[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)

[nakro]

Xiaomei, i have reported these issues

http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13215
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13216
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13217
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[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)

[Xiaomei Ji]

Hi Yoav,

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:42 PM, nakro  wrote:

>
> *sigh*  i wrote such a splendid reply but chrome entered one of
> his moods and refused to pop out of the taskbar
>
> here is the much shorter version :
> tell your friend at FF that at least on 3.0.10 the Ctrl+right shift do
> not work (try www.google.com and see in the edit control)
> also, i failed to see the logic in his reasoning for why visual
> selection is a bad thing
> if you are located anywhere in a text, and you press SHIFT + LEFT,
> when is it ever a bad idea
> to take the char to your left ? never! really never (even if you
> imagine numbers or other things)



At the very beginning of the email, he mentioned that "This question 
does not have a definite "right" answer.".

I think shift+arrow follows logical order is because it is a selection
operation, which often used for cut/copy/paste, in which, it makes sense to
copy the text that are logically(not visually) continuous together.

There is a chrome bug related to shift+arrow. There
are some native speakers who actively working/commenting on the bug. From
the bug (and its related bugs) history, looks like logical order is what
they are expecting as well.

Again, both Uri and the IBM document mentioned selection could follow visual
or logical order.

And Chrome could provide a toggle between visual order and logical order,
like what Firefox does. But I do not think we are in that stage yet.



>
> nvm,
>
> as for chrome, just one example :
> if you download a file (3.0.183.0 (17405)‬)  with hebrew UI
> you will see the localized version of "this file could harm" but
> the buttons are to the right of this message
> which would seem awkward but maybe you thought it was a good
> thing, do you have some design doc about
> how you wanted RTL to look ?


I think that is a bug. Could you please kindly file a bug?
If you think Chrome does not work correctly in any case, you could file a
bug. And it is helpful to file bug with concrete information (you can search
the bugs xlyuan filed for reference).

Chrome is still improving its quality in RTL languages, and we might
overlooked some issues before.
If there is doubt on whether the bug you filed is a bug or not, we can
discuss it.

We do have a UI mirroring infrastructure design
doc,
which focused mostly on how Chrome implement its UI mirroring in windows.



>
> another example, still in that area, in the DL shelf, the "pie chart"
> grows CW (good!) and in the download tab (Ctrl+J)
> it shows it CCW (not to mention that the file is displayed in the
> middle of the text between the DL speed and size funny!)
> but which one did you think is the more "correct" behavior ? CW ?
> CCW ? anyways it has to be consistent


I agree that it should be consistent.
But I am not sure which way is more intuitive to native speakers.
Could you please kindly file a bug?
There are some experienced/knowledgeable native speaker developers, and
there are some native speakers actively working with us to improve Chrome's
quality. We can discuss the desired behavior in the bug.



>
>
> i would actually like to code all these fixes myself, because i am
> quite excited about chrome programming
> but how does one know which way you ppl decided is the right way ?


We'd love if you could contribute.
As I mentioned before, we have talented and passionate native speakers in
chromium community. The best way to start contribute is to file bug with
concrete information, and *we* (not only chrome programmer) can discuss the
right solution. It is always a good idea to track issues down, and tackle
them one by one.

Thanks,
Xiaomei



>
>
> >
>

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[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)

[Jeremy Moskovich]

If you post a link to a bug that describes a single, concrete, narrowly
defined issue along with a proposed solution we can discuss that.

I understand you see allot of stuff you want to fix, which is great.  But if
you continue to post messages that contain a bunch of different issues mixed
together it's very hard to have any kind of meaningful discussion.

My comment about the importance of fixing more fundamental existing bugs
stands.

Best regards,
Jeremy

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:42 PM, nakro  wrote:

