Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf object creation

[Tom Chiverton]

On Friday 24 November 2006 12:36, Rick Root wrote:
> There *ARE* reasons to bring back large amounts of data sometimes.

Maybe.
Maybe you could bring back twice the number of visible rows in the datagrid to 
start with, and page in more in the background though.
A revised search cancels the current background fill, filters the current data 
provider and starts again.

Just thinking out loud.

-- 
Tom Chiverton
Helping to administratively transition magnetic e-tailers



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Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf object creation

[Rick Root]

Tom Chiverton wrote:
> On Thursday 23 November 2006 23:04, Mark Mandel wrote:
>> How did this manage to change in the Flex world?
> 
> CF queries can't be sent out via remote methods.
> 

Yeah, but coldfusion converts them to array collections, which are 
arrays of objects.

(I think the coldfusion flex connector does the conversion)

I wonder if the original topic used the built in conversion.. I know 
somep eople out there do he conversions themselves and have CF return 
arrays of objects rather than queries.  Maybe that's the problem.

Rick


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Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf object creation

[Rick Root]

Tom Chiverton wrote:
> 
> I still maintin that if you are even trying to send 2000 of anything down to 
> the client (HTML, WebService or Flex), you need to rethink things - there is 
> no way a user can cope with 2000 things at once, so why send them all at 
> once ?

I hate seeing responses like this.

I've got an data inquiry application where clients regularly pull back 
thousands of records into a data grid.  The datagrid contains basic 
information about each record in the database (in this case, people) 
with links to a detail screen about each entity.

Then, they'll go through the records pulling out specific details about 
the entities... they might just be "eyeballing" the results to make sure 
it looks like they expect it to before generating a drop file or a 
printed report.  The datagrid itself can handle thousands of rows quite 
efficiently... at least in AS3.

Here's an example.  Let's say they're looking for numerous people with 
the same last name:  Smith.  They do a last name search on all the 
Smith's who graduated in 1975.  Then they use the datagrid filter I've 
set up and they type in "Emily" and the grid gets filtered down to X 
records... they find the specific person, then they clear the filter and 
type in "James".  Again, the data is filtered down without hitting the 
server.  They do it one more time and type in "Robert" and find who 
they'rel ooking for.

Sure, I could do three individual searches, but from the USERS 
perspective, the way I've described it above is much more efficient, and 
a lot easier for them to use.

There *ARE* reasons to bring back large amounts of data sometimes.

Rick


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Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf object creation

[Tom Chiverton]

On Thursday 23 November 2006 23:04, Mark Mandel wrote:
> How did this manage to change in the Flex world?

CF queries can't be sent out via remote methods.

-- 
Tom Chiverton
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Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf object creation

[Tom Chiverton]

On Friday 24 November 2006 00:15, greg h wrote:
> I am trying to learn what the options are.  Have you had call to "rethink
> things" on an RIA due to large data sets?  If so, what did you do?

Not yet - our extranet / internet apps only have a few tens of items at 
present.
Internally we've found several hundred items to be fast enough not to worry 
us.

When (if - Adobe may fix CreateObject() !) we get that bridge, we'll have to 
look at paginated data sets.

>ce.html>class of FDS.  But I am pretty fuzzy on the whole FDS thing.  (I
> understand that CF 7.0.2 has FDS built in, but that there may be CPU

CF 7.0.2 does not have FDS built it. 7.0.2 has Flex Remoting built it - this 
means you can invoke server side CFC methods from client side Flash.

> limitations.  And that buying separate FDS licenses bumps project costs in
> $10K or $20K increments (unsure of details).)

Exactly.
Far too expensive, imvho.

> Should DataGrids just revert back to "next-n" style interfaces?

Yup. FDS makes this transparent though, iirc.

> noticeable and undesirable.  I will first be reworking my app to not use
> createObject() so any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated :-)

Returning an array of struts from ColdFusion, and then parsing this yourself 
into an ArrayCollection of AS classes appears to be the way to go.

