Re: CMS Vs Framework
Nils as others have pointed out. A framework is something that helps you achieve something, like a screwdriver it is a tool that helps you remove and insert screws into small holes to do its job. Think if a framework like a tool belt of tools that help you create and application, but it means that the CMS is now coupled to using that framework only. A CMS is an Application, that can be built using a framework or it can be built without a framework. Regards, Andrew Scott WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/ Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411 On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Nils wrote: > > Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= > experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= > If a CF CMS system such as Mura & speck already include a framework > such=0A= > as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= > understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= > managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= > they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= > I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= > integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= > Suggestion? ideas? > -- > -Nils > The Computer Chief > IT Solutions and Website Hosting > > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357307 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
I stand corrected. I didn't mean to make that statement. The overall point though was covered by Dave. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Andrew Scott wrote: > > Philip ContentBox is not using ColdBox as you describe, let me be very > clear here. A framework helps you achieve common application problems, for > example ColdBox provides the ability to provide AOP and ContentBox uses > this feature of the framework heavily. But the framework was not as you put > it designed to work with the CMS. > > Regards, > Andrew Scott > WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/ > Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411 > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Phillip Vector > wrote: > > > > > >Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of > > framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just > > always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? > > > > There isn't always a framework built into it (or if there is one, it's > been > > set up specifically for the CMS). > > > > The reason you don't always use a CMS is too varied to get into here. > > Suffice it to say that CMS systems aren't always the best way to make > > webpages. > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Nils Nehrenheim > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of > > > framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just > > > always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? > > > > > > > > > > >>Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? > > > > > > > > I'm affraid you are comparing apples and oranges. > > > > You would use a CF framework to develop a CMS system but you wouldn't > > > > have to develop anything if you use a CMS system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357306 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
Philip ContentBox is not using ColdBox as you describe, let me be very clear here. A framework helps you achieve common application problems, for example ColdBox provides the ability to provide AOP and ContentBox uses this feature of the framework heavily. But the framework was not as you put it designed to work with the CMS. Regards, Andrew Scott WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/ Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411 On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Phillip Vector wrote: > > >Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of > framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just > always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? > > There isn't always a framework built into it (or if there is one, it's been > set up specifically for the CMS). > > The reason you don't always use a CMS is too varied to get into here. > Suffice it to say that CMS systems aren't always the best way to make > webpages. > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Nils Nehrenheim > wrote: > > > > > Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of > > framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just > > always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? > > > > > > > >>Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? > > > > > > I'm affraid you are comparing apples and oranges. > > > You would use a CF framework to develop a CMS system but you wouldn't > > > have to develop anything if you use a CMS system. > > > > > > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357305 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
The real answer is "it depends". What's the site for? Is, as someone else mentioned, a primarily "content" site? How closely does it fit with the model the CMS provides? etc. As for ecommerce, don't build your own unless you've used several others already and have a very specific reason to. There's Slatwall on the CFML side. Aside from that, you really should try to use one of the SaaS platforms if at all possible - Shopify, etc. And I say this as someone who's written several ecommerce engines. On 12/5/13 3:41 PM, Nils wrote: > Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= > experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= > If a CF CMS system such as Mura & speck already include a framework such=0A= > as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= > understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= > managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= > they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= > I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= > integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= > Suggestion? ideas? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357304 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
Sorry, first paragraph should read its often far easier to do the latter than the former. My bad. On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:19 PM, Jon Clausen wrote: > > To answer your question, the major difference between customizing a CMS > versus incorporating your content management within a framework, IMHO, comes > *after* the site is built. That said, I think its often far easier to do the > former than the latter, as most CMS systems arent documented to be fully > customized but, instead are documented to develop against their own, limited, > plugin architecture. > > The customization of a standalone CMS almost always involves a heavy > forking of the distributed file system. Doing this breaks forward > compatibility and upgrades and simple security patches become complex > diff-merges that nearly always break your customizations. CMS customizations > also frequently involve customizations to the database, unless you attempt to > jump through many, many hoops to shoehorn the customizations in to the > existing conventions and database structure of the CMS. Once you start with > the forking of the database structure, upgrade headaches increase > exponentially. > > Building on a framework allows you to more effectively maintain the site over > the long-haul as, most often, you are swapping out a non-forked or > lightly-forked version for a newer one. Take for example, the Coldbox > framework. The ContentBox CMS is built as a module of the main framework, > with a module structure of its own which mirrors (and can be hooked-in to) > the main framework. This allows one to develop a robust application on the > core framework, while hooking in to the module of the CMS as required or > ignoring it when its not needed. > > I like CMS systems. They are a great tool for solving specific, mostly > basic, problems. They also tend to be well supported over the long-term as > there is a wide user base with a vested interest in keeping them going. Ive > got three major apps I still maintain that were developed on great frameworks > that died slowly and quietly. Thats one of the dangers to developing on > bleeding edge frameworks, but its one Ill take most of the time, if there > are specific needs that either arent addressed or are over-complicated by > attempting to customize the CMS. > > HTH, > Jon > > On Dec 5, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Nils wrote: > >> >> Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= >> experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= >> If a CF CMS system such as Mura & speck already include a framework such=0A= >> as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= >> understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= >> managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= >> they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= >> I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= >> integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= >> Suggestion? ideas? >> -- >> -Nils >> The Computer Chief >> IT Solutions and Website Hosting >> >> >> >> > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357303 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
