Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Richard Spindler]

2008/1/20, Herman Robak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>   Are you interested in working within a small group (if there are any
> takers for the rest of the sub-items) dedicated to related tasks?
>
>   The reason those sub-items are grouped as one point is that they
> would benefit from a common protocol.  If Cinelerra supports one
> such protocol it takes less code to add a new gizmo interface.

I will just add some clarification about how I think some of those
tasks are related.

The "Jack-Transport Problem" and the "Jog-Dial Scrubbing Problem" are
probably only related from a User-Interface Point of view, rather than
from a technical/implementation POV. I think that those tasks can be
tackled independently, and any solution is likely very valuable on its
own. :-)

Just for those that are not up to date what "Jack-Transport" is. It is
an API that is designed to Syncronize Timeline or Time based
applications to a "common clock". Example: if I seek in the Video
Editor to timestamp 00:10:00, then the Audio Editor will automagically
seek to that point to.

And since a "Scrub-Wheel" controls the "Seek-Point" too, this is
somehow related. But again, it can be implemented independently and
seperately.

And of course there are a lot of things that can be controlled from
hardware boxes, that or not much releated to "Scrubbing". Just think
about matching hardware-knobs to plugin parameters, for easier
manipulation. Again, this Problem, while related can be tackled
independently and individually, it is useful on its own, it doesn't
require to much communication overhead and coordination issues with
potential team-members, which is good, because not everyone works at
the same pace, and by being able to work indpendently, those who are
slower are not holding those that work more rapid back. So everyone
will be happy. :-) Ideally. ;-)

Cheers, and have fun
-Richard

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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Herman Robak]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:41:20 +0100, Sam Arthur Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



Hello list,

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 03:35:36 +0100
"Herman Robak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

...

  Are there any takers for any of those items?  Those who are making
research and prototypes may also apply.


Sure, from the above URL I'm happy to work on problem #5


Great!

For the benefit of the lazy, here's point #5:

"Problem #5: Simple Control Protocol, most likely OSC, because it is
widely used in the Audio Community. Jack-Transport for Playback
Syncronization.
  Subproblems:
  * Jog-Dial Support/Daemon over OSC?
  * Hardware-Support, Slider-Decks, Knobs, etc.
  * MIDI to OSC?"


and getting
Cinelerra to interface with MIDI. Preferably the Midibox64
http://www.ucapps.de/midibox64_tutorial.html
from www.midibox.org - while I don't have one of these myself, I have a
Technics keyboard that is fully programmable and is similar in
functionality.


 Are you interested in working within a small group (if there are any
takers for the rest of the sub-items) dedicated to related tasks?

 The reason those sub-items are grouped as one point is that they
would benefit from a common protocol.  If Cinelerra supports one
such protocol it takes less code to add a new gizmo interface.


 Now, if there are coders interested in Jog/Shuttle dials and
event/timeline signal protocols (like OSC), please speak up!

--
Herman Robak

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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Richard Spindler]

2008/1/20, Herman Robak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>   I second that.  However, I think it is useful to debate "what needs
> doing" along with "what are you willing to do".

To stir up that debate I also suggest to read what people who care
about both, Open/Free Software and about Video Editing have to say:

Jono Bacon writes at
http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1102
[QUOTE]We have been in this constant state of nearly there for a long
time, and I just wish we were actually there.[/QUOTE]

Eugenia Loli-Queru writes at:
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/01/18/vindication/
[QUOTE]it's my belief that this is a job that Red Hat or Novell or
Ubuntu must employ engineers to write, and not a disorganized
developer's community.[/QUOTE]

and at:

http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/12/03/the-linux-video-editor-situation/
[QUOTE]I've written about it many times: GNU/Linux has no usable video
editor.[/QUOTE]

While I agree to most of Eugenias highly opinionated rants, I disagree
in one point: I think that a disorganized deleopers community can pull
this stunt off.

Cheers
-Richard

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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Fred Williams wrote:

It would take some time to go into that and it's very off topic.  The
short answer is, Look at Micro$oft.  If you're really want to get into
it, see my paper, "The Secret of Money: Beyond Socialism" at:

Yes it's all off topic, If you want I can describe why I completely 
disagree to your paper directly to your private email.


bye

Paolo Rampino aka Akirad

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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Sam Arthur Allen]

Hello list,

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 03:35:36 +0100
"Herman Robak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 22:01:17 +0100, Richard Spindler  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > So, in planning this stuff the first thing to find out is who are
> > the coders, and what are they willing to do. Making big plans and
> > then expecting outsiders to jump in and start coding is an approach
> > that has proven not to work, at least as far as my experience goes.
> 
>   I second that.

I third that.