> shows a ton of graphs" where he needed "create like 60 objects that will be
> holding approximately 100,000 datapoints apiece and i need to create those
> objects dynamically..."
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/message/27677

!
What is the point of showing 6 million data points in a web browser ? Not 
surprised it didn't work well.
Geez.

> Again, my guess is these are GUI specific issues.  Still, I want to know
> that CF has reliable solutions to serve as the backend of choice where
> these requirements come up :-)

As always, CF can do anything. Weather you should, that's a different question 
sometimes :-)

-- 
Tom Chiverton
Helping to confidentially harness guinine m-commerce



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Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf object creation

[greg h]

Tom,

With HTML UIs, we pretty universally use "next-n"
interfacesto
address the issue of large data sets being returned to the client.
(That
is, we initially present a subset of the full data set, and then use
subsequent request-responses to send over additional subsets of the data on
demand.)

So the need to "rethink things" due to large data sets is only coming up in
RIA development like Flash forms, Flex and AJAX.  For instance where the
data is going into a  or a Flex DataGrid.  A UI element like a
DataGrid somewhat mitigates your observation that "there is no way a user
can cope with 2000 things at once", since all they may be viewing at once
are 20 to 50 rows.  But then there is the scrollbar.  And sort and search
filters applied client side.  Etc.

I am trying to learn what the options are.  Have you had call to "rethink
things" on an RIA due to large data sets?  If so, what did you do?

Clearly Adobe has anticipated this by including paged
requestsin
the
DataServiceclass
of FDS.  But I am pretty fuzzy on the whole FDS thing.  (I understand
that CF 7.0.2 has FDS built in, but that there may be CPU limitations.  And
that buying separate FDS licenses bumps project costs in $10K or $20K
increments (unsure of details).)

Should DataGrids just revert back to "next-n" style interfaces?

I have an application that currently is returning 400 records.  I have the
records going into a DataGrid.  Using createObject(), the latency is
noticeable and undesirable.  I will first be reworking my app to not use
createObject() so any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated :-)

And though this is not my case, check out this seemingly crazy case where a
developer was using ColdFusion as the back end of "an application that shows
a ton of graphs" where he needed "create like 60 objects that will be
holding approximately 100,000 datapoints apiece and i need to create those
objects dynamically..."
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/message/27677

Again, my guess is these are GUI specific issues.  Still, I want to know
that CF has reliable solutions to serve as the backend of choice where these
requirements come up :-)

Best regards,

g


On 11/23/06, Tom Chiverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
>
> On Thursday 23 November 2006 16:22, greg h wrote:
> >200 records As objects:  1180 ms,  As structs:  150 ms
> >2000 recordsAs objects:  10,800 ms,  As structs:  460 ms
>
> I still maintin that if you are even trying to send 2000 of anything down
> to
> the client (HTML, WebService or Flex), you need to rethink things - there
> is
> no way a user can cope with 2000 things at once, so why send them all at
> once ?
>
> --
> Tom Chiverton
> Helping to enormously engage interactive relationships
>
> 
>


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Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf object creation

[Mark Mandel]

This came up in a Flex preso we had at the local CFUG - where the
presenter was sending over arrays of actual objects to Flex.

>From my development experience, generating large collections of
objects should be avoided at all costs - this is why we have queries -
they provide a decent enough abstraction from the given collection of
data.

You tend to only look at objects when looking at a particular record
of data - e.g. a User.

How did this manage to change in the Flex world?

