Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature
I had a blown 454 for years that ran 220°-230° in traffic. Despite this, it never had any excess wear,overheat, breakdown or damage. I did also have an oil cooler that kept bottom end temperature to 180°. I achieved the best cooling on this with no thermastat, but an old stat with the guts taken out & hole enlarged slightly to provide some flow limitations. It also cooled better with a small block water pump pulley, which was smaller diameter than the original big block pulley (I think 6" vs 7" dia?) to turn the water pump faster. So I don't think the temperature is a problem, unless the engine is old, but you should be able to get a 283 to run cooler than 200°. My .02 Glenn From: Tim Moebes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:06:04 -0800 Gents, I'm changing the subject of this thread because I had my main question answered and because I suspect my sub-question will continue to be debated. Smitty, I appreciate your input, but I simply can't believe that anything over 200 is dangerous. Perhaps you were running straight water with a low pressure cap. I drove my Elky down from Seattle to Tucson in May with just the warning light, and it came on once while stuck in Las Vegas traffic. It was hot that afternoon. I never lost coolant with the pressure cap (16 lb) and I do not have a cracked head or blown head gasket. The car ran fine cruising on the highway and it still does (great with the HEI distributor I put in down here.) When I arrived in Tucson, I put the gauge in and noted that in the heat of the day it would run at 230, way too hot, and more when stopped at a light. But that experience told me that the warning light probably didn't come on until 240 or 245. Why would it: you won't begin to lose coolant until what, 250? I never did. The aluminum crossflow rad I installed brought temps down 20 or more degrees. I agree that sustained high-speed driving at elevated temperatures is hard on the engine. I simply want input on what that point is. Perhaps more directly, I suppose I need information from other desert dwellers how hot their vehicles run under load in the heat of the day. This information will let me decide whether I need a high-flow water pump or other improvements. I haven't had the chance to seek out the local car clubs, but that is probably where I should look. Finally, I simply refuse to believe given my experience that the venerable 283 is as delicate as Smitty warns. A 20-degree operating range is absurd for an engine rebuilt with late-80s head gasket technology. Or so I hope. :-) Respectfully, Tim Moebes 66 El Camino -Original Message- Dan and Tom. I've owned many a chevelle and the 283 called for a 180 degree Thermostat. If your temp goes over 200 you could have boiling and steam, this a warning to stop and let your enigine cool down. We use to leave the engine running and spray water into the front of the Radiator until she cooled down enough to get the Rad. cap off (NEVER add water to a HOT engine with the motor turned OFF, This will surely crack you block), covering the cap to keep from getting yourself burnt, then we would add water to top her off. You reach the 220 mark and you've cooked the head gasket and probably cracked a head as well. Hope this will help, Smitty in SC - To Unsubscribe please visit www.chevelles.net/list.html To start a new topic, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - To Unsubscribe please visit www.chevelles.net/list.html To start a new topic, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic..
Title: Message
Thanks for all the help... Since I am planning on
changing my gauges soon I think I will get the cheaper one
Larry
- Original Message -
From: Rodney.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs
Manual : While where on this topic..
Woops! :) Ya, you're right, I got the
fc3. http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc3.shtml
It's working fine, I'm just wondering if I went
with the right "temp on" for my setup. I won't know until summer
though. The other one would be nice just so you could play with it to see
what temp works best for kicking the fans on.
Rodney.
71 Chevelle
El Mirage, AZ
- Original Message -
From:
Dale McIntosh
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:17
PM
Subject: RE: [Chevelle-List] Operating
temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic..
Rodney,
I've seen the Centec unit advertised somewhere before.
Looks like a simple and elegant solution if you have a place to mount the
box. Your two links (wish you'd splurged and what you did get) are the
same unit. I assume you meant that you got the relay kit http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc3.shtml?
Still looks like it'd work alright if you have a place for a temp
sender.
Dale McIntosh
-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Rodney.Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:36
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re:
[Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on
this topic..
I was looking at this one when I bought my
fans... wish I would have splurged... http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc2p.shtml
I ended up with this one: http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc2p.shtml
This one looks nice too: http://www.geocities.com/diels12000/FanWiringII.jpg
It's a PermaCool p/n: 18905
Rodney.
71 Chevelle
El Mirage, AZ
- Original Message -
From:
Larry
Brown
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:53
PM
Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List]
Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this
topic..
I have an electric fan that I bought from
ebay... just not sure how to hook it up.. Does anyone know of a kit for
the electronic stuff...
Larry
65 Chevelle Sled...
- Original Message -
From: Michael Pell
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric
vs Manual
I think the reason is simply that the 7 blade clutch fan,
shrouded appropriately, pulls a LOT of air.
Believe it or not, my 468ci COOLS DOWN when sitting in traffic.
Go figure. It dropped about 10 degrees over about an hour while
waiting on an accident to get cleaned up. Std 4 core radiator, '73
HD 7 blade clutch fan, properly shrouded. At about 2000rpm, if I stand
in front of the grill with a loose fitting, untucked T-shirt on, it'll get
sucked up to the grill. Works like a champ.
It certainly is the cheaper route to go, and it's been working for 30+
years.
Now, an electric fan and/or elec water pump is especially nice when you
shut the engine off and want to cool down sooner.