> However, I think it is useful to debate "what needs
> doing" along with "what are you willing to do".  You have already
> provided us with some points that need attention:
> https://init.linpro.no/pipermail/skolelinux.no/cinelerra/2007-November/012331.html
> 
>   Please read it.  It contains both hard and simple problems,
> both complex and mundane tasks.
> 
>   Are there any takers for any of those items?  Those who are making
> research and prototypes may also apply.
> 

Sure, from the above URL I'm happy to work on problem #5 and getting
Cinelerra to interface with MIDI. Preferably the Midibox64
http://www.ucapps.de/midibox64_tutorial.html
from www.midibox.org - while I don't have one of these myself, I have a
Technics keyboard that is fully programmable and is similar in
functionality.

As for skills, I have programmed in x86(MS-DOS) and C=64 ASM, although
I'm shifting these skills over to NASM/GCC inline ASM to make it
easier for working on PIC's, and am proficient in MIDI hardware.

Programming software in PHP/MySQL and C (although not C++) are
relatively easy, but I definately have more hardware and electrical
engineering experience up my sleeve. :)

--Sam

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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Herman Robak]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 22:01:17 +0100, Richard Spindler  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



So, in planning this stuff the first thing to find out is who are the
coders, and what are they willing to do. Making big plans and then
expecting outsiders to jump in and start coding is an approach that
has proven not to work, at least as far as my experience goes.


 I second that.  However, I think it is useful to debate "what needs
doing" along with "what are you willing to do".  You have already
provided us with some points that need attention:
https://init.linpro.no/pipermail/skolelinux.no/cinelerra/2007-November/012331.html

 Please read it.  It contains both hard and simple problems,
both complex and mundane tasks.

 Are there any takers for any of those items?  Those who are making
research and prototypes may also apply.

--
Herman Robak

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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Fred Williams]

On Sun, 2008-01-20 at 00:36 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Fred Williams write:
> >> In other words, lots of work that are a pain in the ass but has to be
> >> done in order to advance properly. And passion has a limit. There must
> >> be people getting money to work on that.
> >> 
> > I was with you up to that point.  Money is the root of all evil.  It
> > will totally corrupt the process.  If you want money go to Micro$oft and
> > develop for them.  If you don't, (and I do realise that yopu may not
> > have been referring to yourself), then why would you assume something
> > like this?  If this is to be a true cooperative effort, then let it be a
> > volunteer effort.
> >
> >   
> Is money a root of all evil??? In my opinion "many money" may be a root 
> of evil,
> if users want to pay the work of the developers.. where is the evil?
> 
> Paolo Rampino

It would take some time to go into that and it's very off topic.  The
short answer is, Look at Micro$oft.  If you're really want to get into
it, see my paper, "The Secret of Money: Beyond Socialism" at:




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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Richard Spindler]

2008/1/19, Stefan de Konink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Ok, so what needs to be done to get such a project rolling?
>
> Something like 'planning for Cine3' worked out in detail. Chunks
> everyone can implement with guidelines for it.

I am working on that one:
https://init.linpro.no/pipermail/skolelinux.no/cinelerra/2007-November/012331.html

Everyone is invited to comment and extend the list.

If someone volunteered to tackle one of those tasks, I'd be happy to
provide detailed feedback about how I think a _reusable_ solution
could look like.

Cheers
-Richard

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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Fred Williams write:

In other words, lots of work that are a pain in the ass but has to be
done in order to advance properly. And passion has a limit. There must
be people getting money to work on that.


I was with you up to that point.  Money is the root of all evil.  It
will totally corrupt the process.  If you want money go to Micro$oft and
develop for them.  If you don't, (and I do realise that yopu may not
have been referring to yourself), then why would you assume something
like this?  If this is to be a true cooperative effort, then let it be a
volunteer effort.

  
Is money a root of all evil??? In my opinion "many money" may be a root 
of evil,

if users want to pay the work of the developers.. where is the evil?

Paolo Rampino

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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Stefan de Konink]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Richard Spindler schreef:
> 2008/1/19, Fred Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Fine a wiki for the developers and a web site are good ideas.
>> Developers may come and go and getting them up to speed on the project
>> requires documentation and possibly training.  Internal communications
>> is vital and every developer should be in almost constant contact with
>> the group to make sure everybody's on the same project and knows what is
>> going on.  This synergistic culture is vital to such a team.  It's in
>> everybody's interest that all the other team members understand the
>> project perfectly.  Time spent bringing a new member up to speed is not
>> wasted.  A developer's bulletin board is essential.  Well defined
>> standard interfaces for code is also essential and design changes must
>> be tracked and approved by the core development team.  Things like that
>> ensure a solid program.
>> I could get behind a project like that.
> 
> Ok, so what needs to be done to get such a project rolling?

