easily...

Just a thought at 2am...
Dying here to compete with those low-priced developers, argh :(

Rizal


At 10:30 AM 1/28/2005, you wrote:
>OK, I was just asked to find a bug on a live site and fix it. The site was 
>written by an outsource indian and he was not available. I went into the 
>site, looked over the code and found the problem in no time. While 
>looking, I mentioned to the client that the code looked like it was done 
>by a first month CF programmer. You know the type, pound signs everywhere, 
>lots of CFIFs, etc. Didn't say the code sucked or anything, just that it 
>looked amaturish.
>The response? A request to tutor the outsource programmer to bring them up 
>to par.
>
>Why am I posting this? Because I've heard time and again about the quality 
>of outsourced code and wanted to chime in with my experience. The code was 
>simple, mostly hard coded and simplistic looking. Either outsourced code 
>will improve or all those jobs will come back here to quality code.
>
>

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2243
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

RE: Indian code

[Dan O'Keefe]

What was your response to his request? 


Dan
=== Previous Message Below ===

-Original Message-
From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:30 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Indian code

OK, I was just asked to find a bug on a live site and fix it. The site was
written by an outsource indian and he was not available. I went into the
site, looked over the code and found the problem in no time. While looking,
I mentioned to the client that the code looked like it was done by a first
month CF programmer. You know the type, pound signs everywhere, lots of
CFIFs, etc. Didn't say the code sucked or anything, just that it looked
amaturish. 
The response? A request to tutor the outsource programmer to bring them up
to par. 

Why am I posting this? Because I've heard time and again about the quality
of outsourced code and wanted to chime in with my experience. The code was
simple, mostly hard coded and simplistic looking. Either outsourced code
will improve or all those jobs will come back here to quality code. 



~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2242
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Aaron Rouse]

hmmm ... guess you have never seen the CF code from some of the people
at my work ... sadly I a not joking.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:30:03 -0500, Michael Dinowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  You know the type, pound signs everywhere, lots of CFIFs, etc.


-- 
Aaron Rouse
http://www.happyhacker.com/

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2241
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Re: Indian code

[Jeffry Houser]

  By many reports, the Indian's do programming better than us Americans.
  However, I've also heard just as many reports that mirror your experience.

  I don't have any personal experience to draw upon.  I think long-term 
some types of projects will come back, and some will fit well to 
off-shoring.  My biggest problem is communication w/ the Indians.

  I've had two or three that found me on Yahoo Messenger and like to ask me 
questions.  It is very frustrating, especially when they ask things like:

[removed[: I have a question may I ask you?
Reboog711: Sure
[removed[: I want to have the user put the data into a form, submit it, and 
then get to look at it before it goes into the database?
Reboog711: That wasn't a question.
[removed]: How??

  I don't mind helping people, but I was pretty sure from past 
conversations with this identity that I'd have to explain the concept form 
variables.

At 10:30 PM 1/27/2005, Michael Dinowitz wrote:
>OK, I was just asked to find a bug on a live site and fix it. The site was 
>written by an outsource indian and he was not available. I went into the 
>site, looked over the code and found the problem in no time. While 
>looking, I mentioned to the client that the code looked like it was done 
>by a first month CF programmer. You know the type, pound signs everywhere, 
>lots of CFIFs, etc. Didn't say the code sucked or anything, just that it 
>looked amaturish.
>The response? A request to tutor the outsource programmer to bring them up 
>to par.
>
>Why am I posting this? Because I've heard time and again about the quality 
>of outsourced code and wanted to chime in with my experience. The code was 
>simple, mostly hard coded and simplistic looking. Either outsourced code 
>will improve or all those jobs will come back here to quality code.



--
Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer
AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773
--
My Books: 
My Recording Studio: 
My Energetic Acoustic Rock Band: 
--
When did Reality Become TV 



~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble 
Ticket application

http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2240
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

RE: Indian code

[Wallach, Levi]

I hope you told him that you're not a trainer.  Ugh.  Why don't you
train your competition so that we need you even less!  Does this make
any sense??

Levi Wallach - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog: http://twelveblackcodemonkeys.blog-city.com
Pictures: http://wallachexpressions.smugmug.com/Photos%20by%20Levi 

> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:30 PM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: Indian code
> 
> OK, I was just asked to find a bug on a live site and fix it. 
> The site was written by an outsource indian and he was not 
> available. I went into the site, looked over the code and 
> found the problem in no time. While looking, I mentioned to 
> the client that the code looked like it was done by a first 
> month CF programmer. You know the type, pound signs 
> everywhere, lots of CFIFs, etc. Didn't say the code sucked or 
> anything, just that it looked amaturish. 
> The response? A request to tutor the outsource programmer to 
> bring them up to par. 
> 
> Why am I posting this? Because I've heard time and again 
> about the quality of outsourced code and wanted to chime in 
> with my experience. The code was simple, mostly hard coded 
> and simplistic looking. Either outsourced code will improve 
> or all those jobs will come back here to quality code. 
> 
> 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2239
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54

Indian code

[Michael Dinowitz]

OK, I was just asked to find a bug on a live site and fix it. The site was 
written by an outsource indian and he was not available. I went into the site, 
looked over the code and found the problem in no time. While looking, I 
mentioned to the client that the code looked like it was done by a first month 
CF programmer. You know the type, pound signs everywhere, lots of CFIFs, etc. 
Didn't say the code sucked or anything, just that it looked amaturish. 
The response? A request to tutor the outsource programmer to bring them up to 
par. 

Why am I posting this? Because I've heard time and again about the quality of 
outsourced code and wanted to chime in with my experience. The code was simple, 
mostly hard coded and simplistic looking. Either outsourced code will improve 
or all those jobs will come back here to quality code. 

~|
Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support 
efficiency by 100%
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49

Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2238
Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
Unsubscribe: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54