To answer your question, the major difference between customizing a CMS versus incorporating your content management within a framework, IMHO, comes *after* the site is built. That said, I think its often far easier to do the former than the latter, as most CMS systems arent documented to be fully customized but, instead are documented to develop against their own, limited, plugin architecture. The customization of a standalone CMS almost always involves a heavy forking of the distributed file system. Doing this breaks forward compatibility and upgrades and simple security patches become complex diff-merges that nearly always break your customizations. CMS customizations also frequently involve customizations to the database, unless you attempt to jump through many, many hoops to shoehorn the customizations in to the existing conventions and database structure of the CMS. Once you start with the forking of the database structure, upgrade headaches increase exponentially. Building on a framework allows you to more effectively maintain the site over the long-haul as, most often, you are swapping out a non-forked or lightly-forked version for a newer one. Take for example, the Coldbox framework. The ContentBox CMS is built as a module of the main framework, with a module structure of its own which mirrors (and can be hooked-in to) the main framework. This allows one to develop a robust application on the core framework, while hooking in to the module of the CMS as required or ignoring it when its not needed. I like CMS systems. They are a great tool for solving specific, mostly basic, problems. They also tend to be well supported over the long-term as there is a wide user base with a vested interest in keeping them going. Ive got three major apps I still maintain that were developed on great frameworks that died slowly and quietly. Thats one of the dangers to developing on bleeding edge frameworks, but its one Ill take most of the time, if there are specific needs that either arent addressed or are over-complicated by attempting to customize the CMS. HTH, Jon On Dec 5, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Nils wrote: > > Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= > experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= > If a CF CMS system such as Mura & speck already include a framework such=0A= > as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= > understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= > managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= > they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= > I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= > integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= > Suggestion? ideas? > -- > -Nils > The Computer Chief > IT Solutions and Website Hosting > > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357302 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
> Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of > framework built inside, there's no > need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your > heart's content? The "C" in CMS stands for "Content". If you're building a site that's all (or perhaps mostly) content, use a CMS. But many sites are not content - they're applications that let the user do something. Those are not a good fit for CMSs. Frameworks let you build applications. Those applications might be CMSs, or something else - it really doesn't matter. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357301 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
>Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? There isn't always a framework built into it (or if there is one, it's been set up specifically for the CMS). The reason you don't always use a CMS is too varied to get into here. Suffice it to say that CMS systems aren't always the best way to make webpages. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Nils Nehrenheim wrote: > > Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of > framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just > always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? > > > > >>Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? > > > > I'm affraid you are comparing apples and oranges. > > You would use a CF framework to develop a CMS system but you wouldn't > > have to develop anything if you use a CMS system. > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357300 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? > >>Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? > > I'm affraid you are comparing apples and oranges. > You would use a CF framework to develop a CMS system but you wouldn't > have to develop anything if you use a CMS system. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357299 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
>>Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I'm affraid you are comparing apples and oranges. You would use a CF framework to develop a CMS system but you wouldn't have to develop anything if you use a CMS system. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357298 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
CMS = A system where pages can be loaded with data from a database and the user usually has direct control over the actual page contents and formatting. Usually is good when you have lots of users each wanting their own page. Frameworks = A set of rules how files are set up and work together. Usually having some core files to help manage the data easier. These 2 things have very little, if anything, to do with each other. Also, as a personal recommendation, don't do an ecommerce site without first at least getting your own website set up. You are going to be dealing with financial information and if you are just beginning as a web developer (which, no offense, it sounds like you are), you really don't want to have that be your first project without at least some heavy mentoring. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Nils wrote: > > Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= > experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= > If a CF CMS system such as Mura & speck already include a framework > such=0A= > as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= > understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= > managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= > they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= > I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= > integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= > Suggestion? ideas? > -- > -Nils > The Computer Chief > IT Solutions and Website Hosting > > > > ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357297 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
CMS Vs Framework
Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= If a CF CMS system such as Mura & speck already include a framework such=0A= as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= Suggestion? ideas? -- -Nils The Computer Chief IT Solutions and Website Hosting ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357296 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