Don wrote:
I'm with you on this one Steve, I plan
on replacing my radiator & fan next year but I'm really not sure how
to go. I was originally planning on an aluminum radiator with two high
efficiency electric fans & maybe even an electric water pump. But
having heard so many swear by a standard 4 core radiator & a clutch
fan set up I'm not sure what to do.It seems to me that the electric would work
better especially at slow speeds/in traffic, but that's not what
everyone seems to be saying is the case.Don
I have read & heard several places now where manual fans
work better than electric. I have even heard of guys dumping a several
hundred dollar electric fan setup to go back to a manual fan. I am
just having trouble understanding why .when you consider that in
MOST cases temperature will go up only when sitting in traffic or
otherwise going too slow for air to be forced through the
radiator.Now, when you are sitting
in traffic...or going slow ..you are mostly relying on the fan to pull
air through the radiator to keep your en
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual
Title: Message
Thanks for the input
Herb.
Don
Hi Don,
I used to have a clutch fan/shroud/Griffin radiator setup and it did
ok. Unfortunately, the clutch lasted about 2 months (I guess OEM
clutches weren't designed for 6000 rpm big blocks).
What I have now is a pair of Spal 12" high performance pull fans (part
#30100176, 1630cfm each) with a thermo relay. I used a sheet of flat
aluminum as a shroud - the fans mount to the shroud, the shroud mounts to the
2 row Griffin radiator w/ a 160 thermostat.
http://www.spal-usa.com/html/dampframe.htm
So far it seems to run in the 180-190 range in stop/slow traffic with or
without the AC on. Out on the open highway the fans stay off and the
temp drops to about 160, even on a hot day.
Just another option to look at...
cYa-
Herb Lumpp1966 El CaminoACES 3509, MCC 528http://users.adelphia.net/~hlump/
- Original Message -
From:
Don
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 6:15
PM
Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating
temperature- Electric vs Manual
I'm with you on this one Steve, I plan
on replacing my radiator & fan next year but I'm really not sure how to
go. I was originally planning on an aluminum radiator with two high
efficiency electric fans & maybe even an electric water pump. But having
heard so many swear by a standard 4 core radiator & a clutch fan set up
I'm not sure what to do.
It seems to me that the electric would
work better especially at slow speeds/in traffic, but that's not what
everyone seems to be saying is the case.
Don
I have read & heard several places now where
manual fans work better than electric. I have even heard of guys dumping a
several hundred dollar electric fan setup to go back to a manual fan. I am
just having trouble understanding why .when you consider that in MOST
cases temperature will go up only when sitting in traffic or
otherwise going too slow for air to be forced through the
radiator.
Now, when you are sitting in traffic...or going
slow ..you are mostly relying on the fan to pull air through the radiator
to keep your engine cool. A manual fan is turning at a rate that is
relative to the engine RPM's. This is when your engine RPM's are at their
lowest .and theoretically the fan would be pulling the least amount of
air through at the lower RPM's.
With electric fanswhen the temp went up high
enough to kick the thermal switch on, the fans would be turning at a
high rate of speed and, in my mind at least, be pulling much more air
through the radiator than a manual fan could at a low
idle.
I must be dense. I mean I know this is one
situation where the cheaper way is best .but I am having troubles
understanding why!
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature
First of all, Tim, I was not telling you that it was dangerous to run your engine at 200 degrees. I was raised in the deserts of Barstow Calif ( now in charleston SC) and with my early experiences we found that a STOCK 283 V8 motor (195 or 225 HP) was engineered to run at 180-195. At 200 it was typical for there to be an overheating and you would have signs it was time to stop runnig the engine until you cooled the engine or found the heating dilema. Generally speaking this took place around the 200-210 mark (engine heating rises too quickly then you can have boiling until the engine has a chance to work on designed operating temps). Each car had its on little operating niches and would perform as such. You have coolant in it the Radiator, it can still boil, but, it depends on miles on engine, trans, service performed.. well you get my message. I'm not trying to be an expert here,but, I'm 58 and been playing, building and racing since I was a teenager, so without me there to hands on your car to draw my own conclusion and solutions... (One example is my 65 chevy P/U LB fleetside I've been running since VM, it, now, has a SB 400 that has Dyno at over 486 HP, That truck is all about porting, gearing and raw Hp to the rear (411 R/E) wheels). I can only operate on what I hear from you guys. Oh yes this is America, so, you don't have to except what I say,but appreciate this... I've only tried to help my fellow man, you included. I hope you find your cars niche before it gets too costly. Smitty Subject: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature > Gents, > Smitty, I appreciate your input, but I simply can't believe that anything > over 200 is dangerous. Perhaps you were running straight water with a low > pressure cap. I drove my Elky down from Seattle to Tucson in May with just > the warning light, and it came on once while stuck in Las Vegas traffic. It > was hot that afternoon. I never lost coolant with the pressure cap (16 lb) > and I do not have a cracked head or blown head gasket. The car ran fine > cruising on the highway and it still does (great with the HEI distributor I > put in down here.) > > When I arrived in Tucson, I put the gauge in and noted that in the heat of > the day it would run at 230, way too hot, and more when stopped at a light. > But that experience told me that the warning light probably didn't come on > until 240 or 245. Why would it: you won't begin to lose coolant until what, > 250? I never did. > > The aluminum crossflow rad I installed brought temps down 20 or more > degrees. > > I agree that sustained high-speed driving at elevated temperatures is hard > on the engine. I simply want input on what that point is. Perhaps more > directly, I suppose I need information from other desert dwellers how hot > their vehicles run under load in the heat of the day. This information will > let me decide whether I need a high-flow water pump or other improvements. I > haven't had the chance to seek out the local car clubs, but that is probably > where I should look. > > Finally, I simply refuse to believe given my experience that the venerable > 283 is as delicate as Smitty warns. A 20-degree operating range is absurd > for an engine rebuilt with late-80s head gasket technology. Or so I hope. > :-) > > Respectfully, > Tim Moebes > 66 El Camino > > -Original Message- > Dan and Tom. I've owned many a chevelle and the 283 called for a 180 > degree Thermostat. If your temp goes over 200 you could have boiling and > steam, this a warning to stop and let your enigine cool down. We use to > leave the engine running and spray water into the front of the Radiator > until she cooled down enough to get the Rad. cap off (NEVER add water to a > HOT engine with the motor turned OFF, This will surely crack you block), > covering the cap to keep from getting yourself burnt, then we would add > water to top her off. You reach the 220 mark and you've cooked the head > gasket and probably cracked a head as well. Hope this will help, Smitty in > SC > > > - > To Unsubscribe please visit www.chevelles.net/list.html > To start a new topic, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To Unsubscribe please visit www.chevelles.net/list.html To start a new topic, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic..