>
> *sigh*  i wrote such a splendid reply but chrome entered one of
> his moods and refused to pop out of the taskbar
>
> here is the much shorter version :
> tell your friend at FF that at least on 3.0.10 the Ctrl+right shift do
> not work (try www.google.com and see in the edit control)
> also, i failed to see the logic in his reasoning for why visual
> selection is a bad thing
> if you are located anywhere in a text, and you press SHIFT + LEFT,
> when is it ever a bad idea
> to take the char to your left ? never! really never (even if you
> imagine numbers or other things)
>
> nvm,
>
> as for chrome, just one example :
> if you download a file (3.0.183.0 (17405)‬)  with hebrew UI
> you will see the localized version of "this file could harm" but
> the buttons are to the right of this message
> which would seem awkward but maybe you thought it was a good
> thing, do you have some design doc about
> how you wanted RTL to look ?
> another example, still in that area, in the DL shelf, the "pie chart"
> grows CW (good!) and in the download tab (Ctrl+J)
> it shows it CCW (not to mention that the file is displayed in the
> middle of the text between the DL speed and size funny!)
> but which one did you think is the more "correct" behavior ? CW ?
> CCW ? anyways it has to be consistent
>
> i would actually like to code all these fixes myself, because i am
> quite excited about chrome programming
> but how does one know which way you ppl decided is the right way ?
>
> >
>

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[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)

[nakro]

*sigh*  i wrote such a splendid reply but chrome entered one of
his moods and refused to pop out of the taskbar

here is the much shorter version :
tell your friend at FF that at least on 3.0.10 the Ctrl+right shift do
not work (try www.google.com and see in the edit control)
also, i failed to see the logic in his reasoning for why visual
selection is a bad thing
if you are located anywhere in a text, and you press SHIFT + LEFT,
when is it ever a bad idea
to take the char to your left ? never! really never (even if you
imagine numbers or other things)

nvm,

as for chrome, just one example :
if you download a file (3.0.183.0 (17405)‬)  with hebrew UI
you will see the localized version of "this file could harm" but
the buttons are to the right of this message
which would seem awkward but maybe you thought it was a good
thing, do you have some design doc about
how you wanted RTL to look ?
another example, still in that area, in the DL shelf, the "pie chart"
grows CW (good!) and in the download tab (Ctrl+J)
it shows it CCW (not to mention that the file is displayed in the
middle of the text between the DL speed and size funny!)
but which one did you think is the more "correct" behavior ? CW ?
CCW ? anyways it has to be consistent

i would actually like to code all these fixes myself, because i am
quite excited about chrome programming
but how does one know which way you ppl decided is the right way ?

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[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)

[Mark Larson (Google)]

Yoav, I'm glad to hear you're interested in helping make Chromium better!

The best way to get started is to get specific broken behaviors documented
as bugs and then work on fixing the bugs.
We already have a lot on file:
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/list?can=2&q=label:RTL

The label
"RTL" is used
to label most BiDi and RTL bugs. We'd welcome all the help we can get
to fix these, especially Xiomei
(xji@) who's been doing a lot of work on this in Chromium and WebKit
recently.

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 09:44, Jeremy Moskovich  wrote:

> There are quite a few thorny corner cases around BiDi editing and cursor
> movement, I don't think there's any point in having a discussion about this
> stuff unless we have a handle on what we want to fix and exactly how we plan
> to fix it.
>
> Also, IMHO, it would be better to iron out some of the basic BiDi bugs in
> Chrome & WebKit before embarking on this stuff.
>
> Best regards,
> Jeremy
>
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Dan Kegel wrote:
>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:21 AM, nakro  wrote:
>> > יואב Zilberberg הוא  123 but!!! אולי
>> > ... i encourage you to select with the mouse the text and
>> > see how windows behaves
>>
>> It's not just Windows.  Firefox on Linux does this, too.
>> And I suspect Mac applications also behave this way.
>>
>> If we were to implement a visual (rather than the standard,
>> sequential character)-oriented select, we'd better make it
>> an option that's off by default,
>> because people are going to get severe vertigo switching
>> back and forth between the normal, standard select behavior and
>> our special one.
>> - Dan
>>
>>
>>
>
> >
>

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[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)

[Jeremy Moskovich]

There are quite a few thorny corner cases around BiDi editing and cursor
movement, I don't think there's any point in having a discussion about this
stuff unless we have a handle on what we want to fix and exactly how we plan
to fix it.

Also, IMHO, it would be better to iron out some of the basic BiDi bugs in
Chrome & WebKit before embarking on this stuff.