Something like 'planning for Cine3' worked out in detail. Chunks
everyone can implement with guidelines for it.


- From my personal perspective I'm very interested in an efficient
MLT.sf.net/Gstreamer like implementation. As I'm making live broadcast
solutions, make it so that transcoding is only required when needed,
maybe even on part of the actual image.

I know this also involves codecs stuff, but making a video suite without
codecs in mind is a suicide attempt anyway ;)



Stefan
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=NQ+y
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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Richard Spindler]

2008/1/19, Fred Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Fine a wiki for the developers and a web site are good ideas.
> Developers may come and go and getting them up to speed on the project
> requires documentation and possibly training.  Internal communications
> is vital and every developer should be in almost constant contact with
> the group to make sure everybody's on the same project and knows what is
> going on.  This synergistic culture is vital to such a team.  It's in
> everybody's interest that all the other team members understand the
> project perfectly.  Time spent bringing a new member up to speed is not
> wasted.  A developer's bulletin board is essential.  Well defined
> standard interfaces for code is also essential and design changes must
> be tracked and approved by the core development team.  Things like that
> ensure a solid program.
> I could get behind a project like that.

Ok, so what needs to be done to get such a project rolling?

The following is my opinion, and of course everyone is free to argue
otherwise. ;-)

When "planning" a project, I prefer to make an Assessment of the
resources that I have available first, because I somehow like to be
realistic about what really "can" be done instead of building castles
out of air and then being disappointed that it did not work out.

So, this "Project" seems to be about "Code", programming code and
such. So, while there is certainly a lot of code already out there
that can be reused, someone has to fit it together and someone has to
fill in the missing parts. So this project will involve coding. So we
need "Coders". This is how open source projects work, they need
coders. There are many people with ideas, but someone has to code it
and generally, those people are a scarce resource.

So, in planning this stuff the first thing to find out is who are the
coders, and what are they willing to do. Making big plans and then
expecting outsiders to jump in and start coding is an approach that
has proven not to work, at least as far as my experience goes.

Maybe at one point outsiders will come and start contributing, but for
that to happen, a solid core is needed, something that is of value to
contributors.

And btw. I also believe that making plans that reach too far into the
future are very, very risky, especially if one relies on volunteers.
Better make a small proposal for a well defined problem, for which a
solution is immediatly useful. Then try to get it solved as fast as
possible, before people loose interest, and then try to "infect" as
many peer groups as possible with the solution to create an
"eco-system" where the solution can sustain itself.

Then fit that part into the big picture, and move on to the next
little puzzle part.

So, I am volunteering to do stuff, who else is?

Cheers
-Richard

PS.: the discussion is distributed among the following mailinglist, so
check the archives:
https://www.bek.no/mailman/listinfo/piksel
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra


-- 
Are you teaching the What and the How but without the Why and the When?

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Re: [CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Fred Williams]

On Sat, 2008-01-19 at 19:34 +0100, Richard Spindler wrote:
> -- Forwarded message --

> The Plan
> 
> 1. Get the community together
> 
> The community of developers today is very small and spread, and
> cinelerra has no road map.
> 
> First thing to do is gather this people to discuss about the future of
> cinelerra, identify the main flaws and its solution, make a plan to
> organize the place and set up for new features.
> 
> Cinelerra needs a project leader, an interface designer, and more
> people with defined roles that should be choosen on this meeting.
> 
> Developers of other softwares are also welcome. Cinelerra is, so far,
> the only video free editing video editing software with professional
> approach, but it could share a lot of things with other software, such
> as effects, for example, that shoul be usable in any video software,
> just like we have LADSPA for audio. There is already a video effect
> standar called Frei0r that cinelerra does not support.
> 
> 
> 2. Diagnostics
> 
> Cinelerra code is not very well documented, so few people have the
> idea of how tuff is to deal with it. Second step is to see what must
> be done so we can invite more people to colaborate with the code.
> Documentation, refactoring, etc. It also has to work on the API so
> other people can write plugins and effects.
> 
> In other words, lots of work that are a pain in the ass but has to be
> done in order to advance properly. And passion has a limit. There must
> be people getting money to work on that.
> 
I was with you up to that point.  Money is the root of all evil.  It
will totally corrupt the process.  If you want money go to Micro$oft and
develop for them.  If you don't, (and I do realise that yopu may not
have been referring to yourself), then why would you assume something
like this?  If this is to be a true cooperative effort, then let it be a
volunteer effort.

> 
> 3. Make a plan
> 
>  Based on the diagnostics and on researches with users and other video
> editing tools, define how cinelerra will look and act in a not so
> distant future. With that goal in mind, make a reasonable plan to make
> it happen.
> 
To "do it right" people should decide what it will include and what is
needed to be a serious editor 2 or 3 years down the road.  (We've had
plenty of suggestions, as we all know,... maybe there'll be others).
Then a team must figure out how to make that happen.  With that secure
plan in place then implementation can start.