Title: Message
Woops! :) Ya, you're right, I got the
fc3. http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc3.shtml
It's working fine, I'm just wondering if I went
with the right "temp on" for my setup. I won't know until summer
though. The other one would be nice just so you could play with it to see
what temp works best for kicking the fans on.
Rodney.
71 Chevelle
El Mirage, AZ
- Original Message -
From:
Dale McIntosh
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:17
PM
Subject: RE: [Chevelle-List] Operating
temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic..
Rodney,
I've seen the Centec unit advertised somewhere before.
Looks like a simple and elegant solution if you have a place to mount the
box. Your two links (wish you'd splurged and what you did get) are the
same unit. I assume you meant that you got the relay kit http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc3.shtml?
Still looks like it'd work alright if you have a place for a temp
sender.
Dale McIntosh
-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Rodney.Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:36
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re:
[Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on
this topic..
I was looking at this one when I bought my
fans... wish I would have splurged... http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc2p.shtml
I ended up with this one: http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc2p.shtml
This one looks nice too: http://www.geocities.com/diels12000/FanWiringII.jpg
It's a PermaCool p/n: 18905
Rodney.
71 Chevelle
El Mirage, AZ
- Original Message -
From:
Larry
Brown
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:53
PM
Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List]
Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this
topic..
I have an electric fan that I bought from
ebay... just not sure how to hook it up.. Does anyone know of a kit for
the electronic stuff...
Larry
65 Chevelle Sled...
- Original Message -
From: Michael Pell
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric
vs Manual
I think the reason is simply that the 7 blade clutch fan,
shrouded appropriately, pulls a LOT of air.
Believe it or not, my 468ci COOLS DOWN when sitting in traffic.
Go figure. It dropped about 10 degrees over about an hour while
waiting on an accident to get cleaned up. Std 4 core radiator, '73
HD 7 blade clutch fan, properly shrouded. At about 2000rpm, if I stand
in front of the grill with a loose fitting, untucked T-shirt on, it'll get
sucked up to the grill. Works like a champ.
It certainly is the cheaper route to go, and it's been working for 30+
years.
Now, an electric fan and/or elec water pump is especially nice when you
shut the engine off and want to cool down sooner.
Don wrote:
I'm with you on this one Steve, I plan
on replacing my radiator & fan next year but I'm really not sure how
to go. I was originally planning on an aluminum radiator with two high
efficiency electric fans & maybe even an electric water pump. But
having heard so many swear by a standard 4 core radiator & a clutch
fan set up I'm not sure what to do.It seems to me that the electric would work
better especially at slow speeds/in traffic, but that's not what
everyone seems to be saying is the case.Don
I have read & heard several places now where manual fans
work better than electric. I have even heard of guys dumping a several
hundred dollar electric fan setup to go back to a manual fan. I am
just having trouble understanding why .when you consider that in
MOST cases temperature will go up only when sitting in traffic or
otherwise going too slow for air to be forced through the
radiator.Now, when you are sitting
in traffic...or going slow ..you are mostly relying on the fan to pull
air through the radiator to keep your engine cool. A manual fan is
turning at a rate that is relative to the engine RPM's. This is when
your engine RPM's are at their lowest .and theoretically the fan
would be pulling the least amount of air through at the lower
RPM's. With electric
fanswhen the t
RE: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic..
Title: Message
Rodney,
I've seen the Centec unit advertised somewhere before. Looks
like a simple and elegant solution if you have a place to mount the box.
Your two links (wish you'd splurged and what you did get) are the same
unit. I assume you meant that you got the relay kit http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc3.shtml?
Still looks like it'd work alright if you have a place for a temp
sender.
Dale McIntosh
-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Rodney.Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:36
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re:
[Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on
this topic..
I was looking at this one when I bought my
fans... wish I would have splurged... http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc2p.shtml
I ended up with this one: http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc2p.shtml
This one looks nice too: http://www.geocities.com/diels12000/FanWiringII.jpg
It's a PermaCool p/n: 18905
Rodney.
71 Chevelle
El Mirage, AZ
- Original Message -
From:
Larry
Brown
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:53
PM
Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating
temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic..