Best regards,
Jeremy

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Dan Kegel  wrote:

>
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:21 AM, nakro  wrote:
> > יואב Zilberberg הוא  123 but!!! אולי
> > ... i encourage you to select with the mouse the text and
> > see how windows behaves
>
> It's not just Windows.  Firefox on Linux does this, too.
> And I suspect Mac applications also behave this way.
>
> If we were to implement a visual (rather than the standard,
> sequential character)-oriented select, we'd better make it
> an option that's off by default,
> because people are going to get severe vertigo switching
> back and forth between the normal, standard select behavior and
> our special one.
> - Dan
>
> >
>

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[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)

[Dan Kegel]

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:21 AM, nakro  wrote:
> יואב Zilberberg הוא  123 but!!! אולי
> ... i encourage you to select with the mouse the text and
> see how windows behaves

It's not just Windows.  Firefox on Linux does this, too.
And I suspect Mac applications also behave this way.

If we were to implement a visual (rather than the standard,
sequential character)-oriented select, we'd better make it
an option that's off by default,
because people are going to get severe vertigo switching
back and forth between the normal, standard select behavior and
our special one.
- Dan

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[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)

[nakro]

hey jeremy, i hope this text below would come out right

יואב Zilberberg הוא  123 but!!! אולי

even if you cut & paste the below to notepad (assuming you have a
hebrew keyb support)
you will see that the caret in windows itself moves in a crazy way

since i am a programmer for a long time i know the reason for it (also
in my prog career got
a chance to talk to MS ppl and they hate it too ... there is a rumor
that will bill gates
saw what they did with hebrew he nearly killed those programmers)

but just travel with the cursor on this text and you will see the joke
in windows itself

i thought it would be very cool if chrome and other google products
would support a Sane hebrew
(cold also be a huge benefit for chrome, making RTL right!)

regardless, once i get the builds of chrome right, i will move to fix
hebrew bugs in chrome
just thought it would be cool to get it ALL right
and you must have some native hebrew/arab speaking ppl in chrome
ask them what they think of the "native" windows support

and once again, i encourage you to select with the mouse the text and
see how windows behaves

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[chromium-dev] Re: a brave new world for RTL languages (please comment)

[Jeremy Moskovich]

Hi Yoav,
In general it would be much easier to have a discussion if you could refer
to a specific narrowly-focused bug in your email.  Just saying that an area
is generally broken it's hard to understand what specific aspect you're
talking about.

So: What exact functionality is broken, and how do you propose to fix it?

Also, I think there are currently many more important (and far easier) bugs
in Chrome/WebKit around BiDi support, perhaps it would make sense to look at
those first.  Some notable low hanging fruit:

https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3710 - Directional caret support.
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19785 - Select doesn't work right
for dir=rtl.

So to try to address your email:

Chrome has (to my knowledge) 2 types of controls:
1) Native OS controls - OmniBox, the Find bar, etc.
2) Controls drawn by WebKit - basically all controls that are part of a Web
Page.

Regarding #1 - Native OS controls:

Keep in mind that there are platform conventions for how native controls
behave, I'd be concerned with confusing users.

Regarding #2 - WebKit controls:

While there are still some open bugs around caret movement and drawing in
WebKit controls, much of the current behavior reflects explicit design
decisions.  If you think this functionality is broken, it might be good to
look at the WebKit bug database to see if there's already a bug open around
the issue you want to fix.  If there is you might want to leave a comment in
the bug with a proposed fix.

A final thought:
Getting BiDi cursor movement correct is non-trivial, there are no standards
in this area and many corner cases.

Best regards,
Jeremy

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:47 AM, nakro  wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> this post will only make sense to those who speak hebrew or arabic
> as you know, the selection in windows of text in a mixed hebrew
> english text is at best a joke
> nobody understands it natively, and the cursor (caret in windows
> jargon) movement is
> also very awkward (right goes left, left goes right you know what
> i mean)
>
> my point is this
> if i get it right (i did debug chrome for the last 2 weeks)
> you seem to have written your own controls,
> so why not do it right this time for the entire arab/hebrew world ?
>
> since you anyways use UTF16 and you it has all the "chars" neccessary
> (the change direction
> and pop direction and the like)
>
> wouldn't it be great if chrome would make RTL the way it should have
> been ?
>
> i would be happy to do it myself, i have all the knowledge to do it in
> windows
> but i, of course, am still kinda new to chrome so i would prob need
> some help in doing it
>
> also, if you like this idea, there needs to be someone who can help me
> with the arabic part
>
> this is a huge task, to be sure, but i think it would be worth doing,
> especially that the hebrew support in windows
> has been really bad for years (don't know how mac/linux handle it)
>
> so any thoughts will be welcome, you can also say "NO, Thank you" and
> that would also be cool
>
> >
>

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