> 3. Set up a core development team
> 
> No secret here. Few people dedicated to make it happen, including an
> interface designer.
> 
> 4. Bounties
> 
> The core team can offer bounties for parts of the job they choose.
> This will attracat more developers to the community.
> 
I disagree.

> 5. Attract contributors
> 
> Mantain a nice looking website, a wiki, tools for easy translation of
> the interface and of the online documentation, etc. are goos
> strategies to attract people to contribute. Its also important to find
> people to package the software for different distributions.
> 
Fine a wiki for the developers and a web site are good ideas.
Developers may come and go and getting them up to speed on the project
requires documentation and possibly training.  Internal communications
is vital and every developer should be in almost constant contact with
the group to make sure everybody's on the same project and knows what is
going on.  This synergistic culture is vital to such a team.  It's in
everybody's interest that all the other team members understand the
project perfectly.  Time spent bringing a new member up to speed is not
wasted.  A developer's bulletin board is essential.  Well defined
standard interfaces for code is also essential and design changes must
be tracked and approved by the core development team.  Things like that
ensure a solid program.
I could get behind a project like that.

-- 
Regards,
Fred Williams


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[CinCVS] Fwd: I believe in cinelerra

[Richard Spindler]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Leo germani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Jan 18, 2008 7:53 PM
Subject: [estudiolivre] I believe in cinelerra
To: estudiolivre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Felipe Fonseca
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


What

Develop cinelerra as a professional free/libre video editing tool.

Why

Cinelerra is the most powerfull free software for video editting we
have nowadays. Although it has many resources and that it is far more
advanced than any other Open Source video software, its development is
very slow and has no sponsor.

Its main developer, Heroine Warrior, do not mantain a SVN or a mailing
list. The last official release was last july and there is no sign of
a upcoming version of cinelerra. They usually publish a new release
every six month or so but do it only for their own needs and do not
talk with the community much.

Few developers mantain a fork called "Community Version". All out of
volunteer work they mantain a SV a mailing list and an online wiki.
They also fix some bugs and add some features to the code.

 This desorganized development results in a mess. There is no official
stable release and package for the distributions, and cinelerra is now
known as very hard to install and unstable software (although it got
really better last year).

Also, first contact with cinelerra is usually disappointing because of
a not well resolved interface and also because of big flaws it has on
some funcionalities.

With all that said, it happens that we have a software that is, at the
same time, powerfull enough to do any kind of editing, but weak enough
to have very basic issues of usability.

And the feeling all advanced users have is: We are pretty close to
have high standard software!

To learn more about the mess, take a look at this page:
http://cv.cinelerra.org/about.php

Many of the actions described on this plan are already been done by
many people, but in a rather heroic way. If this people got motivated,
organized and _paid_, cinelerra would increase its quality
dramatically in a short period of time.

The Plan

1. Get the community together

The community of developers today is very small and spread, and
cinelerra has no road map.

First thing to do is gather this people to discuss about the future of
cinelerra, identify the main flaws and its solution, make a plan to
organize the place and set up for new features.

Cinelerra needs a project leader, an interface designer, and more
people with defined roles that should be choosen on this meeting.

Developers of other softwares are also welcome. Cinelerra is, so far,
the only video free editing video editing software with professional
approach, but it could share a lot of things with other software, such
as effects, for example, that shoul be usable in any video software,
just like we have LADSPA for audio. There is already a video effect
standar called Frei0r that cinelerra does not support.


2. Diagnostics

Cinelerra code is not very well documented, so few people have the
idea of how tuff is to deal with it. Second step is to see what must
be done so we can invite more people to colaborate with the code.
Documentation, refactoring, etc. It also has to work on the API so
other people can write plugins and effects.

In other words, lots of work that are a pain in the ass but has to be
done in order to advance properly. And passion has a limit. There must
be people getting money to work on that.


3. Make a plan

 Based on the diagnostics and on researches with users and other video
editing tools, define how cinelerra will look and act in a not so
distant future. With that goal in mind, make a reasonable plan to make
it happen.

3. Set up a core development team

No secret here. Few people dedicated to make it happen, including an
interface designer.

4. Bounties

The core team can offer bounties for parts of the job they choose.
This will attracat more developers to the community.

5. Attract contributors

Mantain a nice looking website, a wiki, tools for easy translation of
the interface and of the online documentation, etc. are goos
strategies to attract people to contribute. Its also important to find
people to package the software for different distributions.



--
leogermani.pirex.com.br
leogermani.estudiolivre.org

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