I have an electric fan that I bought from
ebay... just not sure how to hook it up.. Does anyone know of a kit for the
electronic stuff...
Larry
65 Chevelle Sled...
- Original Message -
From: Michael
Pell
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs
Manual
I think the reason is simply that the 7 blade clutch fan,
shrouded appropriately, pulls a LOT of air.
Believe it or not, my 468ci COOLS DOWN when sitting in traffic. Go
figure. It dropped about 10 degrees over about an hour while waiting
on an accident to get cleaned up. Std 4 core radiator, '73 HD 7 blade
clutch fan, properly shrouded. At about 2000rpm, if I stand in front of
the grill with a loose fitting, untucked T-shirt on, it'll get sucked up to
the grill. Works like a champ.
It certainly is the cheaper route to go, and it's been working for 30+
years.
Now, an electric fan and/or elec water pump is especially nice when you
shut the engine off and want to cool down sooner.
Don wrote:
I'm with you on this one Steve, I plan
on replacing my radiator & fan next year but I'm really not sure how
to go. I was originally planning on an aluminum radiator with two high
efficiency electric fans & maybe even an electric water pump. But
having heard so many swear by a standard 4 core radiator & a clutch
fan set up I'm not sure what to do.It seems to me that the electric would work
better especially at slow speeds/in traffic, but that's not what everyone
seems to be saying is the case.Don
I have read & heard several places now where manual fans
work better than electric. I have even heard of guys dumping a several
hundred dollar electric fan setup to go back to a manual fan. I am just
having trouble understanding why .when you consider that in MOST
cases temperature will go up only when sitting in traffic or otherwise
going too slow for air to be forced through the
radiator.Now, when you are sitting
in traffic...or going slow ..you are mostly relying on the fan to pull
air through the radiator to keep your engine cool. A manual fan is
turning at a rate that is relative to the engine RPM's. This is when
your engine RPM's are at their lowest .and theoretically the fan
would be pulling the least amount of air through at the lower
RPM's. With electric fanswhen
the temp went up high enough to kick the thermal switch on, the
fans would be turning at a high rate of speed and, in my mind at least,
be pulling much more air through the radiator than a manual fan could at
a low idle.I must be dense. I mean I
know this is one situation where the cheaper way is best .but I am
having troubles understanding
why!
-- Check out my webpage at http://www.ProStreetCar.com
and my For Sale page at http://www.ProStreetCar.com/classifieds.html
TREMEC Distributor at http://www.5speedTransmissions.com
Team Chevelle member #1778 (Gold), ACES member #1377
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual
Title: Message Hi Don, I used to have a clutch fan/shroud/Griffin radiator setup and it did ok. Unfortunately, the clutch lasted about 2 months (I guess OEM clutches weren't designed for 6000 rpm big blocks). What I have now is a pair of Spal 12" high performance pull fans (part #30100176, 1630cfm each) with a thermo relay. I used a sheet of flat aluminum as a shroud - the fans mount to the shroud, the shroud mounts to the 2 row Griffin radiator w/ a 160 thermostat. http://www.spal-usa.com/html/dampframe.htm So far it seems to run in the 180-190 range in stop/slow traffic with or without the AC on. Out on the open highway the fans stay off and the temp drops to about 160, even on a hot day. Just another option to look at... cYa- Herb Lumpp1966 El CaminoACES 3509, MCC 528http://users.adelphia.net/~hlump/ - Original Message - From: Don To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual I'm with you on this one Steve, I plan on replacing my radiator & fan next year but I'm really not sure how to go. I was originally planning on an aluminum radiator with two high efficiency electric fans & maybe even an electric water pump. But having heard so many swear by a standard 4 core radiator & a clutch fan set up I'm not sure what to do. It seems to me that the electric would work better especially at slow speeds/in traffic, but that's not what everyone seems to be saying is the case. Don I have read & heard several places now where manual fans work better than electric. I have even heard of guys dumping a several hundred dollar electric fan setup to go back to a manual fan. I am just having trouble understanding why .when you consider that in MOST cases temperature will go up only when sitting in traffic or otherwise going too slow for air to be forced through the radiator. Now, when you are sitting in traffic...or going slow ..you are mostly relying on the fan to pull air through the radiator to keep your engine cool. A manual fan is turning at a rate that is relative to the engine RPM's. This is when your engine RPM's are at their lowest .and theoretically the fan would be pulling the least amount of air through at the lower RPM's. With electric fanswhen the temp went up high enough to kick the thermal switch on, the fans would be turning at a high rate of speed and, in my mind at least, be pulling much more air through the radiator than a manual fan could at a low idle. I must be dense. I mean I know this is one situation where the cheaper way is best .but I am having troubles understanding why!
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic..