Mark

On 11/24/06, Mark Drew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I thought I would do a comparison test... interesting results I must
> say...
>
> http://www.markdrew.co.uk/blog/
>
> Let me know if any of my logic is flawed
>
> Regards
>
> Mark Drew
>
>
> On 23 Nov 2006, at 19:32, Kevin Aebig wrote:
>
> > I agree, but it's a valid way of picking things apart.
> >
> > I would hope that most people doing these types of testing aren't
> > the kinds
> > of people to process that amount of data at any one time.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > !k
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Tom Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 10:45 AM
> > To: CF-Talk
> > Subject: Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain,
> > avoid cf
> > object creation
> >
> > On Thursday 23 November 2006 16:22, greg h wrote:
> >>200 records As objects:  1180 ms,  As structs:  150 ms
> >>2000 recordsAs objects:  10,800 ms,  As structs:  460 ms
> >
> > I still maintin that if you are even trying to send 2000 of
> > anything down to
> >
> > the client (HTML, WebService or Flex), you need to rethink things -
> > there is
> >
> > no way a user can cope with 2000 things at once, so why send them
> > all at
> > once ?
> >
> > --
> > Tom Chiverton
> > Helping to enormously engage interactive relationships
> >
> > 
> >
> > This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.
> >
> > Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in
> > England and
> > Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office
> > address is at
> > St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.  A list of members is
> > available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a
> > partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells
> > LLP.
> > Regulated by the Law Society.
> >
> > CONFIDENTIALITY
> >
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> > be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the
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> > please
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> >
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>
> 

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Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf object creation

[Mark Drew]

I thought I would do a comparison test... interesting results I must  
say...

http://www.markdrew.co.uk/blog/

Let me know if any of my logic is flawed

Regards

Mark Drew


On 23 Nov 2006, at 19:32, Kevin Aebig wrote:

> I agree, but it's a valid way of picking things apart.
>
> I would hope that most people doing these types of testing aren't  
> the kinds
> of people to process that amount of data at any one time.
>
> Cheers,
>
> !k
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Tom Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 10:45 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain,  
> avoid cf
> object creation
>
> On Thursday 23 November 2006 16:22, greg h wrote:
>>200 records As objects:  1180 ms,  As structs:  150 ms
>>2000 recordsAs objects:  10,800 ms,  As structs:  460 ms
>
> I still maintin that if you are even trying to send 2000 of  
> anything down to
>
> the client (HTML, WebService or Flex), you need to rethink things -  
> there is
>
> no way a user can cope with 2000 things at once, so why send them  
> all at
> once ?
>
> -- 
> Tom Chiverton
> Helping to enormously engage interactive relationships
>
> 
>
> This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.
>
> Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in  
> England and
> Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office  
> address is at
> St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.  A list of members is
> available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a
> partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells  
> LLP.
> Regulated by the Law Society.
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY
>
> This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named  
> above and may
> be confidential or legally privileged.  If you are not the  
> addressee you
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> copy it
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> its
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> please
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RE: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf object creation

[Kevin Aebig]

I agree, but it's a valid way of picking things apart. 

I would hope that most people doing these types of testing aren't the kinds
of people to process that amount of data at any one time.

Cheers,

!k

-Original Message-
From: Tom Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 10:45 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf
object creation

On Thursday 23 November 2006 16:22, greg h wrote:
>200 records As objects:  1180 ms,  As structs:  150 ms
>2000 recordsAs objects:  10,800 ms,  As structs:  460 ms

I still maintin that if you are even trying to send 2000 of anything down to

the client (HTML, WebService or Flex), you need to rethink things - there is

no way a user can cope with 2000 things at once, so why send them all at 
once ?

-- 
Tom Chiverton
Helping to enormously engage interactive relationships



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Re: ColdFusion and Flex Integration - up to 10x gain, avoid cf object creation

[Tom Chiverton]

On Thursday 23 November 2006 16:22, greg h wrote:
>200 records As objects:  1180 ms,  As structs:  150 ms
>2000 recordsAs objects:  10,800 ms,  As structs:  460 ms

I still maintin that if you are even trying to send 2000 of anything down to 
the client (HTML, WebService or Flex), you need to rethink things - there is 
no way a user can cope with 2000 things at once, so why send them all at 
once ?

-- 
Tom Chiverton
Helping to enormously engage interactive relationships



This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.

Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and 
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