I was looking at this one when I bought my fans... wish I would have splurged... http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc2p.shtml I ended up with this one: http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/cooling/fc2p.shtml This one looks nice too: http://www.geocities.com/diels12000/FanWiringII.jpg It's a PermaCool p/n: 18905 Rodney. 71 Chevelle El Mirage, AZ - Original Message - From: Larry Brown To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic.. I have an electric fan that I bought from ebay... just not sure how to hook it up.. Does anyone know of a kit for the electronic stuff... Larry 65 Chevelle Sled... - Original Message - From: Michael Pell To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual I think the reason is simply that the 7 blade clutch fan, shrouded appropriately, pulls a LOT of air. Believe it or not, my 468ci COOLS DOWN when sitting in traffic. Go figure. It dropped about 10 degrees over about an hour while waiting on an accident to get cleaned up. Std 4 core radiator, '73 HD 7 blade clutch fan, properly shrouded. At about 2000rpm, if I stand in front of the grill with a loose fitting, untucked T-shirt on, it'll get sucked up to the grill. Works like a champ. It certainly is the cheaper route to go, and it's been working for 30+ years. Now, an electric fan and/or elec water pump is especially nice when you shut the engine off and want to cool down sooner. Don wrote: I'm with you on this one Steve, I plan on replacing my radiator & fan next year but I'm really not sure how to go. I was originally planning on an aluminum radiator with two high efficiency electric fans & maybe even an electric water pump. But having heard so many swear by a standard 4 core radiator & a clutch fan set up I'm not sure what to do.It seems to me that the electric would work better especially at slow speeds/in traffic, but that's not what everyone seems to be saying is the case.Don I have read & heard several places now where manual fans work better than electric. I have even heard of guys dumping a several hundred dollar electric fan setup to go back to a manual fan. I am just having trouble understanding why .when you consider that in MOST cases temperature will go up only when sitting in traffic or otherwise going too slow for air to be forced through the radiator.Now, when you are sitting in traffic...or going slow ..you are mostly relying on the fan to pull air through the radiator to keep your engine cool. A manual fan is turning at a rate that is relative to the engine RPM's. This is when your engine RPM's are at their lowest .and theoretically the fan would be pulling the least amount of air through at the lower RPM's. With electric fanswhen the temp went up high enough to kick the thermal switch on, the fans would be turning at a high rate of speed and, in my mind at least, be pulling much more air through the radiator than a manual fan could at a low idle.I must be dense. I mean I know this is one situation where the cheaper way is best .but I am having troubles understanding why! -- Check out my webpage at http://www.ProStreetCar.com and my For Sale page at http://www.ProStreetCar.com/classifieds.html TREMEC Distributor at http://www.5speedTransmissions.com Team Chevelle member #1778 (Gold), ACES member #1377
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic..
Hi Larry, Click this link, http://www.spal-usa.com/html/dampframe.htm then click "fans" then click "relay harnesses" and you should find what you're looking for. cYa- Herb Lumpp1966 El CaminoACES 3509, MCC 528http://users.adelphia.net/~hlump/ - Original Message - From: Larry Brown To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic.. I have an electric fan that I bought from ebay... just not sure how to hook it up.. Does anyone know of a kit for the electronic stuff... Larry 65 Chevelle Sled...
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual
>Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:40:30 -0500 >From: Michael Pell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual > >I think the reason is simply that the 7 blade clutch fan, shrouded >appropriately, pulls a LOT of air. > >Believe it or not, my 468ci COOLS DOWN when sitting in traffic. Go >figure. It dropped about 10 degrees over about an hour while waiting on >an accident to get cleaned up. Std 4 core radiator, '73 HD 7 blade >clutch fan, properly shrouded. What this says is that your cooling system is more than adequate for the task. I've run into a lot of people who think replacing a mechanical fan with 1 or more electric fans will be the answer when the real problem is a cooling system incapable of doing the job, usually because of inadequate capacity or missing/poorly-designed or matched components. >At about 2000rpm, if I stand in front of the grill with a loose fitting, >untucked T-shirt on, it'll get sucked up to the grill.Works like a >champ. At what? Scaring women, children and small animals? ;^) >Now, an electric fan and/or elec water pump is especially nice when you >shut the engine off and want to cool down sooner. For example, a drag-only car. The downside to this setup is that the electrical system has to often handle a significantly larger load. Brad - To Unsubscribe please visit www.chevelles.net/list.html To start a new topic, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual : While where on this topic..
I have an electric fan that I bought from ebay... just not sure how to hook it up.. Does anyone know of a kit for the electronic stuff... Larry 65 Chevelle Sled... - Original Message - From: Michael Pell To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual I think the reason is simply that the 7 blade clutch fan, shrouded appropriately, pulls a LOT of air. Believe it or not, my 468ci COOLS DOWN when sitting in traffic. Go figure. It dropped about 10 degrees over about an hour while waiting on an accident to get cleaned up. Std 4 core radiator, '73 HD 7 blade clutch fan, properly shrouded. At about 2000rpm, if I stand in front of the grill with a loose fitting, untucked T-shirt on, it'll get sucked up to the grill. Works like a champ. It certainly is the cheaper route to go, and it's been working for 30+ years. Now, an electric fan and/or elec water pump is especially nice when you shut the engine off and want to cool down sooner. Don wrote: I'm with you on this one Steve, I plan on replacing my radiator & fan next year but I'm really not sure how to go. I was originally planning on an aluminum radiator with two high efficiency electric fans & maybe even an electric water pump. But having heard so many swear by a standard 4 core radiator & a clutch fan set up I'm not sure what to do.It seems to me that the electric would work better especially at slow speeds/in traffic, but that's not what everyone seems to be saying is the case.Don I have read & heard several places now where manual fans work better than electric. I have even heard of guys dumping a several hundred dollar electric fan setup to go back to a manual fan. I am just having trouble understanding why .when you consider that in MOST cases temperature will go up only when sitting in traffic or otherwise going too slow for air to be forced through the radiator.Now, when you are sitting in traffic...or going slow ..you are mostly relying on the fan to pull air through the radiator to keep your engine cool. A manual fan is turning at a rate that is relative to the engine RPM's. This is when your engine RPM's are at their lowest .and theoretically the fan would be pulling the least amount of air through at the lower RPM's. With electric fanswhen the temp went up high enough to kick the thermal switch on, the fans would be turning at a high rate of speed and, in my mind at least, be pulling much more air through the radiator than a manual fan could at a low idle.I must be dense. I mean I know this is one situation where the cheaper way is best .but I am having troubles understanding why! -- Check out my webpage at http://www.ProStreetCar.com and my For Sale page at http://www.ProStreetCar.com/classifieds.html TREMEC Distributor at http://www.5speedTransmissions.com Team Chevelle member #1778 (Gold), ACES member #1377
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual
I think the reason is simply that the 7 blade clutch fan, shrouded appropriately, pulls a LOT of air. Believe it or not, my 468ci COOLS DOWN when sitting in traffic. Go figure. It dropped about 10 degrees over about an hour while waiting on an accident to get cleaned up. Std 4 core radiator, '73 HD 7 blade clutch fan, properly shrouded. At about 2000rpm, if I stand in front of the grill with a loose fitting, untucked T-shirt on, it'll get sucked up to the grill. Works like a champ. It certainly is the cheaper route to go, and it's been working for 30+ years. Now, an electric fan and/or elec water pump is especially nice when you shut the engine off and want to cool down sooner. Don wrote: I'm with you on this one Steve, I plan on replacing my radiator & fan next year but I'm really not sure how to go. I was originally planning on an aluminum radiator with two high efficiency electric fans & maybe even an electric water pump. But having heard so many swear by a standard 4 core radiator & a clutch fan set up I'm not sure what to do.It seems to me that the electric would work better especially at slow speeds/in traffic, but that's not what everyone seems to be saying is the case.Don I have read & heard several places now where manual fans work better than electric. I have even heard of guys dumping a several hundred dollar electric fan setup to go back to a manual fan. I am just having trouble understanding why .when you consider that in MOST cases temperature will go up only when sitting in traffic or otherwise going too slow for air to be forced through the radiator.Now, when you are sitting in traffic...or going slow ..you are mostly relying on the fan to pull air through the radiator to keep your engine cool. A manual fan is turning at a rate that is relative to the engine RPM's. This is when your engine RPM's are at their lowest .and theoretically the fan would be pulling the least amount of air through at the lower RPM's. With electric fanswhen the temp went up high enough to kick the thermal switch on, the fans would be turning at a high rate of speed and, in my mind at least, be pulling much more air through the radiator than a manual fan could at a low idle.I must be dense. I mean I know this is one situation where the cheaper way is best .but I am having troubles understanding why! -- Check out my webpage at http://www.ProStreetCar.com and my For Sale page at http://www.ProStreetCar.com/classifieds.html TREMEC Distributor at http://www.5speedTransmissions.com Team Chevelle member #1778 (Gold), ACES member #1377
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature- Electric vs Manual
Title: Message I'm with you on this one Steve, I plan on replacing my radiator & fan next year but I'm really not sure how to go. I was originally planning on an aluminum radiator with two high efficiency electric fans & maybe even an electric water pump. But having heard so many swear by a standard 4 core radiator & a clutch fan set up I'm not sure what to do. It seems to me that the electric would work better especially at slow speeds/in traffic, but that's not what everyone seems to be saying is the case. Don I have read & heard several places now where manual fans work better than electric. I have even heard of guys dumping a several hundred dollar electric fan setup to go back to a manual fan. I am just having trouble understanding why .when you consider that in MOST cases temperature will go up only when sitting in traffic or otherwise going too slow for air to be forced through the radiator. Now, when you are sitting in traffic...or going slow ..you are mostly relying on the fan to pull air through the radiator to keep your engine cool. A manual fan is turning at a rate that is relative to the engine RPM's. This is when your engine RPM's are at their lowest .and theoretically the fan would be pulling the least amount of air through at the lower RPM's. With electric fanswhen the temp went up high enough to kick the thermal switch on, the fans would be turning at a high rate of speed and, in my mind at least, be pulling much more air through the radiator than a manual fan could at a low idle. I must be dense. I mean I know this is one situation where the cheaper way is best .but I am having troubles understanding why!
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature
I agree, flex fans suck. Rodney. 71 Chevelle El Mirage, AZ - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature stay away from flex fans. a good clutch fan, 4 core radiator and a 180 degree thermostat keeps my 454 running at 190 and creeps up to 210 in traffic in the summer heat and HUMIDITY of New Jersey.Tom
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature
I run a flex fan in my 66 chevelle with a 454. Runs at 180, and in traffic when its hot, it goes up to 200 or so -Tim 1966 Chevelle
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature
stay away from flex fans. a good clutch fan, 4 core radiator and a 180 degree thermostat keeps my 454 running at 190 and creeps up to 210 in traffic in the summer heat and HUMIDITY of New Jersey. Tom
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature
Well, I just put my 350 in with a 4 core rad and electric fans, so I don't know what it's gonna run in the summers yet, but in the summers with the previous 307, 2 core rad, and flex fan I would run around 195-205 in traffic and it'd shoot up to 215-220 on the freeway (usually closer to 215 the slower I went (60 MPH)). I did overheat once on the way to Yuma. I pulled over when it got up to 230. That was beyond my comfort level. Ended up being a thermostat that was stuck closed. No head gasket damage though. I did end up overheating once though right before I was going to do the engine swap and I was about a mile from home. I went ahead and drove it home. When I got it home the rad. was bone dry and my temp. gauge had peaked for that last mile. I figured I was swapping engines anyway, so i wasn't worried about damage, I just wanted to get home. That eneded up being a leak in the hose that I didn't catch soon enough and all the coolant had leaked out on the way home. Rodney. 71 Chevelle El Mirage, AZ - Original Message - From: "Tim Moebes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 1:06 PM Subject: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature > Gents, > > I'm changing the subject of this thread because I had my main question > answered and because I suspect my sub-question will continue to be debated. > > Smitty, I appreciate your input, but I simply can't believe that anything > over 200 is dangerous. Perhaps you were running straight water with a low > pressure cap. I drove my Elky down from Seattle to Tucson in May with just > the warning light, and it came on once while stuck in Las Vegas traffic. It > was hot that afternoon. I never lost coolant with the pressure cap (16 lb) > and I do not have a cracked head or blown head gasket. The car ran fine > cruising on the highway and it still does (great with the HEI distributor I > put in down here.) > > When I arrived in Tucson, I put the gauge in and noted that in the heat of > the day it would run at 230, way too hot, and more when stopped at a light. > But that experience told me that the warning light probably didn't come on > until 240 or 245. Why would it: you won't begin to lose coolant until what, > 250? I never did. > > The aluminum crossflow rad I installed brought temps down 20 or more > degrees. > > I agree that sustained high-speed driving at elevated temperatures is hard > on the engine. I simply want input on what that point is. Perhaps more > directly, I suppose I need information from other desert dwellers how hot > their vehicles run under load in the heat of the day. This information will > let me decide whether I need a high-flow water pump or other improvements. I > haven't had the chance to seek out the local car clubs, but that is probably > where I should look. > > Finally, I simply refuse to believe given my experience that the venerable > 283 is as delicate as Smitty warns. A 20-degree operating range is absurd > for an engine rebuilt with late-80s head gasket technology. Or so I hope. > :-) > > Respectfully, > Tim Moebes > 66 El Camino > - To Unsubscribe please visit www.chevelles.net/list.html To start a new topic, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature
Thanks, Steve. It sounds like my 283 is somewhere between your two vehicles. The new rad helped a lot. I'll try the Redline Water Wetter. Another 10 degrees is about all I'm looking for. Cheers, Tim. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Stephen Lentz Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature Tim, I live in Mesa, AZ. It is a little warmer here than in Tucson. My 70 has a 454 in it. It is a bored 30-over LS5 with a LS6 cam. I am running a regular clutch fan and am using a regular four-core radiator built for me by a commercial truck company (my dad's a trucker and the radiator was like $175.00). My car runs through metro Phoenix (mostly the east valley) all day in the summer without breaking 200 degrees. It usually holds steady at 195 and will only walk to 200 if I am stuck in rush hour. My 67 GTO, on the other hand, has a stock 300 horse 350 Chevy in it with thermostat controlled dual electric fans. I have done everything to make it run cooler but the darn thing usually runs up to 210 just by showing it a picture of a hot summer day...in traffic it runs up into the 230's. I just don't get it. Everybody I talk to around here always complains about how hot the big blocks run in the desert. I have the opposite problem. Well anyway, I don't know how to help you. I guess it comes down to how well the engine is built and what steps you take to provide reliable cooling. I have never built a motor myself so I don't know what to do inside; however, I would research and buy the coolest running radiator, use the proper ratio of coolant-to-water, flush the radiator regularly, ALWAYS use reverse osmosis mineral free water (because our tap water in the desert here is chocked full of nasty contaminants and minerals), and go to an auto parts store and get some of that red-line coolant additive that is guaranteed to drop you temperature by at least 10 degrees...it worked on the GTO and I will put it in the Chevelle now that I just forked out a lot of $$$ to put aluminum Eldebrock heads and intake on the car. You can never be too careful. P.S. Spend the money and get a good gauge kit if your car has idiot lights. Bulbs burn out. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Moebes Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 1:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature Gents, I'm changing the subject of this thread because I had my main question answered and because I suspect my sub-question will continue to be debated. Smitty, I appreciate your input, but I simply can't believe that anything over 200 is dangerous. Perhaps you were running straight water with a low pressure cap. I drove my Elky down from Seattle to Tucson in May with just the warning light, and it came on once while stuck in Las Vegas traffic. It was hot that afternoon. I never lost coolant with the pressure cap (16 lb) and I do not have a cracked head or blown head gasket. The car ran fine cruising on the highway and it still does (great with the HEI distributor I put in down here.) When I arrived in Tucson, I put the gauge in and noted that in the heat of the day it would run at 230, way too hot, and more when stopped at a light. But that experience told me that the warning light probably didn't come on until 240 or 245. Why would it: you won't begin to lose coolant until what, 250? I never did. The aluminum crossflow rad I installed brought temps down 20 or more degrees. I agree that sustained high-speed driving at elevated temperatures is hard on the engine. I simply want input on what that point is. Perhaps more directly, I suppose I need information from other desert dwellers how hot their vehicles run under load in the heat of the day. This information will let me decide whether I need a high-flow water pump or other improvements. I haven't had the chance to seek out the local car clubs, but that is probably where I should look. Finally, I simply refuse to believe given my experience that the venerable 283 is as delicate as Smitty warns. A 20-degree operating range is absurd for an engine rebuilt with late-80s head gasket technology. Or so I hope. :-) Respectfully, Tim Moebes 66 El Camino -Original Message- Dan and Tom. I've owned many a chevelle and the 283 called for a 180 degree Thermostat. If your temp goes over 200 you could have boiling and steam, this a warning to stop and let your enigine cool down. We use to leave the engine running and spray water into the front of the Radiator until she cooled down enough to get the Rad. cap off (NEVER add water to a HOT engine with the motor turned OFF, This will surely crack you block), covering the cap to keep from getting yourself burnt, then we would add water to top her
RE: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature
Tim, I live in Mesa, AZ. It is a little warmer here than in Tucson. My 70 has a 454 in it. It is a bored 30-over LS5 with a LS6 cam. I am running a regular clutch fan and am using a regular four-core radiator built for me by a commercial truck company (my dad's a trucker and the radiator was like $175.00). My car runs through metro Phoenix (mostly the east valley) all day in the summer without breaking 200 degrees. It usually holds steady at 195 and will only walk to 200 if I am stuck in rush hour. My 67 GTO, on the other hand, has a stock 300 horse 350 Chevy in it with thermostat controlled dual electric fans. I have done everything to make it run cooler but the darn thing usually runs up to 210 just by showing it a picture of a hot summer day...in traffic it runs up into the 230's. I just don't get it. Everybody I talk to around here always complains about how hot the big blocks run in the desert. I have the opposite problem. Well anyway, I don't know how to help you. I guess it comes down to how well the engine is built and what steps you take to provide reliable cooling. I have never built a motor myself so I don't know what to do inside; however, I would research and buy the coolest running radiator, use the proper ratio of coolant-to-water, flush the radiator regularly, ALWAYS use reverse osmosis mineral free water (because our tap water in the desert here is chocked full of nasty contaminants and minerals), and go to an auto parts store and get some of that red-line coolant additive that is guaranteed to drop you temperature by at least 10 degrees...it worked on the GTO and I will put it in the Chevelle now that I just forked out a lot of $$$ to put aluminum Eldebrock heads and intake on the car. You can never be too careful. P.S. Spend the money and get a good gauge kit if your car has idiot lights. Bulbs burn out. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Moebes Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 1:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature Gents, I'm changing the subject of this thread because I had my main question answered and because I suspect my sub-question will continue to be debated. Smitty, I appreciate your input, but I simply can't believe that anything over 200 is dangerous. Perhaps you were running straight water with a low pressure cap. I drove my Elky down from Seattle to Tucson in May with just the warning light, and it came on once while stuck in Las Vegas traffic. It was hot that afternoon. I never lost coolant with the pressure cap (16 lb) and I do not have a cracked head or blown head gasket. The car ran fine cruising on the highway and it still does (great with the HEI distributor I put in down here.) When I arrived in Tucson, I put the gauge in and noted that in the heat of the day it would run at 230, way too hot, and more when stopped at a light. But that experience told me that the warning light probably didn't come on until 240 or 245. Why would it: you won't begin to lose coolant until what, 250? I never did. The aluminum crossflow rad I installed brought temps down 20 or more degrees. I agree that sustained high-speed driving at elevated temperatures is hard on the engine. I simply want input on what that point is. Perhaps more directly, I suppose I need information from other desert dwellers how hot their vehicles run under load in the heat of the day. This information will let me decide whether I need a high-flow water pump or other improvements. I haven't had the chance to seek out the local car clubs, but that is probably where I should look. Finally, I simply refuse to believe given my experience that the venerable 283 is as delicate as Smitty warns. A 20-degree operating range is absurd for an engine rebuilt with late-80s head gasket technology. Or so I hope. :-) Respectfully, Tim Moebes 66 El Camino -Original Message- Dan and Tom. I've owned many a chevelle and the 283 called for a 180 degree Thermostat. If your temp goes over 200 you could have boiling and steam, this a warning to stop and let your enigine cool down. We use to leave the engine running and spray water into the front of the Radiator until she cooled down enough to get the Rad. cap off (NEVER add water to a HOT engine with the motor turned OFF, This will surely crack you block), covering the cap to keep from getting yourself burnt, then we would add water to top her off. You reach the 220 mark and you've cooked the head gasket and probably cracked a head as well. Hope this will help, Smitty in SC - To Unsubscribe please visit www.chevelles.net/list.html To start a new topic, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.426 / Virus Database: 239 - Release Date: 12/2/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certifie
Re: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature
Tim, Something else to consider is that you don't necessarily want water flowing fast through the radiator. If it goes to fast, the coolant is not staying in the rad. long enough to transfer any heat out of it. I suppose this is where a larger rad. would come into play, as it would have a greater surface area to allow greater heat dissipation. I'm sure that somewhere there is a rule of thumb about water flow VS. volume VS. operating temperature. If not, it would be great if someone like Super Chevy would do an article on it. So I'm not saying that a high volume pump will not help, just that it will not always help. Take it easy. Dan McIntosh 64 Impala SS - Original Message - From: "Tim Moebes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 3:06 PM Subject: [Chevelle-List] Operating temperature "This information will let me decide whether I need a high-flow water pump or other improvements." - To Unsubscribe please visit www.chevelles.net/list.html To start a new topic, send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
